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Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

MSL said:
Respect -

I posted that because you specifically said that he slept on the floor THAT NIGHT.
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"That night" meant the night that they were talking about in that documentary. In any case, that you thought "that night" happened the night after the interview clearly shows you have not read about the case. Otherwise you would not have got this basic thing wrong. It also clearly showed you would rather make assumptions to be able to hold on to a preconcieved opinion than to check out facts even if they are provided to you on a silver plate.

If you want to continue presenting information, I will continue reading it
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You have not even read what was provided so far. That is very clear from the wrong assumptions you keep making about the case.

I know that if you did agree with me, you'd have to quit this site and cease listening to his music. I'm not looking to cause that.
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Nice little jabs (not the first time) in an attempt to try to discredit me by what you think my motives are rather than by discussing what I am saying.

But do not worry, nothing you said posed any danger to what I think about the case. You posted nothing but subjectivities about how you feel about Michael's proximity with children. I do not share those feelings and not because I have a need to hold on to anything to be able to listen to his music (that's not more important to me than the truth is), but because I researched the case to depths you admitted you have not. You have it all mixed up in your mind about our motives (which we do not all share BTW, this is not a homogenous community) - I suspect quite deliberately because you find it more convenient to allude to that than to discuss the actual facts presented. Well, I'd say this is a cheap fallacy.
 
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Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

I know this MSL person from Guns N' Roses forums. He has previously leaked some of Axl Rose's music to the point where Axl sued him. I'm sorry I didn't see this thread earlier so I could've told you all then so you wouldn't have had to waste your time on reasoning with him.
But anyways, he's not someone to be taken seriously. Like he has made very clear in this thread all he cares about is the entertainment, not the artists behind it or whether or not they're hurt (like Axl Rose was when MSL leaked his music).
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

If anything, at least everyone put up a good fight with facts and knowledge :) I think a lot of us know so much about this topic that when we have the opportunity to argue with a doubter it sets a fire under us. As much as we would like, we don't have the option to argue with the whole world, but so help us if an individual comes in asking stupid questions. When I see people like Respect, MJResearcher, Soundmind, etc. just laying facts into people, it makes me wish we had the opportunity to sound off with the rest of the Universe :/ Anyways, kudos to everyone who added their 2 cents, and I'm happy to hear MSL got sued. You have to pretty pretty stupid to f**k with a guy like Axl :D
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

I'm glad this topic is open again, it's frustrating when discussions has to be closed down because one person is causing trouble. I had to laugh to myself when he didn't answer or even acknowledge facts I put to him that proved him wrong but I'm not the least bit surprised about that. It was also funny watching him try to do mental gymnastics to get around the facts that respect77 was giving him. It's annoying when this happens since this forum is usually a place that is safe from trolls but it's good to sharpen the debating skills sometimes.
 
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This is the first time this person has replied to me. They've ignored evidence and questions I've put to them and now they're doing a very poor job of pretending to have inside knowledge. There are some very desperate people around.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

As you may have noticed this thread is now open and MSL is banned. Just to be clear, suggesting MJ was a child molestor is disrespectful towards MJ, his family and his fans (And- false.) and therefore against the rules of MJJCommunity.
 
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How I love it when haters are pushed into a corner by arguments they will pull some card about - very conveniently - having information from people very close to the case that showed MJ was guilty. But when you ask them to elaborate it either turns out they know nothing and do not even know the basics of the case or they try to back out of the debate with something lame like this guy ("it was long time ago doesn't matter any more" - but I guess it mattered as long as you thought you could fool people by talking nonsense).

1) I doubt in the offices of MJ's defense MJ's lawyers would talk to random lawyers who are not on the case about confidential information.
2) Gag order? There was a NDA attached to the settlement which however did not run out, it is still valid. And even without an NDA, obviously there is attorney-client privilege.
3) But both the NDA and the attorney-client privilege is binding MJ's lawyers, not this guy. So whatever information he has he could talk about it. Obviously he has nothing, just trying to win a lost argument by posing as if he was authority on the case. While very clearly he has no idea even about the basics.

I doubt the guy is even a lawyer because he got it all wrong in his previous post (posted on the previous page) how a settlement works. He doesn't even know the difference between prosecutors (which have nothing to do with the arrangement of a settlement) and the civil representation of an accuser. He really thinks prosecutors arrange settlements between a defendant and an accuser? :doh:

And of course he pulling things out of his arse. If he really had known about the case he would know it was not Michael who offered the settlement, but the Chandlers who demanded it.
 
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This:

You got the settlement amount wrong.
There's actually plenty of information about this case including files you claim are 'gone.'
If you were telling the truth about knowing people who worked on that case (and being a defense lawyer yourself), then you shouldn't be getting basic facts about the case wrong.
Are you aware that the father and uncle have a book about this that was published in 2004?
You wouldn't have restrictions on whether or not you could talk about any of it because you said yourself that you did not work on this case.

:hysterical: PWNED :hysterical:

if this guy's a lawyer, it's no wonder he quit defending people considering he thinks them to be "scum." He could not have possibly won a case considering he has no idea what he's talking about, let alone the fact that he thinks if you die you no longer become important? Hahaha.
 
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Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

I think the mods on here were more than fair to this guy, he had plenty of chances to say what he wanted but pushed it too far and proved he wasn't interested in an honest discussion so I'm glad he was banned. Good job :)
 
It'll be interesting to see if he replies to me. I can't stand people lying about things and it really grates on my nerves when someone tries to convince others of their position by pretending to be someone they aren't and pretending to have knowledge they don't. Personally I think a person has to be pretty desperate to lie like this, and now this guy has dug himself a hole he can't get out of.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

I'd just like to say thank you to the mods who shut MSL down. I almost hit the report button with his first post, but people were so kind to try to discuss the real facts of the case with him, that I figured I was over-reacting once again.

Next time I'm not going to hesitate to report something so the mods can discuss even if I am wrong. Thank you again.
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

Barbee, you are right.

I first tried to give him the benefit of doubt but as the discussion progressed I was more and more convinced he was a troll/hater. And I should also add that after this thread was closed he continued with the same BS in another. In this thread: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/threads/136144-Sorry-was-Michael-Jackson-effeminate . His comment has been deleted but it was the same offensive BS. For someone who supposedly does not care about the allegations he sure went out of his way to always talk about them - and in an offensive manner to Michael.

And yes, I also agree with when you said that this forum has to stay a safe place for us with zero tolerance for BS like that. We have enough of that elsewhere. So well done to the mods for banning him.
 
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Before the thread got closed and MSL banned I actually intended to write an ample reply (even longer than this lol) which would have included issues they addressed directly to me. Since they no longer can answer back, I don't think it's fair I should do that now. I will however like to make a few general points.

The first and most important being just how much I understand the MJJC policy and the need that the forum be a safe heaven for fans, a refuge from a world which used to be (at least until 2009) deep in negativity towards Michael. There used to be so much trash out there about him that it is only natural and understandable that those few like-minded people who believed in his innocence would want to talk among themselves without having to fight them dreadful battles they already have to in the real world where they are faced with the ignorance of many.

I personally try not to judge people based on their opinions of Michael or any other issues of contention I may have with them. If I would expect to agree on everything with everyone there wouldn't be a soul one earth I could talk to. Not only that, but I also try to apply, however imperfectly and occasionally, the tenants of my spiritual tradition which call us to forgive those who insult us [or those whom we love] and to pray for those who curse us.

It is sad that the discussion degenerated and talk of mental health and other insults were thrown around. Also MSL's obstinacy in ignoring the arguments presented to them didn't help. However, we must understand that their opinion reflects that of a portion of the general public. Just the other day I read a comment quite similar to theirs on the youtube comments for Ghosts.

The fortunate thing though is that such stances are now a minority. Up until 2009 they used to be majority. In a most tragic, twisted, but predictable turn of events in the aftermath of Michael's death many people re-evaluated their perception of the man and returned to appreciate his music and question his supposed guilt about them horrible accusations. It is rather sad people weren't able to do that while he was still alive.

Skeptics about his innocence will always be. Not even Jordan Chandler coming forward and admitting his cooperation in his father's plot will convince some people. Child abuse accusations truly are a most horrible stigma on anyone's good name. To try and to expect to convince the whole world is unrealistic and unproductive. I also don't think it's wise to defend Michael by desiring that other people go through similar tribulations.

I think the best fans can do is present in a rigorous, polite fashion the arguments in favor of his innocence – everything from the lack of credibility of the characters involved to the insanity of time-lines to issues of logic and motif and hope that people will be open-minded enough to understand them. And it is indeed what has been attempted in this thread here. When that doesn't happen I don't feel anyone should get frustrated. It is important to try and make people see the light, but if they want to stay in darkness there isn't much more one can do about it.

The world can think whatever about Michael, my love for him does not depend on public perception or commercial success. The entire universe may call him a monster, as it seemed so in 1993 and 2005 with the exception of the few, brave voices, I still love(d) him. He can sell trillions of records or 0 copies, have dozens of #1 hits or none, all of that is highly irrelevant to me. He could be considered the hottest man ever as he probably was back in the mid-80s when pleeenty of women fainted at his mere sight or a disgusting freak, I would still think he was beautiful. Neither his fame nor his infamy, his commercial success or lack thereof can change my view of him. The world cannot really affect the light and beauty I saw in him.

I think it's safe to say that plenty of people on this message board feel the same way. Of course it is much easier though to live in a world where our stance no longer represents a minority, almost voiceless and invisible. In spite of occasional incidents, I am convinced most people truly see the innocence in Michael's life and are sorry they could not express that sooner.
 
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Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

I've noticed that with some people, no matter how many facts you present to them, they'll always plug their fingers in their ears and go ''la la la la la la la''. It's like they don't want to listen to the facts and they want Michael to be guilty. The thrill of the witch hunt is too great for them, and they don't even want to think about Michael being innocent, because that ruins their fun.

And then they have the nerve to turn and call MJ fans the crazy and unreasonable ones
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

I think the BEST thing to do is just state the 'facts' and NOT get 'down' on their level of anger. They just wanna ruffle your feathers see how far they can push you :smilerolleyes:
 
Re: People trying to shame you for defending Michael

terrell said:
I have never had that problem. And really people like that just stupid and jealous of MJ and people who are successful. It makes them feel good about themselves.
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I have never had this issue either. I will assume it depends on what others are defending Michael against, how secure one may feel in that argument, the type of discussion one is willing to have with another, and the amount of patience one has that may cause issues.

SheilaMJFan4Ever said:
The only time I screamed and got hyped over Mike was when he was on stage and I was in the audience, lol! Most fans of any artist are super excited when they are performing, but if they're just walking down the street or getting into/out of a limo, there's no reason to be tripping (imho). I would have felt embarrassed or stupid to have a meltdown (crying, screaming, fainting) in front of him and he wasn't performing! Famous people are still PEOPLE, first and foremost.

I don't recall the fandom being as extreme (for lack of a better word) back in the 70s and pre-Thriller. We were excited to see Mike and his bros, but the reactions weren't like the post-Thriller fandom. The higher Mike's star rose, the higher the fanaticism rose with it. That's also around the time when Mike became more imprisoned by his fame.
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This is similar to my experience. Thrillermania/Michaelmania was quite different from Jacksonmania. I would say at times the former is similar to pre-2009/post-2009 fandom and maybe pre/post Chandlers, pre/post Arvisos, pre/post Michael's marriages, pre/post Michael becoming a father, pre R/B artist/post pop artist. Michael is also the greatest international entertainer and there is and has always been a bit of a culture clash in the fandom as well. All of these changed the fandom for better and for worse in varying degrees.
 
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How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

As you all know, there are times that being a devoted fan of Michael Jackson is not easy. I am forever defending his legacy from a sea of people who are convinced he was all sorts of evil things. :bugeyed

On another forum for one of my other interests Philately (Stamps) :girl_pride:, we have a funny photos thread and one person posted an image of a boy wearing a tshirt saying "I was bxxt fxxxed at Neverland and all I have to show for it is this lousy tshirt" and it shows an image of MJ moonwalking. I complained saying it was offensive to MJ's memory and it should be removed. They told me to get over defending paedophiles and other Jimmy Seville types (English star). I told him MJ was 100% innocent and proved so twice. Then they said so prove it. I did summarise some stuff and they were still, oh he is paedophile and bleached his skin white and all the rest.

The level of criticsim was savage and I nearly got booted off the site for defending Michael Jackson from some tabloid fed rubbish all these people believe. I was accused for derailing the thread of funny photos. But I found nothing funny about that photo. Yet these people who collect stamps properly (Not kiddie type stamp collectors) are generally well educated and very civilised people who generally can think above the level of mouth breeders who believe everything the tabloid press throws at them.

I got annoyed and felt defeated and most of the time people ask me what music I listen to, I say "All sorts, mostly 80s and R and B, but especially Michael Jackson and Prince" . They will usually say, oh those freaks, aren't they gay, don't have sex with boys and change their race to appeal to whites. They sing like fags etc. And then I tell them I am gay myself and they are usually ignoring me after that. Why are peopleso cruel. That is why I have few true friends because I can not stand nastiness.

Do all of you people experience this nonsense too? And how do you deal with it?:angry:
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

mjprince1976 said:
I got annoyed and felt defeated and most of the time people ask me what music I listen to, I say "All sorts, mostly 80s and R and B, but especially Michael Jackson and Prince" . They will usually say, oh those freaks, aren't they gay, don't have sex with boys and change their race to appeal to whites. They sing like fags etc. And then I tell them I am gay myself and they are usually ignoring me after that. Why are peopleso cruel. That is why I have few true friends because I can not stand nastiness.
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WTF, people say that? That sounds... really... unusual. I've never had someone say that to me when I mention I listen to Michael Jackson (but of course, I'm not saying it's never happened either).

I suppose this isn't really the answer you wanna hear but when I see someone make a Michael Jackson joke, I kinda just shake it off and move on. For me, I've found that's the best path to take. In my many years of being a MJ fan, especially while at high school, there were countless incidents where I was picked on for something MJ-related. It's taken me a while to realise this but I realised that some people will never change. A lot of these people don't give a shit about Michael, they don't care enough to investigate the allegations. In an ideal world, people would be neutral on a subject before they look at the evidence but that's just not how the real world works unfortunately (and yes, I'd rather have someone be neutral on the MJ allegations than blindly lean to one side or the other).

I used to often fight back but nothing I'd do would make them stop or change their opinion on MJ, they'd keep bringing it up and I was ultimately getting upset about something beyond my control. So I started to train myself to shake it off whenever someone made a joke about him. Someone jokes about his face? Meh whatever, f**k them, move on with life. Who cares what other people (especially like that) think? There's literally nothing I can do so why get so upset about it? His legacy is still going to be one of the greatest in music history and as time goes on, people will forget the craziness and remember the music. I've already seen it happening.

I'm pretty good at it now and it doesn't bother me as much is it used to... I'm not saying though that it never upsets me. I care about Michael because he's had a huge impact on me so there is the odd time it can make me be a little down for a moment but I don't physically show it. Essentially this is how I go about it now: Someone cracks a joke about Michael? Eh whatever, move on. Who cares what other people (especially like that) think. If someone isn't joking but makes a serious statement and we're in a smaller setting, then I would go well "Well actually..." and defend Michael. It's not really something I try to make a big fuss about nowadays and honestly? I am happier as a result.
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

Some people just aren't worth arguing with
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

Amen to that last comment.

I find these days (I'm 31 now) I pick my battles. As a teenage Michael Jackson fan I didn't have that filter. I think as you grow older you begin to realise that you can't change everyone's opinions to match your own and you don't need to. A find myself at peace in my own world, at times blisfully ignorant.

But there are times when you really do have to speak up, to defend the honour of someone you respect. In those cases I'd make sure that the person you are going to challenge is actually presenting an intelligent and clear critique of Michael. Because only then is that person going to actually listen to what you have to say. When it's just juvenile nonsense, you're honestly wasting your time. Try to present the facts and remove all the emotional stuff.

Which brings me to those gay comments. I don't know which country you live in but here in Scotland homophobia is illegal - or at least expressing views or acting in a way that can be perceived as homophobic. The same way racism is. If you're on a forum I would report attitudes like that to the forum administrators as they are extremely out of date in 2015 and completely unacceptable.
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

I think fans should pick their fights wisely and when you see it's worth - ie. when there is an openness to information. I don't think a forum and thread like what you described is necessarily the place where you will meet such openness.
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

Back when I used to call myself a true hardcore MJ fan. Now I can hardly call myself a fan of his. I used to be an attack dog when it came to the haters. I was definitely one back during the HIStory Era. When I was in high school. I would defend him the way a dog would defend it's owner's property. I once nearly put a girl in the hospital. For saying some nasty stuff about my beloved Michael. Cause at the time I had absolutely had enough of hearing Michael being called a child molester and or a freak. During my Junior and senior years I was totally getting back at the haters. And I was going to school that was totally full of MJ haters. I was practically the only MJ fan in my entire school. So I was defending him constantly. At the time it was not a cool thing to like or even to listen to or watch Michael Jackson. All because of what he was accused of doing. When it was nothing but a damn horrible lie. Yet these other kids want to believe what the media has to say about him. Over someone who is a fan of his. And this was the American media who always treated Michael. Like he was a piece of dirt or something. It was still like that for me when those stupid lies started again with him back in 2003. Which explains the drawing I did of Tom Sneddon being in Jail. At that time. As angry as I was with him at the time. And I was extremely angry with him. For what he was doing to my Michael. I did had a very good laugh at the picture. Because to me that is where he needed to be. And not Michael who didn't do anything. But now I am no longer like that. When someone says something horrible about him. I just let them say it. I guess ever since what happen to him. It really doesn't bother me anymore. If anyone says anything bad about him now. My being a true hardcore fan of his. Is totally over for me. It just hurts too much for me to still be an MJ fan now.:( :boohoo I see myself a true hardcore Shahrukh Khan fan now. He's my MJ now.
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

MJsBollywoodGirl7 said:
Back when I used to call myself a true hardcore MJ fan. Now I can hardly call myself a fan of his. It really doesn't bother me anymore. If anyone says anything bad about him now. My being a true hardcore fan of his. Is totally over for me. It just hurts too much for me to still be an MJ fan now.:( :boohoo I see myself a true hardcore Shahrukh Khan fan now. He's my MJ now.
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Which begs the question, why do you constantly post on an MJ fan site?

But anyway, like others have said don't bother after a while, sure have the initial discussion but if you can tell they are just saying to provoke a reaction walk away and stick on Dangerous.
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

The older I get the easier it is for me to simply ignore ignorance.. When I was younger I was an advocate to prove how great Michael is and his innocence. I relies 90% of the time it goes one ear and out the other simply because its not something they are passionate about. Why waist time? But for the 10% of people that are intrigued or are genuinely open to the truth, I am more than willing to show what Michael was.


Trust me, if you go out waving a MJ flag for the reason to change peoples mind, you're not going get very far.. In fact more than less you will add to the laughter of people have at times for MJ and "crazy" MJ fans...

Many fans have helped with the circus around Michael and how he's viewed.
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

What i really think when i meet such people. Well, people come from monkeys. And some of the people stay closer to monkey than to human being when it comes to intelligence... And so i think that it is not even worth to argue with such, because you know... you cant argue with a monkey, it is simply impossible.
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

Tony R said:
Which begs the question, why do you constantly post on an MJ fan site?

But anyway, like others have said don't bother after a while, sure have the initial discussion but if you can tell they are just saying to provoke a reaction walk away and stick on Dangerous.
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I am still an MJ fan. But I am not the MJ fan that I used to be.:( It was just yesterday I had yelled at my MJ hating mother for ripping up one of my MJ posters. I had found the pieces in the kitchen trash can. She had no business of doing that at all. It was too late to take it out of the trash. Since other trash got mixed in with it. Even though I don't watch and listen to him like I used to. I still wear my 3 MJ necklaces 24/7. And a MJ t-shirt every single day.
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

Michael was not criticized during Off The Wall and Thriller
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

Bringing Brighter Days said:
Michael was not criticized during Off The Wall and Thriller
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That's because back then it was ''cool'' to like Michael, and years of tabloid brainwashing hadn't sunk in
 
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Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

KOPV said:
Trust me, if you go out waving a MJ flag for the reason to change peoples mind, you're not going get very far.. In fact more than less you will add to the laughter of people have at times for MJ and "crazy" MJ fans...

Many fans have helped with the circus around Michael and how he's viewed.
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Very true. But then the media also perpetuated that stereotype by always focusing on the crazies even though - as we can see from this forum - most MJ fans are perfectly normal, rational people.
 
Re: How do you deal with people who criticise Michael Jackson?

analogue said:
That's because back then it was ''cool'' to like Michael, and years of tabloid brainwashing hadn't sunk in
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Exactly I remember a little bit of MJ mania of the mid 80s. Everyone loved him back then. MJ haters were unheard of back then. Ronald Reagen when he was president. Even did a special day for him. According to the one MJ documentary I have on tape.
 
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