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Dr Tohme Tohme wants Money Money from MJ

Soso Deaf said:
kind of and also it looks as though murray may wanna file a claim agains tthe estate...im not lying...dude wants his $300K
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He might not be facing jail time if the told the truth. It would had faced malpractice not doubt, but I am not completely sure they would had charge him on manslaughter. Mostly because the drug he gave him is not illegal to give, even at home. If Murray did everything in his power to save Michael and did not leave the room, I do not thing you could get him with manslaughter.

However, it is everything he did after he gave Michael the drug that is going to land him in jail. The one that might give him criminally negligent manslaughter or even second degree murder is the fact he corrupted a crime scene instead of calling for help right away. He also told lies about what he gave and did not give Michael that might of saved his life, if he was still alive.

That is all I meant in that last post. Although, where is that 300k figure come from?
 
elusive moonwalker said:
manslaughter by negligence?
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Criminally negligent manslaughter

Criminally negligent manslaughter is variously referred to as criminally negligent homicide in the United States, gross negligence manslaughter in England and Wales or culpable homicide in Scotland.
It occurs where death results from serious negligence, or, in some jurisdictions, serious recklessness. A high degree of negligence is required to warrant criminal liability. A related concept is that of wilful blindness, which is where a defendant intentionally puts himself in a position where he will be unaware of facts which would render him liable.
Criminally negligent manslaughter occurs where there is an omission to act when there is a duty to do so, or a failure to perform a duty owed, which leads to a death. The existence of the duty is essential because the law does not impose criminal liability for a failure to act unless a specific duty is owed to the victim. It is most common in the case of professionals who are grossly negligent in the course of their employment. An example is where a doctor fails to notice a patient's oxygen supply has disconnected and the patient dies


United States Law

In many jurisdictions such as California, malice may be found if gross negligence amounts to wilful or depraved indifference to human life. In such a case, the wrongdoer may be guilty of second degree murder.


Manslaughter by gross negligence

Under English law, where a person causes death through extreme carelessness or incompetence, gross negligence is required. While the specifics of negligence may vary from one jurisdiction to another, it is generally defined as failure to exercise a reasonable level of precaution given the circumstances and so may include both acts and omissions. The defendants in such cases are often people carrying out jobs that require special skills or care, such as doctors, police or prison officers, or electricians, who fail to meet the standard which could be expected from a reasonable person of the same profession and cause death. In R v Bateman 1925 Cr. App R. 8 the Court of Criminal Appeal held that gross negligence manslaughter involved the following elements:


the defendant owed a duty to the deceased to take care;
the defendant breached this duty;
the breach caused the death of the deceased; and
the defendant's negligence was gross, that is, it showed such a disregard for the life and safety of others as to amount to a crime and deserve punishment.
 
theres nothing more negligent then giving diprivan outside a hospital setting without the right equipment and not watching the patient. he comes under second degree murder imo. but its all down to opinion/interpretation.he had a duty of care to mj
 
elusive moonwalker said:
theres nothing more negligent then giving diprivan outside a hospital setting without the right equipment and not watching the patient. he comes under second degree murder imo. but its all down to opinion/interpretation.he had a duty of care to mj
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Given how second degree murder works in the US, I doubt he would be charge with it.


Degrees of murder in the United States

The first scheme, used by Pennsylvania and the most common among other states:

Second Degree Murder: Homicide committed by an individual engaged as a principal or an accomplice in the perpetration of a felony.


The second scheme, used by New York among other states, as well as the Model Penal Code:

Second Degree Murder: Any premeditated murder or felony murder that does not involve special circumstances.


In both cases, the person had to be in the act of committing a crime. Since given Michael the drug in question is not illegal, he really cannot be charge on this. Given diprivan outside a hospital is dangerous, but it is not illegal to do, so no crime was in progress.
 
Given how second degree murder works in the US, I doubt he would be charge with it.
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theres a variation in cali inregards to second degree murder that would cover murray. its been posted a few times on here. cant rememeber the exact wording. but its basically about negligence and being so reckless with that persons life that u might aswell have murdered them
 
elusive moonwalker said:
theres a variation in cali inregards to second degree murder that would cover murray. its been posted a few times on here. cant rememeber the exact wording. but its basically about negligence and being so reckless with that persons life that u might aswell have murdered them
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As stated above, second degree murder can only be use if a crime was happening. Like if you went to beat up someone for whatever reason and you end up accidentally killing them. The crime in progress was assault so you can be charge second degree murder. Since given the drug is not a crime, it is highly unlikely he could get second degree murder. If he gave Michael illegal drugs, it would be more possible.
 
well u can say the crime is giving such a drug in a non hospital setting without the right equipment. a crime was committed otherwise you wouldnt be looking at manslaughter to start with. not that it means anything but it was intresting that in the search warrants (the first ones dont know about later ones) that murder was listed on the reason for the warrants.mark geragos amongst others talked about this cali clause of second degree and actually said because of the way its written it would be easier to get murray on that.

Like if you went to beat up someone for whatever reason and you end up accidentally killing them.
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wouldnt that then be classed as manslaughter. murder normally requires intent manslaughter covers the gap between intent to kill and killling someone while having a fight but not meaning to kill them. well thats how it works here.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
well u can say the crime is giving such a drug in a non hospital setting without the right equipment. a crime was committed otherwise you wouldnt be looking at manslaughter to start with. not that it means anything but it was intresting that in the search warrants (the first ones dont know about later ones) that murder was listed on the reason for the warrants.mark geragos amongst others talked about this cali clause of second degree and actually said because of the way its written it would be easier to get murray on that.

wouldnt that then be classed as manslaughter. murder normally requires intent manslaughter covers the gap between intent to kill and killling someone while having a fight but not meaning to kill them. well thats how it works here.
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It really depends because the lines between manslaughter and second degree murder varies depends on the severity of the crime in question.

If you went to someone house to beat them up and you end up accidentally killing them, that is second degree murder because it was pre-mandated in the sense you were committing another crime, assault.

Manslaughter is if you accidentally hit someone with your car because you fall asleep behind the wheel. Although you did not meant to kill them and you had no intention of doing harm, that would be manslaughter. Drunk driving is different because it is consider driving with a dangerous weapon and can get you second degree murder if you kill someone.

What Murray did was dangerous, but it was not illegal no matter how stupid it was. Since the drug was not illegal, it is not the same if Murray injected Michael with morphine for example. Morphine is a control substance and can only be given in a hospital.

Murray did not have the right equipment to do what he did, but that is more in line with criminally negligent manslaughter:

"A related concept is that of willful blindness, which is where a defendant intentionally puts himself in a position where he will be unaware of facts which would render him liable."

This is what Murray did. Also:

"Criminally negligent manslaughter occurs where there is an omission to act when there is a duty to do so, or a failure to perform a duty owed, which leads to a death."

Murray failed at his duty because he left the room, did not have the proper equipment, and did not call for help right away.
 
hat Murray did was dangerous, but it was not illegal no matter how stupid it was. Since the drug was not illegal, it is not the same if Murray injected Michael with morphine for example. Morphine is a control substance and can only be given in a hospital.
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yeah the action of giving that drug isnt illegal. its what he did afterwards and what he didnt do interms of the equipment he didnt have.

If you went to someone house to beat them up and you end up accidentally killing them, that is second degree murder because it was pre-mandated in the sense you were committing another crime, assault.

Manslaughter is if you accidentally hit someone with your car because you fall asleep behind the wheel. Although you did not meant to kill them and you had no intention of doing harm, that would be manslaughter. Drunk driving is different because it is consider driving with a dangerous weapon and can get you second degree murder if you kill someone.
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ok i think i get you lol your laws are abit confusing,basically in the uk your murder 2 equals manslaughter here.and re the driving example that would come under death by dangerous driving. for some reason years back i thought second and first was kinda seperated by if i stab u one time and kill you and first degree if i stab u 50 times. be alot easier if it were lol

re the second degree cali law. seeing as geragos talked about amongst others than i beleive it does cover murray.otherwise it wouldnt be mentioned in the first place.its obviously a variation on the standard definition of the charge. and i hope the reason for a delay in charges is they are pushing for this although of course i wont be surprsied if all we get is the manslaughter charge.at this rate ill take anything
 
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elusive moonwalker said:
yeah the action of giving that drug isnt illegal. its what he did afterwards and what he didnt do interms of the equipment he didnt have.

ok i think i get you lol your laws are abit confusing,basically in the uk your murder 2 equals manslaughter here.and re the driving example that would come under death by dangerous driving. for some reason years back i thought second and first was kinda seperated by if i stab u one time and kill you and first degree if i stab u 50 times. be alot easier if it were lol

re the second degree cali law. seeing as geragos talked about amongst others than i beleive it does cover murray.otherwise it wouldnt be mentioned in the first place.its obviously a variation on the standard definition of the charge. and i hope the reason for a delay in charges is they are pushing for this although of course i wont be surprsied if all we get is the manslaughter charge.at this rate ill take anything
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It would be harder to get second degree murder because you have to prove ill intent. It is not impossible, but they will have more to prove to get a conviction. Which is why manslaughter is more likely. We do not have all the evidence, so we have to wait on that.

Everything Murray did after Michael stopped breathing is a different crime all together. He corrupted a crime scene. Instead of calling for help, he used that time to stage an OD scene. This is a seperate crime, but can be added to make a second degree murder charge since it can be use to prove intent. I think this falls under the same catlogory as bearing false witness, but I am not sure.
 
It would be harder to get second degree murder because you have to prove ill intent. It is not impossible, but they will have more to prove to get a conviction. Which is why manslaughter is more likely. We do not have all the evidence, so we have to wait on that.
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i dont think you have to prove ill intent with that cali clause. i keep frgetting to write the definition of it down when it gets posted. william has it. hopefully they will post it. its basically a higher level of negligence
 
elusive moonwalker said:
i dont think you have to prove ill intent with that cali clause. i keep frgetting to write the definition of it down when it gets posted. william has it. hopefully they will post it. its basically a higher level of negligence
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It really depends on the state, but ill intent is usually the what separates manslaughter from second degree murder.
 
yeah i think this law is something pretty much just to cali. it doesnt seem to be a standard thing. as its not a normal definition
 
elusive moonwalker said:
yeah i think this law is something pretty much just to cali. it doesnt seem to be a standard thing. as its not a normal definition
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Second degree murder and manslaughter are kissing cousins. They are so close they it is really hard to say how someone will be charge. However, just being grossly negligence will not get you second degree murder. With second degree murder you usually have to be in the mindset to cause harm to begin with.

Which is why criminally negligent manslaughter is more likely. This is much hasher than just manslaughter because it shows that the person was so negligent that even without ill intent, they was a high chance of causing harm or death. It also shows a disregard to human life and safety.

Which, pretty much describe Murray.
 
Soso Deaf said:
kind of and also it looks as though murray may wanna file a claim agains tthe estate...im not lying...dude wants his $300K
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:mello: This is why I want to know out of Randy Phillip's mouth for sure if AEG had hired and were the people who were going to pay Murray once the concerts began.

Where do you get the $300K figure from? Wasn't it $150K a month or something like that?
 
Ramona122003 said:
Second degree murder and manslaughter are kissing cousins. They are so close they it is really hard to say how someone will be charge. However, just being grossly negligence will not get you second degree murder. With second degree murder you usually have to be in the mindset to cause harm to begin with.

Which is why criminally negligent manslaughter is more likely. This is much hasher than just manslaughter because it shows that the person was so negligent that even without ill intent, they was a high chance of causing harm or death. It also shows a disregard to human life and safety.

Which, pretty much describe Murray.
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You might want to take a look at this article (discussion posted in Investigative Forum) which describes a previous case of overdose by Propofol where the 'murderer' got sentance to life imprisonment for first degree murder.

http://www.anesthesia-analgesia.org/cgi/reprint/108/4/1182.pdf
 
elusive moonwalker said:
i dont think you have to prove ill intent with that cali clause. i keep frgetting to write the definition of it down when it gets posted. william has it. hopefully they will post it. its basically a higher level of negligence
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is someone acts with "reckless disregard for human life" it can turn to second degree murder and this includes more than simple negligence - in Murray's case let's say he realized MJ's dying but chose to cover his tracks first and then call for help

but wasn't this topic about Tohme?
 
yes it was. lol

but if they show his conduct after the fact, prove mens rea and actus reus then it can be murder two. as far as manslaughter and second degree being kissing cousins...i wouldn't say that much. while manslaughter CAN carry a high penalty, it usually doesn't and the person is out pretty fast.

for first degree, u have to prove premediation. did he set out to kill him? b/c if he was just using something deadly in a reckless way and did things after the fact to cover it up or did things before the death that were illegal, it's second degree
 
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