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Debates with the public

Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

MJsBollywoodGirl7 said:
I am still an MJ fan. But I am not the MJ fan that I used to be.:( It was just yesterday I had yelled at my MJ hating mother for ripping up one of my MJ posters. I had found the pieces in the kitchen trash can. She had no business of doing that at all. It was too late to take it out of the trash. Since other trash got mixed in with it. Even though I don't watch and listen to him like I used to. I still wear my 3 MJ necklaces 24/7. And a MJ t-shirt every single day.
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That sounds pretty hardcore to me. I don't even own an MJ T-shirt :blush:
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

Seriously though. What you need to do is challenge them at Summer Slam
 
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No counter arguments, he just continues pretending he knows what he's talking about and plays the "I can't be bothered telling you how this works" card. Bull! He's been caught out getting his facts wrong and now he has nowhere to go so he tries to say I don't know. He's well and truly lost this one. The long comment I posted after Dan earlier in the piece was deleted, I'm guessing it was because of the links, maybe they don't like people using links.

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It looks like links are allowed in posts so I'm wondering if someone who didn't like what I said reported my comment. Wouldn't surprise me.
 
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Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

I live in New Zealand, but the forum board in question is based in Australia, a country known for its abysmal racial and homosexual laws compared to other Developed countries. In Australia, gays still can't marry thanks to a heavy church based lobby of politicians. The board is run by old white men aged between 55 and 80 and would easily boot me off it for expressing views against the pale, male and stale ethos that runs through it. As I contribute a lot to the board, I do not want to rock the boat. They calim to be racially open and free, but in reality the membership is 99% white and male and they get annoyed when I mention that I am not. They also have several dirty joke and dirty picture threads that always humiliate Blacks, gays, aborigines, Maoris, disabled people and women.
The man who runs it thinks all Indians are crooks and all NZers are dole bludgers and criminals festering off Australia.

Yeah maybe I should move on from that board.
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

Bringing Brighter Days said:
Michael was not criticized during Off The Wall and Thriller
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Aaaugh!! Do you mean to tell me that this almost 30 years of hell was masterminded by Quincy back when he had his nervous breakdown and Michael turned to the B team to put together the Bad album??

It was all a revenge plot all along?? This explains everything!!
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

barbee0715 said:
Aaaugh!! Do you mean to tell me that this almost 30 years of hell was masterminded by Quincy back when he had his nervous breakdown and Michael turned to the B team to put together the Bad album??

It was all a revenge plot all along?? This explains everything!!
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Maybe that's why Quincy's so mad these days :secret: haha.
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

^^yeah, apparently mad since 86 when the backlash started. Guess he's suing since the diabolical plan didn't stop the profits from pouring in.
:)
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

barbee0715 said:
Aaaugh!! Do you mean to tell me that this almost 30 years of hell was masterminded by Quincy back when he had his nervous breakdown and Michael turned to the B team to put together the Bad album??

It was all a revenge plot all along?? This explains everything!!
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Huuuhh?
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

I think this thread should be moved to Trials & Tribulations.
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

Bringing Brighter Days said:
Michael was not criticized during Off The Wall and Thriller
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And you are wrong. Remember that rumour that said he was going to have a sex change and marry Clifton Davies? That was even before OTW. He hardly came of age and he already had to face BS like that. During Thriller I remember Louis Farrakhan calling him a sissy and a bad role model for young black men. The criticism was not as widespread as later, but it was there from the very beginning and it always had a lot to do with being different and not a stereotypical macho male. That later it started to be louder and more and more harsh has to do with many factors, some of those might have been mistakes by Michael in communication or else, but none of that was a good reason for the extent of bullying and bashing, injustice and unfairness and I am not going to blame the victim here in order to defend bullies.
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

respect77 Good points, MJ was criticised by the media from the start. But he got no more criticism than anyone else, and most of it was so far fetched no one would have believed it (The Clifton Davis story). Starting in 1986 with the Hyperbaric chamber was really when the criticism started and then in 1987 when he bought the elephant mans bones and the Natural History Museum offered to swap them for Michael Jackson's original nose.
One book I read even suggested he started the other character for publicity. Boy did that blow up in his face. In reality even up to 1993, it was still cool to like MJ as he had the awesome music and was a great dancer, but the 1993 Child Abuse allegations was when it all changed and we hit defence mode. Overnight MJ became something less than great and the tabloids moved in for the kill.
Thanks for your feedback though, you helped me to realise it is wise not to argue with people who are so stuck in their ways and just move on. You guys are the best.:chillin:
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

Being an MJ fan is simply not for the faint-hearted. It has never been since I became a fan at the end of the 80s as a child. Even back then I remember class-mates calling him this or that and that was before the allegations. The funny thing is those who bashed him the loudest were fans of bands which are long forgotten since. LOL.

People calling him a "fag" was always a thing as long as I remember, heck I remember a magazine here doing so before it was not PC to say such things in magazines. I even have an old book calling him things which would not be PC today and some of which were extremely rude. And like I said this was before the allegations. People were simply bothered by his difference and they were jealous of the fact that he dared to be himself. Or they were narrow-minded about so called "normality".

And for those who want their star to be "normal" by the everyday Joe's standards and to be uncontroversial and safe and want his life to be all cheesy fairy tale with only ups and no downs, Michael Jackson may not be for you then, but I am telling you a Greek drama is eventually always more rewarding and more memorable than some cheesy fake soap opera.
 
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Debates with the public
People trying to shame you for defending Michael
How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?
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Threads Merged. Please keep the discussion about haters in here, there's no need for more threads about this subject.
 
MOD NOTE

Please stay on topic. This is not the "general negative discussion about MJ" thread.

If you're not sure what this thread is about - Read the first page.
 
I think the discussion is interesting but like the Mod said it's off topic. So I suggest that the mods split this thread and the off topic posts that have to do with his music etc. be placed in a new thread in the Michael Mania section so that the discussion can continue without being OT.
 
^^i agree. It's because it's the merge of 3 threads and the last one was "how do you deal with people who criticize Michael" which could be concerning the allegations, his looks, his music, anything.

My lengthy post was bc of the statement that he wasn't criticized during OTW and Thriller. And that he lost half his fan base.

I don't know if the mods can separate those posts for that thread out but it should prob be in Trials still because it could possibly be referring to allegations sometimes.

We recently had another thread derailed about 'No Sleeep' that turned into an interesting discussion about reinvention, sexism and ageism in pop. I wanted to start a thread about that to continue that discussion but didn't know what section to put it in and some of those pertinent posts are gone.
 
That would be good, this thread has become messy and confusing enough since two other threads were merged into mine. I get not wanting to have a bunch of different threads all on the same thing, the downside is that it's all over the place now.

The guy on YouTube pretending to be a former lawyer hasn't replied to me again, he may not have wanted to admit it but I think he knew he was beaten. In other discussions I've had on a Facebook group in the past someone raising questions and possibilities about the allegations against MJ was accused of "victim blaming" when that's not what he was doing at all. Has anyone here had that accusation thrown at them?
 
^^i have just the other day. I don't go anywhere near the detail you guys do bc I don't have an organized folder of facts, but sometimes I have to speak out and correct something that I know is a tabloid trash quote.

I was actually 'date raped' in the early 80s (before they had a term for it) so I'm not about to ever blame a victim. I've never told a soul except my mother.
I didn't tell this guy either. I just dropped out of the convo. He was just attacking me bc he didn't have a better argument.
 
MJresearcher said:
The guy on YouTube pretending to be a former lawyer hasn't replied to me again, he may not have wanted to admit it but I think he knew he was beaten. In other discussions I've had on a Facebook group in the past someone raising questions and possibilities about the allegations against MJ was accused of "victim blaming" when that's not what he was doing at all. Has anyone here had that accusation thrown at them?
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They do not even know what "victim blaming" means then. Victim blaming is when you say for example that a rape victim is to be blamed for her or his raping. Because she/he provoked it by dressing a certain way or by putting himself/herself in a certain situation etc. That's not what any of us say about these allegations. What we say is that these people are simply not victims but people who try to make money by claiming they are. And that is not wrong at all. Not everyone who claims to be a victim really is, especially when big money is involved. If we were supposed to accept every allegation of sexual abuse automatically as true then why would we even need courts? After all courts should not be involved in "victim blaming", right? They should just throw the money at anyone who ever decides to make an allegation against someone.
 
barbee0715 said:
^^i have just the other day. I don't go anywhere near the detail you guys do bc I don't have an organized folder of facts, but sometimes I have to speak out and correct something that I know is a tabloid trash quote.

I was actually 'date raped' in the early 80s (before they had a term for it) so I'm not about to ever blame a victim. I've never told a soul except my mother.
I didn't tell this guy either. I just dropped out of the convo. He was just attacking me bc he didn't have a better argument.
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I'm sorry that happened to you, that's awful. I think people try to play that card because they don't like that you don't agree with the opinion that they're so emotionally attached to. It's a very dirty and dishonest thing for people to say, they're misrepresenting your position and trying to make you look bad because they don't like what they're hearing. It makes me sick!

respect77 said:
They do not even know what "victim blaming" means then. Victim blaming is when you say for example that a rape victim is to be blamed for her or his raping. Because she/he provoked it by dressing a certain way or by putting himself/herself in a certain situation etc. That's not what any of us say about these allegations. What we say is that these people are simply not victims but people who try to make money by claiming they are. And that is not wrong at all. Not everyone who claims to be a victim really is, especially when big money is involved. If we were supposed to accept every allegation of sexual abuse automatically as true then why would we even need courts? After all courts should not be involved in "victim blaming", right? They should just throw the money at anyone who ever decides to make an allegation against someone.
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Precisely! Some of these people don't like waiting for evidence or say the evidence will never come forward in cases of female rape because of so many rape kits waiting to be tested and I get that genuine victims have a difficult time with court and its process but we shouldn't convict people before getting adequate evidence just because these people say that false claims are rare. They can and do happen so sending people to prison over emotional reactions to claims is not good enough. I would not ever consider a system based on emotion rather than evidence to be sufficient. I get that it's not fair when genuine victims don't get justice but putting people who may not be guilty in prison is something I consider worse since they've had their freedom and privacy taken away. This is something that will always be difficult.

When we say children in this case were manipulated we are not victim blaming. If someone is manipulated that isn't their fault and nobody in the conversation we had on that group had tried to claim it was, but this one woman still tried to claim victim blaming anyway. She's over-sensitive to it which is probably why she reacted like that. Someone who wasn't a fan pulled her up on it and she didn't reply to that.

She said earlier that she'd read what the children said and what the adults say today but I think that's all she's read. I hate it when people do that, you can't read one side of a story and conclude that people are telling the truth simply because they say they are (circular reasoning) and then not look into the rest of it all and act like you've properly studied the topic. It's a joke!
 
When Michael said ''One of the most loving things you can do is share your bed'' a lot of people used that has proof of his guilt. I've heard a few people say that Michael practically confessed there. But all Michael said was the most loving thing you can do is share your bed. He never said that the most loving you can do is molest children. So I really don't understand why some people use this as ''evidence'' that Michael was guilty.

And another thing, Michael just said ''Share your bed''. He never said ''Share your bed with children''
 
I think Michael made it clear that "sharing your bed" doesn't even mean sleeping in the same bed. He let his guests sleep in his bed while he could be wherever.
 
analogue said:
But people choose to always ignore that
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Like they do with many other facts. How could that be any kind of admission of the next thing he did was to clarify what he meant by "sharing". It's actually cutting him off in mid sentence and then taking it out of context. You know how many things people say can be twisted into something even worse using the same logic?
 
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People get very emotional about this and that's exactly why this all comes undone. If anything, I wouldn't expect a person who molests children to admit to having kids anywhere near their bed at all, people who do those things don't want to get caught and don't tend to say things that will make people suspicious. It's true that people twist what he was actually saying and misrepresent it to make it mean what they think it means. I think on the footage that was released after the Bashir documentary it shows him elaborating and he and Gavin were talking about how MJ said Gavin should sleep in the bed and MJ would sleep on the floor. Pretty sure that bit was conveniently cut out of Bashir's version though. I get where people are coming from when they get upset about this but it's not as simple as many try to make it out to be.
 
analogue said:
When Michael said ''One of the most loving things you can do is share your bed'' a lot of people used that has proof of his guilt. I've heard a few people say that Michael practically confessed there. But all Michael said was the most loving thing you can do is share your bed. He never said that the most loving you can do is molest children. So I really don't understand why some people use this as ''evidence'' that Michael was guilty.

And another thing, Michael just said ''Share your bed''. He never said ''Share your bed with children''
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I think people were so conditioned to the idea that he was a molester that they just took that one line and twisted it to fit their own sick desires. I've seen people say "he admitted to sleeping with kids!", and it's pretty obvious they're referring to what he said in LWMJ. Apparently sleeping in the same bed as a kid means you're going to molest them. :crazy

I try not to argue with people about Michael anymore cause it gets so stressful because I know you can't make them listen. Unfortunately I found myself kinda doing that tonight with a good friend. He's pretty neutral about the whole thing and has said he doesn't care about controversy surrounding him. In fact he thinks it would be better if it got dropped and then everyone could move forward. But he accused me of defending a man with no facts. I wanted to link him to one of the many sites out there with info about the allegations but when I brought them up he didn't think they would be credible since they were run by fans. I was so intimidated and upset I couldn't bring myself to mention the books out there that could be seen as credible because I was certain he would shoot them down too. :( Are there any credible sources out there that aren't fan-operated? No offense to the fans out there who have worked hard to defend Michael; I just want to be better prepared in case it comes up again.
 
Since other than sensationalism the media mostly refused to do their job about these allegations it will be difficult to find any site that deals with these allegations in an extensive but balanced manner and is not considered a fan site or a hater site (the latter of course have their agenda and are not trustworthy).

But I think it is pretty fallacious thinking by your friend that information cannot be true or valuable if it's coming from fans. What makes newspapers, which have proven to be liars or totally ignorant about these cases over and over again, more trustable? What makes tabloids that even paid money to people to make up lies about these allegations, more independent? Treat fan sites with healthy scepticism and with critical eyes, but at least listen to them. A closed mind is not a good start to get informed about anything.

The Michael Jackson Allegations website gives sources that anyone can check out for themselves. Everything that is written there is sourced. It extenstively uses such sources as the accusers themselves - for example the Chandler's book or the Arvizo's testimonies. I think actually those are the sources it uses the most, so it's giving you an extensive look into what the allegations actually were, what their claims are, it presents the accuser's side extensively - what else can be done?

I think if your friend refuses to read fan written sites but you are eager to convince him maybe you should invest a bit of work in it and study the information on those sites yourself and present it to him in your own words. Referencing the sources like the Chandler book, Arvizo's testimonies etc.

As for books, there is Aphrodite Jones and she is not a fan. There is Geraldine Hughes and she is not a fan (she was the secretary of Barry Rothman).

You will never find a totally independent source on these allegations, since both sides, including the media, have their agendas or own POV. Actually, in life, you will rarelly find a totally independent source about ANYTHING, so if that's what your friend wants he may never find that about MOST subjects in life. When you watch the news, often the presentation or interpretation of it depends on which channel you watch it or in which paper you read it. Even when you read a school textbook it represents one POV that not everyone may agree with - especially about subjects such as history or social sciences. (Obviously there is less room for different POVs in subjects such as math.)

As a thinking person your job is to look at all that info and process it for yourself. Not necessarily accepting everything that is being told to you as the truth and also considering a source's bias. But an intelligent person can distinguish between facts and opinions whatever the source is.
 
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Thanks respect77... I'll keep the above in mind if it comes up again. For the moment I'm going to try and avoid bringing it up as he claimed I was trying to shove it down his throat (which I'm sure I wasn't, and even then he was the one that brought this all up in the first place so it's like WTF, was I supposed to say nothing?), and the whole thing just made me depressed as hell. :(
 
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