HIStory 25 [MERGED]

[NatureCriminal7896]

No it's about having respect to Michael and some of his fans.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

So you’re ok with the officially distributed version remaining censored 25 years after some people complained? That’s how art is supposed to be treated?

You are seriously starting to sound like you are asking for something extremely rare and that has been completely removed from earth or something.

In case some people don't wanna buy the original CD or LP, they'll be just one click away of listening to the uncensored version.

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[ScreenOrigami]

Seriously, you&#8217;re both not getting the point. This is censorship, and there should be outrage. Just because back in the day, in that situation, they decided to give in to the criticism doesn&#8217;t mean that this is still the right thing to do today.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

Seriously, you&#8217;re both not getting the point. This is censorship, and there should be outrage. Just because back in the day, in that situation, they decided to give in to the criticism doesn&#8217;t mean that this is still the right thing to do today.

You can listen to it on YT. Nobody is censoring it anymore.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

You can listen to it on YT. Nobody is censoring it anymore.

I give up. There&#8217;s no point trying to discuss this.

 

[djvernon]

I think this discussion is not about HIStory25 anymore, but about censoring tracks . . .
I am waiting for the other merch comng to us . . .

 

[ScreenOrigami]

I think this discussion is not about HIStory25 anymore, but about censoring tracks . . .
I am waiting for the other merch comng to us . . .

It is very much on topic. I was saying that a re-release of HIStory would have to have the uncensored version of TDCAU on it.

 

[ozemouze]

I&#8217;m talking about an official re-release that&#8217;s regularly on the shelves and streaming services for new fans to enjoy.

I can even imagine a History-only re-release (without the Greatest Hits material), so the focus would be on the then-new tracks. I understand it was a concept to include his older hits in an album that is about his legacy, but the second disc is still a bit unnecessary (I listened to it like once, haha). I remember reading an opinion that this strategy sent a bit confusing message to the general public, not being clear what it was, new material or a "best of" collection, and I think there's some truth to it.

And yep, it should be uncensored: the message of TDCAU is perfectly clear, to accuse it with the complete opposite meaning was due to deliberate misinterpretation IMO, so censoring it wasn't necessary (MJ did it as he was too concerned to not offend anyone, not even unintentionally).

You can listen to it on YT. Nobody is censoring it anymore.

Yeah but in case you don't want to listen to it in lossy quality on YT, but on let's say a nice sounding vinyl.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

Yeah but in case you don't want to listen to it in lossy quality on YT, but on let's say a nice sounding vinyl.

That's something difficult in these days. New pressings generally sound awful.

 

[ozemouze]

That's something difficult in these days. New pressings generally sound awful.

Then there's a market gap! The Estate should release high-end vinyls.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

Then there's a market gap! The Estate should release high-end vinyls.

No such thing as high end vinyls. There's no bigger scam than the "180 gram audiophile vinyl".

 

[ScreenOrigami]

I can even imagine a History-only re-release (without the Greatest Hits material), so the focus would be on the then-new tracks. I understand it was a concept to include his older hits in an album that is about his legacy, but the second disc is still a bit unnecessary (I listened to it like once, haha). I remember reading an opinion that this strategy sent a bit confusing message to the general public, not being clear what it was, new material or a "best of" collection, and I think there's some truth to it.

And yep, it should be uncensored: the message of TDCAU is perfectly clear, to accuse it with the complete opposite meaning was due to deliberate misinterpretation IMO, so censoring it wasn't necessary (MJ did it as he was too concerned to not offend anyone, not even unintentionally).

Yup, I remember it to be extremely confusing for me back in the day. I definitely remember thinking HIStory was a Greatest Hits compilation with some obscure bonus tracks.

Instead of the hits disk, they could put some demos on the extra disk, the Olodum TDCAU version from the extended film, and maybe the Planet Earth poem.

Yeah but in case you don't want to listen to it in lossy quality on YT, but on let's say a nice sounding vinyl.

That, and you&#8217;d have to know it&#8217;s out there at all. When you buy a new CD from a store, you don&#8217;t usually assume you have a censored version in your hands.

 

[ozemouze]

No such thing as high end vinyls. There's no bigger scam than the "180 gram audiophile vinyl".

It was just a joke.

Yup, I remember it to be extremely confusing for me back in the day. I definitely remember thinking HIStory was a Greatest Hits compilation with some obscure bonus tracks.

So that was the case indeed. Obviously fans where aware of what the album was (and would have bought it anyway ), but it might have lost some casual customers due this misleading strategy.

That, and you&#8217;d have to know it&#8217;s out there at all. When you buy a new CD from a store, you don&#8217;t usually assume you have a censored version in your hands.

Yep, and it's such a disappointment to find out later such things. It happens with film releases as well unfortunately, you have to check almost everything before buying. :/

 

[ScreenOrigami]

Yep, and it's such a disappointment to find out later such things. It happens with film releases as well unfortunately, you have to check almost everything before buying. :/

Yup. Approximately 10 minutes after my Moonwalker Blu-Ray arrived in my mailbox, I learned that it&#8217;s censored and I need to buy the DVD also.

 

[mjfan_93]

Theory: there is no HIStory 25 because there isn't enough material to warrant one.

Several informants have suggested that the HIStory section of the vault is essentially barren. Neither Joseph Vogel, Damien Shields, nor Mike Smallcombe—three of the most credible sources available—have been able to identify a single usable outtake from the 1994-95 sessions; several of the long-circulating titles (e.g., "Bassouille," "Fear") have been debunked; and the handful of known titles are either released ("Morphine," "Is It Scary," "On the Line," "In the Back," "Much Too Soon"), spoken word pieces over instrumental grooves ("Faces"), or lacking vocals beyond a chorus ("Willing & Waiting," "Innocent Man").

Assistant engineer Rob Hoffman did say there were a few nearly-finished pieces in 2009, but since he refused to identify any titles beyond "Much Too Soon," it's within the realm of possibility that these were holdovers from previous albums that we've since heard (e.g., "Do You Know Where Your Children Are").

Furthermore, are the demos of HIStory tracks even worth inclusion? Early cuts of songs like "Jam," "Billie Jean," and "Gone Too Soon" are completely extraneous, and that very well could be the case here. "What About Us" is nearly indistinguishable from "Earth Song," and for all we know, the 1989-90 sketch of "They Don't Care About Us" has no vocals.

When the Estate was gearing up for Off the Wall in 2016, they issued a statement claiming that there was insufficient unreleased material to justify any sort of elaborate music drop (which is entirely plausible seeing that the Off the Wall sessions are just as desolate as HIStory in terms of publicly available information). That very well could be the case here.

Plenty of fans were displeased with Bad 25 because it housed the two foreign language cuts of "I Just Can't Stop Loving You" and three irrelevant remixes. If all the Estate has to offer are similar recordings, maybe it's best that we don't get anything. I'm sure plenty will say, "the Estate is just greedy," but sometimes that's not the case.

How do you know about „Innocent Man“ and „Willing and Waiting“?

 

[AlwaysThere]

How do you know about &#8222;Innocent Man&#8220; and &#8222;Willing and Waiting&#8220;?

I've spoken to a few people who were lucky enough to have heard them. "Willing & Waiting" is standard mid-'90s Babyface R&B, and "Innocent Man" is (surprisingly) a mid-tempo song that bears some resemblance to "Another Day in Paradise" by Phil Collins.

 

[AmitLal92]

I've heard about these titles. Do you know how finished they are?

I've spoken to a few people who were lucky enough to have heard them. "Willing & Waiting" is standard mid-'90s Babyface R&B, and "Innocent Man" is (surprisingly) a mid-tempo song that bears some resemblance to "Another Day in Paradise" by Phil Collins.

 

[Fuzball]

Several informants have suggested that the HIStory section of the vault is essentially barren. Neither Joseph Vogel, Damien Shields, nor Mike Smallcombe&#8212;three of the most credible sources available&#8212;have been able to identify a single usable outtake from the 1994-95 sessions; several of the long-circulating titles (e.g., "Bassouille," "Fear") have been debunked; and the handful of known titles are either released ("Morphine," "Is It Scary," "On the Line," "In the Back," "Much Too Soon"), spoken word pieces over instrumental grooves ("Faces"), or lacking vocals beyond a chorus ("Willing & Waiting," "Innocent Man").

Assistant engineer Rob Hoffman did say there were a few nearly-finished pieces in 2009, but since he refused to identify any titles beyond "Much Too Soon," it's within the realm of possibility that these were holdovers from previous albums that we've since heard (e.g., "Do You Know Where Your Children Are").

Was Chicago 1945 ever considered for inclusion on History?

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

the reason why the history album was a two disc project because sony want it Michael to do a greatest hits album. so Michael put his old songs with his new songs on the project.

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

I agree with alwaysthere. maybe the estate really doesn't have anything left for this era. if they do they holding on to it

 

[NatureCriminal7896]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&#8220;He dreamed the big dream. It was P.T. Barnum.&#8221; <br>- Dan Beck. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/HIStory25?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#HIStory25</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/MJ2020?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#MJ2020</a> &#11015;&#65039; Full Article Below: <br><br>&quot;The History Statues&quot; by Jack Doyle (June 30th 2009.)<a href="https://t.co/YhBQiJJoKq">https://t.co/YhBQiJJoKq</a> <a href="https://t.co/2ENFK3X2F6">pic.twitter.com/2ENFK3X2F6</a></p>&mdash; MJ Rock Forever On (@MJRock4everOn) <a href="https://twitter.com/MJRock4everOn/status/1268435130080808962?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 4, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Michael Jackson <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/HIStory25?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#HIStory25</a> <a href="https://t.co/ugbuoydOig">pic.twitter.com/ugbuoydOig</a></p>&mdash; MJ Rock Forever On (@MJRock4everOn) <a href="https://twitter.com/MJRock4everOn/status/1267633079239221252?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 2, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[AlwaysThere]

I've heard about these titles. Do you know how finished they are?

"Willing & Waiting" is pretty much Babyface featuring Michael Jackson -- he only sings the chorus.

"Innocent Man" is also allegedly just a chorus. (I use "allegedly" here because I re-read my correspondence with the person who heard the track and they said they couldn't be positive if there were verse vocals or not, as they'd heard it years earlier, but were pretty certain there weren't. So, just in case!)

Was Chicago 1945 ever considered for inclusion on History?

Not sure! I know it was resurrected for Invincible and in early 2004, but not sure about HIStory. Definitely something to look into though! I wouldn't be surprised given the subject matter.

 

[Smooth72]

History25

 

[JichaelMackson]

Why are we always talking about album sessions. MJ had songs in consideration for his later albums that were originally conceived in the 70s. He was writing music all year. I think he basically considered every unreleased he did song for each album MJ didn't care about including "for all time" on thriller even though it wasn't written for the album. I'm sure there is late 70s material left to include on a OTW edition even if it wasn't particularly written with the album in mind.

or it's the opposite and there really is nothing left but a handful of finished tracks. Let's hope for the former!

 

[Nite Line]

- So Michael’s most productive eras in terms of unreleased material would be the Bad, Dangerous and Invincible eras.
- Off The Wall and History eras have barely any unreleased material left to release.
- Thriller era may have some unreleased material left but not a lot.

Is that correct AlwaysThere?

 

[AlwaysThere]

- So Michael&#8217;s most productive eras in terms of unreleased material would be the Bad, Dangerous and Invincible eras.
- Off The Wall and History eras have barely any unreleased material left to release.
- Thriller era may have some unreleased material left but not a lot.

Is that correct AlwaysThere?

So far as the available evidence is concerned, yes!

However, it goes without saying that there are dozens upon dozens of verified titles that we know nothing about -- the majority of those found on the handwritten list in Michael's bedroom, several indexed with legal registration offices, those identified by Michael during his 1993 deposition, titles mentioned by collaborators over the years, so on and so forth.

 

[ChrisC]

Yup. Approximately 10 minutes after my Moonwalker Blu-Ray arrived in my mailbox, I learned that it’s censored and I need to buy the DVD also.

You're welcome! hahahah

On TDCAU I'm not so bothered, you know. I feel like, given I bought HIStory on the Saturday of it's first week release, and I have about 4 different TDCAU singles, then I have all the versions with their minor changes - incidentally I do prefer the "single version" over the appearance on the LP, the 'LP edit' and the 'single edit'. Besides the loud sound effects over the 'offensive' lyrics there is an extra drum beat that appears in the 'single version' that elevates the track just another step.

I also think MJ signed off on the change. So what would he want now? Difficult one. I suppose the way to do it would be to present both versions and give them plenty of context as to what MJ meant, the controversy it generated and why MJ was compelled to change it.

Also, lazy once again to assume that there's nothing of value to put on an anniversary edition of the album. As I commented on in a different thread, these are just covers for the Estate's lack of action.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

I also think MJ signed off on the change. So what would he want now? Difficult one. I suppose the way to do it would be to present both versions and give them plenty of context as to what MJ meant, the controversy it generated and why MJ was compelled to change it.

Yeah, but he was pressured by the public to sign it off. He was still in the process of recovering from the bad press in 1993/94 and he certainly couldn&#8217;t afford another fallout at the time. I quote from MJ&#8217;s statement: &#8220;I am angry and outraged that I could be so misinterpreted.&#8221; So, yes, he did sign off on the change, but he didn&#8217;t appear to be overjoyed with the fact that he had to do it, and that&#8217;s putting it mildly. He had no choice.

We should also take into account that this happened 25 years ago, and I think it&#8217;s about time to reconsider the decision and put the original version back in its spot on the album. They can slap a &#8220;Parental Advisory: Explicit Lyrics&#8221; on it in countries where they have to, and tell the whole story in the booklet. Because I think it&#8217;s a very interesting story that gives great insight into the censorship madness of the 90&#8217;s in general.

 

[ChrisC]

Yeah, but he was pressured by the public to sign it off. He was still in the process of recovering from the bad press in 1993/94 and he certainly couldn&#8217;t afford another fallout at the time. I quote from MJ&#8217;s statement: &#8220;I am angry and outraged that I could be so misinterpreted.&#8221; So, yes, he did sign off on the change, but he didn&#8217;t appear to be overjoyed with the fact that he had to do it, and that&#8217;s putting it mildly. He had no choice.

You are right. And I agree he was probably wrong to make the change in the first place.

It's a shame we don't have MJ on record about that issue beyond June 1995. It would be interesting to hear how he felt about it 10 years on for example. Of course MJ was interviewed multiple times thereafter but the topics covered in those interviews were usually how come you prefer climbing trees to sex and plastic surgery and his skin. It's laughable really when you think about it.

 

[ScreenOrigami]

You are right. And I agree he was probably wrong to make the change in the first place.

It's a shame we don't have MJ on record about that issue beyond June 1995. It would be interesting to hear how he felt about it 10 years on for example. Of course MJ was interviewed multiple times thereafter but the topics covered in those interviews were usually how come you prefer climbing trees to sex and plastic surgery and his skin. It's laughable really when you think about it.

Absolutely. But he wasn&#8217;t wrong by changing it &#8211; he was wronged by a handful of influential people. And it&#8217;s about time to make it right again.