intresting comment by judge. its now a murder investigation?

[Autumn II]

yeah the whole lorazepam thing always give me the feeling murray knew the amounts he gave that night were not normal at all and would be conidered a cause of death incase no one knew about propofol . only the person who administered it knew that , and murray knew before anyone else lorazepam of all drugs found in mj's system would be considered a contributing factor .

Exactly. I think at first Murray was hoping others would think Michael gave HIMSELF a fatal dose. But when the propofol info came out, that then seemed impossible. I don't see how propofol could be self-administered except in a suicide attempt, and no one is suggesting that.

AEG took advantage of the whole situation , the man who asked the employees at the house to leave during the hour gap between going to hospital and announcing the news should be investigated . It is not very unrealistic to believe that AEG asked someone to get them the tapes of that day to see what went wrong with mj does not mean they were involved in his death .

At this point, we have no idea WHO took the tapes. I've not really heard it speculated that someone from AEG took them. But if they did, they need to turn them over to the LAPD as evidence! More likely it was someone already in the house, who took them, or someone who requested Security get rid of them, possibly.

and if i remember correctly , a boy who helped his father with the decoration at christmas time told a story about mj going upstairs and bringing a jewellery or money to give it to him , also Dr.Metzeger talked about asking mj for money during the months before his death for a boy who suffered from skin disease and he disappeared for minutes and went back with $ 200.000 .

I, too, remember this. I think it's very likely Michael kept a lot of cash in his house, for emergencies (and don't forget, he was in New York on 9/11? Having cash on-hand can be very important. . . if one has the means.)

guys we all remember chris carter, this asshole was the head of the security team at somepoint and when he was dismmissed he was caught in vegas stealing, the man was charged with 15 armed robbery . so it is not so hard to believe someone took advantage of the whole situation and took whatever money and jewellery there .

mj was a collector, i do believe he had there jewllery at least . we will have to wait and see .

Right. Anyone who has a lot of employees around, in the home, is vulnerable to theft. I hope that at least, Michael had documented the jewelry with photos, for insurance, making it difficult for anyone to sell the pieces.

I wonder what this new day will bring? Eventually, there will be closure?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

dont be so self-righteous , those ppl know more than you do

im stating facts. im sorry if u find that a problem. to many latoya has no credibility because of her past ontop of her running to the tabloids giving interviews and stating as fact that mjs kids arent his yet in the next breath saying prince has vitilgo. if u dont want to debate the issues stay out of the thread. if u wanna kiss the jacksons ass do it in the jacksons section

The key to all of this, and the important fact in the document (posted in the original post) is that the investigation no longer focuses on proving an ACCIDENTAL killing, as reflected in the language of the document.

True, the lethal levels of propofol didn't come out of nowhere. The use of the word "murder" now implies that the lethal levels were intentional. i.e. the word means the investigation (and searches) are now focusing on the idea that Murray killed Michael ON PURPOSE. "Homicide" can equal an accident. But not the term "murder." It means the LAPD do not think that Murray made a "mistake," but that there was some level of intent. Now, if there is a trial, it looks like what will be attempted to be proven is that Murray killed Michael ON PURPOSE, whether through motivation or in the heat of some kind of "moment." That is a huge difference.

There are lots of sites that discuss the difference in terminology, but I'm not going to post them all here. One thing is, a person can "react," kill someone in an instant fit of rage, and that can be a lesser form of killing. Or, one can plan and premeditate, and that is the most serious. These are not the same as accidentally hitting someone with your car and killing them (vehicular homicide). Intentionality, to a greater or lesser extent, must be there for a murder charge.

obviously we dont know which way they are going but as soundmind said b4 murder 2 also covers gross negligence with no intent..imo at this stage thats what they are looking at.so murder doesnt necess.. mean intent in cali.until theres real evidence that this was murder in the normal sense of the word i really cant go there yet

but the wording the judge used is very intresting to say the least. u just wish something would happen either way.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Toy is a drama queen, putting it nicely, and everything that flies out of her mouth should be taken with a grain of salt.

This is the same person who claims that Michael was fed drugs to manipulate him and control his moods. This is the same person that said Michael signed on to only 10 concerts, although his contract has a min of 18. She also claimed to have seen oxygen tanks line against the wall, even though the LAPD never said such a thing. She also claimed that Michael was completely cut off from his family, although he saw them only a mouth ago and saw his father 2 weeks before he died. Not to mention that the family went from saying that they didn't believe Michael had a will and when one showed up, Toy then claimed that Michael updated his will every 5 years.

Also, you have noticed she kind of shut up when the autopsy, TII, and the tox came out. Even the other siblings said Toy jumped the gun on the murder charge, given she said all these things before any solid facts came out.

Given all of this, Toy has no creditability what-so-ever.

Also, if you were a murderer and it was all plan, why the hell would you take money and jewelry that can be track back to your butt. If this was a well organize assassination, they would torch as little in that house as possible. Unless they are complete morons. Which every party in this case has to be to some degree to make this suppose murder worked the way that it has, especially for Murray's part.

well said.:clapping:

 

[MJJ7777]

known by who. media reports. tbh that info came from latoya.she was talking about things goin missing and imo she has no credibility.its a salicious/tabloidly thing to say. unless its offically documented from ppl who were in the house such as amir then imo theres no credibility to it.its just more speculation and innuendo

If I remember correctly on Larry King during MJ's funeral, One of the Chopra's said that back in the late 80's MJ carried a stash of cash with him in which he kept hidden in hotel bathrooms. He said this because MJ felt as if he owed him once for his help so he would go to the bathroom and come out with like 5,000 dollars in cash to give as a sign of his gratitude.

Not sure of Chopra's credible either but I've heard something of the likes of Latoya's allegations before.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

but until its proven in this case to be fact of it being there and being stolen imo its irrelvent. im only intrested in what is know as facts or as factual as we can get. not stories that go with ppls conspiracy therories.or come from unreliable sources ie latoya

 

[Ramona122003]

If I remember correctly on Larry King during MJ's funeral, One of the Chopra's said that back in the late 80's MJ carried a stash of cash with him in which he kept hidden in hotel bathrooms. He said this because MJ felt as if he owed him once for his help so he would go to the bathroom and come out with like 5,000 dollars in cash to give as a sign of his gratitude.

Not sure of Chopra's credible either but I've heard something of the likes of Latoya's allegations before.

He is not credible at all. This same person claimed that he helped Michael write songs like Heal the World using a thesaurus. Yet, Michael was too vain to give him writers credit. If you know how Michael usually write songs, you will know why this is a big pile of BS.

Given how much Heal the World sells, Chopra's son got rip off with that $5000.

Also, how would Toy know the exact amount of cash that was in that house. I somehow doubt that Michael would just tell her "I have $1 million of cash in my crib."

 

[elusive moonwalker]

i guess 1 mill exactly sounds more glamourous tham 30 K !

 

[Sirena]

Exactly. I think at first Murray was hoping others would think Michael gave HIMSELF a fatal dose. But when the propofol info came out, that then seemed impossible. I don't see how propofol could be self-administered except in a suicide attempt, and no one is suggesting that.

MMM-hmmm! There was a BIG PUSH in the media - with the whole "he did it to himself" narrative, to this day. Even when the forensic evidence totally contradicts this, they continue to push this - but not for long.

At this point, we have no idea WHO took the tapes. I've not really heard it speculated that someone from AEG took them. But if they did, they need to turn them over to the LAPD as evidence! More likely it was someone already in the house, who took them, or someone who requested Security get rid of them, possibly.

This is why this investigation has turned into a "murder" investigation. There are MULTIPLE people within Michael's inner circle who had motive & means to commit MURDER.

Yes, MURDER. They killed Michael on purpose. Someone who Michael trusted and was a part of his inner circle. The cops don't need to look far.

Now his children hold the keys to the kingdom - and I FEAR for them. I pray & pray for their safety & that MJ protects them.

Hoping that the tapes are at the LAPD are just that, hopes. I very much doubt it - unless there's a whistleblower somewhere. But who knows?

All I know is that too many people were in that house & too much time transpired before the medics & police came. Everyone should've gotten a search warrant, including his own family who took items from the home the day after he passed away & police were not done yet securing the scene.

I, too, remember this. I think it's very likely Michael kept a lot of cash in his house, for emergencies (and don't forget, he was in New York on 9/11? Having cash on-hand can be very important. . . if one has the means.)

I remember Chopra's son talking about it, that MJ had secret cash stashes everywhere & would have about 1 million or more in different pockets of the house.

Right. Anyone who has a lot of employees around, in the home, is vulnerable to theft. I hope that at least, Michael had documented the jewelry with photos, for insurance, making it difficult for anyone to sell the pieces.

I wonder what this new day will bring? Eventually, there will be closure?

As we all know, MJ is very careful about his stuff, so yeah, I'm more than sure he did insure his personal valuables.

 

[Autumn II]

At this point, it doesn't even MATTER what various fans wish to be true, think is true, believe is true, and so on. I am beginning to think that just maybe, the truth WILL come out. (Some have the heart for "investigations" and some don't, and that's ok.)

I'm beginning to have a little hope, now, for justice for Michael and closure for his children. I am having that hope for two, primary reasons (in addition to what I know through careful research). The first reason is actually the delay in charges. At first I thought this might be negligence on the part of the LAPD, but now I'm thinking it's more a case of a wide and careful investigation. Clearly, if it had been determined that this was simple negligence on the part of Murray, he would have been arrested by now. The second reason for some glimmer of hope is that the terminology was changed from "homicide" to "murder." I've researched very well the difference in the terms and the law in California, and the difference IS significant and points to more severe charges being filed. If it was simple negligence, like running over someone with a car accidentally, the search warrant would still say "homicide." But it doesn't. . . . .

 

[Ramona122003]

MMM-hmmm! There was a BIG PUSH in the media - with the whole "he did it to himself" narrative, to this day. Even when the forensic evidence totally contradicts this, they continue to push this - but not for long.





This is why this investigation has turned into a "murder" investigation. There are MULTIPLE people within Michael's inner circle who had motive & means to commit MURDER.

Yes, MURDER. They killed Michael on purpose. Someone who Michael trusted and was a part of his inner circle. The cops don't need to look far.

Now his children hold the keys to the kingdom - and I FEAR for them. I pray & pray for their safety & that MJ protects them.

Hoping that the tapes are at the LAPD are just that, hopes. I very much doubt it - unless there's a whistleblower somewhere. But who knows?

All I know is that too many people were in that house & too much time transpired before the medics & police came. Everyone should've gotten a search warrant, including his own family who took items from the home the day after he passed away & police were not done yet securing the scene.



I remember Chopra's son talking about it, that MJ had secret cash stashes everywhere & would have about 1 million or more in different pockets of the house.



As we all know, MJ is very careful about his stuff, so yeah, I'm more than sure he did insure his personal valuables.

There is a problem with your theory.

If they wanted to kill Michael for his money and his kids have it, you are now saying they will kill the kids. By Michael's own will, even if they did kill all his kids, the estate would go to T3, so they still wouldn't get anything. Also, I think if people began to drop dead in that family, I think people would get suspicious.

Also, if they wanted to get rid of all of the 'keys to the kingdom', I think they would had came up with a better plan that neutralize Michael's will since the mother was the one who was name as guardian, not one of the workers.

From your own theory to work, it has to be someone in Michael's own family since no outsider really benefices from killing Michael and all his kids. I am also certain that the Jackson family will keep any outside influence away from the kids. Afterall, if anyone is going to ride that gravy train, it is going to be them.

 

[twinklEE]

Latoya of all people knew nothing . her boyfriend telling police they found heroine in mj's bedroom is enough evidence all she cares about is creating scandals to be paid to confirm or deny .

Agree with you Soundmind, LaToya is a disgrace.
@Sirena What are you indicating?That his family killed him? Cuz besides of his family no body is able to benefit from the death, and if were indeed so they'd have to kill not just MJ3 but Tito3, so either prove it or back track.

 

[KayHey]

God this is like a CSI episode only worse.

Yes, it's so much worse because it's real. Michael was too good for this world. I still expect Murray to be arrested first, as he is the easiest one to catch. Then the whole bigger story could unfold from there. I won't be surprised if murder ends up being the final charge as looks highly likely judging by this document. Ultimately I'm a great believer in justice and Michael will receive justice too. It's hard to even contemplate other alternatives.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

another little thing i saw. geraldine hughes claims murray left the house and spent hours with his GF in the early hours of the 25th. no idea where she got the info and hasnt backed it up. maybe shes just taken it as fact as it was talked about abit a while back as a theory as to what happened

 

[Autumn II]

another little thing i saw. geraldine hughes claims murray left the house and spent hours with his GF in the early hours of the 25th. no idea where she got the info and hasnt backed it up. maybe shes just taken it as fact as it was talked about abit a while back as a theory as to what happened

Geraldine Hughes had very credible information about the 1993 allegations because she was a witness to the extortion attempt (as a secretary in Evan Chandler's attorney's office). She wrote a book about it that was highly believable. However, I highly doubt that just because of that, she has any "inside" information NOW, about Michael's death and surrounding events. Or at least, no more than the average tv-watcher?

I have a hunch that this is what happened, in the early morning hours of June 25, but have no "facts" to back that up, so it remains no more than a hunch. . . . . .

 

[elusive moonwalker]

yeah i agree vic.i think shes just attention seaking tbh

 

[Sirena]

There is a problem with your theory.

If they wanted to kill Michael for his money and his kids have it, you are now saying they will kill the kids. By Michael's own will, even if they did kill all his kids, the estate would go to T3, so they still wouldn't get anything. Also, I think if people began to drop dead in that family, I think people would get suspicious.

Also, if they wanted to get rid of all of the 'keys to the kingdom', I think they would had came up with a better plan that neutralize Michael's will since the mother was the one who was name as guardian, not one of the workers.

From your own theory to work, it has to be someone in Michael's own family since no outsider really benefices from killing Michael and all his kids. I am also certain that the Jackson family will keep any outside influence away from the kids. Afterall, if anyone is going to ride that gravy train, it is going to be them.

Agree with you Soundmind, LaToya is a disgrace.
@Sirena What are you indicating?That his family killed him? Cuz besides of his family no body is able to benefit from the death, and if were indeed so they'd have to kill not just MJ3 but Tito3, so either prove it or back track.

I never said that.

I said whoever killed Michael (and not just Dr. Murray) was from MJs inner circle, someone he trusted.

That could be an employee (or disgruntled ex-employee), a relative, a friend/guest ... ANYONE with close proximity and access.

I never ever implied death of the kids, GOD FORBID... I meant that to control the kids is having the keys to the MJ kingdom. That's why I worry about them. Look at all the drama that has ensued since MJ's died!

EDIT: Why? It's easier to manipulate a child versus a grown up, and Michael had enough of it.

Murder is MOTIVE & MEANS. And there was plenty of it close to MJ - unfortunately.

Did the guilty get what they wanted? I don't know that. But there were PLENTY of people who wanted to control MJs property, MJs finances, MJs personal life, MJs everything.

 

[Asedora]

im stating facts. im sorry if u find that a problem. to many latoya has no credibility because of her past ontop of her running to the tabloids giving interviews and stating as fact that mjs kids arent his yet in the next breath saying prince has vitilgo. if u dont want to debate the issues stay out of the thread. if u wanna kiss the jacksons ass do it in the jacksons section


.

I find your comment adressed to this person was very rude. There are many fans who respects Jacksons including La Toya. I wish mods will take care of this situation finally on this board. Why we have to go to Jackson's section to pay respect to this family? Ask this question yourself first. jacksons didn't kill Michael, but others did. When ppl will finally realize it?

 

[DARKLIGHTDAN]

hope they get the idiot/s! we need to know the truth!

 

[Sirena]

Yes, it's so much worse because it's real. Michael was too good for this world. I still expect Murray to be arrested first, as he is the easiest one to catch. Then the whole bigger story could unfold from there. I won't be surprised if murder ends up being the final charge as looks highly likely judging by this document. Ultimately I'm a great believer in justice and Michael will receive justice too. It's hard to even contemplate other alternatives.

Agree.

I'd rather wait for Murray to be charged with 2nd degree murder than arrest him now on involuntary manslaughter for medical malpractice.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

There are many fans who respects Jacksons including La Toya. I wish mods will take care of this situation finally on this board. Why we have to go to Jackson's section to pay respect to this family? Ask this question yourself first. jacksons didn't kill Michael, but others did. When ppl will finally realize it?

vbrep_register("2445392")

sorry but i call a spade a spade and respect is given not earned as mj said. i dont have respect for ppl who sell mj and his children out regardless that their last name is jackson.i call them out on their actions. there is nothing wrong with that, if u disagree thats fine its a discussion board.

That could be an employee (or disgruntled ex-employee), a relative, a friend/guest ... ANYONE with close proximity and access.

I never ever implied death of the kids, GOD FORBID... I meant that to control the kids is having the keys to the MJ kingdom. That's why I worry about them. Look at all the drama that has ensued since MJ's died!

EDIT: Why? It's easier to manipulate a child versus a grown up, and Michael had enough of it.

Murder is MOTIVE & MEANS. And there was plenty of it close to MJ - unfortunately.

Did the guilty get what they wanted? I don't know that. But there were PLENTY of people who wanted to control MJs property, MJs finances, MJs personal life, MJs everything.

vbrep_register("2445387")

the problem is though the kids dont control anything. the estate do ie branca/mclain/the kids lawyer and the judge with the final say on certain issues. so unless u are saying someone connected to any of those was invovled in killing mj who else is there? the kids wont have any form of power for many years possibly decades

 

[elusive moonwalker]

I'd rather wait for Murray to be charged with 2nd degree murder than arrest him now on involuntary manslaughter for medical malpractice

very true

 

[Ashtanga]

Could someone explain me this:


TMZ

http://img213.imageshack.us/i/026576882gdv00hoax.jpg/

Full document released by TMZ: http://www.aolcdn.com/tmz_documents/1120_conrad_murray_wm.pdf



ET

http://img697.imageshack.us/i/doc1o.jpg/

http://img268.imageshack.us/i/doc2v.jpg/



Well, ET released the document with stripes (Why???). TMZ reported without the stripes (Why???). The two documents are replete with errors that have begun in the first pages.

In the document released by TMZ, the place of the signing of "Valerie Aldair" is entered. In the document released by the ET is signed. Anyone who has read the entire document released by the ET, you know you have many errors, as well as also reported by TMZ.

Grace's last name is wrong, if she wants she can tell he had not talked with anyone. "Blanket" appears in the document and everyone knows that in a document that goes to court, it is incorrect to use nicknames or short names. It is wrong to use "Blanket" is a nickname that. It is wise to use the full name as the birth certificate. Well, the two documents published by ET and TMZ are full of errors.

And I wonder:

Which of these documents is true?

Or the two documents are false?

How can private documents of a case going to court to be disclosed in full by tabloids?

Who authorizes the disclosure: family, lawyers, court or anyone can get this informations... Who authorizes?


And this on page 1 of document:

Why do these tabloids appear in the document?

:smilerolleyes:

 

[Ramona122003]

I never said that.

I said whoever killed Michael (and not just Dr. Murray) was from MJs inner circle, someone he trusted.

That could be an employee (or disgruntled ex-employee), a relative, a friend/guest ... ANYONE with close proximity and access.

I never ever implied death of the kids, GOD FORBID... I meant that to control the kids is having the keys to the MJ kingdom. That's why I worry about them. Look at all the drama that has ensued since MJ's died!

EDIT: Why? It's easier to manipulate a child versus a grown up, and Michael had enough of it.

Murder is MOTIVE & MEANS. And there was plenty of it close to MJ - unfortunately.

Did the guilty get what they wanted? I don't know that. But there were PLENTY of people who wanted to control MJs property, MJs finances, MJs personal life, MJs everything.

There is another flaw.

The only people who has access to the kids is the family. So, unless this person is a very close friend of the family or an actually family member, they don't have any say or access to how the kids are raise.

And like I said before, the Jackson will make sure every penny of Michael's money stay inside the family, not some outside employee, friend, or cousin once removed.

Also, all the drama has been over scraps. All the real money is lock into the estate that not even the family can break into. So, the murders have to be really stupid not to take that into account. Since obviously they didn't know about the will or what the heck was written in it.


If this was a big murder plan, then it was poorly done and all involve are idiots.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

How can private documents of a case going to court to be disclosed in full by tabloids?

Who authorizes the disclosure: family, lawyers, court or anyone can get this informations... Who authorizes?

all documents are public record unless sealed by the court like the search warrants. the judge then decides whether to unseal them based on any arguments from the police etc

 

[Ashtanga]

all documents are public record unless sealed by the court like the search warrants. the judge then decides whether to unseal them based on any arguments from the police etc

The two documents released by TMZ and ET are different. One is signed and the other has just entered the name of "Valerie Aldair". Both are full of errors. Which of these documents released by TMZ and ET is the true? For me, one of these is false or both are false.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

i couldnt see the ET one it only came up really small.presume its the one i gave a link to?

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Why do these tabloids appear in the document?

:smilerolleyes:

because they were asking for the search warrant to be unsealed. thats what the judges ruling was about

 

[elusive moonwalker]

ones a copy ones the original as it says. and that why some of the info was redacted and some wasnt.the original release was redacted with the signature the other was a copy without being redacted and without the sig. i guess thats why?

 

[Sirena]

the problem is though the kids dont control anything. the estate do ie branca/mclain/the kids lawyer and the judge with the final say on certain issues. so unless u are saying someone connected to any of those was invovled in killing mj who else is there? the kids wont have any form of power for many years possibly decades

And how contentious was the Branca/McClain appointment? Huge. Thankfully the will & the judge presiding the case ruled in favor of protecting MJs kids & his will - which is legal contrary to some opinion.

So there are many, many ways to look at this.

 

[Sirena]

There is another flaw.

The only people who has access to the kids is the family. So, unless this person is a very close friend of the family or an actually family member, they don't have any say or access to how the kids are raise.

And like I said before, the Jackson will make sure every penny of Michael's money stay inside the family, not some outside employee, friend, or cousin once removed.

Also, all the drama has been over scraps. All the real money is lock into the estate that not even the family can break into. So, the murders have to be really stupid not to take that into account. Since obviously they didn't know about the will or what the heck was written in it.


If this was a big murder plan, then it was poorly done and all involve are idiots.

Then they are idiots.

And clearly motivated more by revenge/ill will, as well as $$$.

Barely anyonw knew that MJ had a will, that MJ locked everything down so that no one can touch his assets.

I truly believe there is much more to MJs death other than a lazy, reckless doctor. And it looks like the law enforcement source who said it's a "murder" investigation is giving us a heads up as to the same idea: MJ was killed on purpose.