[Discussion] Sexual Abuse Claims Against MJ Estate - Robson/ Safechuck/ Doe

Personally I'm confused about what Wade is exactly claiming. The complaint mentions Wade "compartmentalized" those events and did not believe or understand what they are. To me it sounds like some sort of repressed - compressed-suppressed memory claim without calling it such.

So regardless of what you call it Wade claims he didn't remember or realize it until May 2012 and he couldn't have brought the lawsuit before. It's their way of arguing against Estate's all statue of limitation passed argument.

I think they are just on a fishing expedition. What does the NL search have to do with Wade's claim for equitable estoppel? To be entitled to equitable estoppel he needs to prove that he was threatened and intimidated by MJ so that it made him unable to realize he was abused until 2013. How does that have anything to do with the 2003 NL search?

Well I have seen a website for recovered memory abuse cases and it seems like in every instance it required collaborative evidence for it not to be dismissed. I still think he's looking for other kids who said stuff similar to his such as Chandler mentioning going to jail (as threat) or evidence of what Wade calls "brainwashing".

------------

That link you posted was interesting.

Therefore, where the victim does not purport to have repressed the abuse itself, but instead alleges only to have recently discovered the extent of their psychological injuries from the abuse, tolling of the statute does not occur. (Evans, supra, at p. 1620)

The Marsha V. court reflects a common thread between the decisions rejecting the delayed discovery rule in the case of adult survivors of childhood molestation. A plaintiff who, by her own admission, was molested "against her will" but does not claim to have immediately and completely suppressed the abuse, cannot take advantage of the discovery rule. This should be distinguished from the case where the plaintiff claims to have had no prior awareness of the "wrongfulness" of the defendant’s conduct until some point in time which is no more than three years before the complaint is filed. This is the distinction drawn in the Jolly and Evans decisions. California courts have thus far been reluctant to apply the discovery rule, unless the plaintiff can successfully argue that she has repressed the molestation, or that she was ignorant of the "wrongfulness" of her abuser’s conduct.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I am reading a lot of things thus far about revorved memories and how as pointed out it would have helped Wade to say that. I just don't get it
 
ivy;4040861 said:
Personally I'm confused about what Wade is exactly claiming. The complaint mentions Wade "compartmentalized" those events and did not believe or understand what they are. To me it sounds like some sort of repressed - compressed-suppressed memory claim without calling it such.

I don't think his claims make sense as repressed memories. For example, he claims before he went to his therapist to first disclose his alleged abuse he looked at his son imagining the things done to him that he alleges MJ did to him when he was a child. So there were no repressed memories there. And on Today's Show he emphasized it was not repressed memory. So for his lawyer to go to court and claim repressed memory now would be odd. It would mean they are changing his story.


Well I have seen a website for recovered memory abuse cases and it seems like in every instance it required collaborative evidence for it not to be dismissed. I still think he's looking for other kids who said stuff similar to his such as Chandler mentioning going to jail (as threat) or evidence of what Wade calls "brainwashing".

But I still don't see what does that have to do with the material found in the NL search. I mean if they want to use Jordan's claim as supporting evidence for Wade then go to the Chandlers and ask them to hand them the transcript of the Gardner interview. What do they hope to find at NL in 2003 about that? I can understand if they are asking for past testimonies, police interviews, depositions etc (which they do) but the NL search request is just a fishing expedition with no foundation at all. I don't see any relation there to their equitable estoppel request.

And regarding using Jordan's jail claim. This is what Jordan said:

"By the way, going back, did he say, 'It's a secret.'"
"Michael?"
"Yeah. In terms of did he make any threats?"
"I think he may have said, like, if you tell - - if people say 'Don't worry, just tell us, Michael
will go to jail and nothing will happen to me you.' He said that wasn't true, and I could, like,
go to juvenile hall or something."
"That he could go to jail but you'd go to juvenile hall?"
"Something like that."
"That he himself could go to jail?"
"I don't specifically remember. I'm almost positive though, that he said about juvenile hall.
I'm almost positive he said that, but I do indeed remember that he said that he would go to
jail, and that, like, I wouldn't get off Scott free."
"Did you believe that?"
"Well, I didn't really believe it at the time, and I definitely don't now. But at the time I didn't
really believe it but I said, okay, whatever, and just went along with it."

So how does Wade intend to use it? To show what 13-year-old Jordan did not believe Wade did believe until he was 30? And that it had such a profound, indimidating effect on 13-year-old Jordan that he could hardly remember it only a couple of months later?

That link you posted was interesting.

Therefore, where the victim does not purport to have repressed the abuse itself, but instead alleges only to have recently discovered the extent of their psychological injuries from the abuse, tolling of the statute does not occur. (Evans, supra, at p. 1620)

The Marsha V. court reflects a common thread between the decisions rejecting the delayed discovery rule in the case of adult survivors of childhood molestation. A plaintiff who, by her own admission, was molested "against her will" but does not claim to have immediately and completely suppressed the abuse, cannot take advantage of the discovery rule. This should be distinguished from the case where the plaintiff claims to have had no prior awareness of the "wrongfulness" of the defendant’s conduct until some point in time which is no more than three years before the complaint is filed. This is the distinction drawn in the Jolly and Evans decisions. California courts have thus far been reluctant to apply the discovery rule, unless the plaintiff can successfully argue that she has repressed the molestation, or that she was ignorant of the "wrongfulness" of her abuser’s conduct.

Yes, I used this quote earlier as well, but then I realized this is about cases before 1991. In 1990 the law changed and became more liberal to alleged victims:

"Rather than rely exclusively on the delayed discovery doctrine, SB 108 would extend the time for commencement of actions based on childhood sexual abuse to eight years from the date of plaintiff’s majority, and expressly provide for application of delayed discovery principles to cases brought after that date. The proponents contend that it is well documented that most victims of childhood sexual abuse either repress their memories of the abuse, or are unable to appreciate their injuries until well into their adult years. `An extension of time to sue until the victim’s 26th birthday, coupled with the possibility of showing justifiable delay thereafter, is based on current psychological studies on the hidden long-term effects of such abuse.’"

The 1990 legislative amendments in C.C.P. 340.1 liberalized the statute of limitations in "childhood sexual abuse" cases. The revised statute expanded the time period for commencing suit to eight years, or three years following discovery of the causal nexus between the injury and abuse. The extended time period is devoted to actions filed on or after January 1, 1991.

However, even within these more liberal rules Wade missed all deadlines (like the Estate argued he missed three different statues of limitations).
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I am reading a lot of things thus far about revorved memories and how as pointed out it would have helped Wade to say that. I just don't get it

I think the circumstances of how he first made these claims to his therapist probably did not make him able to claim repressed memories. Gradstein only came later, so I guess Wade made a couple of legal mistakes at the beginning when he first came up with the idea to sue MJ.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Laura Messina @IJCSLYMichael
@AlanDukeCNN @mccartneyAP Are you going to report from the court today re Safechuck/Robson insanity?

Anthony McCartney @mccartneyAP
@IJCSLYMichael I did go. No ruling on Robson's discovery requests. Judge said he'd rule as soon as possible.

@mccartneyAP @IJCSLYMichael Thank you. Hard to keep up with WR/JS attorneys' shameful tactics.

Anthony McCartney@mccartneyAP
&juney9800 @IJCSLYMichael That hearing will be on different issues - judge said he'd rule on today's motion before then.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

"He remembered it when he remembered it" what a great legal argument.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

"He remembered it when he remembered it." Wow. Wade and his team can't keep their story straight, this isn't going to help them at all. I hope the judge can see how ridiculous this is.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

"He remembered it when he remembered it." Wow. Wade and his team can't keep their story straight, this isn't going to help them at all. I hope the judge can see how ridiculous this is.

It seems as if their tactic has become throw as much mud as possible, and then see if anything sticks later.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

"He remembered it when he remembered it." Wow. Wade and his team can't keep their story straight, this isn't going to help them at all. I hope the judge can see how ridiculous this is.

I agree. So Wade can say on TV how he never forgot about Michael abusing him and yet now the story is that he basically did forget all about it until 2012? Does he really want people to think that in spite of him being so intelligent on the stand in 2005, that he was actually dumber than a doorknob? This case is a seriously hot mess that is only getting hotter. If the judge is smart and unbiased, he will throw this garbage out. There's something wrong with the case if the story keeps changing, in my opinion.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I agree. So Wade can say on TV how he never forgot about Michael abusing him and yet now the story is that he basically did forget all about it until 2012? Does he really want people to think that in spite of him being so intelligent on the stand in 2005, that he was actually dumber than a doorknob? This case is a seriously hot mess that is only getting hotter. If the judge is smart and unbiased, he will throw this garbage out. There's something wrong with the case if the story keeps changing, in my opinion.
When a story keeps changing is often because it is
B
U
L
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

They mean repressed memories have been basis of criminal trials but never for civil trial. With MJ being dead, there's no way a criminal trial can happen. And Estate is arguing what you are saying "without those memories no trial can happen AND such memories isn't relevant in civil cases".
That's not right though, these type of memories seem to have been used in recent californian civil trials against the catholic church. I get the impression that it's the nature of repressed memories and the type of therapy that is needed to recover them that is controversial in court cases as to whether or not it is valid evidence, whether in criminal or civil trials. I'm just feeling trying to decipher pearl's notes is a bit fruitless as it doesn't make sense. SAme with that statement, 'he remembered it when he remembered it' - i can imagine it was just a random, off the cuff statement pearl heard wade's lawyer make impatiently in court in response to the estate's arguments re statutes of limitations, i'm not sure it necessarily represents a new legal strategy. I imagine even Wade and gradstein recognise he can't say he 'repressed' his memories of mj as he was asked continually about his close friendship with mj for 20 yrs including a court of law. So he's been forced to argue that he was unwilling and unable to acknowledge his relationship with mj which included anal rape etc etc was abusive or wrongful - good luck with that ridiculous 'strategy', which still involves lying in court.

respect77 said:
I think they are just on a fishing expedition. What does the NL search have to do with Wade's claim for equitable estoppel? To be entitled to equitable estoppel he needs to prove that he was threatened and intimidated by MJ so that it made him unable to realize he was abused until 2013. How does that have anything to do with the 2003 NL search?
Yes, gradstein's just being superannoying. It has to be pretty compelling prevention of disclosure by the offender to get a judge to allow overturning stats of limitation. Even if you're going to make out that mj had never-seen-before mind control superpowers, he cd have had nothing to do with preventing wade from missing at least one statute of limitation - the 60days one as he had been dead for 4 years. Therefore equit estop cannot be applied to wade's case, I'm sure gradstein knows this, but i guess he's just throwing everything at this case to get attention.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I will not touch it. Please someone make a summary. I refuse to give radar any hit
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

^^Its court documents from the estate. Better read it yourself or wait until Ivy pops in with summary:)
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

That's not right though, these type of memories seem to have been used in recent californian civil trials against the catholic church.

You are mixing up the nature of the cases. Here the claim is sexual abuse and Wade is trying to sue a dead man's Estate for it. Catholic church is sued for negligence. Not only entities can be sued to until the plaintiff is 26 yrs old but CA at least once passed a temporary bill to allow such negligence lawsuits against entities.

I checked a lawsuit database for recovered memories for sexual abuse and I have seen civil cases filed on the basis of repressed memories but in all instances the defendant was alive and there were secondary evidence confirming the abuse (in many instances defendant themselves admitting to the abuse). It didn't look like any of the cases were allowed based on repressed memory claim alone.

I think Estate means repressed memories has never been used after the death of the defendant against his Estate. and I believe it's true. The only case involving an Estate I found was filed when the defendant was alive, defendant admitted to abuse and committed suicide. Estate had taken over the case after defendants death. So I don't think there's any sexual abuse case filed after the accused died against his Estate.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate


It's Estate's demurrer against Safechuck

Safechuck claims
- Michael abused him between 1988 and 1991
- he knew MJ was dead
- he knew Branca would be managing the Estate
- he knew Branca was a lawyer for MJ
- he doesn't claim repressed memory
- he says Michael asked him to testify in his behalf in 2005 but Safechuck refused because he didn't want his mother to find out Michael had abused him.
- he says he eventually told his mother in 2005 that Michael abused him and he's a bad man
- he didn't connect his various anxiety issues to the abuse
- 2010 Safechuck's son is born, he becomes concerned of having pedopholic urges, prescribed Xanax, still did not connect all these to the abuse.
- Wade files a lawsuit, Safechuck hears it, for the first time he thinks he might need help. sees a doctor in may 20, 2013.
- lawyers have been working on Safechuck's case for 8 months before they filed it.

Estate is asking for dismissal based on - too late to file, knew the Estate etc and Safechuck too claims equitable estoppel.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

he becomes concerned of having pedopholic urges, prescribed Xanax

I did not know Xanax is prescribed to control pedopholic urges

- lawyers have been working on Safechuck's case for 8 months before they filed it

sums up everything
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

It's prescribed for anxiety.

I think this is a page from Wade's claims. they both claim : Theirs sons born and they are like "oh my god what if I abuse my son like I was abused". It actually comes from a book / theory that the sexually abused people become abusers themselves. So I don't think they get (or claim to get) actual pedopholic urges just anxiety / concern.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

equitable estoppel

Based on what? if his fear of his mom knowning was what prevented him from testifying in 2005, what was his excuse later ?
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I did not know Xanax is prescribed to control pedopholic urges



sums up everything

Xanax were only prescribed for patients who have anxiety and panic attacks. Since when do they say Xanax is used to control p****holic urges?
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

It's prescribed for anxiety.

I think this is a page from Wade's claims. they both claim : Theirs sons born and they are like "oh my god what if I abuse my son like I was abused". It actually comes from a book / theory that the sexually abused people become abusers themselves. So I don't think they get (or claim to get) actual pedopholic urges just anxiety / concern.


In other words, he had a documented evidence he was prescribed Xanax in 2010 for some issue and decided this detail could be used in his case to give him more credibility. This case is going no where.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Based on what?

not much detail is given in this document but I believe they are basing equitable estoppel based on alleged conduct by Michael.

The simplest example is for example when a perpetrator says to the victim "I'll kill you if you talk", victim doesn't come forward, statue of limitations pass. Then in the future victim comes forward and then they argue equitable estoppel. As the reason the victim didn't come forward was the perpetrators threats, perpetrator should be given the benefit of statue of limitations.

I think this is where their "brainwashing", "grooming" claims come in and the reason why they didn't come forward or realize the abuse was due to Michael's actions hence statue of limitations should be thrown out.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

but MJ was dead for 5 years, beside he admitted he was aware MJ was a bad person in 2005, what did prevent him from coming forward after MJ's death? he did say "no" to mj in 2005.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

not much detail is given in this document but I believe they are basing equitable estoppel based on alleged conduct by Michael.
Skimming through the doc you posted the estate seem to be countering the equit estoppel argument by stating that it can only refer to them not to mj as he's dead and cred claims are against the executors of the estate. They're saying they obviously did nothing to prevent wade/safechuck from bringing forward a claim within the time limits. So all this nonsense of mj threatening jail decades ago etc is irrelevant.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

^^

yes in this instance this is not just about civil rules, statues etc but also the probate rules apply - within a year, 60 days after discovery etc. Estate is trying to differentiate between Michael and the Estate.

but MJ was dead for 5 years, beside he admitted he was aware MJ was a bad person in 2005, what did prevent him from coming forward after MJ's death? he did say "no" to mj in 2005.

that's a question to Safechuck or perhaps can be find in this complaint. Like I said the file posted is Estate's demurrer so it has arguments against what Safechuck claims and not necessarily what he claims.

I would agree that Safechuck's claims seems to be weaker than Wade's. At least Wade has "I didn't know it was abuse" claim in attempt to explain why he didn't or couldn't file this sooner. Safechuck on the other hand is "I told my mother I was abused in 2005" and he needs to explain why it took him 9 years to connect his anxiety issues to the (alleged) abuse that he was very much aware of.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I will not touch it. Please someone make a summary. I refuse to give radar any hit

It's the Estate's request for a demmurrer of Safechuck's case. It does not contain Safechuck's lawsuit, but it does refer to some elements of it so we can learn from it:

- Safechuck alleges MJ molested him between 1988 and 1991.
- Safechuck admits he learnt about MJ's death shortly after he died and he was aware of his Estate. (No silly "I had no idea
about the administration of the Estate" claim here as in Robson's claims.)
- He learnt about Robson's allegations shortly after May 1, 2013.
- Safechuck's lawyer, Maryann Marzano (same as Robson's lawyer) said in their lawsuit that she's been working on Safechuck's case 8 months before they filed in May, 2014. Which would mean she's been working on it since September, 2013.
- He claims he did not testify in 2005 because he was concerned his mother would find out he was sexually abused by MJ. He
claims regardless ultimately he told his mother in 2005 that MJ was a "bad man" and that he "had been abused by MJ".
- He claims he did not initially connect various anxiety issues he suffered to the alleged abuse until mid-2013.
- He claims he became concerned about having pedophilic urges when his son was born and that he was prescribed Xanax during his wife's pregnancy in 2010.
- He claims he did not link these anxiety issues to his alleged abuse until he saw Robson in 2013 and went into therapy on May 20, 2013, discussing the alleged abuse.

They have a different strategy as with Robson. Safechuck admits knowing about the Estate since 2009, and does not claim he was unwilling or unable to realize his alleged abuse until shortly before he filed, he does not claim repressed memories etc. He claims though that he did not connect his anxiety issues to his alleged abuse until he went to therapy in May 2013.

They have no chance with probate court law (having to file 60 days after learning about the Estate or the facts supporting the claim), so they rely on equitable estoppel. However they apparently present a brand new equitable estoppel theory that has never been used in courts before. Estate says they have found no case supporting the application of estoppel the way Safechuck tries to. Equitable estoppel, according to the Estate argument, could only be applied in this case if it was a result of the conduct of the Executors or Befeficiaries, not the Decendent's (equitable estoppel could have only been used because of the Decendent's alleged conduct within one year of his death).

Safechuck claims MJ's conduct is the reason why he did not connect the alleged harm to the alleged abuse until mid-2013. Apparently the claim is that MJ manipulated him to believe that he was "in love with [MJ] and [MJ] had done nothing wrong" (actually this is a quote from a precedent case, but the document says Safechuck claims the same thing). And Safechuck claims he's realized the "truth" that he's been a victim of sexual abuse only after therapy in 2013. (How does it jive with his other claim that he told his mother in 2005? Or that he was concerned about pedophiliac urges in 2010? If he thought it was love until mid-2013 why was he concerned about that?)

However, argues the Estate, this would be the case of delayed discovery, not equitable estoppel and delayed discovery is irrelevant here, because in case of delayed discovery he should have filed his lawsuit 60 days within acquiring knowledge about the connection between his psychological harms and the alleged abuse.

250igko.jpg


Also:

"Safechuck spends the majority of legal argument on the contention that the policy considerations behind CCP 340.1 somehow "estop" the Executors from relying on the applicable deadlines.
The plain language of 340.1., however, confirms that it has no application to these proceedings."

Then they cite precedent cases where it's quiet clearly stated if the creators of a law intended to state something in a law then they would have done so. There is no support in Court practice for interpreting things into laws which aren't there. At least that's how I understand this argument.

Then the Estate asks for the dismissal of Safechuck's late claim.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

So safechuck got himself into therapy on 20 may, a couple of weeks after learning about wade's lawsuit. He didn't waste time, and he began his lawsuit with gradstein in sept last year. There's just no attempt at all to be within time limits. Safechuck always knew he was abused and in fact told his mother back in 05. Did sneddon not contact him? Safechuck didn't testify for mj because he probably was never asked. He was never portrayed as a victim by the prosecution like wade, mac and brett, so there was no need for him to be called. Emmanuel, julian lennon, omer etc etc were never called to give evidence for the defence.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I don't understand safechucks case. He can't claim delayed discovery as he knew the wrongfulness of the acts, doesn't matter if he only just realised that damage arose from the abuse, that doesn't meet the requirements for the extension of the timelimits that delayed discovery allows. Equitable estoppel is a no go as mj's threats are woefully inadequate to prevent him from coming forward for 2 decades, and/or as the estate seems to be arguing the equitable estoppel applies to them as executors as to whether they tried to prevent safechuck from coming forward which they obviously didn't. Legally it's a farce and has no hope whatsoever for going forward, but it's just so damaging and depressing to have these 'friends' turning round and making these horrible allegations. I blame these lawyers too, they must be filling these men's heads with $signs whilst knowing they haven't got a leg to stand on, except to force a settlement.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I don't understand safechucks case. He can't claim delayed discovery as he knew the wrongfulness of the acts. Equitable estoppel is a no go as mj's threats are woefully inadequate to prevent him from coming forward for 2 decades, and/or as the estate seems to be arguing the equitable estoppel applies to them as executors trying to prevent safechuck from coming forward. Legally it's a farce and has no hope whatsoever for going forward, but it's just so damaging and depressing to have these 'friends' turning round and making these horrible allegations. I blame these lawyers too, they must be filling these men's heads with $signs whilst knowing they haven't got a leg to stand on.

And they worked on putting together this for 8 months apparently...

I agree, the lawyers must know they have minimal chance to go forward. I think the hope really is to put pressure on the Estate and try to make them settle or hope that the Judge would be swayed by it if there are more alleged victims.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I believe the plan was to get settlements, they did not anticipate the estate will fight them , or maybe they thought the $$$ was worth a try, considering their financial state.
 
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