I think the family is giving Murray his defense

[MrsMJ2007]

Janet Jackson Interview

I watched the interview last night on ABC. Albeit it was short and edited quite a bit. I will say that I've read through many of the comments here and there are valid points on both sides. Yes, it is true that in the early 90s Michael went into rehab for addiction to prescription painkillers. He himself said this in a statement that was broadcast around the globe. Liz Taylor was there by his side when he went into a rehab facility. This of course was during the 1993 child molestation allegations. Michael did struggle with addiction to painkillers on and off through the 90s. As to whether or not there was continued problems, I have not seen nor heard real proof other than family members saying he went into rehab in 2002.
What disappointed me about Janet's answer was that she did not elaborate as to what time period these events may have occurred. She did not state what the initial cause was that led to his overuse of painkillers or who she thought may have started him out on it [Hint: Arnold Klein]. I do agree that the family's constant bantering about MJs drug use real or alleged, DOES harm his reputation and DOES harm the prosecutions case against Dr. Murray and others who supplied Michael with any drugs. However, there were only sedatives found in his body. It was ultimately those that caused his demise. No painkillers or other drugs were found, legal or otherwise. Michael was also very healthy for a man of 50. Was he out of it at times? We don't really know and that remains to be seen.
What disappoints me about the Jackson family is if Michael was in such a serious state as they claim, why did no one file a petition to have the children removed from his custody? If as they claim he could be irrational and uncontrollable, wouldn't that mean the children were in danger? That to me should have been first and foremost.

 

[Sirena]

Thanks to janet, TINI group and the media have been rearmed with the drug addiction nonsense.

There is no greater threat to MJ's legacy and reputation than his own family; and some wander why Branca & McClain (total strangers to some degree) were left in charge?

I agree.

 

[Bo G]

A suggestion in this debate on both sides is that we lean toward using the word "dependence" rather than "addiction." It's considered, in medical circles, more precise and less judgmental. Both are easily googled via Wikipedia.

 

[iluv2drem]

I am really disappointed in the double standard Janet and the family seems to have placed on them by some here. Let me repeat "SOME". If Janet said the family thought he had no real problem with medication there would be accusations of the family doing nothing or being in denial themselves. Did she not say she holds Murray responsible? It's both and. Murray is not excused but it is true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I am sure Michael understood he had a dependency/addiction but probably thought he had it under control. Remember she was Michael's closest sibling and he'd be shaking his head in serious disappointment with these attacks on her.

 

[Ramona122003]

Reasonable doubt in that Murray doesn't deserve a 2nd degree murder charge because he was a poor doctor desperate for money and afraid of being fired by his drug addict boss who demanded more & more propofol.

And this case IS a bad case - Janet & Latoya went in with moving trucks to remove items from the home before the LAPD went in to secure the scene. Security video is still missing. 1 million dollars in cash is missing. Millions worth in jewelry is missing.

The strongest evidence against Murray is the coroner's report - enough to give him life imprisonment if the DA is aggressive enough based on the amount of propofol and other drugs found in the report which goes above & beyond gross negligence.

The evident is Michael's body. It tells everything that happened that night, regardless who went into that house. So even if they went into the house, the area where he died was not the crime scene, it was the body.

Also, I have already said why Murray would not be charge with second degree murder, so this is a moot point. For reference, however, Kevorkian was charge with second degree murder, not manslaughter. So, feeling sorry for the person did nothing for him.

 

[Bo G]

Re: Janet Jackson Interview

What disappoints me about the Jackson family is if Michael was in such a serious state at they claim, why did no one file a petition to have the children removed from his custody?

I have more experience than I hope to ever have again with family and friends with substance dependence issues. But I have to point out it's not black and white like this, and we don't want to unfairly generalize about people with this problem. A person can be struggling with a dependence, yet still be considered by all a better parenting option than turning children over to strangers.

Also, I was stunned when a family member, who'd been a major alcoholic and lifetime multiple-chemical-abuser over decades, kept proving excellent physical health with no organ damage, including liver. I'd actually kinda hoped for some somewhat scary results that would show him he couldn't keep on this way. But he was very big into a healthy lifestyle in all other respects, and apparently was able to pull it off physically and occupationally. He'd found a weird equilibrium that "worked" for decades. I learned this isn't that unusual, and that his body had recovered from some particularly bad things he'd quit doing. (Obviously there are many ways this did NOT "work.")

 

[ReneeM]

Thanks to janet, TINI group and the media have been rearmed with the drug addiction nonesense.

The police have independantly aquired a lot of information to show that Michael had a drug dependency. Brian Oxman went on TV the might Michael died and talked about his drug addiction. Deepak Chopra told Larry King about Michael's drug addiction.

It's not nonsense to say he had a drug dependency at some point in his life. The autopsy shows that a drug dependency didn't kill him. He had no other drugs in his system besides what Murray gave him.

Michael had problems with insomnia for years and past drug use can make insomnia worse.

 

[Sirena]

Re: Janet Jackson Interview

What disappointed me about Janet's answer was that she did not elaborate as to what time period these events may have occurred. She did not state what the initial cause was that led to his overuse of painkillers or who she thought may have started him out on it [Hint: Arnold Klein].

This is why the defense can call her up as a witness to corroborate that MJ was an out of control, demanding addict. They can play back the same interview aired yesterday in the courtroom and ask her to acknowledge on record and under oath that the family tried to stage multiple interventions to no success.

The upside is that the prosecution can rip this apart by using the coroner's report against her statement.

But we'll see.

I do agree that the family's constant bantering about MJs drug use real or alleged, DOES harm his reputation and DOES harm the prosecutions case against Dr. Murray and others who supplied Michael with any drugs.

Agree 1,000,000% - this only strengthens the "I'm a poor doctor with no money who's afraid of his boss" scenario.

However, there were only sedatives found in his body. It was ultimately those that caused his demise. No painkillers or other drugs were found, legal or otherwise. Michael was also very healthy for a man of 50. Was he out of it at times? We don't really know and that remains to be seen.
What disappoints me about the Jackson family is if Michael was in such a serious state at they claim, why did no one file a petition to have the children removed from his custody? If as they claim he could be irrational and uncontrollable, wouldn't that mean the children were in danger? That to me should have been first and foremost.

Exactly - why didn't they do a what Jamie Spears did for Britney if MJ was in such a bad state? It's all bullsh*t.

 

[BillieJean84]

Not just Murray's defense but if hes arrested before or by New Years as I have read & put to trial he may be found not guilty because a jury will consider the whole fact.

 

[Kingofpop4ever3000]

No decent doctor would give Michael, let alone anybody else, something that had the potential to kill them within minutes without any monitering equipment. Just because a patient (allegedly) wants something and is paying a doctor bucks up the wazoo, doesn't give the doctor the right to act like a zombie-type yes man with no mind of his own and give the patient what he or she desires. And that also applies even if Michael demanded or begged for it. Michael would never have gotten any of that Propofol if that were true because no one who cared more for him than his money would be willing to get it for him in the first place. So this still falls on Murray because he's the one that gave Michael this stuff on the day he died. And he has admitted that. Murray could have quit or allowed himself to be fired if Michael was really giving him a hard time about the stuff like people keep claiming. At least Murray would have come out of this without the cops and feds on his butt. And I would say the same thing if it was some other doctor and this happened. But Murray didn't leave that house that day with Michael being alive. Michael wasn't perfect. But it's not really about him anymore IMO. It's about how a doctor, of all people, could let something like this happen. Murray showed a major and deadly lapse in judgement on his part the minute he put that needle into Michael. Murray had a choice. And made the wrong one.

 

[Sirena]

I am really disappointed in the double standard Janet and the family seems to have placed on them by some here. Let me repeat "SOME". If Janet said the family thought he had no real problem with medication there would be accusations of the family doing nothing or being in denial themselves. Did she not say she holds Murray responsible? It's both and. Murray is not excused but it is true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I am sure Michael understood he had a dependency/addiction but probably thought he had it under control. Remember she was Michael's closest sibling and he'd be shaking his head in serious disappointment with these attacks on her.

We are not attacking Janet. No one is.

What I (and some here) are saying is that the statements made by the Jackson family only help Murray.

 

[Ramona122003]

A suggestion in this debate on both sides is that we lean toward using the word "dependence" rather than "addiction." It's considered, in medical circles, more precise and less judgmental. Both are easily googled via Wikipedia.

He was not drug depended because only drugs found by Murray was found in his body. If he was talking any kind of drug before he arrived, it would had shown in the tox. Drugs stays in your body for weeks some times months. Which is why people ask for a drug test before you take a job.

Also, the drug he was talking cannot be a dependence. Experts had said over and over again that this drugs cannot be habit forming because it leaves the body quickly. That is why they are scratching their heads when Murray said he tried to wean Michael off the drug. Because you do not wean someone off, you just stop giving it to them.

 

[Moonlight]

We know that he became a person who needed to use an anesthesia to go to sleep each night

Hi lifeismagical, I found your post based on your own work experiences interesting, but I chose to highlight this part specifically, because as I read it, it lept out at me, that actually,
I don't know that.
Unless I stayed in Michael's room each night with him, or have access to security video tapes (but even those could have been tampered with) so I can't possibly know whether that is true or not.

~ I've read an affidavit where it's stated that Murray said he had been administering Propofol to Michael every night for the previous six weeks, but there again this same affidavit's timeline was disputed by Murray's lawyer; and who knows whether the statements given to the police were true in any case?
Also, various other people have made statements about things that seem to contradict this nightly routine too.

The whole thread is interesting, the whole topic area,I don't know the true facts.
Overall, there's just been so much so far that has been misleading or contradictory, I just hope when more comes to light, it will make more sense to me than it does right now.

 

[Pascal09]

The police have independantly aquired a lot of information to show that Michael had a drug dependency. Brian Oxman went on TV the might Michael died and talked about his drug addiction. Deepak Chopra told Larry King about Michael's drug addiction.

It's not nonsense to say he had a drug dependency at some point in his life. The autopsy shows that a drug dependency didn't kill him. He had no other drugs in his system besides what Murray gave him.

Michael had problems with insomnia for years and past drug use can make insomnia worse.

So what if he had a dependecy in the past. That has got nothing to do with the present (i.e. before he died). Apparently he used propofol during HIStory tour, but yet I know you are happy to watch segments of that tour on Youtube; hipocrisy. Propofol didn't did kill him then. It's like the say "gun don't kill people, people kill people". In the same way "propofol/ so called addiction didn't kill Mj, Murray killed MJ". If there had been a competent doctor, Mj would have been alive. That's the fact; stop blaming him. They guy bears no responsibility.

 

[Bo G]

We are not attacking Janet. No one is.

lol

(not lol-ing AT you, Sirena, but you may not be aware of some other exchanges...)

 

[Sirena]

He was not drug depended because only drugs found by Murray was found in his body. If he was talking any kind of drug before he arrived, it would had shown in the tox. Drugs stays in your body for weeks some times months. Which is why people ask for a drug test before you take a job.

Also, the drug he was talking cannot be a dependence. Experts had said over and over again that this drugs cannot be habit forming because it leaves the body quickly. That is why they are scratching their heads when Murray said he tried to wean Michael off the drug. Because you do not wean someone off, you just stop giving it to them.

There is such a thing such as "propofol addiction" (see as good article here: http://www.farleycenter.com/resources/articles/2009-07-07/spotlight-diprivan-and-propofol-addiction) which can be detected in the brain.

That we know of, the coroner's report did not confirm this to be true of MJ.

 

[lovelymj]

Looks like Katherine is the only one who hasn't spoken, and I think the rest should keep their mouths shut, until Murray goes to trial. Words are so bad, then can end up hurting alot of people, if they are not calculated. On the other side, addicted or not, that not the issue, Anna Nicole Smith was far more addicted and her doctors are rotting in prision.

 

[Ramona122003]

So what if he had a dependecy in the past. That has got nothing to do with the present (i.e. before he died). Apparently he used propofol during HIStory tour, but yet I know you are happy to watch segments of that tour on Youtube; hipocrisy. Propofol didn't did kill him then. It's like the say "gun don't kill people, people kill people". In the same way "propofol/ so called addiction didn't kill Mj, Murray killed MJ". If there had been a competent doctor, Mj would have been alive. That's the fact; stop blaming him. They guy bears no responsibility.

Good point,

Also, he could not been so depended on this drug that he never used it again after the tour was over. This fact alone would be enough to slam Murray.

Michael obviously was not so hung out or in denial if he had enough sense to have a doctor give him a drug. A person who is drug depend tends to take things into their own hand.

 

[Sirena]

lol

(not lol-ing AT you, Sirena, but you may not be aware of some other exchanges...)

I'm really not getting that at all. I think we're keeping the discourse civil & rational.

 

[Bo G]

...stop blaming him....

The poster did not "blame" MJ. Stop blaming people for "blaming."

 

[Soundmind]

at this point the family's credibility is very much damaged , whether they say he was addict or not , no one is gonna listen to them.

we learned one thing from 2005, the jury is going to base their verdict on what they hear in that court room .

I do believe the prosecution more than the defense is going to open their case by saying :" the victim was a junkie but that does not justify what this doctor did ".

they the prosecution and the defense will bash him and paint him as an addict , unstable person the prosecution will say murray was a doctor and he should have known better , the defense will say Murray tried but jackson insisted and if he turned him down , mj would have hired another doctor to do the same thing, the problem was not with murray, murray was their at the wrong time and what happened was bound to happen sooner or later whether it was murray or someone else , here comes Janet , Tito, Randy ,Rowe and joe stories about interventions, they will be called to help support this defense , regardless whether it was murray or not mj was in denial and he was bound to die from drugs at anytime .

in the search warrant the detectives made up their minds , they seized evidence in relation to charges related to prescribing to an addict .

the DA won't lose sleep over calling Micahel Jackson a junkie in the court room . the detectives said they were told by the family and media sources jackson was doctor shopping . Latoya's manager even handed marijuana to the coroner's investigator and called it heroine .


MJ will be called junkie by both the prosecution and the defense , MJ will be put on trial , they have already created a new medical term "Healthy addict" especially for MJ , eventhough there is no addict with healthy organs , no way someone abusing drugs like MJ reportedly did would have healthy organs .

so prepare yourselves , if Janet is not willing to step for her brother , do you even believe the DA will do such a thing ? NO .

 

[Pascal09]

I Mj tired of people using the "MJ is no God" line when they are called out. Nobody claims MJ is god, even including himself. During Bashirs documentary, MJ was asked how he felt when people accuses him of all those staffs. MJ responded by saying: "I'm only Human". Mj doesn't need to be a drug addict in other to be human.

 

[Ramona122003]

There is such a thing such as "propofol addiction" (see as good article here: http://www.farleycenter.com/resources/articles/2009-07-07/spotlight-diprivan-and-propofol-addiction) which can be detected in the brain.

That we know of, the coroner's report did not confirm this to be true of MJ.

The tox report showed all the drug given to him, even the ones that had nothing to do with his death. The only thing it did not show was the amount. Murray also admitted he gave all those drugs that night.

Also, addiction to propofol is when you inject yourself with it over and over again, but not knock yourself out. It is waking up that is additive, not falling asleep. Michael did not do that, so he was not addicted to it. He took it to sleep and woke up and went on with his day.

 

[Sirena]

at this point the family's credibility is very much damaged , whether they say he was addict or not , no one is gonna listen to them.

we learned one thing from 2005, the jury is going to base their verdict on what they hear in that court room .

I do believe the prosecution more than the defense is going to open their case by saying :" the victim was a junkie but that does not justify what this doctor did ".

they the prosecution and the defense will bash him and paint him as an addict , unstable person the prosecution will say murray was a doctor and he should have known better , the defense will say Murray tried but jackson insisted and if he turned him down , mj would have hired another doctor to do the same thing, the problem was not with murray, murray was their at the wrong time and what happened was bound to happen sooner or later whether it was murray or someone else , here comes Janet , Tito, Randy ,Rowe and joe stories about interventions, they will be called to help support this defense , regardless whether it was murray or not mj was in denial and he was bound to die from drugs at anytime .

in the search warrant the detectives made up their minds , they seized evidence in relation to charges related to prescribing to an addict .

the DA won't lose sleep over calling Micahel Jackson a junkie in the court room . the detectives said they were told by the family and media sources jackson was doctor shopping . Latoya's manager even handed marijuana to the coroner's investigator and called it heroine .


MJ will be called junkie by both the prosecution and the defense , MJ will be put on trial , they have already created a new medical term "Healthy addict" especially for MJ , eventhough there is no addict with healthy organs , no way someone abusing drugs like MJ reportedly did would have healthy organs .

so prepare yourselves , if Janet is not willing to step for her brother , do you even believe the DA will do such a thing ? NO .

Wow - you nailed it.

This is why the Jackson Family need to shut it DOWN and stay quiet.

 

[Bo G]

I'm really not getting that at all. I think we're keeping the discourse civil & rational.

Yes, we're OK here, agreed. It was in another thread that the attacking/defending was so inflamed the thread was closed. Also, statements in this thread that she's completely betrayed her brother, though civilly said, could still certainly be construed as an attack. I'm not saying the attacks aren't warranted, mind you, just smiling at the notion that "no one's attacking Janet."

 

[Sirena]

The tox report showed all the drug given to him, even the ones that had nothing to do with his death. The only thing it did not show was the amount. Murray also admitted he gave all those drugs that night.

Also, addiction to propofol is when you inject yourself with it over and over again, but not knock yourself out. It is waking up that is additive, not falling asleep. Michael did not do that, so he was not addicted to it. He took it to sleep and woke up and went on with his day.

I wasn't disagreeing with you - I was merely adding to your point.

Propofol addiction evidence is in the brain - and so far, MJ is clean.

 

[Pascal09]

The poster did not "blame" MJ. Stop blaming people for "blaming."

I'm not referring to the poster. I'm talking about the haters masquearding as fans. They know themselves. Not everyone on MJ fan board is necessarily a fan. I prime example; go to MJ's facebbok and you will find the number of hater who have joined his facebook just to bash him

 

[ReneeM]

So what if he had a dependecy in the past. That has got nothing to do with the present (i.e. before he died). Apparently he used propofol during HIStory tour, but yet I know you are happy to watch segments of that tour on Youtube; hipocrisy. Propofol didn't did kill him then. It's like the say "gun don't kill people, people kill people". In the same way "propofol/ so called addiction didn't kill Mj, Murray killed MJ". If there had been a competent doctor, Mj would have been alive. That's the fact; stop blaming him. They guy bears no responsibility.

What in the world happened here? Too funny.

You paid no attention at all to what I wrote. Too funny

Sure his past drug usage could have something to do with the present. Past drug use can make insomnia worse because conventional drugs don't have the same effect and the person looks for something stronger. That is not blaming him( why do you guys keep saying that?)

I have the DVD of the History tour, I don't need to watch youtube clips. Remember, he had an anesthesiologist with him to administer the Propofol. Murray was not qualified to dispense that drug. I don't disagree with that and never said otherwise.

Please try to understand what I'm saying before jumping to wrong conclusions.

 

[Ramona122003]

at this point the family's credibility is very much damaged , whether they say he was addict or not , no one is gonna listen to them.

we learned one thing from 2005, the jury is going to base their verdict on what they hear in that court room .

I do believe the prosecution more than the defense is going to open their case by saying :" the victim was a junkie but that does not justify what this doctor did ".

they the prosecution and the defense will bash him and paint him as an addict , unstable person the prosecution will say murray was a doctor and he should have known better , the defense will say Murray tried but jackson insisted and if he turned him down , mj would have hired another doctor to do the same thing, the problem was not with murray, murray was their at the wrong time and what happened was bound to happen sooner or later whether it was murray or someone else , here comes Janet , Tito, Randy ,Rowe and joe stories about interventions, they will be called to help support this defense , regardless whether it was murray or not mj was in denial and he was bound to die from drugs at anytime .

in the search warrant the detectives made up their minds , they seized evidence in relation to charges related to prescribing to an addict .

the DA won't lose sleep over calling Micahel Jackson a junkie in the court room . the detectives said they were told by the family and media sources jackson was doctor shopping . Latoya's manager even handed marijuana to the coroner's investigator and called it heroine .


MJ will be called junkie by both the prosecution and the defense , MJ will be put on trial , they have already created a new medical term "Healthy addict" especially for MJ , eventhough there is no addict with healthy organs , no way someone abusing drugs like MJ reportedly did would have healthy organs .

so prepare yourselves , if Janet is not willing to step for her brother , do you even believe the DA will do such a thing ? NO .

The tox or autopsy does not support the theory they will open with him being a junkie. The defense would be stupid to even bring it up since it will make Murray look like a drug dealer. They also have all of Michael's medical files, so why would they paint him as an addict if it can be easily disproved.

Also, only TMZ ever used the term "Healthy Drug Addict", so that is hardly valid.

 

[Pascal09]

Having evidence doesn't mean sh*t; all that matters is a reason doubt and murray will be a free man. As Cocran will say "if it doesn't fit, the you must acquit". If if Murray is convicted, he will have a reduce sentence (2-5 years maybe) due to the blame being levelled against MJ. The family is doing too much damage.