Anyone find religion scary ?

[kindofdisco]

I love it when I come in all angry to make a reply, and somebody has done the work for me, haha! Brilliant post, Pace!

 

[Alma]

So I've just dipped into the Christian thread here on the board out of interest, and I actually feel really, really upset after doing so.

I do not understand Christianity at ALL. I attended several religious schools when I was growing up, so I've been exposed to a lot of the Christian religion, but never have I read such upsetting things in my life.

Stop visiting that thread if it upsets and scares you so much, simple.

Apparently people are in fear that Michael didn't repent his sins and do all these stupid things so he might've gone to hell? I find things like that incredibly disrespectful and hurtful. Michael himself said in later years that he considered himself a spiritual person, but had separated himself from the church. Don't you think he did that for a reason? Not everybody wants to be "saved", and if someone has distanced themselves from religion on purpose, I think it speaks pretty strongly of how they feel about it.

People have the right to express their feelings and fears in such important matters. If they're not important to you, doesn't mean they're not important to others and vice-versa. Moreover, your claiming Michael didn't wanna be 'saved' sounds awfully ignorant. But this isn't yet another thread turning into one about Michael.

I just....all this makes me so upset. People don't need to repent their sins unless you want to live in fear for the rest of your life! I think it's far healthier to make those "mistakes" and to become a better person because of it, not tell some Priest or whomever your problems and suddenly they all go away and you're a good person again. Why don't you learn the mistake? Or even more so, why don't you just let all of that go and HAVE FUN. Good grief, you only live once! Who cares what you do with your life as long as you're happy and not hurting others. I find this notion of someone watching over and judging you for every, single little thing you do quite frightening, and very controlling.

As mentioned before, if you feel upset or frustrated or annoyed by Christians and you can't/don't want to understand this religion, forget about it and occupy your mind with more 'fun', carefree stuff. It's very trendy anyway.



[/QUOTE]

 

[Word Smith Sr]

I do not find religion that scary, i think it's scary only when it comes to voodoo and other evilish practises.

 

[kindofdisco]

Stop visiting that thread if it upsets and scares you so much, simple.

I visited it ONCE out of interest, and suffice to say I was exaggerating a little for effect. Sorry babe, nothing in life is simple. People will do things out of human nature.

People have the right to express their feelings and fears in such important matters. If they're not important to you, doesn't mean they're not important to others and vice-versa. Moreover, your claiming Michael didn't wanna be 'saved' sounds awfully ignorant. But this isn't yet another thread turning into one about Michael.

Me claiming Michael doesn't want to be "saved" sounds ignorant? Are you sure you're using the right word here? I'm sorry, but I have a feeling that you're Christian in which case you're actually pushing your beliefs onto the subject, here. Michael was a human being, he made his own choices in life and I'll be damned if a bunch of people determined whether he got sent to Heaven or Hell. That's just BS, I'm sorry.

I never said it wasn't important to others, if you look at the title of the thread it's about people finding religion scary, which is what my entire reply was about. So in fact, I've come here and been ON TOPIC through my ENTIRE post. If you don't like something in my post, cart yourself off to the Christian thread. Do you see me making a post like this in their thread? No. So don't do it here.

As mentioned before, if you feel upset or frustrated or annoyed by Christians and you can't/don't want to understand this religion, forget about it and occupy your mind with more 'fun', carefree stuff. It's very trendy anyway.

Oh honey, are you really patronizing me now? Sure, I'd love to go daydream about cornfields and bunny rabbits and happy things! Because apparently as someone who doesn't believe in Jesus Christ, that's all I'm capable with! Hey, as long as I don't have to worry about being judged by a higher force that was created by man, fret that I'm going to be set to eternal damnation and wonder if I'm sinning as I type this very word, I think I'm having a pretty good life! Toorah.



[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Hicci]

All religions are a lie, so they do not scare me.

 

[Alma]

Me claiming Michael doesn't want to be "saved" sounds ignorant? Are you sure you're using the right word here?

Yes.. Nothing to do with Christianity or anything. He got lots of strength and hope and he got to keep his lovely soul because of his faith. His humility and kindness and the inner gifts he was endowed with, as well as all the wonderful things he got in life he always said they were owed to God and I don't agree with that just 'cuz he said that, but because that was the truth.

I never said it wasn't important to others, if you look at the title of the thread it's about people finding religion scary, which is what my entire reply was about. So in fact, I've come here and been ON TOPIC through my ENTIRE post. If you don't like something in my post, cart yourself off to the Christian thread. Do you see me making a post like this in their thread? No. So don't do it here.

Well, sorry, but, unlike the Christian thread, this is not a non-debate thread, so I/anyone can come in and reply as long as I or anyone feel necessary, if this is still an open thread. You were addressing my comments and worries and beliefs in the Christianity thread, so I very much had the right to address yours on here. You won't see me replying in the 'Athesit' thread (that's how it's spelled, sorry). ..

Oh honey, are you really patronizing me now?

No. Not at all, and that's as sincere as it can be. It appears that you are, though, when 'honey'-ing me this way.

[...] Hey, as long as I don't have to worry about being judged by a higher force that was created by man, fret that I'm going to be set to eternal damnation and wonder if I'm sinning as I type this very word, I think I'm having a pretty good life!

Me, too, thankfully. And may you continue to have a good life. Peace out.

 

[kindofdisco]

Yes.. Nothing to do with Christianity or anything. He got lots of strength and hope and he got to keep his lovely soul because of his faith. His humility and kindness and the inner gifts he was endowed with, as well as all the wonderful things he got in life he always said they were owed to God and I don't agree with that just 'cuz he said that, but because that was the truth.

Actually the idea of being "saved" is 100 percent a religious ideal. How can you possibly say it has nothing to do with religion? Got to "keep his soul"? I'm sorry, but not everyone believes in the same thing that happens after you pass away. I'm one of those people who ideally believes that we simply transcend to a higher conciousness, a different plane of thinking where we don't need our bodies anymore. That's probably pretty similar to "keeping your soul" in the Christian religion, but unlike them I believe that everyone reaches this stage and nobody is judged for what they did in their life. I hate this whole idea of judging and being scared of whether somebody was saved or their soul was saved or whatever. Why can't everyone be saved?

Again, the idea of a God and religion are two separate things. You can believe in God/a God and thank him for your gifts and still not partake in some of the man-made rules of religion. I think it was pretty obvious that Michael distanced himself from the Kingdom Hall because he didn't agree with their principles.

 

[Victory22]

Religion can be very scary and even oppressive but real relationship with God is never scary. Relationship free's me to love and care for others more completely and openly.

 

[Alma]

Actually the idea of being "saved" is 100 percent a religious ideal. How can you possibly say it has nothing to do with religion? Got to "keep his soul"? I'm sorry, but not everyone believes in the same thing that happens after you pass away. I'm one of those people who ideally believes that we simply transcend to a higher conciousness, a different plane of thinking where we don't need our bodies anymore. That's probably pretty similar to "keeping your soul" in the Christian religion, but unlike them I believe that everyone reaches this stage and nobody is judged for what they did in their life. I hate this whole idea of judging and being scared of whether somebody was saved or their soul was saved or whatever. Why can't everyone be saved?

Sorry then, this discussion is going nowhere with dead-set people on both sides. Yours is even stronger, because you're involving your personal feelings and perceptions in defining God and religion, being that you 'hate' Christian beliefs, or 'love my damn life', which are purely built on emotion and personal experience. Of course, the immediate response for that would be that certain religions are just as irrational, only that there are religions in this world, as are philosophies in this world, philosophies mostly being based upon personal ideas on life(style) and divinity. -- This reply is pretty ambiguous, but won't develop on it more, I don't want more hard feelings and impressions thrown at/by certain people on this topic.

I think it was pretty obvious that Michael distanced himself from the Kingdom Hall because he didn't agree with their principles.

And I never questioned that. I will keep my opinions on his decision to myself so as not to upset Jehovah Witnesses. But Michael didn't distance himself from certain JW teachings or tenets completely. But, again, this is not a thread about Michael's religious life, so I'll end this here. ..

 

[kindofdisco]

Sorry then, this discussion is going nowhere with dead-set people on both sides. Yours is even stronger, because you're involving your personal feelings and perceptions in defining God and religion, being that you 'hate' Christian beliefs, or 'love my damn life', which are purely built on emotion and personal experience. Of course, the immediate response for that would be that certain religions are just as irrational, only that there are religions in this world, as are philosophies in this world, philosophies mostly being based upon personal ideas on life(style) and divinity. -- This reply is pretty ambiuous, but won't develop on it more, I don't want more hard feelings and impressions thrown at/by certain people on this topic.

I'm sorry but the title of this thread concerns if people find religion scary, which is a question laced with personal feelings and thus I gave a personal answer. If the thread was titled "let's have a religious debate purely based on facts and analytical" discussion then your argument would make sense. And at the end of the day, religion is a highly personal matter so it's pretty hard to take emotion out of it. I love how you completely disregarded most of what I've said here, maybe because I'm actually right.

I never once said that I hated Christian beliefs, I said that I didn't UNDERSTAND them. So please do not put words in my mouth. And I never worded something as "love my damn life". If that's how you interpreted what I said, then that's YOUR opinion. Not mine. Again, do not put words in my mouth.

 

[FrankMusic1982]

We hear on the news why he did those crimes: because he was psychologically unstable, probably abused when he was younger blablah. But actually no one cares.We care about the killed babies, not about the killer who is being victimized. He killed, he should assume his horrible actions no matter what.

I am not for the blind death penalty, but when I hear such examples as mentioned above, it would be actually a crime not to kill the killers.

Not caring about what caused the killer to kill in the first place is precisely the problem: everyone is in deep, dangerous denial over the fact that poor parenting is what breeds bad people in the first place. Sure there are some mentally unstable people out there who are genetically predisposed to such, but the enviroment in which you are brought up is what determines your future behavior. Genetics may load the gun, but environment pulls the trigger.

Focusing too much on the fact that the babies were killed will not bring them back, nor will it help us to understand why they were killed. We need to focus on the cause if we are to understand the effect of a murderer's actions. And brushing the whole thing under the rug by executing the killer is what is truly the crime here. We need to know what shaped his past so that we can learn from it and not repeat the mistakes of those who molded him.

There are lots of bad parents out there who are breeding bad children and have not been taken to task for it. Again, brushing this under the rug is the true crime because we are not learning from the actions of others and properly educating the public on the true cause of murderers' actions.

No one sane wants anyone to kill. But when you are in necessity to defend your children, the choice is instinctively made, and that's nothing wrong, it is absolutely a normal reaction. If Hitler had been stopped on time we wouldn't have had genocides.

If people weren't so in denial, maybe Hitler would have received the help he needed at a young age. What everyone keeps forgetting is that abusers breed abusers. As far as I know, Hitler was abused by his father as a child. I even remember reading somewhere that his father beat him and put him in a coma or something.

If society would learn that there are too many unfit parents out there, maybe we wouldn't be breedng so many murderers. The problem I have with religion is that people are brainwashed and compelled to believe that it is imperative that they marry, procreate, and raise families. Unfortunately, no one stops to think that there are just too many unstable people out there who submit to these beliefs and wind up raising children improperly. Not only that, but everyone has a unique set of needs that must be fulfilled. Raising a family may not be one of those needs. In fact, it could make them worse.

Not everyone is meant to raise a family; marriage and family life is not the cure for a bad childhood or an unstable mentality. That is why I detest religion; because it is used to brainwash everyone, and oftentimes the worst people get caught in it.

Prevent killing other children.

No, it wouldn't. No one would ever learn what caused the killer to act the way he did. And killing him wouldn't stop other murderers from killing either.

-why being scared of religion when it attempts to give an answer to the purpose of our life?

Because the majority of society uses the fear of religion as a means of power and control. Nowhere is this most evident than in the issue of human sexuality and sexual development.

I happen to be a gay man, but I was raised with the Roman Catholic belief that homosexuality was wrong, as was any kind of physical sexual activity outside of a heterosexual marriage (physical activity that would have dramatically helped my psychosexual development).

Guess what, my friend: that is *brainwashing* because there is no factual evidence to back up that belief. I suffered over a decade of psychosexual trauma because my parents basically blackmailed me with their religious beliefs. Moreover, I never heard one single word of support of homosexuality as a child. Becuse of that, I did not come out until I was 18, at which time my parents had no legal right to do anything about it. However, because I had been brainwashed so badly, I actually attempted suicide at age 23. I did not even have my first physical experience with a male until I was 25! That is because I needed intensive therapy to get over the trauma of having been brainwashed.

Now, even though I am in a committed relationship with a wonderful man, I still nurse very deep psychosexual scars that still hurt and will never heal. Why? Because I was traumatically brainwashed during my formative years to believe that my true needs were wrong, and for NO good reason. Compounding this is the fact that I suffer from Asperger Syndrome, a neurological developmental disability on the Autism spectrum. We are wired in such a way that we believe all we are told as a child, even more so when we are blackmailed with unsound and factually unsupportable religious beliefs.

Just like Michael Jackson was robbed of his childhood, so too was I robbed of the chance to develop my psychosexuality without trauma. And I owe it all to religion.

I believe in a higher power but I left my church because they seem to be going so far back in terms of being in touch with the real problems of the world in favor of outdated Dogma. They preach almost weekly how pornography and same sex marriage are the greatest evils in the world with only passing mentions of the wars, natural disasters, corruption etc. It's like they're being paid to keep quiet about the real issues the way media is to keep people in the dark.

That's because these so-called religious believers are wolves in sheep's clothing. They are using their religion to destroy the world and blaming it on God. They are the sick ones, and unfortunately, they number in the majority.

Also children should be exposed to the Lord as young as possible..it is important to start them on a solid foundation when they are young...also child should be taught that Christianity is not a religion...its a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ

Children most certainly should NOT be exposed to religion as young as possible. From my own personal experience as a disabled person, brainwashing a young child with religion is harmful, dangerous, and counterproductive. It can do untold damage to their growth and development. Please read my most recent posts to understand what I went through as a child and now as an adult.

Children need a solid foundation all right, but they need a solid foundation of *reality*, not some unsound, factually unsupportable fantasy. If the child is disabled, as I am, they will be traumatized by religious teachings.

Henry David Thoreaux once said, "If you've built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they belong. Now put foundations under them."

It's all equally scary to me, based on principle. I can't honestly understand religion's grip on people. Especially the three most influential religions in the world.

I honestly don't see the purpose of teaching children religious things--it seems as though it is robbing them of their right to choose what to believe for themselves since the beginning, with the indoctrination of children like the videos you have posted above, to "Jesus Camps," and Bar/Bat Mitzvahs.

I don't think children should be taught these things by their parents, and if I had it my way, they wouldn't know anything of religion until they were 18, and only if they were interested.

As a developmentally disabled gay man who was traumatized by his religious upbringing, I wholeheartedly agree. It's just like what Michael suffered: he was robbed of his chance to grow up normally and was in effect robbed of a normal adulthood. Until the day he died, he was trying to fulfill his stunted emotional, mental, psychological, and psychosocial needs, but he was hounded to death because it was considered "socially inappropriate" by society. Though he wasn't brainwashed with religion, he was abused by a very unstable father.

I feel nothing but contempt for Joseph Jackson. I don't know what motivated him to do the things he did, but I do know that he should be held accountable for his actions. I hope it is true that Michael cut him out of his will; that devil doesn't deserve a cent!

Depends on what you believe.
I'm a Christian educated in a catholic school and WE BELIEVE in Evolution and the Big Bang.
Those topics weren't even argumentative for us. But they are for other Christians though.
Btw, I know a lot (A LOT!) of gay people who call themselves Christians in my country.

So I think it's really important that we try not to paint everyone with the same brush. That's the same attitude of racism.

It's kind of hard not to paint everyone with the same brush when the majority of (bad) Christians are shoving their beliefs down our throats by lobbying to legislate their beliefs as law.

If you can't tell the difference between religion and superstition, too bad for you, extremely abusive can ignorance be. Additionally, this isn't a thread about prejudiced people trashing the Bible due to their poor capacity to think for themselves and mistake fairytales with genuine belief.

Actually, the fact of the matter is that there are some very unfit parents out there who fail to distinguish such superstition from religion in the first place. Not only that, but there are a lot of helpless mentally unstable or disabled children out there who are traumatized by this mistake.

Personally, as a disabled gay man on the Autism spectrum, religion is just that: superstition. Not once as a child did my parents try to distinguish religion from superstition. Being on the Autism spectrum, I am wired to believe everything I hear (only as an adult did I develop skepticism as a coping mechanism, but as a child, I had no choice but to obey my parents). Only after my formative years were over did they finally say that my religious upbringing had been intended as a guide.

That revelation was too little, too late; I had already accepted that being gay was wrong during my formative years. It took a suicide attempt in my early twenties to make my mom and dad understand how traumatized their upbringing had made me.

One thing: before you say that it was "my fault" for allowing this to happen, you'd be wrong. I did not choose to believe everything I was told; I was born wired this way. I am disabled, and I was traumatized by the mistakes that society made through my parents.

But religion cannot provide answers........it only provides guidance.............

I wish you had told that to my parents before they conceived me, and I wish they had told me the same. They claim to me now that their only intent was to provide guidance by raising me Roman Catholic, but they never once told me to question what I was being taught, or to take it with a grain of salt. As a result, I was traumatized by believing that homosexuality was wrong. If I wasn't gay, that would have been okay, but the fact of the matter is that I am gay, and believing that your true needs are wrong is very traumatic to a growing boy, especially if said boy is on the Autism spectrum.

I didn't come out until I was 18, but during my childhood, I heard nothing but negative word-of-mouth about homosexuality from my peers, as well as my father and the church. I developed homophobia as a coping and survival mechanism as a result. When I finally came out, he and my mother were more supportive than I ever could have hoped, but that did not erase the trauma I suffered prior.

The sad fact of the matter is that most parents indeed fail to distinguish religion from superstition and end up traumatizing their children.

I love science. I believe in the evolution of species and the theory of the big bang.

I just love reading about astronomy, biology and psychology (actually, I'm studying psychology) and the more I read and know about science the more I believe in God.

It's amazing how some people take sides with such anger. The truth is that neither of both sides have the complete answers of everything in this world or the "other" worlds.

The anger you speak of is the result of oppression. The more you oppress someone, the harder they will fight back.

I get that paranoia everytime I switch it to the news channel.........

The propaganda the media and the UK/US governments shove down our throats is probably worse then any religion.........


The bush/blair team sold us lies about Saddam and his imaginary weapons and then they destroyed iraq in an illegal war........

The US/UK complain about about Gaddafi attacking innocent people............but then again it's ok for the US to torture people in Guantanamo bay..........


None of the above I have mentioned have anything to do with religion.........




Another thing I would like to mention is that law is built from religion........it doesn't matter where you live..........


US and UK law is straight from Christianity beliefs.........


So you should now ask yourself one question............is killing another person wrong?????............

To the Christians......it is wrong to kill another..........but since you call Christianity evil.........I doubt you can say that!!!!

The laws that discriminate against gays are also from religion, you know, as is the general hatred, intolerance, and ignorance that most religious nuts propagate against us. *That*, my friend, is evil, no question. And there is no factual basis to support it.

During the civil rights movement, religious leaders were certain that interracial marriage would bring about the destruction of society. Nowadays, they believe that gay marriage will do the same. I certainly beg to differ! I am certainly not a destroyer of society just because I'm in love with a man!

 

[Alma]

I'm sorry but the title of this thread concerns if people find religion scary, which is a question laced with personal feelings and thus I gave a personal answer. If the thread was titled "let's have a religious debate purely based on facts and analytical" discussion then your argument would make sense. And at the end of the day, religion is a highly personal matter so it's pretty hard to take emotion out of it. I love how you completely disregarded most of what I've said here, maybe because I'm actually right.

Haven't discarded anything, just summarized my comments on your post. And.. you think you are actually right.

I never once said that I hated Christian beliefs, I said that I didn't UNDERSTAND them. So please do not put words in my mouth. And I never worded something as "love my damn life". If that's how you interpreted what I said, then that's YOUR opinion. Not mine. Again, do not put words in my mouth.

I apologize for that, that was as late as it is when typing these lines. You saying that you don't understand Christian beliefs, though, makes your points based on personal experience alone, not knowledge and exploration too, which is why I used the word 'ignorant' in a previous post. It takes time and experience and knowledge to comprehend it or anything for that matter. Judging what you don't understand (generally speaking) is like categorizing a problem as serious, even though it's been scarcely brought into.

And I don't wish to extend this discussion with you that leads to remorse and defensiveness, apparently, so I will end it here. Peace.

That is why I detest religion; because it is used to brainwash everyone, and oftentimes the worst people get caught in it.

I'm sorry, but religion is not a bad concept all throughout, just because many got 'brainwashed' as kids and abused and the like. The fault lies in the way the teachings are taught and some priests out there. There are many genuinely good priests with a calling, at least in my country there are, and it takes complete understanding of a certain teaching before judging on it. It takes time and perseverance, not emotionally attached attitudes on it based on personal experience. There are far too many other media brainwashing people into getting to feel that religion is bad.

Children most certainly should NOT be exposed to religion as young as possible. From my own personal experience as a disabled person, brainwashing a young child with religion is harmful, dangerous, and counterproductive. It can do untold damage to their growth and development. Please read my most recent posts to understand what I went through as a child and now as an adult.

I'm really sorry for what happened to you as a child, but that is not a rule - not all parents are brainwashing their children into religion, they're patiently and carefully teaching them about it, they're not all abusive, including the priests. .. Very late hours here, can't be too coherent, but being biased about something is not a rational approach to understand and analyze that something. Children would/will grow harmoniously if taught well and appropriately. .. The attitude of hated against religion is very counterproductive, for there is remorse and fractured perception attached to this attitude that is preventing all future reconciliations with common sense. ..

What you said about Hitler.. Yes, he was abused, but imagine if we all have been/had been abused and reacted vengefully because of that, and beating, killing, torturing others.. Where is the self-control and why do we always need justifications for our actions? ..

And I owe it all to religion.

No. You owe it all to the abuse you've been submitted to, not religion. The way you are expressing yourself is deeply influenced by what you have been through, but it is not religion (what a broad, unspecific term) that did that to you. As we live, we learn, there is a lot of perseverance that needs to be done in God. You look at all the surroundings and make time for self and reflect in the quiet of nature, and that's clearing the head..

But abuse is horrible.. I keep thinking of the many famous Hollywood people that admitted to have been abused as kids, and that an overwhelming percentage of American people and English, I believe, were abused as kids and that is ruining their lives forever. The fault lies within the manner of approaching God and a specific religion, and, as we grow older, in ourselves as well for failing to understand that.

 

[kindofdisco]

Haven't discarded anything, just summarized my comments on your post. And.. you think you are actually right.



I apologize for that, that was as late as it is when typing these lines. You saying that you don't understand Christian beliefs, though, makes your points based on personal experience alone, not knowledge and exploration too, which is why I used the word 'ignorant' in a previous post. It takes time and experience and knowledge to comprehend it or anything for that matter. Judging what you don't understand (generally speaking) is like categorizing a problem as serious, even though it's been scarcely brought into.

And I don't wish to extend this discussion with you that leads to remorse and defensiveness, apparently, so I will end it here. Peace.

Sorry kiddo, discussion will go on anyway.

For 12 years of my life I went to Christian schools, so I'm pretty sure I understand the depth of Christianity. Do not attempt to brand me as someone who has had no contact with religion, because I have for a large part of my life.

I have remorse only for you, because you haven't really read my posts thoroughly. You have - not ME - become defensive and called me ignorant on several occasions now, which I think is highly hurtful. Do not EVER call a person ignorant. That's disgusting.

I feel sorry for you because you can't clearly see what you're saying and typing to others. I've read what you said to the boy down below who was abused as a child, and I'm astounded.

Edit: You know what, here's the facts:

You believe in Christianity.

I don't.

We're not going to get along in this area, but I'm not going to let it colour how I view you as a person. I'm sure you're a very sweet girl who'd I enjoy spending time with, but as far as religion goes, I think we're best to stay away from each other.

 

[MJCHIRS]

sometime , I watch it in the movie . I feel unconfortable...

 

[FrankMusic1982]

Alma, I really wish I could feel as good as you do about religion, but the fact of the matter is that my parents blackmailed me with it. They had nothing but the best intentions, but because I am on the autism spectrum, I took religion literally, and my parents only encouraged it. And because of that, I missed out on valuable psychosexual developmental time with my peers as a growing teenager.

(I wasn't even diagnosed as being autistic until I was 13 because the form from which I suffer--Asperger Syndrome, a very high-functioning form at the top of the spectrum--wasn't even added to the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders until 1994 . Unfortunately, it was too little, too late when I was finally diagnosed.)

My mother told me that the only reason she sent me and my siblings to religion classes (CCD) was that every other parent she knew was doing it to their children. Never once did she or my father question what they were exposing me to because it had done well for them as children. Even worse was the fact that my father basically tried to mold me into a person that should never question anything about anything, and he used religion to back up his actions. He admitted to me a few years ago that he was not the smartest person. He tried to teach me to function only on faith, at least in certain areas like sex and family life, but because of the way I'm wired neurologically, I perceived his actions as him using religion to scare, control, and dumb me down, though again, he had nothing but the best intentions for me since his being raised Roman Catholic had been good for him. But the fact of the matter is that I have been traumatized by my religious upbringing.

(Hell, he even said that he wouldn't have changed a thing about the way he raised me even knowing what he knows now about my disability and the effects of such from my upbringing!)

Now that I am almost thirty, I am very rebellious against all forms of religion, especially any that condemns gays. The fact of the matter is that the religious teachings of our society (and most other societies) are very dangerous, harmful, and counterproductive, especially those teachings that are out of synch with the true realities of human sexual development. I thank God that I survived my suicide attempts so that I could let the world know about my experiences.

 

[AndreyZidane™]

Alma, I really wish I could feel as good as you do about religion, but the fact of the matter is that my parents blackmailed me with it. They had nothing but the best intentions, but because I am on the autism spectrum, I took religion literally, and my parents only encouraged it. And because of that, I missed out on valuable developmental time with my peers as a growing teenager.

My mother told me that the only reason she sent me and my siblings to religion classes (CCD) was that every other parent she knew was doing it to their children. Never once did she or my father question what they were exposing me to because it had done well for them as children. Even worse was the fact that my father basically tried to mold me into a person that should never question anything about anything, and he used religion to back up his actions. He admitted to me a few years ago that he was not the smartest person, and he tried to use religion to scare and dumb me down.

Now that I am almost thirty, I am very rebellious against all forms of religion, especially any that condemns gays. The fact of the matter is that the religious teachings of our society (and most other societies) are very dangerous, harmful, and counterproductive. I thank God that I survived my suicide attempts so that I could let the world know about my experiences.

Well said! I found myself growing up being raised as a catholic, going for a couple of years to catholic school, going to church, talking to various priests and all religion has tried to do in my case was to basically brainwash me into being a total ignorant human being who has a unrealistic view on reality and who happens to be a gay bashing redneck homophob. Catholicism is very scary and it obviously left a couple of marks on my childhood. I made a promise to myself that when I'll have children I'll basically let them choose and decide their faith, believes or rather non-believes on their own, without exposing them to religion when being young and waiting for when they can't decide for themselves whether or not to buy into that whole religion thing.

 

[Alma]

Sorry kiddo, discussion will go on anyway.

For 12 years of my life I went to Christian schools, so I'm pretty sure I understand the depth of Christianity. Do not attempt to brand me as someone who has had no contact with religion, because I have for a large part of my life.

I have remorse only for you, because you haven't really read my posts thoroughly. You have - not ME - become defensive and called me ignorant on several occasions now, which I think is highly hurtful. Do not EVER call a person ignorant. That's disgusting.

I feel sorry for you because you can't clearly see what you're saying and typing to others. I've read what you said to the boy down below who was abused as a child, and I'm astounded.

Edit: You know what, here's the facts:

You believe in Christianity.

I don't.

We're not going to get along in this area, but I'm not going to let it colour how I view you as a person. I'm sure you're a very sweet girl who'd I enjoy spending time with, but as far as religion goes, I think we're best to stay away from each other.

You're being insolent now, even though I love the word 'kiddo', but I am not going to respond to your vindictive challenge. I will just say that catholic schools do manipulate a lot, hence why so much hostility to Christianity in a way. One gets to achieve a profound level of knowledge and understanding with perseverence, with time and it's still not enough. I have not a profound understanding an knowledge of it either, but I am learning and thankfully not giving it up.

You also seem to be sweet, but I am not going to continue this discussion anymore with you. I don't need to be pitied at all. You don't need to either. If you want to continuing arguing on this and feeling remorse, sorry, but I'm out. I'm sorry, but what you said about Michael and other views on Christianity as a whole are not facts.

And I absolutely never said something insensitive or irrational to the man that got abused as a child. You're going lower than expected if on this route, because you have no idea what you're saying, you're just acting out on a bruised ego. That person is a man, Frank says it as well, you called him a 'boy'. Don't try to belittle me as a human being based on your own warped perception of some other people.

 

[kindofdisco]

Oh, I just love you Alma. You've just injected so much humour into my night.

As you would say, God bless you.

 

[FrankMusic1982]

Well said! I found myself growing up being raised as a catholic, going for a couple of years to catholic school, going to church, talking to various priests and all religion has tried to do in my case was to basically brainwash me into being a total ignorant human being who has a unrealistic view on reality and who happens to be a gay bashing redneck homophob. Catholicism is very scary and it obviously left a couple of marks on my childhood. I made a promise to myself that when I'll have children I'll basically let them choose and decide their faith, believes or rather non-believes on their own, without exposing them to religion when being young and waiting for when they can't decide for themselves whether or not to buy into that whole religion thing.

Excellent assessment, Andrey. I am very sorry that you were somewhat traumatized as a child. No, not every child is traumatized, but the fact is that some children are not as resilient as others, especially if they have irresponsible parents.

Catholicism is indeed a very bad religion. Even Madonna agrees, having been raised as such herself. That is why she is so rebellious against it. She said that "Catholicism is not a soothing religion; it is a painful religion."

 

[FrankMusic1982]

And I absolutely never said something insensitive or irrational to the man that got abused as a child. You're going lower than expected if on this route, because you have no idea what you're saying, you're just acting out on a bruised ego. That person is a man, Frank says it as well, you called him a 'boy'. Don't try to belittle me as a human being based on your own warped perception of some other people.

Actually, Alma, KingofDisco's reference to me as a boy does not bother me. What does bother me are the things you said to me before. You're basically defending religion and disregarding the fact that I was traumatized by it. And for the record, my parents were not inherently abusive; that is simply how I perceived my experiences based on the fact that I am autistic.

 

[andrea72]

Excellent assessment, Andrey. I am very sorry that you were somewhat traumatized as a child. No, not every child is traumatized, but the fact is that some children are not as resilient as others, especially if they have irresponsible parents.

Catholicism is indeed a very bad religion. Even Madonna agrees, having been raised as such herself. That is why she is so rebellious against it. She said that "Catholicism is not a soothing religion; it is a painful religion."

I have been raised as a RC since being a child. I was born and raised in N.Ire. There are still extremists there,
which is pretty sad. They have been conditioned that they should and shouldn't do this. Since leaving home and
travelling, ( i am now settled in Manc, UK) i have changed in many ways. I do not follow RC teachings/beliefs.
I follow in the spirit of who i am. In my opinion there is noly one religion, which is LOVE. I have a 9 yr old daughter
and i not going to condition her the way i was. She is very connected in many ways with the devine and God, but
i don't brain wash her with religion. She usually teaches me about God etc.

 

[Alma]

Alma, I really wish I could feel as good as you do about religion, but the fact of the matter is that my parents blackmailed me with it. They had nothing but the best intentions, but because I am on the autism spectrum, I took religion literally, and my parents only encouraged it. And because of that, I missed out on valuable psychosexual developmental time with my peers as a growing teenager.

I really am sorry about your terrible experience and about your illness... The approach they should've taken, considering your situation, should've been different indeed. It is nice and encouraging, though, that you feel your parents have had/had nothing but the best intentions with you, trust that they did have.. ..

(I wasn't even diagnosed as being autistic until I was 13 because the form from which I suffer--Asperger Syndrome, a very high-functioning form at the top of the spectrum--wasn't even added to the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders until 1994 . Unfortunately, it was too little, too late when I was finally diagnosed.)

You know what, people with certain irregularities (not a negative term), like your Asperger Syndrome, are actually really blessed.. It is a sort of a blessing in desguise, though, and a lot of pain is accompanying it, but people like you are blessed with heightened cerebral intelligence and are highly sensitive. ..I guess I'm trying to see the glass half full in these cases, because God's ways are mysterious and He is trying those that are dearest to Him. He really does. It's part of His grand mystery and, I'm not sure if you believe in the Cross, but some people are carrying heavier or lighter crosses in their lives, as life is not rose-colored, and I always do am in awe of those people who are so strong and resilient and don't crash and burn, in spite of their many ordeals. They strive and persevere, and that takes a lot in this very difficult world. I've been through hell myself, lots of mental and emotional abuse drawn from primary and secondary school and fueled by the media.. The primary and secondary school were filled with emotional abuse like me having to witness kids being beaten and punished by other kids and by teachers, and it was a place filled with dangers, and that has turned me into an often fearful being, very sceptical and shy, I used to be the opposite of that. And yes, literal hell have the media tactics and sinuous ways had on me, am better now, because it is only recently that I've come to realize and understood that after 10 years. Not gonna elaborate on that right now, but it was really serious. ....There are so many brainwashing techniques, like this very Internet, both a blessing and a curse, not to mention the news and sport programs, as well as cartoons today. ...

My mother told me that the only reason she sent me and my siblings to religion classes (CCD) was that every other parent she knew was doing it to their children. Never once did she or my father question what they were exposing me to because it had done well for them as children. Even worse was the fact that my father basically tried to mold me into a person that should never question anything about anything, and he used religion to back up his actions. He admitted to me a few years ago that he was not the smartest person. He tried to teach me to function only on faith, at least in certain areas like sex and family life, but because of the way I'm wired neurologically, I perceived his actions as him using religion to scare, control, and dumb me down, though again, he had nothing but the best intentions for me since his being raised Roman Catholic had been good for him. But the fact of the matter is that I have been traumatized by my religious upbringing.(Hell, he even said that he wouldn't have changed a thing about the way he raised me even knowing what he knows now about my disability and the effects of such from my upbringing!)

I understand... I really do. I am not a Roman Catholic, but I understand it when people are sceptical of this, because of the grand control and secret plans they are having with the world, like the Vatican does and the Pope, and knowing about all the atrocities committed in the medieval era, although among God's ten commandments lies the simple 'Don't kill' one, which was grossly ignored and sullied. Not to mention am I aware of the sexual abuse that has happened/happened as far as some Roman Catholic priests are concerned. ..So, yes, I understand that it is very hard, at times, to have faith in a certain religion and all that, but it's important to understand that we are not to do what certain priests are doing and call them hypocrites, they're being judged quietly already, some are being indicted and arrested, I believe, God is handling His judging, we are, of course, not to be robots and not question Anything. ..I guess, we should pray that a good minister or pastor or whatever should come our way, a genuinely kind and God-given being so that he can teach us patiently and answer all the questions we might have about God, the Bible, church, a specific religion and all that. What some others do in their private life (as long as it's not illegal, immoral and horrible) is not our business, but what we're being taught about: again patiently, quietly...

Now that I am almost thirty, I am very rebellious against all forms of religion, especially any that condemns gays. The fact of the matter is that the religious teachings of our society (and most other societies) are very dangerous, harmful, and counterproductive, especially those teachings that are out of synch with the true realities of human sexual development.

But, see.. again, you are being biased (and I understand it totally, given the abuse you've undergone), but this is not the proper and rational or comforting approach to religion... You are overgeneralizing too much. I used to be quiet rebellious myself before starting to go to church, but it took and still takes perseverance for me to see the light... My pastor told me that after I read the New Testament (which was my own decision), I'll have to read another book explaining it, the Bible as whole, as it's filled with allegories, especially the Old Testament, which is why many people are failing to comprehend them as reading them. It's not too simple reading the Bible, so there are ways to comprehend it better, the apostles were the only ones who were told the answers to the Jesus' parables, and we, as regular folk, are to strive in deciphering them. Unfortunately, many are failing to and, thus, turn away from it and religion altogether, which is not the right thing to do...

Again, I'm aware of the many counterproductive surroundings that society has got, I'm experiencing them myself a lot, I suffer from depression and chronic timidity (or so I think), and society's not interested in people like that, they don't need them. So, to me, the church has been a refuge in all this, and other wonderful things in this life, the simple things.

I thank God that I survived my suicide attempts so that I could let the world know about my experiences.

That's wonderful that you are grateful to Him.. Never cease asking for His help to continue to give you strength and make you see, religion, for instance, from a better perspective somehow... Hang in there!

 

[Alma]

Actually, Alma, KingofDisco's reference to me as a boy does not bother me. What does bother me are the things you said to me before. You're basically defending religion and disregarding the fact that I was traumatized by it. And for the record, my parents were not inherently abusive; that is simply how I perceived my experiences based on the fact that I am autistic.

Please, read above, you've misunderstood me. I assure you I didn't mean it like that. ..But I did understand now what you're saying about your parents. ..

 

[kindofdisco]

Frank, I know what it's like to be highly sensitive as well. I've never been diagnosed with anything in particular, but I'm sensitive to the point that I can pick up on the mood of a room or a person and either start to feel extremely sick or happy or whatever depending on what that mood is. And I won't be aware of it at the time, I'll think, "why on earth am I feeling like this?" it's sort of like a mini-depression at times (another thing I've been through as well). I often call my Mum at times like this and she'll say something that will remind me of the situation I've been in, and then it all clicks in my head why I was feeling so bad!

My mum is actually part of a type of religion - yet I am hesitant to call it that - called Access: http://www.accessconsciousness.com/

It's funny because at times I feel the same resistance to it as I did with Christianity growing up (and still do). I guess I just don't like putting a name to things or having to answer to a "higher power". It makes ME feel powerless, like there's something bigger going on out there. I'd rather believe in myself and my own power to get through things.

 

[Daryll748]

Well... It scares me too... Religion should be 'comforting' but its taken sooo out of its context by humans... So 'abused' for greed and hidden agendas... To 'justifiy' "violence"... Did God... I do 'believe' in the lord or God... or a 'higher force' that we're connected to... Did He say "by any means necessary..." ?
I personally 'believe' more in "spirituality" ... In karma, in life after death, in a place called HOME but its not "earth"...
I was 'raised' as a Christian... Christian school and the whole church thing and all and it really 'bored' me... Where is the first human right there hey...
"all people are born equal in dignity and rights and should act in a spirit of brotherhood..." I never saw a lot of that... Anyway, I used to dream up stories while sitting there through hours of 'meaningless' mumble... We were like 'forced' by school to spend there all that 'valuable' time there... I mean HOW can you put faith and trust in a mumbling priest that does all those 'horrible' things in the dark??? I mean they are like politicians these days... All talk but no action, no backbone, no making the world a better place...

 

[FrankMusic1982]

Thank you, Alma, for your kind words and understanding. I guess I was a little too harsh, but you do understand why. I do apologize for any animosity.

The truth of the matter is yes, I am truly blessed; I am not ashamed to admit it. I am very musically talented, and I am very artistically creative as well. I also care very much about the people in my life, especially my friends in the gay community, as well as children (and, of course, my family and my dear boyfriend). In many ways, I am like Michael. As a matter of fact, I once volunteered to take care of children with cancer, which was the most rewarding experience of my life.

However, in terms of daily functioning, I am handicapped by my heightened sensitivity and numerous other deficiencies, almost debilitatingly so, depending on my surroundings. Some of those deficiencies include an inability to cope with negativity, and a low tolerance for pain, certain tactile sensations, and extreme tendencies toward anxiety and severe depression.

The reason why I am so rebellious toward religion is that gay teenagers are being brainwashed by society's religious indoctrination and committing suicide as a result, not to mention the hate crimes that are perpetrated against gays as well, all in the name of God. I almost ended up that way myself had it not been for the help I finally sought out. Homophobes still have not learned their lesson and will only continue to harm our gay youth if nothing is done about it. I feel that the tool they are using (i.e. religion) needs to be abolished, at least now in terms of forcing everyone to run their lives by it.

Hell, I even know a few homophobes within the Michael fan community, one of whom is dangerously in denial of the true reality of human sexuality and development. I will not mention names, but I will say that this person is someone who has been writing a blog as a means of eviscerating the media nonsense that drove Michael to death. Unfortunatey, they have used areas of the blog to air their negative feelings about homosexuality, using not only religious dogma, but factually inaccurate misconceptions based on unverified statistical research data as well, all of which is completely contradictory to the reality of true gays, including myself (and the reality of sexual development), not to mention the findings of both the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological association (but then again, this blogger does not live in America). Hell, the blogger is convinced that being gay is a choice, and that there is no such thing as gay children!

Anyway, as you understand, I am acting based upon the psychological abuse I endured in the name of religion, as well as the abuse that I am enduring now from society's word-of-mouth and from the blogger. Don't get me wrong; I do believe in God, but I don't believe that He is found in the pages of the Bible, but rather in your heart and mind. Still, it is very difficult to reconcile that with my traumatic past, especially since our gay youth are ending their lives becuse of it.

 

[FrankMusic1982]

Frank, I know what it's like to be highly sensitive as well. I've never been diagnosed with anything in particular, but I'm sensitive to the point that I can pick up on the mood of a room or a person and either start to feel extremely sick or happy or whatever depending on what that mood is. And I won't be aware of it at the time, I'll think, "why on earth am I feeling like this?" it's sort of like a mini-depression at times (another thing I've been through as well). I often call my Mum at times like this and she'll say something that will remind me of the situation I've been in, and then it all clicks in my head why I was feeling so bad!

My mum is actually part of a type of religion - yet I am hesitant to call it that - called Access: http://www.accessconsciousness.com/

It's funny because at times I feel the same resistance to it as I did with Christianity growing up (and still do). I guess I just don't like putting a name to things or having to answer to a "higher power". It makes ME feel powerless, like there's something bigger going on out there. I'd rather believe in myself and my own power to get through things.

Wow, you sound almost empathic. That is definitely a bessing and a gift, albeit an inconvenient one, as is my disability.

I also feel as though my parents took away my power too growing up. I am extremely reticent to even try to use my power to fight to get certain things, one of which was courting and flirting with other guys. That is why I suffered nearly a decade of psychosexual trauma: because I had been told during my formative years that it was wrong (until adulthood, that is, but not being able to wield the power during my formative years was like being denied certain nutrients and being adversely affected by it).

Hell, when I was a teen, I was further traumatized by a group of girls whose verbal flirtations bordered on sexual harassement. I called them vulgar names because my power had been taken away to flirt back under the belief that it was wrong to do so (not to mention the fact that I was more attracted to my male peers than the girls!).

Oh, I am sorry that I turned this discussion into one all about me, but I've been really depressed for the last two weeks. I thank you and everyone else for giving me an opportuntiy to express myself.

 

[ginvid]

Guys can you please not double, triple, etc, post? I would be very grateful. If you are the last poster and need to add more, pleae edit your post.

Thank you very much! :flowers:

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Thank you, Alma, for your kind words and understanding. I guess I was a little too harsh, but you do understand why. I do apologize for any animosity.

The truth of the matter is yes, I am truly blessed; I am not ashamed to admit it. I am very musically talented, and I am very artistically creative as well. I also care very much about the people in my life, especially my friends in the gay community, as well as children (and, of course, my family). In many ways, I am like Michael. As a matter of fact, I once volunteered to take care of children with cancer, which was the most rewarding experience of my life.

However, in terms of daily functioning, I am handicapped by my heightened sensitivity and numerous other deficiencies, almost debilitatingly so, depending on my surroundings. Some of those deficiencies include an inability to cope with negativity, and a low tolerance for pain, certain tactile sensations, and extreme tendencies toward anxiety and severe depression.

The reason why I am so rebellious toward religion is that gay teenagers are being brainwashed by society's religious indoctrination and committing suicide as a result, not to mention the hate crimes that are perpetrated against gays as well, all in the name of God. I almost ended up that way myself had it not been for the help I finally sought out. Homophobes still have not learned their lesson and will only continue to harm our gay youth if nothing is done about it. I feel that the tool they are using (i.e. religion) needs to be abolished, at least now in terms of forcing everyone to run their lives by it.

Hell, I even know a few homophobes within the Michael fan community, one of whom is dangerously in denial of the true reality of human sexuality and development. I will not mention names, but I will say that this person is someone who has been writing a blog as a means of eviscerating the media nonsense that drove Michael to death. Unfortunatey, they have used areas of the blog to air their negative feelings about homosexuality, using not only religious dogma, but factually inaccurate assertions based on unverified statistical research data as well, all of which is completely contradictory to the reality of true gays, including myself (and the reality of sexual development), not to mention the findings of both the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological association (but then again, this blogger does not live in America). Hell, the blogger is convinced tha being gay is a choice, and that there is no such thing as gay children!

Anyway, as you understand, I am acting based upon the psychological abuse I endured in the name of religion, as well as the abuse that I am enduring now from society's word-of-mouth and from the blogger. Don't get me wrong; I do believe in God, but I don't believe that He is found in the pages of the Bible, but rather in your heart and mind. Still, it is very difficult to reconcile that with my traumatic past, especially since our gay youth are ending their lives becuse of it.

I haven't had time to read all your posts, but indeed from what I have read you are as a matter of fact --understandably- so disappointed by the religion that you feel the need to express yourself with all the reasons why religion has been bad (to you).

However, bear in mind something, not all religions are the same and not all religions are as scary as they might seem. There are some people around learning things by heart like parrots. It's much more complex than that actually. For each inconsistancy, I am sure there must be a reason behind it. The only problem that we have is that the written religion is fragmented into scriptures, sheets, books, with missing information --sometimes crucial to the initial message, yet absent.

The only way to fill those gaps is the spirituality, the meditation, the reflection, the thinking, the heart, the brain, finding the answer to the constant "why"...

 

[FrankMusic1982]

Guys can you please not double, triple, etc, post? I would be very grateful. If you are the last poster and need to add more, pleae edit your post.

Thank you very much! :flowers:

Sorry Ginvid, I didn't realize that was a problem. I'll try to avoid that.