I think the family is giving Murray his defense

Once again, human error will happen no matter how good or hard you try to avoid it. Tell me, do you do you job 100% or 1000% correctly every time. I am going to guess no, but then you are going to say that you are not a doctor or pilot.

Unless you are going to tell me that doctors and pilots are super human who are beyond the limits of humans and can do their job perfect under any circumstances, it does not work.

The are still a person and they make mistakes, even if a life is on the line. So, stop acting like they are some kind of machine that does everything perfectly.

This is true. No person is perfect. But again, I think what's going to work against Murray isn't so much a matter of expertise but a serious lack of judgment, not just on the day Michael died, but consistently. Why? His own lawyer or PR person said (and I paraphrase) that he left the room for a few minutes, not only on the day MJ died, but that Murray had done so on prior days, and nothing bad happened so he didn't see leaving MJ unattended as a problem. :mello:

Basically, what that tells me is that this doctor didn't just have poor judgment on the day MJ died, but he had poor judgment period. He honestly thought it was okay to leave Michael alone with propofol flowing into his veins? NO expert will agree with this. Not one worth their salt or degree. They may disagree about whether Murray did CPR correctly or not or what the time of death may have been, or whether he reacted appropriately after the fact, but I can guarantee not ONE will say he used proper medical judgment in walking out of that room and leaving Michael alone. And no one on that jury will take pity on him ESPECIALLY if Nurse Lee takes the stand and says that being monitored was the ONE thing Michael believed would keep him safe. And there's not an expert who probably won't agree with that. Propofol should not kill someone if they are being properly monitored. IF something goes wrong, someone should be instantly present to assist and begin procedures to save a life. Everytime Murray left that room, he not only failed as a doctor but he failed Michael who was depending on Murray to monitor him. The clock was basically ticking and on June 25th, the worst that could happen happened.

He's toast!
 
This is true. No person is perfect. But again, I think what's going to work against Murray isn't so much a matter of expertise but a serious lack of judgment, not just on the day Michael died, but consistently. Why? His own lawyer or PR person said (and I paraphrase) that he left the room for a few minutes, not only on the day MJ died, but that Murray had done so on prior days, and nothing bad happened so he didn't see leaving MJ unattended as a problem. :mello:

Basically, what that tells me is that this doctor didn't just have poor judgment on the day MJ died, but he had poor judgment period. He honestly thought it was okay to leave Michael alone with propofol flowing into his veins? NO expert will agree with this. Not one worth their salt or degree. They may disagree about whether Murray did CPR correctly or not or what the time of death may have been, or whether he reacted appropriately after the fact, but I can guarantee not ONE will say he used proper medical judgment in walking out of that room and leaving Michael alone. And no one on that jury will take pity on him ESPECIALLY if Nurse Lee takes the stand and says that being monitored was the ONE thing Michael believed would keep him safe. And there's not an expert who probably won't agree with that. Propofol should not kill someone if they are being properly monitored. IF something goes wrong, someone should be instantly present to assist and begin procedures to save a life. Everytime Murray left that room, he not only failed as a doctor but he failed Michael who was depending on Murray to monitor him. The clock was basically ticking and on June 25th, the worst that could happen happened.

He's toast!


I was not talking about what he did with Michael. I was discussion with someone's else how Murray killed a patient during surgery when accidentally puncture their heart.

Someone was using that as cause to why Murray was dangerous to society and I was arguing otherwise.

I am in no shape or form defended him on what he has done. That was just plain stupidity.
 
from mjjuk


They've already managed to make him look worse than Whitney Houston and she was a hardcore crackhead -- and this with the great help of his own family and Janet just put the final nail.

Why are they doing this? Just look at all the headlines on Google now about her interview:

Janet Jackson: Michael Was in Denial Over Drug Use -- People Magazine

Janet Jackson Says Michael May Have Been 'In Denial' About Drug Problems -- MTV

Janet Jackson Confirms Family Staged Drug Interventions for Michael -- US Magazine

Janet Jackson: Michael in denial over drug problem -- AP

Janet Jackson: We Tried to Save Michael From Drug Use -- American Superstar Magazine

Janet Jackson: We Staged an Intervention for Michael -- Hollyscoop

and many many more like these.

Well, thank you Jackson family, I'm sure Michael appreciates all this great effort you've put in depicting him as a raving druggie.


Murray doesn't need a lawyer he's got Janet Jackson.

Say a prayer that the members of the Jackson Family
Shut the Hell Up.:angel:
 
Janet did not add anything new that we already didn't here, so this is not new. Whoever wants to believe that Michael was an addict has already made up their minds long before Janet talked.

I must be weird... I don't have my mind made up on this one way or the other because I don't feel I have "enough data." So I will continue to assess any new data that comes in... in this case from Janet.

I have no strong opinion on whether the family should speak openly about their impressions of Michael. But I kind of lean toward being sympathetic to them.

There's probably not a simple answer to "Dependence: Yea or Nay?" This conversation needs to be very nuanced. Based on the admittedly spotty data the public has so far, here's my "ten-point theory on MJ's drug use." ANY of it could turn out to be wrong. Please don't hurt me.

***Highly Speculative Opinion Alert ***

1) MJ was probably chronically dependent on sedatives for insomnia, and sometimes for daytime anxiety, most of his life since the 1993 case. (Probably mostly benzodiazepines. This excludes Propofol (not a sedative but an anesthetic).

2) This ratcheted up during two or more eras, including at the end, to Propofol. He'd probably been using Propofol for several weeks at the end. Using Propofol to sleep, even for a few weeks, constitutes a period of "Propofol dependency."

3) So Evan Chandler indirectly killed Michael Jackson.

4) No one, no one, no one but the administering doctor(s) ever in MJ's entire life had the slightest clue about MJ's Propofol use. It is so wildly unimaginable that anyone trying to read him -- including family and managers -- would guess wrong and misunderstand him in many ways.

5) In his final era, evidence does not point to his use of sedatives for daytime anxiety. This means he probably felt pretty relaxed and confident most of the time, which makes me happy. Apparently gumchewing was getting him through the days well enough! No pills were found in his stomach because he only needed drugs at night, where he was getting everything he needed by IV.

6) In the past, he's been dependent on painkillers (narcotics) occasionally to treat pain from the burn and other conditions. This appears to have ratcheted up to use for mood elevation due to Chandler.

7) In his final era, evidence suggests he had beaten narcotics dependency! He was surely in pain at times, and wished for a mood lift at times, but apparently this was within manageable limits and he wasa feeling pretty darn good most of the time. I"m very, very proud of him for this.

8) Chronic use of Propofol and/or sedatives to sleep is not sustainable for anyone's health. And it surely created occasionally visible daytime side effects. Family members saw this, guessed correctly at a drug dependence, but undoubtedly incorrectly at the cause and type. They probably incorrectly thought he was on daytime painkillers and sedatives An understandable and forgivable error, and not terribly significant. Either way an intervention was needed right up to the end. I'm glad to hear the attempts were made, that there's still that much intra-family support.

9) Entering his final era, MJ had read all about Propofol and its dangers. His dependency on sedatives had created a drug tolerance that rendered these no longer insufficiently reliable for him to get him through the show. This dependence he did not feel he could beat, sadly. He convinced himself it was his only choice and he could handle it. This defines dependence. He had to work pretty hard and very, very carefully to find a doctor who would administer Propofol.

10) There's always a predator ready to pounce on such vulnerable prey. MJ's actions are completely independent of Murray's criminal behavior, and Murray should be imprisoned for "indifferently depraved" homicide.
 
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It does has something to do with it because this is a doctor who's been careless before.

Surgery is risky, but you expect the person conducting it to be doing their A+ 1000% best. This is why doctors are respected & paid very well for what they do.

Murray failed on both accounts - and do more lives have to be risked? I think not.

And your relatives have a definite case for a malpractice suit. The doctor IS at fault if they botch up a procedure. It's their job to do it right. Period.

I can't find the post where Murray caused a patients death. Can someone help me there?
 
I must be weird... I don't have my mind made up on this one way or the other because I don't feel I have "enough data." So I will continue to assess any new data that comes in... in this case from Janet.

I have no strong opinion on whether the family should speak openly about their impressions of Michael. But I kind of lean toward being sympathetic to them.

There's probably not a simple answer to "Dependence: Yea or Nay?" This conversation needs to be very nuanced. Based on the admittedly spotty data the public has so far, here's my "ten-point theory on MJ's drug use." ANY of it could turn out to be wrong. Please don't hurt me.

***Highly Speculative Opinion Alert ***

1) MJ was probably chronically dependent on sedatives for insomnia, and sometimes for daytime anxiety, most of his life since the 1993 case. (Probably mostly benzodiazepines. This excludes Propofol (not a sedative but an anesthetic).

2) This ratcheted up during two or more eras, including at the end, to Propofol. He'd probably been using Propofol for several weeks at the end. Using Propofol to sleep, even for a few weeks, constitutes a period of "Propofol dependency."

3) So Evan Chandler indirectly killed Michael Jackson.

4) No one, no one, no one but the administering doctor(s) ever in MJ's entire life had the slightest clue about MJ's Propofol use. It is so wildly unimaginable that anyone trying to read him -- including family and managers -- would guess wrong and misunderstand him in many ways.

5) In his final era, evidence does not point to his use of sedatives for daytime anxiety. This means he probably felt pretty relaxed and confident most of the time, which makes me happy. Apparently gumchewing was getting him through the days well enough! No pills were found in his stomach because he only needed drugs at night, where he was getting everything he needed by IV.

6) In the past, he's been dependent on painkillers (narcotics) occasionally to treat pain from the burn and other conditions. This appears to have ratcheted up to use for mood elevation due to Chandler.

7) In his final era, evidence suggests he had beaten narcotics dependency! He was surely in pain at times, and wished for a mood lift at times, but apparently this was within manageable limits and he wasa feeling pretty darn good most of the time. I"m very, very proud of him for this.

8) Chronic use of Propofol and/or sedatives to sleep is not sustainable for anyone's health. And it surely created occasionally visible daytime side effects. Family members saw this, guessed correctly at a drug dependence, but undoubtedly incorrectly at the cause and type. They probably incorrectly thought he was on daytime painkillers and sedatives An understandable and forgivable error, and not terribly significant. Either way an intervention was needed right up to the end. I'm glad to hear the attempts were made, that there's still that much intra-family support.

9) Entering his final era, MJ had read all about Propofol and its dangers. His dependency on sedatives had created a drug tolerance that rendered these no longer insufficiently reliable for him to get him through the show. This dependence he did not feel he could beat, sadly. He convinced himself it was his only choice and he could handle it. This defines dependence. He had to work pretty ard and very, very carefully to find a doctor who would administer Propofol.

10) There's always a predator ready to pounce on such vulnerable prey. MJ's actions are completely independent of Murray's criminal behavior, and Murray should be imprisoned for "indifferently depraved" homicide.

Excellent summation, I especially agree with points 9 and 10. It's very possible he built up a tolerance for sedatives even though he currently was not abusing narcotics.

The tragic part is there was no around him who could provide any alternatives besides propofol. Insomnia is a serious problem that many people take lightly. He dealt with insomnia most of his life and it appears that no one ever helped him deal with it.
 
I'm sure the family of the patient who's heart was punctured by Dr. Murray during surgery would disagree with that.

A doctor with a history of dead patients because of his negligence is more than enough to not just revoke his license, but put him/her behind bars.

One death is more than enough proof.

Thank you, but now I don't see where he 'punctured' someones heart while doing surgery. He isn't a surgeon so now I would like to know how he is practicing surgery.
 
I agree. The family should shut up about drug interventions or MJ being an addict. At least wait until the investigation or trial (if there ever is one) is over. It's really not helping.
 
Thank you, but now I don't see where he 'punctured' someones heart while doing surgery. He isn't a surgeon so now I would like to know how he is practicing surgery.

Dr. Conrad Murray -- the doctor who was at Michael Jackson's home the day he died -- was once under investigation for an alleged botched surgery.

In 2007, Dr. Murray drained fluid from the heart of a 67-year-old Las Vegas patient. The patient died after surgery. According to the coroner's investigation report, his wife was told by one of the docs her husband's heart was punctured during the procedure -- so she complained to the coroner's office.

The investigation report confirms that, during Dr. Murray's surgery, the patient suffered a puncture to the right ventricle of his heart, which was eventually listed as one of four causes of death on the autopsy report.

We spoke to the family, who told us they wanted to file a malpractice suit but it was too expensive -- in part because pursuing that kind of legal action requires testimony from another medical expert, and that costs a lot of money.

Altogether, the suit proved to be too much trouble and the family stayed quiet ... until now.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/09/jackson-doc-was-under-investigation-before/#ixzz0XL15VkHk
 
Dr. Conrad Murray -- the doctor who was at Michael Jackson's home the day he died -- was once under investigation for an alleged botched surgery.

In 2007, Dr. Murray drained fluid from the heart of a 67-year-old Las Vegas patient. The patient died after surgery. According to the coroner's investigation report, his wife was told by one of the docs her husband's heart was punctured during the procedure -- so she complained to the coroner's office.

The investigation report confirms that, during Dr. Murray's surgery, the patient suffered a puncture to the right ventricle of his heart, which was eventually listed as one of four causes of death on the autopsy report.

We spoke to the family, who told us they wanted to file a malpractice suit but it was too expensive -- in part because pursuing that kind of legal action requires testimony from another medical expert, and that costs a lot of money.

Altogether, the suit proved to be too much trouble and the family stayed quiet ... until now.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/09/jackson-doc-was-under-investigation-before/#ixzz0XL15VkHk

I do not believe this to be 100% true. Murray is not a surgeon. He is a cardiologist. He would not be performing surgery. "Something" is wrong with that story and it can't be right. Also, if you read it it says "one of the docs said..." That doesn't mean Murray did it and to be fair, there are some procedures that are risky and you take that risk going under the knife and this is not always the doctors fault. In any case, he is not a surgeon so I doubt he would have been performing surgery.
 
I'm going to have to do some looking for a link, but in several places regarding CM's medical background it was stated that he was an interventional cardiologist and did his specialty training at Loma Linda University/Hospital in California. Loma Linda is the biggest training facility amongst the numerous Seventh Day Adventist hospitals. Only reason I know that for fact is because I've worked for the Adventist hospital organization for 25+ years. I can't determine if he was still actively in the interventional radiology portion of cardiology or became strictly a cardiologist and relinquished the other subfield.

Doing a cardiocentesis could and most likely would have been done by an interventional (radiology) cardiologist.

And I'm not a defender of CM, but the possibility of puncturing the heart during that type of procedure does exist.
 
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Murray doesn't need a lawyer he's got Janet Jackson.

Say a prayer that the members of the Jackson Family
Shut the Hell Up.:angel:

We have to pray for Janet not having a new CD at the same time of the trial.

She would love to testify in court to promote his album.
 
I'm sure the family of the patient who's heart was punctured by Dr. Murray during surgery would disagree with that.

A doctor with a history of dead patients because of his negligence is more than enough to not just revoke his license, but put him/her behind bars.

One death is more than enough proof.

you know, I've often wondered in the last three months as to if Michael knew about that unfortunate patient of Murray's.

either way, this was a really, really bad week. from the horrendously twisted articles about Chandler's suicide such as these (EDIT: see link below) to the Janet-revelations... I really feel for Michael. even in death, they won't leave him alone. it's no wonder he stayed the heck away from almost everyone (including his family) in the last few years. his children were all he had :cry:

*Removed tabloid link. No tabs allowed*
 
I do not believe this to be 100% true. Murray is not a surgeon. He is a cardiologist. He would not be performing surgery. "Something" is wrong with that story and it can't be right. Also, if you read it it says "one of the docs said..." That doesn't mean Murray did it and to be fair, there are some procedures that are risky and you take that risk going under the knife and this is not always the doctors fault. In any case, he is not a surgeon so I doubt he would have been performing surgery.

Draining fluid is not a surgical procedure where you have to be in an operating room. A resident can drain fluid.
 
I'm going to have to do some looking for a link, but in several places regarding CM's medical background it was stated that he was an interventional cardiologist and did his specialty training at Loma Linda University/Hospital in California. Loma Linda is the biggest training facility amongst the numerous Seventh Day Adventist hospitals. Only reason I know that for fact is because I've worked for the Adventist hospital organization for 25+ years. I can't determine if he was still actively in the interventional radiology portion of cardiology or became strictly a cardiologist and relinquished the the other subfield.

Doing a cardiocentesis could and most likely would have been done by an interventional (radiology) cardiologist.

And I'm not a defender of CM, but the possibility of puncturing the heart during that type of procedure does exist.

Ok, this makes more sense. Still, it isn't fair to assume he is a bad cardiologist. HOWEVER, he stinks at being an anesthesiologist.
 
It technically is a surgery. A surgery is just an invasive procedure using a surgical instrument.

This is 'splitting hairs' because a large medical center would consider this a procedure.
 
I do not believe this to be 100% true. Murray is not a surgeon. He is a cardiologist. He would not be performing surgery. "Something" is wrong with that story and it can't be right. Also, if you read it it says "one of the docs said..." That doesn't mean Murray did it and to be fair, there are some procedures that are risky and you take that risk going under the knife and this is not always the doctors fault. In any case, he is not a surgeon so I doubt he would have been performing surgery.

Some (if not most) cardiologists perform surgery.
 
you know, I've often wondered in the last three months as to if Michael knew about that unfortunate patient of Murray's.

either way, this was a really, really bad week. from the horrendously twisted articles about Chandler's suicide such as these (EDIT: see link below) to the Janet-revelations... I really feel for Michael. even in death, they won't leave him alone. it's no wonder he stayed the heck away from almost everyone (including his family) in the last few years. his children were all he had :cry:

*Removed tabloid link. No tabs allowed*

You are certainly right, Indranee. It's been a F-ed up week - but here we are, loyal MJ fans, the only ones sticking up for him - yet again.
 
Some (if not most) cardiologists perform surgery.

Surgeons perform surgery. A Heart Surgeon performs surgery on patients.

"Surgical Procedures" are not the same as 'surgery'. I work in a large medical center in New York as a Registered Nurse. I specialize in Cardiology. We don't consider a Cardiac Catheterization "Surgery", nor do we consider needle aspirations as "Surgery". This is what I meant by splitting hairs. I said it because Conrad Murray is NOT a cardiothoracic surgeon. He is a cardiologist and its not the same thing.
 
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