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intresting comment by judge. its now a murder investigation?

  • Thread starter elusive moonwalker
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Well, I was talking about possible MURDER on this board since the beginning of July when I got registered here.
We were talking about it for MANY months in Investigative Unit as well. You do not have to be a professional or to work in LAPD to be able to see that MJ death looks more like a murder not an accident. There are so many evidences indicating that it was probably a murder: missing security tapes, no phone in the house, cutting off the family two weeks before he died, late 911 call, broken ribs from CPR like they say (but maybe not from CPR who knows), MJ was losing weight etc. Probably he was afraid to eat because he was thinking that they will poison him or whatever. It happened before with Michael when he was afraid to eat and got dehydrated. But that time somebody brought him to the Hospital which was sort of luck for him.
On the top of that they made TII movie. The tape which had to be used just to correct mistakes for the future performance appeared to be with a great quality which didn’t happen before and some fans me included find it strange too.
Michael himself in a few interviews was talking about the conspiracy against him.
I wonder why some fans after knowing all of it still chose not to think about even small possibility of MJ being killed. Now seeing this document some ppl get shocked.OMG! I think it is better to face the reality from the beginning instead getting shocked 5 months later.
No matter what I hope we will see a justice for Michael. God bless this pure soul.
 
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Sirena said:
Soundmind, don't know if you remember this - but the police did report that all the surveillance tapes from 1pm on forward are MISSING.

GONE.

They got Murray coming in - but everything that happened after Murray came in is MISSING.

Someone stole them - as well as 1 million dollars CASH, and millions of dollars in jewelry.
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sickening.


This is like a high class house invasion. Where the criminal comes to the door unassuming, "normal" non-threatening.Possibly even someone the homeowner knows. They come into the house under their guise, then they strike. Brutally, maliciously killing/torturing the homeowner. Once finished with that, they rob the victim of cash and valuables. Then they just leave like nothing happened.

These killers are nothing but thugs, and common thieves with BMWs and nice suits. Pimped out by the corporate big wigs who have been planning Michaels demise for years.

They think they will get away...whether next year or ten years from now they will get their just desserts...and How sweet it will taste.
 
What's more sad is that Michael knew & trusted the people who killed him.

This was no random nor accidental home invasion & murder.

They stole the jewels & cash to appear as if it were a robbery and keep something for themselves as a reward to a job completed.

And the tapes? GONE. Whoever has them if they still exist - are holding on to them for a reason, blackmail or a plea bargain if they get caught.

EDIT: This was a multi-person doing, not just Murray.


GenieBottle said:
sickening.


This is like a high class house invasion. Where the criminal comes to the door unassuming, "normal" non-threatening.Possibly even someone the homeowner knows. They come into the house under their guise, then they strike. Brutally, maliciously killing/torturing the homeowner. Once finished with that, they rob the victim of cash and valuables. Then they just leave like nothing happened.

These killers are nothing but thugs, and common thieves with BMWs and nice suits. Pimped out by the corporate big wigs who have been planning Michaels demise for years.

They think they will get away...whether next year or ten years from now they will get their just desserts...and How sweet it will taste.
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I figured that it was murder. It was obvious ever since we learned about the overdose.
 
GenieBottle said:
Hmm..Perhaps this should be moved to that forum?
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Oh please don't, no one goes there! Please keep it up here for at least another hour for our West Coasters to come home from work & chat here for a while...

PLEASE????????

EDIT: No one goes there - at least in this time of the evening.
 
no one goes there for obvious reasons , theories based on no evidence whatever , speculations and hearsay , no one believes Lee, no one believes the coroner, no one believes the police, no one believes the search warrants . anyone comes , throw a rumour as a fact , has no evidence to support it , always "reliable sources" are behind the " shocking revelations", everyone suffers from "selective memory disorder" . everyone who does not "believe" is in denial . you can't argue with people who base their stories on hearsay and no evidence at all . ohh and don't forget the cliche " search and investigate you will see what we are talking about "
 
Soundmind said:
no one goes there for obvious reasons , theories based on no evidence whatever , speculations and hearsay , no one believes Lee, no one believes the coroner, no one believes the police, no one believes the search warrants . anyone comes , throw a rumour as a fact , has no evidence to support it , always "reliable sources" are behind the " shocking revelations", everyone suffers from "selective memory disorder" . everyone who does not "believe" is in denial . you can't argue with people who base their stories on hearsay and no evidence at all . ohh and don't forget the cliche " search and investigate you will see what we are talking about "
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There is nothing to do with "speculations". There are so many facts some ppl do want to take seriously. I guess it is a bit hard to think a bit outside the box sometimes.
 
nena said:
how can this be a murder investigation if murray is allowed to go back to work... no murder suspect that is a doctor would be allowed to work patients unless their name is cleared.
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I think this is much bigger than we could all imagine. I have asked myself too many times if this so called cardiologist could be so stupid and make all these mistakes? It just doesn’t make sense. He could be stupid, involved in a bigger plan or he is maybe just the fall guy. I’m pretty shore MJ was murdered and I really hope everyone involved will get what they deserve. They don’t change it from a homicide to a murder investigation if they don’t have evidence.
 
jadore said:
I think this is much bigger than we could all imagine. I have asked myself too many times if this so called cardiologist could be so stupid and make all these mistakes? It just doesn’t make sense. He could be stupid, involved in a bigger plan or he is maybe just the fall guy. I’m pretty shore MJ was murdered and I really hope everyone involved will get what they deserve. They don’t change it from a homicide to a murder investigation if they don’t have evidence.
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So, Murray was not stupid enough to screw CPR, however, he was stupid enough to use hospital drugs that Michael couldn't possibly take himself to kill him in his own bed and he himself later admitted to. :smilerolleyes:

He also stupid enough not say anything about being a fall guy, but smart enough to hold a giant conspiracy to kill the most famous person in the world. Which he obviously won't get paid for because it would give the rest of the conspiracies away. :mello:

Okay, whatever works.
 
Soundmind said:
sorry, but murder is homicide .
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"Murder" and "homicide" are very different under the law, which is what, I'm sure, prompted the posting of this thread. The difference is EXTREMELY significant.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/73160/homicide_vs_murder_the_differences.html?cat=17

Homicide Vs. Murder: The Differences

October 23, 2006 by
Steve Thompson
http://www.associatedcontent.com/
Most people use the words “murder” and “homicide” interchangeably, but they are not the same. Although murder and homicide are both used to describe the act of killing another human being, the circumstances surrounding the charges are different.

The easiest way to describe the differences between murder and homicide is that homicide is the killing of another human being, while murder requires the intent to kill another human being. Homicide can be used to describe any death where another person is at fault, but there are mitigating circumstances that can influence the charge of homicide. When someone is convicted of murder, however, they are not only convicted of a homicide, but also the malicious intent to kill.

In the United States, we have terms like “justifiable homicide” and “non-criminal homicide” that are used to describe acts of homicide where there is no “mens rea” involved. The U.S. requires that the prosecution in a criminal trial prove both actus reus and mens rea in a criminal crime; the former translates as “guilty mind” and the latter refers to “guilty act”. Actus reus is simply the proof that a defendant committed a criminal act, while mens rea is a little more complicated. In order to prove mens rea, the prosecution must show that the defendant either had an intent to commit the crime or acted with criminal negligence.

With this in mind, you must understand that homicide is not always illegal, while murder is always illegal. For example, judicial homicide involves the use of deadly force by a law enforcement officer who must kill in order to save his life or the lives of others. Although judicial homicide is usually investigated by the Internal Affairs Bureau (IAB), criminal charges are not brought against the officer unless there is evidence that deadly force was unnecessary.

 
i think what soundmind is saying is that the word homicide can mean murder aswell and any other way of killing someone.but the wording in the court doc is now using murder instead of any other definition of homicide ie accident or negligence or manslaughter. thats the difference

anyway re the thread. tbh i didnt post it for it to turn into a investigational unit type thread with conspriacy theories running amock.re the million $ in cash thing why would mj have that amount of money left about in a house. its not believable at all. u know how much cash that physically is. it sounds like nothing more than some tabloid creation
 
known by who. media reports. tbh that info came from latoya.she was talking about things goin missing and imo she has no credibility.its a salicious/tabloidly thing to say. unless its offically documented from ppl who were in the house such as amir then imo theres no credibility to it.its just more speculation and innuendo
 
GenieBottle said:
sickening.


This is like a high class house invasion. Where the criminal comes to the door unassuming, "normal" non-threatening.Possibly even someone the homeowner knows. They come into the house under their guise, then they strike. Brutally, maliciously killing/torturing the homeowner. Once finished with that, they rob the victim of cash and valuables. Then they just leave like nothing happened.

These killers are nothing but thugs, and common thieves with BMWs and nice suits. Pimped out by the corporate big wigs who have been planning Michaels demise for years.

They think they will get away...whether next year or ten years from now they will get their just desserts...and How sweet it will taste.
Click to expand...



Could not have said it better myself! Thank You!
 
elusive moonwalker said:
known by who. media reports. tbh that info came from latoya.she was talking about things goin missing and imo she has no credibility.its a salicious/tabloidly thing to say. unless its offically documented from ppl who were in the house such as amir then imo theres no credibility to it.its just more speculation and innuendo
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I disagree with the commet made about Latoya not having credibility, however I do understand completely where you are coming from. I think, and this is just my humbled opinion: She has now earned her credibility in my book.

She is the ONLY Jackson sibling who is sticking to the same story of Michael being murdered and the murder was for his catalogue. She and Janet reportedly were the first family members the day after his murder to go in the home. I don't put it pass the crooks and
murderes to have also resorted to theft after their deed was done. People have stolen from him for years, even in life, MJ's own employees have been known to steal from his house, we have court documents( i think) saying such.

In order to find out what really happened to our Michael, I can't completely dismiss her claims.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
cause he never used it for 6 weeks.thats his defence to go with i was weaning him off cause he was addicted. the amounts found as others have said wouldnt have last even a month
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This is my belief as well. I never believed Murray's story about the 6 wks or the "weening him off "crap!
 
elusive moonwalker said:
i think what soundmind is saying is that the word homicide can mean murder aswell and any other way of killing someone.but the wording in the court doc is now using murder instead of any other definition of homicide ie accident or negligence or manslaughter. thats the difference

anyway re the thread. tbh i didnt post it for it to turn into a investigational unit type thread with conspriacy theories running amock.re the million $ in cash thing why would mj have that amount of money left about in a house. its not believable at all. u know how much cash that physically is. it sounds like nothing more than some tabloid creation
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elusive you owe us the nonbelievers an apology -_-
 
elusive moonwalker said:
i think what soundmind is saying is that the word homicide can mean murder aswell and any other way of killing someone.but the wording in the court doc is now using murder instead of any other definition of homicide ie accident or negligence or manslaughter. thats the difference

anyway re the thread. tbh i didnt post it for it to turn into a investigational unit type thread with conspriacy theories running amock.re the million $ in cash thing why would mj have that amount of money left about in a house. its not believable at all. u know how much cash that physically is. it sounds like nothing more than some tabloid creation
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The difference is that under the law, and in terms of the wording of the document, "murder" means a killing that was INTENTIONAL. I.e., someone died and someone else INTENDED to kill him/peformed actions, intentionally, that resulted in a death. What this means is that it's now much more serious for Murray.

That is VERY different than someone being charged with "homicide." This represents a shift in the legal language, that reveals something of law-enforcement thinking now. It gives me hope that they really will nail Murray. If you read, everyone, what I posted about this, it says "murder" is ALWAYS criminal and the charges are "criminal" (much more than negligence because it's INTENTIONAL), whereas "homicide" might include simple negligence. This is a very important shift.

Whether or not money was taken from the house -- we have no way of knowing, for sure.

Sure, someone can move it to the I.U., if it's bothersome to some. Doesn't change a thing, though, and what is. . is what is. This legal process finally seems to be going in a productive direction in terms of justice for Michael, and the arrestS will come about soon enough.
 
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vic no doubt this is now much more serious . intentional or not intentional we don't really know. second degree murder does include unintentonal killing , but the lethal levels of propofol did not come out of no where .
 
Soundmind said:
vic no doubt this is now much more serious . intentional or not intentional we don't really know. second degree murder does include unintentonal killing , but the lethal levels of propofol did not come out of no where .
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The key to all of this, and the important fact in the document (posted in the original post) is that the investigation no longer focuses on proving an ACCIDENTAL killing, as reflected in the language of the document.

True, the lethal levels of propofol didn't come out of nowhere. The use of the word "murder" now implies that the lethal levels were intentional. i.e. the word means the investigation (and searches) are now focusing on the idea that Murray killed Michael ON PURPOSE. "Homicide" can equal an accident. But not the term "murder." It means the LAPD do not think that Murray made a "mistake," but that there was some level of intent. Now, if there is a trial, it looks like what will be attempted to be proven is that Murray killed Michael ON PURPOSE, whether through motivation or in the heat of some kind of "moment." That is a huge difference.

There are lots of sites that discuss the difference in terminology, but I'm not going to post them all here. One thing is, a person can "react," kill someone in an instant fit of rage, and that can be a lesser form of killing. Or, one can plan and premeditate, and that is the most serious. These are not the same as accidentally hitting someone with your car and killing them (vehicular homicide). Intentionality, to a greater or lesser extent, must be there for a murder charge.
 
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As far as the "investigations" go? People have a right to their opinions, but I do think respect should be given to those who have done extensive research and whose opinions are very well-informed?

If this thread bothers people, sure, move it to the I.U. Or just read elsewhere? I, for one, find the change in terminology to be very positive in the sense that it would seem to indicate the LAPD are looking DEEPLY into this case. That could explain the time they've taken to bring charges, and makes it more likely that Michael will receive the justice he deserves. A simple negligence charge most likely wouldn't have taken this long.

Carry on,

Vic
 
yeah the whole lorazepam thing always give me the feeling murray knew the amounts he gave that night were not normal at all and would be conidered a cause of death incase no one knew about propofol . only the person who administered it knew that , and murray knew before anyone else lorazepam of all drugs found in mj's system would be considered a contributing factor .

AEG took advantage of the whole situation , the man who asked the employees at the house to leave during the hour gap between going to hospital and announcing the news should be investigated . It is not very unrealistic to believe that AEG asked someone to get them the tapes of that day to see what went wrong with mj does not mean they were involved in his death .

and if i remember correctly , a boy who helped his father with the decoration at christmas time told a story about mj going upstairs and bringing a jewellery or money to give it to him , also Dr.Metzeger talked about asking mj for money during the months before his death for a boy who suffered from skin disease and he disappeared for minutes and went back with $ 200.000 .

guys we all remember chris carter, this asshole was the head of the security team at somepoint and when he was dismmissed he was caught in vegas stealing, the man was charged with 15 armed robbery . so it is not so hard to believe someone took advantage of the whole situation and took whatever money and jewellery there .

mj was a collector, i do believe he had there jewllery at least . we will have to wait and see .
 
elusive moonwalker said:
known by who. media reports. tbh that info came from latoya.she was talking about things goin missing and imo she has no credibility.its a salicious/tabloidly thing to say. unless its offically documented from ppl who were in the house such as amir then imo theres no credibility to it.its just more speculation and innuendo
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dont be so self-righteous , those ppl know more than you do
 
Latoya of all people knew nothing . her boyfriend telling police they found heroine in mj's bedroom is enough evidence all she cares about is creating scandals to be paid to confirm or deny .
 
Moddie777 said:
I disagree with the commet made about Latoya not having credibility, however I do understand completely where you are coming from. I think, and this is just my humbled opinion: She has now earned her credibility in my book.

She is the ONLY Jackson sibling who is sticking to the same story of Michael being murdered and the murder was for his catalogue. She and Janet reportedly were the first family members the day after his murder to go in the home. I don't put it pass the crooks and
murderes to have also resorted to theft after their deed was done. People have stolen from him for years, even in life, MJ's own employees have been known to steal from his house, we have court documents( i think) saying such.

In order to find out what really happened to our Michael, I can't completely dismiss her claims.
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Toy is a drama queen, putting it nicely, and everything that flies out of her mouth should be taken with a grain of salt.

This is the same person who claims that Michael was fed drugs to manipulate him and control his moods. This is the same person that said Michael signed on to only 10 concerts, although his contract has a min of 18. She also claimed to have seen oxygen tanks line against the wall, even though the LAPD never said such a thing. She also claimed that Michael was completely cut off from his family, although he saw them only a mouth ago and saw his father 2 weeks before he died. Not to mention that the family went from saying that they didn't believe Michael had a will and when one showed up, Toy then claimed that Michael updated his will every 5 years.

Also, you have noticed she kind of shut up when the autopsy, TII, and the tox came out. Even the other siblings said Toy jumped the gun on the murder charge, given she said all these things before any solid facts came out.

Given all of this, Toy has no creditability what-so-ever.

Also, if you were a murderer and it was all plan, why the hell would you take money and jewelry that can be track back to your butt. If this was a well organize assassination, they would torch as little in that house as possible. Unless they are complete morons. Which every party in this case has to be to some degree to make this suppose murder worked the way that it has, especially for Murray's part.
 
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