I think the family is giving Murray his defense

[ReneeM]

MJ died long before the paramedics arrived , Murray's actions that morning before and after Mike's death are what going to get him convicted of second degree murder .


the prosecution and defense calling MJ an addict is a minor issue to them , the bigger issue will be how the defense is going to explain Murray's actions or lack of actions after he found MJ in dire need of help .

the whole case now is about whether murray tried to help or pushed mj over the edge that morning . their will be no debate whether he was an addict or not . Both of them have already agreed on calling him a 'healthy junkie'.

I agree that he died long before paramedics arrived.

 

[Bo G]

It is actually criminally negligent manslaughter, not just manslaughter. Unless they can prove malice or intent, they will have a heck of a time proven second degree murder. Pumping him full of drugs cannot be proven as intent. The DA would be fools to go for a big what if charge and lost the case then go for a sure thing.

Look at my other post to learn more about criminally negligent manslaughter.

Ramona, the material in that other very helpful post of yours indicated, I thought, that INTENT was NOT needed to go for 2nd degree, but "malice." And California has a surprisingly broad definition of "malice" that includes woeful disregard for human life or something like that. This was the surprising point in your post I asked you about. Can you look at that further and react?

 

[Sirena]

It is actually criminally negligent manslaughter, not just manslaughter. Unless they can prove malice or intent, they will have a heck of a time proven second degree murder. Pumping him full of drugs cannot be proven as intent. The DA would be fools to go for a big what if charge and lost the case then go for a sure thing.

Look at my other post to learn more about criminally negligent manslaughter.

The amount found in MJ, which can kill and DID kill, can be used as "intent." The DA can easily claim that no doctor would pump that many drugs in a person of MJs weight & height unless they meant to kill them.

 

[terrell]

This is why I do not want to see that picture that ET show with the people working on Michael. Dead or not, I hate that picture.

 

[Ramona122003]

Agree with your statement, but I think the DA does want to take this to trial, because of what you said "glorify themselves" - also I'd add to that "cleaning up LA County's image in prosecuting celebrity cases."

Yes, airtight case building. Agree. Since the LAPD is taking so much time to investigate, it could be seen as a means to force a plea deal. The lead detective, Orlando Martinez, requested that all documents be sealed until mid-January 2010.

But then again, playing devil's advocate here, it could also mean that the DA won't entertain a plea deal and wants to make sure that the case is so tight, that they could throw multiple charges at Murray and they all stick.

Remember, Murray has the DEA on him as well. The LA County DA is probably working parallel with them on this, which explains the delay.

Everyone is offer a plea-bargain, no matter if the DA wants to take it to trail. That is why they always asked "how do you plea?" You cannot force someone to court who is ready to confess their crimes. If that was the case, all those serial killer would of all have trails, because what DA wouldn't want to be glorified in sending a dangerous man to jail.

People who get plea-bargains because they admit their guilt instead of the state forcing the truth out of them in exchange for a lighter sentence. That is how the court systems work. About ninety percent of all cases in the US are resolved using plea-bargains.

 

[Sirena]

This is why I do not want to see that picture that ET show with the people working on Michael. Dead or not, I hate that picture.

Whatever you are talking about sounds too scary & hurtful and I'll be careful to even click on their link if I run across it.

 

[Soundmind]

It is actually criminally negligent manslaughter, not just manslaughter. Unless they can prove malice or intent, they will have a heck of a time proven second degree murder. Pumping him full of drugs cannot be proven as intent. The DA would be fools to go for a big what if charge and lost the case then go for a sure thing.

Look at my other post to learn more about criminally negligent manslaughter.

Murder: Second degree
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.

 

[ReneeM]

Pascal, quit badgering Renee with wrongful questioning of her motives. Whether you agree with her or not, she obviously does not have a TINI agenda... .. just look at her quote upthread where she OBJECTS to TINI and says she considers them helpful to Murray:



I really dislike the "debating" tactic of unfairly questioning motives.

Thank you Bo G.

 

[Bo G]

Ramona, this is the part of your post that blew me away:

"In many jurisdictions such as California, malice may be found if gross negligence amounts to wilful or depraved indifference to human life. In such a case, the wrongdoer may be guilty of second degree murder."

If your citation is correct, it would seem they could make this case.

 

[Ramona122003]

The amount found in MJ, which can kill and DID kill, can be used as "intent." The DA can easily claim that no doctor would pump that many drugs in a person of MJs weight & height unless they meant to kill them.

You need more than just the amount to prove malice or intent. For a jury to convict of second degree murder, you need solid evident.

Also Bo G, you are right about intent, but it does help in a second degree murder charge. It is hard to prove malice and intent from a case like this and as long as there is reasonable doubt, no jury will move on it. They could just see the large amount as the doctor being stupid because he left the freaking room and didn't know what he was doing.

 

[Sirena]

Everyone is offer a plea-bargain, no matter if the DA wants to take it to trail. That is why they always asked "how do you plea?" You cannot force someone to court who is ready to confess their crimes. If that was the case, all those serial killer would of all have trails, because what DA wouldn't want to be glorified in sending a dangerous man to jail.

People who get plea-bargains because they admit their guilt instead of the state forcing the truth out of them in exchange for a lighter sentence. That is how the court systems work. About ninety percent of all cases in the US are resolved using plea-bargains.

You're confusing the "plea" at the arraignment, with a "plea bargain."

A "plea" in an arraignment is to give the defendant the chance to state their culpability or innocence.

A "plea bargain" is the DAs decision to make. They have a choice whether to offer the defendant a lesser charge in exchange for their "guilty plea."

 

[Ramona122003]

Murder: Second degree
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.

Criminally negligent manslaughter


It occurs where death results from serious negligence, or, in some jurisdictions, serious recklessness. A high degree of negligence is required to warrant criminal liability. A related concept is that of wilful blindness, which is where a defendant intentionally puts himself in a position where he will be unaware of facts which would render him liable.
Criminally negligent manslaughter occurs where there is an omission to act when there is a duty to do so, or a failure to perform a duty owed, which leads to a death. The existence of the duty is essential because the law does not impose criminal liability for a failure to act unless a specific duty is owed to the victim. It is most common in the case of professionals who are grossly negligent in the course of their employment. An example is where a doctor fails to notice a patient's oxygen supply has disconnected and the patient dies (R v Adomako).

 

[Ramona122003]

You're confusing the "plea" at the arraignment, with a "plea bargain."

A "plea" in an arraignment is to give the defendant the chance to state their culpability or innocence.

A "plea bargain" is the DAs decision to make. They have a choice whether to offer the defendant a lesser charge in exchange for their "guilty plea."

Once again, everyone is offer a plea-bargain. Michael was offer a plea-bargain when the DA wanted to hang him. Although, I did confuse the plea with the plea-bargain.

The point being that Murray may want to keep this out of court and offer what really happen in exchange for a plea-bargain. Chances are the DA will take it.

I would be really surprise if this case make it to court.

 

[Sirena]

You need more than just the amount to prove malice or intent. For a jury to convict of second degree murder, you need solid evident.

Also Bo G, you are right about intent, but it does help in a second degree murder charge. It is hard to prove malice and intent from a case like this and as long as there is reasonable doubt, no jury will move on it. They could just see the large amount as the doctor being stupid because he left the freaking room and didn't know what he was doing.

Insane amounts of propofol that can kill an elephant (let alone a 5'9" man at 136 pounds) not evidence enough for the DA to fight for 2nd degree murder?

Even if not intentional, the amount administered is enough to get the 15-life imprisonment charge.

Your post on criminally negligent manslaughter leaves that door open for 2nd degree murder.

 

[Sirena]

murder: Second degree
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
second-degree murder is ordinarily defined as 1) an intentional killing that is not premeditated or planned, nor committed in a reasonable "heat of passion" or 2) a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.

exactly!

 

[Ramona122003]

Insane amounts of propofol that can kill an elephant (let alone a 5'9" man at 136 pounds) not evidence enough for the DA to fight for 2nd degree murder?

Even if not intentional, the amount administered is enough to get the 15-life imprisonment charge.

Your post on criminally negligent manslaughter leaves that door open for 2nd degree murder.

We do not know how much he gave him. The amount has never been release. All we know it was alot for the corona to even be able to find it. So, to say it was enough to kill an elephants had no bases.

Also, amount is not enough to prove malice. You can be a train professional at given these types of drugs and give way too much if you are not careful. The only thing it really proves is stupidity, which is not really a crime.

For second degree murder to stick, you need beyond a reasonable doubt and amount is not beyond a reasonable. No jury will convict on second degree murder because Murray gave him alot of drugs. You need more evident than that.

 

[Sirena]

Once again, everyone is offer a plea-bargain. Michael was offer a plea-bargain when the DA wanted to hang him. Although, I did confuse the plea with the plea-bargain.

The point being that Murray may want to keep this out of court and offer what really happen in exchange for a plea-bargain. Chances are the DA will take it.

I would be really surprise if this case make it to court.

Of course Murray wants to keep this out of court. And there is only a 50/50 chance that the DA will or will not take the case to court, it all depends on the charges.

But here are 2 plea bargain scenarios which could be possible:

If the DA offers a plea bargain to Murray that he confesses to murder in the 2nd degree with a maximum of 20 years, or risk going to trial and get a life sentence, what do you think Murray would do? Go to trial.

If the DA offers a plea bargain to Murray that he confesses to criminally negligent manslaughter and do a maximum of 25 years, or risk being charged for 2nd degree murder with a life sentence, what do you think Murray would do? Go to trial.

So it's a 50/50 split.

 

[Bo G]

Ramona, this is the part of your post that blew me away:

"In many jurisdictions such as California, malice may be found if gross negligence amounts to wilful or depraved indifference to human life. In such a case, the wrongdoer may be guilty of second degree murder."

If your citation is correct, it would seem they could make this case.

You need more than just the amount to prove malice or intent. For a jury to convict of second degree murder, you need solid evident.

Also Bo G, you are right about intent, but it does help in a second degree murder charge. It is hard to prove malice and intent from a case like this and as long as there is reasonable doubt, no jury will move on it. They could just see the large amount as the doctor being stupid because he left the freaking room and didn't know what he was doing.

Well, yeah, of course evidence of intent would help stunningly, but I think we agree that's 99.999% assuredly not on anyone's radar and there's no risk of prosecution trying that route and losing everything. (I rather doubt LAPD is hunting down an assassin's contract. :smilerolleyes: But do genuinely believe they surely would if they had the slightest suspicion... whether they "like" MJ or not).

Which leaves the operating phrase "depraved indifference to human life" as a possible route to showing malice for a 2nd degree murder charge. I honestly think they've got a shot at that, and I hope they are working hard to prepare exactly this case. But yes, if they don't have the evidence, it's not worth losing everything to go for it.

Propofol in any amount seems enough to make the case to me. But I can see how a really large amount would seem even more "indifferently depraved." (Future law books will have Murray's portrait next to that phrase to illustrate it),

I wonder if there's some way to package a set of charges so that the jury can choose to fall back to a lesser charge if they can't get behind the greater?

 

[Sirena]

We do not know how much he gave him. The amount has never been release. All we know it was alot for the corona to even be able to find it. So, to say it was enough to kill an elephants had no bases.

Also, amount is not enough to prove malice. You can be a train professional at given these types of drugs and give way too much if you are not careful. The only thing it really proves is stupidity, which is not really a crime.

For second degree murder to stick, you need beyond a reasonable doubt and amount is not beyond a reasonable. No jury will convict on second degree murder because Murray gave him alot of drugs. You need more evident than that.

I kindly disagree. But you know that already .

 

[Ramona122003]

Of course Murray wants to keep this out of court. And there is only a 50/50 chance that the DA will or will not take the case to court, it all depends on the charges.

But here are 2 plea bargain scenarios which could be possible:

If the DA offers a plea bargain to Murray that he confesses to murder in the 2nd degree with a maximum of 20 years, or risk going to trial and get a life sentence, what do you think Murray would do? Go to trial.

If the DA offers a plea bargain to Murray that he confesses to criminally negligent manslaughter and do a maximum of 25 years, or risk being charged for 2nd degree murder with a life sentence, what do you think Murray would do? Go to trial.

So it's a 50/50 split.

You do not do 25 years for criminally negligent manslaughter. I think the max is 8 to 10 years, but I am too lazy to check right now.

Also if they offer him a plea-bargain it maybe on the lines of going to trail for second degree murder or taking a lesser manslaughter charge.

Even if he does get charge with second degree murder, there is noway he is getting life in prison. That is just wishful thinking.

 

[Sirena]

Well, yeah, of course evidence of intent would help stunningly, but I think we agree that's 99.999% assuredly not on anyone's radar and there's no risk of prosecution trying that route.

Which leaves the operating phrase "depraved indifference to human life" as a possible route to showing malice for a 2nd degree murder charge. I honestly think they've got a shot at that, and I hope they are working hard to prepare exactly this case. But yes, if they don't have the evidence, it's not worth losing everything to go for it.

I agree & hope they are doing that too.

Propofol in any amount seems enough to make the case to me. But I can see how an really large amount would seem even more "indifferently depraved."

I wonder if there's some way to package a set of charges so that the jury can choose to fall back to a lesser charge if they can't get behind the greater?

A defendant can be charged with more than one "charge" - sometimes a defendant can be guilty of one charge, but not the other.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

from mjjuk


They've already managed to make him look worse than Whitney Houston and she was a hardcore crackhead -- and this with the great help of his own family and Janet just put the final nail.

Why are they doing this? Just look at all the headlines on Google now about her interview:

Janet Jackson: Michael Was in Denial Over Drug Use -- People Magazine

Janet Jackson Says Michael May Have Been 'In Denial' About Drug Problems -- MTV

Janet Jackson Confirms Family Staged Drug Interventions for Michael -- US Magazine

Janet Jackson: Michael in denial over drug problem -- AP

Janet Jackson: We Tried to Save Michael From Drug Use -- American Superstar Magazine

Janet Jackson: We Staged an Intervention for Michael -- Hollyscoop

and many many more like these.

Well, thank you Jackson family, I'm sure Michael appreciates all this great effort you've put in depicting him as a raving druggie.

 

[Sirena]

You do not do 25 years for criminally negligent manslaughter. I think the max is 8 to 10 years, but I am too lazy to check right now.

It was just a rhetorical question to demonstrate how the case could go to trial, or not, based on a plea bargain agreement - if the DA chooses to entertain one.

Also if they offer him a plea-bargain it maybe on the lines of going to trail for second degree murder or taking a lesser manslaughter charge.

Even if he does get charge with second degree murder, there is noway he is getting life in prison. That is just wishful thinking.

The DA can recommend the amount of time served but only the judge can determine the sentence. And the maximum for 2nd degree is life. And please allow me some wishful thinking on that, because Murray is a danger to society. MJ is not the first patient Murray's killed.

 

[Ramona122003]

Well, yeah, of course evidence of intent would help stunningly, but I think we agree that's 99.999% assuredly not on anyone's radar and there's no risk of prosecution trying that route and losing everything. I rather doubt LAPD is hunting down an assassin's contract. But do genuinely believe they surely would if they had the slightest suspicion... whether they "like" MJ or not).

Which leaves the operating phrase "depraved indifference to human life" as a possible route to showing malice for a 2nd degree murder charge. I honestly think they've got a shot at that, and I hope they are working hard to prepare exactly this case. But yes, if they don't have the evidence, it's not worth losing everything to go for it.

Propofol in any amount seems enough to make the case to me. But I can see how an really large amount would seem even more "indifferently depraved."

I wonder if there's some way to package a set of charges so that the jury can choose to fall back to a lesser charge if they can't get behind the greater?

I see where you are coming from and I mostly agree except on this point.

It is enough for you to convince on amount because you are bias. You are far from impartial to the case, which is why you would never make it in a jury pool. A jury has to be neutral and open to all possibilities in a case. They cannot just walk into the court room and have already decide on someone's guilt or innocents.

If it did not work that way, Michael would had been in jail. They also made sure to keep any fans out of the jury.

 

[Sirena]

from mjjuk


They've already managed to make him look worse than Whitney Houston and she was a hardcore crackhead -- and this with the great help of his own family and Janet just put the final nail.

Why are they doing this? Just look at all the headlines on Google now about her interview:

Janet Jackson: Michael Was in Denial Over Drug Use -- People Magazine

Janet Jackson Says Michael May Have Been 'In Denial' About Drug Problems -- MTV

Janet Jackson Confirms Family Staged Drug Interventions for Michael -- US Magazine

Janet Jackson: Michael in denial over drug problem -- AP

Janet Jackson: We Tried to Save Michael From Drug Use -- American Superstar Magazine

Janet Jackson: We Staged an Intervention for Michael -- Hollyscoop

and many many more like these.

Well, thank you Jackson family, I'm sure Michael appreciates all this great effort you've put in depicting him as a raving druggie.

Ditto.

 

[Ramona122003]

from mjjuk


They've already managed to make him look worse than Whitney Houston and she was a hardcore crackhead -- and this with the great help of his own family and Janet just put the final nail.

Why are they doing this? Just look at all the headlines on Google now about her interview:

Janet Jackson: Michael Was in Denial Over Drug Use -- People Magazine

Janet Jackson Says Michael May Have Been 'In Denial' About Drug Problems -- MTV

Janet Jackson Confirms Family Staged Drug Interventions for Michael -- US Magazine

Janet Jackson: Michael in denial over drug problem -- AP

Janet Jackson: We Tried to Save Michael From Drug Use -- American Superstar Magazine

Janet Jackson: We Staged an Intervention for Michael -- Hollyscoop

and many many more like these.

Well, thank you Jackson family, I'm sure Michael appreciates all this great effort you've put in depicting him as a raving druggie.

I just want to point out that none of them said he was an addict. They all simple said he had drug problems, which is partial true. So, I do not see the big deal.

 

[Sirena]

I just want to point out that none of them said he was an addict. They all simple said he had drug problems, which is partial true. So, I do not see the big deal.

But they sure as heck IMPLY it.

 

[Pascal09]

from mjjuk


They've already managed to make him look worse than Whitney Houston and she was a hardcore crackhead -- and this with the great help of his own family and Janet just put the final nail.

Why are they doing this? Just look at all the headlines on Google now about her interview:

Janet Jackson: Michael Was in Denial Over Drug Use -- People Magazine

Janet Jackson Says Michael May Have Been 'In Denial' About Drug Problems -- MTV

Janet Jackson Confirms Family Staged Drug Interventions for Michael -- US Magazine

Janet Jackson: Michael in denial over drug problem -- AP

Janet Jackson: We Tried to Save Michael From Drug Use -- American Superstar Magazine

Janet Jackson: We Staged an Intervention for Michael -- Hollyscoop

and many many more like these.

Well, thank you Jackson family, I'm sure Michael appreciates all this great effort you've put in depicting him as a raving druggie.

His family is his own worst enemy. The problem people believe Janet, unlike LaToya. They will take her words as gospel although she never lived with the adult MJ after the trial. That's why janet words are more potent than any of her siblings. Even if Katherine should come out know to contracdict what Janet said; nobody will believe her. Some will claim she she is trying to protect her son, blah blah ...

 

[Ramona122003]

It was just a rhetorical question to demonstrate how the case could go to trial, or not, based on a plea bargain agreement - if the DA chooses to entertain one.



The DA can recommend the amount of time served but only the judge can determine the sentence. And the maximum for 2nd degree is life. And please allow me some wishful thinking on that, because Murray is a danger to society. MJ is not the first patient Murray's killed.

Murray is hardly a danger to society, otherwise they would had arrested him by now for being dangerous to the public. He will never practice again, so him serving jail time will not effect that in either way.

Also, the patience that Murray killed was an honest accident that even the best doctor can do. He was still allow to practice and he didn't no do any jail time, so it was not criminal.

You may hate Murray, but please keep the facts straights on such issues.

 

[Bo G]

please allow me some wishful thinking on that...

...