Debates with the public

[MJresearcher]

As respect77 said, it's not likely that there will be any completely unbiased places anyone can go to if they want to learn about this. Isn't this guy capable of thinking for himself? What's wrong with reading something from a fan or even a hater as long as you know the difference between opinion and fact? In truth, even hater sites have some facts on there but it's pretty easy to see if something's twisted or an opinion is given, what's important is whether or not the information provided is factually accurate. If he brought the subject up he should have been prepared to listen. His comment about you defending MJ without facts is interesting. Did he expect you to present him with a heap of court documents and other information on the spot? It's actually not up to us to prove a negative in the first place, the burden of proof is always on those making the positive claim. Even if your friend doesn't claim MJ was guilty he still can't take the position of expecting you to prove a negative, and the burden of proof isn't something that only applies in a court room, it applies any time a positive claim is made about anything, period.

I very much prefer to discuss things like this online because it's easier and I and take my time to go over documents and books so I can properly source the information I'm giving, and I don't link to fan sites either. I prefer to give direct links to documents and give page numbers and names of books I'm using sources. It's much harder for people to complain about and dismiss sources when they're direct. If there happens to be more discussion between you and he has questions feel free to post them here and I'm sure we'll be able to help you out with it.

 

[MJresearcher]

This isn't going anywhere but it doesn't hurt to sharpen debating skills or prove that people who think they know better or are smarter than you actually don't have much of a clue. My comments next to the red.

 

[MJresearcher]

I love it when people keep repeating the same fallacies even after being told why something is a fallacy. I bet the MJ haters feel embarrassed when this happens since they end up looking like the crazier ones. Unfortunately I don't think this one is the brightest crayon in the box either which probably accounts for his lack of ability to debate. I also think it's funny that he referred to my previous post as an "essay". Interesting that anything more than a paragraph seems to fit the criteria of an essay to this man.

 

[barbee0715]

I think people were so conditioned to the idea that he was a molester that they just took that one line and twisted it to fit their own sick desires. I've seen people say "he admitted to sleeping with kids!", and it's pretty obvious they're referring to what he said in LWMJ. Apparently sleeping in the same bed as a kid means you're going to molest them. :crazy

I try not to argue with people about Michael anymore cause it gets so stressful because I know you can't make them listen. Unfortunately I found myself kinda doing that tonight with a good friend. He's pretty neutral about the whole thing and has said he doesn't care about controversy surrounding him. In fact he thinks it would be better if it got dropped and then everyone could move forward. But he accused me of defending a man with no facts. I wanted to link him to one of the many sites out there with info about the allegations but when I brought them up he didn't think they would be credible since they were run by fans. I was so intimidated and upset I couldn't bring myself to mention the books out there that could be seen as credible because I was certain he would shoot them down too. Are there any credible sources out there that aren't fan-operated? No offense to the fans out there who have worked hard to defend Michael; I just want to be better prepared in case it comes up again.

I know what you mean about fan-based sites-someone who wants to argue with you probably won't take anything like that as proof and will just say it was written by a "fanatical fan." (another pervasive myth fueled by the press).

I've also found that the people in real life that get angry at me about it don't really want any proof anyway. I had to make a rule with family and some close friends just not to mention Michael to me ever. A couple of times it's happened, and I guess they were "testing" me and I attacked back and somewhat freaked them out. I have tried to explain this, but when it comes to the allegations, Michael is like my child, and my love is unconditional-and I'll just instinctively go off and protect him.

I think the Geraldine Hughes piece is better than Aphrodite's book-a LOT of her book seems to be pandering to fans (to me). But if your friend really wants to see documentation, there's a lot of court documents that you could copy over from the fan sites, and there's also that 350 page FBI document that I downloaded from the fbi site-no one besides me has ever wanted to see it or read it, though.

 

[MJresearcher]

I've also found that the people in real life that get angry at me about it don't really want any proof anyway. I had to make a rule with family and some close friends just not to mention Michael to me ever. A couple of times it's happened, and I guess they were "testing" me and I attacked back and somewhat freaked them out. I have tried to explain this, but when it comes to the allegations, Michael is like my child, and my love is unconditional-and I'll just instinctively go off and protect him.

I think the Geraldine Hughes piece is better than Aphrodite's book-a LOT of her book seems to be pandering to fans (to me). But if your friend really wants to see documentation, there's a lot of court documents that you could copy over from the fan sites, and there's also that 350 page FBI document that I downloaded from the fbi site-no one besides me has ever wanted to see it or read it, though.

True, I've only had one person get angry at me about it in person and that was my uncle. He has a bad temper and never likes being told that he might be wrong about something, he had no interest in listening so I walked away. What annoys me most about people like this is their attitude. So many people who get angry about this insist on attacking people on a personal level and saying the person is "stupid" or "delusional" and doing so in front of other people. That indicates poor character and a lack of maturity to me. When they refuse to listen to anything contrary to their view they also show arrogance and bigotry but insist that we're the problem. People who aren't interested in looking at the evidence seem to be the most arrogant, they're so convinced of their position that they don't think there's anything that can change their mind and refuse to even listen. People like that are infuriating and don't deserve your time. They should also respect your boundaries and agree to disagree and leave it alone if they can't engage in a civil adult discussion.

 

[MJresearcher]

 

[ShipOfFools]

I think what angers people is that pedophilia is so damaging that it causes people to react in anger, without thinking.

If anybody actually did some research, they would realize Michael Jackson wasn't a pedophile. But they refuse to do that. And these are usually the people that blindly follow what anybody tells them, and refuse to think for themselves.

 

[analogue]

You know you've won the argument when the other person has to resort to name calling

 

[terrell]

I think what angers people is that pedophilia is so damaging that it causes people to react in anger, without thinking.

If anybody actually did some research, they would realize Michael Jackson wasn't a pedophile. But they refuse to do that. And these are usually the people that blindly follow what anybody tells them, and refuse to think for themselves.

Most people knew MJ was not pedo that is why he was loved and celebrated when he died. Only haters and people who are jealous of MJ want to think he was a pedo for their own self worth.

You know you've won the argument when the other person has to resort to name calling

Exactly. That means "hater" also who is jealous. Also when you talk to someone on the internet who thinks that about MJ, they can never give you facts.

That person sound like nut and clearly do not know anything. if MJ had paid alot of families, that would have came out in court in 2005. THAT IS A PAPER TRIAL which was LIE. If these families exist, that would have been presented in court with the evience to back it up. Once again, that is some nut sitting in a basement with nothing to do. I would not be surprise if that person is a real pedo.

True, I've only had one person get angry at me about it in person and that was my uncle. He has a bad temper and never likes being told that he might be wrong about something, he had no interest in listening so I walked away. What annoys me most about people like this is their attitude. So many people who get angry about this insist on attacking people on a personal level and saying the person is "stupid" or "delusional" and doing so in front of other people. That indicates poor character and a lack of maturity to me. When they refuse to listen to anything contrary to their view they also show arrogance and bigotry but insist that we're the problem. People who aren't interested in looking at the evidence seem to be the most arrogant, they're so convinced of their position that they don't think there's anything that can change their mind and refuse to even listen. People like that are infuriating and don't deserve your time. They should also respect your boundaries and agree to disagree and leave it alone if they can't engage in a civil adult discussion.

Let me tell you something, if MJ was alive and these people who trash talk him were to be in a room and MJ walk in, these would be the same fools who will pee in their pants at the sight on MJ and even go up to MJ and say "I love you" blah, blah, blah. When you find people who do this to it, they do it because they think it gets to YOU because you like MJ. and some people if you say the sky is blue, they will say it is red all because they think it will get to you.

MJresercher, regardless, that nut knows you are telling the truth.

I think people were so conditioned to the idea that he was a molester that they just took that one line and twisted it to fit their own sick desires. I've seen people say "he admitted to sleeping with kids!", and it's pretty obvious they're referring to what he said in LWMJ. Apparently sleeping in the same bed as a kid means you're going to molest them. :crazy

I try not to argue with people about Michael anymore cause it gets so stressful because I know you can't make them listen. Unfortunately I found myself kinda doing that tonight with a good friend. He's pretty neutral about the whole thing and has said he doesn't care about controversy surrounding him. In fact he thinks it would be better if it got dropped and then everyone could move forward. But he accused me of defending a man with no facts. I wanted to link him to one of the many sites out there with info about the allegations but when I brought them up he didn't think they would be credible since they were run by fans. I was so intimidated and upset I couldn't bring myself to mention the books out there that could be seen as credible because I was certain he would shoot them down too. Are there any credible sources out there that aren't fan-operated? No offense to the fans out there who have worked hard to defend Michael; I just want to be better prepared in case it comes up again.

Defending a man who no facts (MJ had a trial); can these FEW people who thinks that about MJ show FACTS that MJ abuse a child? NO. Where is these folks facts. That is what you should have said.

I have said at this point we as fans should not care what a few folks think. YEs, debate them but if they do not want to hear it, so what. At the end of the day, MICHAEL JACKSON will live on and be loved and celebrated each year which PROVES how much this man is and was loved in life and death. There are school functions in his name with adults, teenagers, and children, there are dance parties contribute to him. when he died, the WORLD almost shut down, his memorial was set up in theaters around the countries and they were full of people. He sold out 50 shows and was in demand in America. I can go on. To me, THIS IS WHAT PROVES HOW MOST PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT MJ. Lovers of MJ(or any one) show it, lovers of a person do not go around talking hate and believing claims that were proven IN COURT to be false. And the truth, some people just want to hate in order to make themselves feel good and to hate on a man who had achieved great success and wealth (and some of it is racial. hate to see a successful black man). To this day, there are some people who still think President Obama is not an American and all evidence proves he is American (and he won TWICE to be president). Go figure. This is how stupid some people can be.

I think what angers people is that pedophilia is so damaging that it causes people to react in anger, without thinking.

If anybody actually did some research, they would realize Michael Jackson wasn't a pedophile. But they refuse to do that. And these are usually the people that blindly follow what anybody tells them, and refuse to think for themselves.

And that is why some people use things like accusing people of pedophilia, rape, etc because they know many people react without thinking if it I not true.

I also say some folks need to be careful in believing lies on other people. IT can come back to you. Look at Gene Simmons who is as two faced as a 6 dollar bill. He talked trash about MJ and look, HIS HOME IS UNDER INVESTIGATION for CHILD underage material (isn't that ironic). Now, if his home cleared and his name is cleared, are we still to believe he still was involved in someway even if the evidence show Gene has nothing to do with it or did not do it?

 

[InvincibleMJ]

terrel, please use the multi-quote button.

 

[MJresearcher]

I'm bored with this guy now since he keeps making the same bad arguments, so I've left him with this:

That's probably the most impolite I've been towards him and it's not even that bad. By not playing the same game of name calling I think I've showed I'm actually the rational one in this discussion. I think he was giving smart arse replies because it's all he had and I'm not even sure that he understood half of what I said.

 

[ShipOfFools]

Most people knew MJ was not pedo that is why he was loved and celebrated when he died. Only haters and people who are jealous of MJ want to think he was a pedo for their own self worth.



Exactly. That means "hater" also who is jealous. Also when you talk to someone on the internet who thinks that about MJ, they can never give you facts.

That person sound like nut and clearly do not know anything. if MJ had paid alot of families, that would have came out in court in 2005. THAT IS A PAPER TRIAL which was LIE. If these families exist, that would have been presented in court with the evience to back it up. Once again, that is some nut sitting in a basement with nothing to do. I would not be surprise if that person is a real pedo.



Let me tell you something, if MJ was alive and these people who trash talk him were to be in a room and MJ walk in, these would be the same fools who will pee in their pants at the sight on MJ and even go up to MJ and say "I love you" blah, blah, blah. When you find people who do this to it, they do it because they think it gets to YOU because you like MJ. and some people if you say the sky is blue, they will say it is red all because they think it will get to you.

MJresercher, regardless, that nut knows you are telling the truth.



Defending a man who no facts (MJ had a trial); can these FEW people who thinks that about MJ show FACTS that MJ abuse a child? NO. Where is these folks facts. That is what you should have said.

I have said at this point we as fans should not care what a few folks think. YEs, debate them but if they do not want to hear it, so what. At the end of the day, MICHAEL JACKSON will live on and be loved and celebrated each year which PROVES how much this man is and was loved in life and death. There are school functions in his name with adults, teenagers, and children, there are dance parties contribute to him. when he died, the WORLD almost shut down, his memorial was set up in theaters around the countries and they were full of people. He sold out 50 shows and was in demand in America. I can go on. To me, THIS IS WHAT PROVES HOW MOST PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT MJ. Lovers of MJ(or any one) show it, lovers of a person do not go around talking hate and believing claims that were proven IN COURT to be false. And the truth, some people just want to hate in order to make themselves feel good and to hate on a man who had achieved great success and wealth (and some of it is racial. hate to see a successful black man). To this day, there are some people who still think President Obama is not an American and all evidence proves he is American (and he won TWICE to be president). Go figure. This is how stupid some people can be.



And that is why some people use things like accusing people of pedophilia, rape, etc because they know many people react without thinking if it I not true.

I also say some folks need to be careful in believing lies on other people. IT can come back to you. Look at Gene Simmons who is as two faced as a 6 dollar bill. He talked trash about MJ and look, HIS HOME IS UNDER INVESTIGATION for CHILD underage material (isn't that ironic). Now, if his home cleared and his name is cleared, are we still to believe he still was involved in someway even if the evidence show Gene has nothing to do with it or did not do it?

I'm quoting the whole thing because I'm on my iPad, and I don't know how to edit the quote down.

Yes, I agree with you. At least 75% of people in the world don't believe Michael Jackson was a pedophile, and never believed the allegations. Unfortunately, the 25% that did, or do, have a loud voice. We hear them on the news and they get confrontational about it.

My mom believed that he might be, so she was very disappointed in me when I started getting back into his music in 2001 (I was raised on MJ, and she was a fan going way back to when the J5 first debuted, so there's some history there.) It wasn't until around 2006 or 2007, when I showed her the court documents and discussed this openly, that she made up her mind that he wasn't one. She even watched his memorial on TV and cried, and she demanded that she got to watch This Is It, that we got the Michael and Xscape albums (I bought her an extra copy of both), and she is always asking me "So, what's going on in the world of Michael Jackson today?"

My grandma, who was very conservative, told me that she didn't believe the second allegations. She hated Michael Jackson's music (she passed away from cancer in 2011), but she said, "I feel bad for him, because all those people are just after his money." This is someone who, until recently, was a bit bigoted towards African Americans (I am white) and who changed in her elder years.

I never believed that Michael was a pedophile, but when the first allegations came out (I was 11), I put aside my Michael records and said that I would not listen to them again until it was disproven. Pretty adult for a child. Then I got into other music, and it wasn't until I was 18 or 19 that I got back into his music (I had completely missed out on the HIStory and Blood On The Dance Floor eras.)

I think people that believe Michael is/was a pedophile either fall into one of two categories. One, someone like my mom who believe it "might" be true, and they don't want to take a chance. With this kind of person, I'm more inclined to be sympathetic, because this person is just being cautious, and they simply haven't read the facts and are not educated. And two, it's someone who has read the facts and simply do not believe them, or have read other things that are false and believed them. This second person usually cannot be helped, and I either stop discussing Michael Jackson with them, or, if they are hateful about it, I cut them out of my life.

 

[KOPV]

I could write paragraph after paragraph explaining 'haters' actions and why they are the way they are but... It's simply called 'Brain Washing' - the same way people fallow cultic behavior is the same way people just eat up what picture is presented to them about Michael..

 

[barbee0715]

Most people knew MJ was not pedo that is why he was loved and celebrated when he died. Only haters and people who are jealous of MJ want to think he was a pedo for their own self worth.

I have said at this point we as fans should not care what a few folks think. YEs, debate them but if they do not want to hear it, so what. At the end of the day, MICHAEL JACKSON will live on and be loved and celebrated each year which PROVES how much this man is and was loved in life and death. There are school functions in his name with adults, teenagers, and children, there are dance parties contribute to him. when he died, the WORLD almost shut down, his memorial was set up in theaters around the countries and they were full of people. He sold out 50 shows and was in demand in America. I can go on. To me, THIS IS WHAT PROVES HOW MOST PEOPLE FEEL ABOUT MJ. Lovers of MJ(or any one) show it, lovers of a person do not go around talking hate and believing claims that were proven IN COURT to be false. And the truth, some people just want to hate in order to make themselves feel good and to hate on a man who had achieved great success and wealth (and some of it is racial. hate to see a successful black man). To this day, there are some people who still think President Obama is not an American and all evidence proves he is American (and he won TWICE to be president). Go figure. This is how stupid some people can be.

I just wanted to say that although I don't know any Michael supporters at all in real life, I do agree with you that the majority of people never believed that Michael was guilty of pedophilia-eccentric, yes. Pedophile, no. I was gobsmakked at the outpouring of grief when he died and the fact that all the television channels here virtually shut down for weeks showing people grieving, mourning, and in agony, and discussing him and his legacy until his memorial and beyond. I truly thought I was totally alone in my love and unconditional support for Michael-until that day. It was quite a shock-

And to confirm this, this article came up on my news feed today. It's the Oklahoma State government Mental Health department chief doing a dance off with other government agencies-and she's throwing the challenge to the State Children's Welfare Division. Now, would any state government agency do that with a person believed to really be a pedophile? (especially departments dealing with child abuse?)





Ginnie Graham: See Oklahoma's top mental health officer dress, dance as Michael Jackson

Posted: Thursday, September 3, 2015 5:35 pm
BY GINNIE GRAHAM News Columnist | 0 comments
No one can claim that Oklahoma's leader in the state mental health and substance abuse agency isn't game for a challenge.
Terri White summoned the spirit of Michael Jackson to recreate the "Bad" video. She's the leader of the pack with some impressive hair leading the way.


I would like to know where her staff located all the leather gear.



The video is part of a #JustKeepDancing challenge to raise awareness for pediatric cancer.

The Oklahoma Health Care Authority called out the mental health and substance abuse agency. Now, the gauntlet has been thrown to the child welfare division of the Oklahoma Department of Human Services.

This is the most fabulous idea coming out of state government. And, it's for a good cause.

It would answer the long-burning question: Who is the best dancer in state government?

Right now, Terri White is ahead.




Ginnie Graham 918-581-8376
ginnie.graham@tulsaworld.com

 

[terrell]

Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

I think fans should pick their fights wisely and when you see it's worth - ie. when there is an openness to information. I don't think a forum and thread like what you described is necessarily the place where you will meet such openness.

I agree. I always say you can tell if someone view is based on being a hater and someone who just does not know and want to be fair. This is also not limited to MJ either. When people bring up about what someone look like, how someone sing, etc, to determine if someone committed a crime or did something wrong, that tells me their view is based on prejudice or jealousy. Those things have nothing to do with if someone did anything wrong.

 

[terrell]

I'm quoting the whole thing because I'm on my iPad, and I don't know how to edit the quote down.

Yes, I agree with you. At least 75% of people in the world don't believe Michael Jackson was a pedophile, and never believed the allegations. Unfortunately, the 25% that did, or do, have a loud voice. We hear them on the news and they get confrontational about it.

My mom believed that he might be, so she was very disappointed in me when I started getting back into his music in 2001 (I was raised on MJ, and she was a fan going way back to when the J5 first debuted, so there's some history there.) It wasn't until around 2006 or 2007, when I showed her the court documents and discussed this openly, that she made up her mind that he wasn't one. She even watched his memorial on TV and cried, and she demanded that she got to watch This Is It, that we got the Michael and Xscape albums (I bought her an extra copy of both), and she is always asking me "So, what's going on in the world of Michael Jackson today?"

My grandma, who was very conservative, told me that she didn't believe the second allegations. She hated Michael Jackson's music (she passed away from cancer in 2011), but she said, "I feel bad for him, because all those people are just after his money." This is someone who, until recently, was a bit bigoted towards African Americans (I am white) and who changed in her elder years.

I never believed that Michael was a pedophile, but when the first allegations came out (I was 11), I put aside my Michael records and said that I would not listen to them again until it was disproven. Pretty adult for a child. Then I got into other music, and it wasn't until I was 18 or 19 that I got back into his music (I had completely missed out on the HIStory and Blood On The Dance Floor eras.)

I think people that believe Michael is/was a pedophile either fall into one of two categories. One, someone like my mom who believe it "might" be true, and they don't want to take a chance. With this kind of person, I'm more inclined to be sympathetic, because this person is just being cautious, and they simply haven't read the facts and are not educated. And two, it's someone who has read the facts and simply do not believe them, or have read other things that are false and believed them. This second person usually cannot be helped, and I either stop discussing Michael Jackson with them, or, if they are hateful about it, I cut them out of my life.

But see, I can still respect your mother. She is OPEN to know the facts. that is the difference between people like her compare to a hater. For me, i have worked in law enforcement since 1993 (I was working at the Board of Pardon and Paroles when the first accusation came). Even though I loved MJ, I stay open to know what happen.

 

[KOPV]

people need to remember that haters GET OFF on fighting about this topic.. It's there way to cyber bully without consequence.... Sometimes educating without an open window for them to listen only gets them going even more... If you can see they are stubborn and childishly attacking MJ and maybe even you.. They are not willing to listen, so don't stress yourself.. The only effect your going to have is giving the hater some attention and stressing yourself out.


Raise awareness, not you bloodpressure! lol

 

[MJresearcher]

They get off on it for sure, if they're arguing a certain point I'll answer it more for the sake of anyone reading, but when they start being stupid and going around in circles I forget about it. These people often make me laugh because they show me they have no clue. If a person's arguments all fall back on assumptions it's because that's all they have, and that's a very weak position.

 

[barbee0715]

They get off on it for sure, if they're arguing a certain point I'll answer it more for the sake of anyone reading, but when they start being stupid and going around in circles I forget about it. These people often make me laugh because they show me they have no clue. If a person's arguments all fall back on assumptions it's because that's all they have, and that's a very weak position.

Yeah, really. The thing I respect most about you participating in these debates is for all the people sitting out there reading-ghosting the threads-because their minds are open and it's good for them to read facts.

The stupidest things get argued about-right now (and I just couldn't help it) I'm in an argument on Yahoo about Michael "stealing" the Beatles songs away from Paul McCartney-which is absolutely not true, the entire sale and process, etc. is documented and all of this is based on just a bunch of really old interviews that Paul gave whining and crying about his blasted catalog. I hate seeing things so misconstrued-but I'm going to have to back out of it-it's just stupid.

I do know that a lot of the articles I read and people comment about the allegations usually result in the people doing a lot of name calling-instead of reasonable debate and argument. And I think people do it just to get the other person's goat. I even had a friend of mine (a 40 year long friendship too, mind you) and we were discussing a Woody Allen movie. I have always loved Woody since "Manhattan" with the gorgeous Gershwin (my fave) music and beautiful shots of New York City-he has just always touched me with his vulnerable women characters and I swear the thoughts that go on in his crazy head are the same as mine.
Anyway, my friend has just recently discovered his genius and we were just discussing his movies, when all of the sudden out of the blue he says, "you know, I just realized-you really have a thing for pedophiles".

Totally uncalled for. Later, I realized he thought he was being funny, but It threw me for a second and then I hung up on him. We haven't talked since. If we do, he had better apologize to me profusely.

 

[MJresearcher]

Yeah, really. The thing I respect most about you participating in these debates is for all the people sitting out there reading-ghosting the threads-because their minds are open and it's good for them to read facts.

The stupidest things get argued about-right now (and I just couldn't help it) I'm in an argument on Yahoo about Michael "stealing" the Beatles songs away from Paul McCartney-which is absolutely not true, the entire sale and process, etc. is documented and all of this is based on just a bunch of really old interviews that Paul gave whining and crying about his blasted catalog. I hate seeing things so misconstrued-but I'm going to have to back out of it-it's just stupid.

I do know that a lot of the articles I read and people comment about the allegations usually result in the people doing a lot of name calling-instead of reasonable debate and argument. And I think people do it just to get the other person's goat. I even had a friend of mine (a 40 year long friendship too, mind you) and we were discussing a Woody Allen movie. I have always loved Woody since "Manhattan" with the gorgeous Gershwin (my fave) music and beautiful shots of New York City-he has just always touched me with his vulnerable women characters and I swear the thoughts that go on in his crazy head are the same as mine.
Anyway, my friend has just recently discovered his genius and we were just discussing his movies, when all of the sudden out of the blue he says, "you know, I just realized-you really have a thing for pedophiles".

Totally uncalled for. Later, I realized he thought he was being funny, but It threw me for a second and then I hung up on him. We haven't talked since. If we do, he had better apologize to me profusely.

Thank you

I was one of the people on the sidelines reading discussions between fans and haters on the MJ facebook page back when MJ first died and the page had a discussion board. That's when I started looking into it myself, had it not been for vigilant fans I wouldn't have known where to start looking for information. Studying the claims about MJ taught me about law, logical fallacies, critical thinking, how to evaluate and determine reliable sources and information, how to navigate court websites and information, and how to debate and write better. It also gave me an interest in investigative work so I did a cert III in investigative services and now I'm a qualified and licenced investigator. I never would have expected to learn all the things I have from studying MJ but there it is, and it all started from reading debates between fans and haters. It's amazing that something seemingly insignificant can bring about such a change in thinking and life in general.

Snopes has an article about the whole thing with MJ and Paul McCartney and the catalog, they're usually pretty good with facts.

http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/jackson.asp

I haven't looked into the catalog thing much and I noticed that a lot of the sources the Snopes articles used for this were media articles. If anything in it is wrong I'd more than happy to accept that.

People using personal attacks shows a lot of immaturity and doesn't make them look good. I think a lot of people have trouble understanding that attacking someone's argument is not the same as attacking the person using the argument, people take it too personally. Your friend should have put held back and thought some more before he opened his mouth, that definitely wasn't a smart thing to say.

 

[ShipOfFools]

But see, I can still respect your mother. She is OPEN to know the facts. that is the difference between people like her compare to a hater. For me, i have worked in law enforcement since 1993 (I was working at the Board of Pardon and Paroles when the first accusation came). Even though I loved MJ, I stay open to know what happen.

I know how terrible child abuse is, so I don't blame people for disliking someone who could have done what they accused Michael of doing.

What I don't get is why someone would choose to stay ignorant to the facts. Sadly, a lot of people absolutely refuse to be open minded and objective about this.

 

[Bad7]

I know how terrible child abuse is, so I don't blame people for disliking someone who could have done what they accused Michael of doing.

What I don't get is why someone would choose to stay ignorant to the facts. Sadly, a lot of people absolutely refuse to be open minded and objective about this.

A few reasons why they remain ignorant. 1. Trolling. 2. To be different. 3. Some don't read both sides of an argument. They have an agenda where, let's take Wade... immediately they latch onto his story and don't question it. They ignore all the contradictions and holes as that doesn't fit their agenda. They use sources such as Diane Dimond and Victor Guiterrez as it fits the agenda. Tom Sneddon's antics are ignored as he fits their agenda. And the rest.

Overall, I don't understand how people can have such a hatred towards somebody. Especially given the fact he was never deemed guilty in a court of law. Add to that they actually take the mickey out of the situation. So, basically, these people who are so adamant of his guilt totally ignore they're showing no respect to the people they deem victims.

I believe they're best ignored. You see the ignorance all over the internet and it's just not worth the hassle. They will never change their minds. If Jordy Chandler came out tomorrow and said it was all lies they'd either a. Latch onto the other cases or b. Say fans must of hassled him and sent him threats or some other nonsense. After all they say in 1993 he bought his way out of it and in 2005 his celebrity got him off. It's impossible for MJ to win either way in the eyes of the haters.

 

[#MJforever57]

people need to remember that haters GET OFF on fighting about this topic.. It's there way to cyber bully without consequence.... Sometimes educating without an open window for them to listen only gets them going even more... If you can see they are stubborn and childishly attacking MJ and maybe even you.. They are not willing to listen, so don't stress yourself.. The only effect your going to have is giving the hater some attention and stressing yourself out.


Raise awareness, not you bloodpressure! lol

Thanks you so much for your post i ran into a problem at work i try to give them the facts as i know it it was a waste of my time no matter what i said their mind was already made up Michael was guilty so i just left it alone and i feel so much better now . Thank you thank you.

A few reasons why they remain ignorant. 1. Trolling. 2. To be different. 3. Some don't read both sides of an argument. They have an agenda where, let's take Wade... immediately they latch onto his story and don't question it. They ignore all the contradictions and holes as that doesn't fit their agenda. They use sources such as Diane Dimond and Victor Guiterrez as it fits the agenda. Tom Sneddon's antics are ignored as he fits their agenda. And the rest.

Overall, I don't understand how people can have such a hatred towards somebody. Especially given the fact he was never deemed guilty in a court of law. Add to that they actually take the mickey out of the situation. So, basically, these people who are so adamant of his guilt totally ignore they're showing no respect to the people they deem victims.

I believe they're best ignored. You see the ignorance all over the internet and it's just not worth the hassle. They will never change their minds. If Jordy Chandler came out tomorrow and said it was all lies they'd either a. Latch onto the other cases or b. Say fans must of hassled him and sent him threats or some other nonsense. After all they say in 1993 he bought his way out of it and in 2005 his celebrity got him off. It's impossible for MJ to win either way in the eyes of the haters.

Everything you have said in your post is so true why is it so easy for the ppls to believe a lies and not the true i just do not get it. You are right in the bold also.

 

[Bad7]

Thanks you so much for your post i ran into a problem at work i try to give them the facts as i know it it was a waste of my time no matter what i said their mind was already made up Michael was guilty so i just left it alone and i feel so much better now . Thank you thank you.



Everything you have said in your post is so true why is it so easy for the ppls to believe a lies and not the true i just do not get it. You are right in the bold also.

They're hateful people who have an agenda. Even if Jordy and Gavin both said tomorrow 'nothing happened' their blogs would still exist. They'll never admit to being wrong. To dedicate a blog to your dislike of somebody is really sad and pathetic. The good news is their little crusade hasn't effected MJ's legacy.

What part did you bold? Quoted messages appear in bold automatically.

 

[#MJforever57]

This part.

Latch onto the other cases or b. Say fans must of hassled him and sent him threats or some other nonsense. After all they say in 1993 he bought his way out of it and in 2005 his celebrity got him off. It's impossible for MJ to win either way in the eyes of the haters.

 

[Bad7]

Currently having an email debate with somebody. Well, I say email debate... it's basically a case of I put forward valid points which get ignored, as there is no response, and the other person gives paltry reasoning. This person then urged me to read the articles on their site so I did... after all I'm fair.

One article regarding claims by Adrian McManus. I mentioned McManus' history in my follow up email... this was ignored.
Another article citing the fake FBI files that claiming families had been 'paid off'. When citing this was fake and the following 'file' (http://michaeljacksonallegations.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/1-890x1024.jpg) doesn't even look remotely real this was also promptly ignored.
Citing James Safechuck's accusations I mentioned the flaws in his declaration and the suspicious fact him and Wade share the same lawyer... was I rebuffed? Nope... ignored again.

In the same email I asked if this person had any actual, substantiated, evidence. In response I got a paragraph citing the jury instructions said the jury only had to find MJ shared a bed with children for sexual gratification, not that he molested them. I'm in the process of reading the entirety of the 2005 transcripts so could somebody please confirm if the stated reason is legitimate?

This person went onto say the jury ignored the aforementioned instructions (God forbid they thought there was no sexual gratification).

The email finished with me being told if I don't see MJ sleeping in bed with boys was for sexual gratification I have problems.

I have responded. I couldn't let the 'I have problems' line go unnoticed.

I responded with:

I have problems, eh? Given that you use The Sunday People and Daily Mail as sources for deeming MJ to be guilty and not a single shred of actual evidence I think that's rather ironic. Another problem is you deeming MJ to be guilty and yet when asked for evidence you can't give me any. Instead, rather than refuting what I say, you can't. You think MJ was guilty in 2005 yet the story makes no sense.

I also added further in my email:

Imagine a jury convened and you were lead prosecutor to try and put Michael Jackson behind bars. The only argument you have is 'he slept in the same bed as other children'... do you believe the jury would return with the word 'guilty' in response?

I wonder if this time I'll get a proper response.

 

[barbee0715]

^^That doesn't really sound like a debate. Debaters argue back and forth-not ignore.

 

[HIStory]

In the same email I asked if this person had any actual, substantiated, evidence. In response I got a paragraph citing the jury instructions said the jury only had to find MJ shared a bed with children for sexual gratification, not that he molested them. I'm in the process of reading the entirety of the 2005 transcripts so could somebody please confirm if the stated reason is legitimate?

I don't have the jury instructions but it doesn't even make sense. How is "sharing bed with children for sexual gratification" different from molestation? I like it when people make up BS just to try "win" an argument. LOL. And how does sharing bed with someone necessarily involve sexual gratification?

The jury found MJ not guilty in all 14 charges brought against him. The charges were NOT "sharing bed for sexual gratification" but "lewd act upon a child", "attempt at lewd act upon a child" etc. The jury has to address the charges. They cannot just "ignore" a charge like your friend implied. LOL. That's such a stupid thing to say.

The reading of the verdict clearly stated what they decided about:

"Lewd act upon a child" - not guilty.
"Attempt at lewd act upon a child" - not guilty.
"Serving a child alcohol in order to attempt a lewd act upon him" - not guilty.

Etc.

If there were instructions towards them that they had to find that MJ shared bed with children for sexual gratification then they obviously did not find that. As simple as that. BTW, MJ and Arvizo probably did not even share a bed - ever. They once slept in the same room - on that one occasion in 2000 where Frank Cascio was also in the room. Arvizo claimed they did share a bed later, in 2003, but he was caught in many lies on the stand and the jury obviously did not believe him. Actually when you look at the timeline and the totality of the case I don't believe MJ ever slept in a bed with Gavin. MJ was running and hiding from that boy in 2003, not trying to be with him.

If he ignores any evidence or argument then I don't think it's worth dealing with him. He is obviously one of the people who WANTS MJ to be guilty no matter what and he will not let himself be bothered by the actual facts of the case. When someone is prejudiced and closed-minded to arguments you cannot do anything about it.

 

[#MJforever57]

people need to remember that haters GET OFF on fighting about this topic.. It's there way to cyber bully without consequence.... Sometimes educating without an open window for them to listen only gets them going even more... If you can see they are stubborn and childishly attacking MJ and maybe even you.. They are not willing to listen, so don't stress yourself.. The only effect your going to have is giving the hater some attention and stressing yourself out.


Raise awareness, not you bloodpressure! lol

You are so right thank you for your post.

 

[redfrog]

Does anyone know how Gavin Arvizo learned that MJ called wine Jesus Juice?

I know that Chris Carter knew it, Frank Cascio and the other Cascio kids knew it and they both interacted with Star and Gavin.
The staff probably knew it too. Star Arvizo discovered during the flight from Miami that MJ had wine in his can.
He might have asked the Cascio kids about it later.



Because this is one of the most often use ammunition against Mj I'd like to know for sure.