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TII, was the preperation rushed.

vncwilliam said:
aeg turned 10 into 50, without Michael knowing. aeg doesn't come across as on the up and up. contracts aren't respected, any more than the court of law is, these days. and you see how people treated Michael, despite court of law rulings..

money makes people forget respect.

people tend to look at Michael, and see someone who is wishy washy in business, just be looking at him. and they think a company can't possibly be underhanded, just because they are an established big, faceless company...or because they look like a traditional company has tended to look.

and both of those assessments are unfair.
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So if that is true why didn't Michael just say I'm only doing ten and that's it, no more.
 
^they already sold out on the 40 other dates. You cannot just cancel 40 concerts and dissapoint 800.000 people out of the blue. That would be like a career suicide. It would give both AEG and MJ such a bad name.
Remember all of the mad fans when Mike postponed the concert? Those were just the first 4 dates, yet all of the fans were outraged. Those coming from overseas could pretty much say goodbye to their money. Now imagine if Michael would have done that with 40 dates...it would have affected his fanbase and credibility as an artist in such a negative way. I don't even want to know what would have happen if he had done that.
 
Gottobethere said:
So if that is true why didn't Michael just say I'm only doing ten and that's it, no more.
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snorlaaax said:
^they already sold out on the 40 other dates. You cannot just cancel 40 concerts and dissapoint 800.000 people out of the blue. That would be like a career suicide. It would give both AEG and MJ such a bad name.
Remember all of the mad fans when Mike postponed the concert? Those were just the first 4 dates, yet all of the fans were outraged. Those coming from overseas could pretty much say goodbye to their money. Now imagine if Michael would have done that with 40 dates...it would have affected his fanbase and credibility as an artist in such a negative way. I don't even want to know what would have happen if he had done that
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although MJ has survived many things, career wise, and there was no way to guarantee that he couldn't survive, this time, either..i believe aeg felt there was no way MJ could escape, this time.

that's why i look at them with a cynical eye, right now.
 
In the "Staging the return" extra's Zaldy says that most of the outfits looked heavier than they actually were. The outfit Michael was going to dance in for WBSS looks like it was 100 pounds of glitter and stones, but as Zaldy said, the shoulder pads were really light, almost like a styrofoam, so who know's how much those outfits really weighed. The only one that I saw being a problem was the outfit he was going to use for WATW and HTW.
 
TII (if there really is such concert) seems to be rushed to me too. Needless to say, it caused a lot of stress on MJ, a perfectionist...
 
Too much speculation and not enough concrete evidence for my liking in this thread :(
 
Hess said:
Agreed.

I am sure Mike had the time he wanted. But I don't know more than anyone else.
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I'm with you in this one...
unless someone is an insider or works as a concert organizer for stars of MJ caliber I'm not gonna speculate about timing.

MJ is a perfectionist yes,but he was doing this for 40 year.
It's more than logical that big productions like this one are a little rushed,I work in the fashion world and you can bet that what appears to be a perfect fashion show is a total mess till the very last minute,with the designer and stylists changing outfits till the very end,some dresses are being finished minutes before the show even if it takes 4-6 months to prepare the whole concept.
It's a very very messy process,that's why I don't see any problems even with the Zaldy's costumes,the timing is just fine...I read somewhere that M didn't see the process and was not there to see the fitting stages,well it's just normal...to fit a dress it only takes hours,you don't need the model to be there.
And yes the costumes are less heavy then they look and it's not like M was going to wear them all,they are just outfits to choose from,still samples in some cases.
For someone like him,you have to prepare a lot of stuff he can choose from.
My 2 cents.
 
I think the TII tour was going to start like the Bad tour.
With the 1st leg being nothing more than an upgraded version of his previous (history) tour.
The more shows he's done, the more elements that are ready are added to the show.
The 2nd leg would've had the full complete show as it was ment to be.

Just my 2 cents.
 
snorlaaax said:
^they already sold out on the 40 other dates. You cannot just cancel 40 concerts and dissapoint 800.000 people out of the blue. That would be like a career suicide. It would give both AEG and MJ such a bad name.
Remember all of the mad fans when Mike postponed the concert? Those were just the first 4 dates, yet all of the fans were outraged. Those coming from overseas could pretty much say goodbye to their money. Now imagine if Michael would have done that with 40 dates...it would have affected his fanbase and credibility as an artist in such a negative way. I don't even want to know what would have happen if he had done that.
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I don't believe they would have sold the 50 dates without first knowing Michael would do them, have you heard this happening to other artists, he was still one of the most sought after entertainers in the world, he should have been calling the shots and if he wasn't then it was up to him to do so, he should have stipulated no more than 10 and if they sold more they would have to apologize and refund the 40.
 
Gottobethere said:
I don't believe they would have sold the 50 dates without first knowing Michael would do them, have you heard this happening to other artists, he was still one of the most sought after entertainers in the world, he should have been calling the shots and if he wasn't then it was up to him to do so, he should have stipulated no more than 10 and if they sold more they would have to apologize and refund the 40.
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the answer is in a statement you make. he was the most sought after..

how do we know he could handle thousands of people coming at him at the same time? how do we know people didn't take advantage of the army going after him? we don't know. we weren't in MJ's head..and we can't sound as if we should blame him for not being superman with these people.

a lot of times, we see a great successful image, and we assume that the person behind it is not human, because he could provide such a spectacular show, so, we put the world on his shoulders, mistakenly. remember the lyric to 'will you be there'? 'i'm only human'

he was the biggest artist in the world. perhaps he could handle the business in the BAD era..but this era, he was soo much bigger, and there was sooo much more demand. but he was still the same small human being.

and no..i don't believe another artist could handle this pressure, either. no other artist was ever put in such a demanding position..and..there are artists who were smaller in success stature, who died under the pressure. i think of Janis Joplin, for example.

it's really a repeated thing in history. people assume that the bigger the artist, the more business that artist could handle. ususally greedy demanding people give that artist more than they could bare. Elvis comes to mind, as well. there is no proof that the artist wanted this. i've heard that Elvis didn't want what was being forced on him, either.
 
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vncwilliam said:
the answer is in a statement you make. he was the most sought after..

how do we know he could handle thousands of people coming at him at the same time? how do we know people didn't take advantage of the army going after him? we don't know. we weren't in MJ's head..and we can't sound as if we should blame him for not being superman with these people.

a lot of times, we see a great successful image, and we assume that the person behind it is not human, because he could provide such a spectacular show, so, we put the world on his shoulders, mistakenly. remember the lyric to 'will you be there'? 'i'm only human'

he was the biggest artist in the world. perhaps he could handle the business in the BAD era..but this era, he was soo much bigger, and there was sooo much more demand. but he was still the same small human being.

and no..i don't believe another artist could handle this pressure, either. no other artist was ever put in such a demanding position..and..there are artists who were smaller in success stature, who died under the pressure. i think of Janis Joplin, for example.

it's really a repeated thing in history. people assume that the bigger the artist, the more business that artist could handle. ususally greedy demanding people give that artist more than they could bare. Elvis comes to mind, as well. there is no proof that the artist wanted this. i've heard that Elvis didn't want what was being forced on him, either.
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I wouldn't think you have to be superhuman to hire a manager and tell him what you want to do, telling your manager you won't do more than ten nights is hardly superhuman and if he comes back with more then ten don't sign the contract. If it was the pressure that forced Michael to do the concerts then surely there was the same pressure two years earlier when AEG first approached him and he turned them down that time.
 
Gottobethere said:
I really want to enjoy the movie and extra's and i am but it just feels like we are not seeing the full story.
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Thanks for takin' the words outta my chest!
This is exactly what I've just written in the other thread, too!
 
Is it true that Michael only turned up to a few rehearsals? If so maybe he didn't like over-rehearsing, maybe he thought it'd take the freshness and energy out of everything.

But I have to be honest and say he did seem to be getting the words of his songs mixed up. In IJCSLY Judith was singing the right words but Michael was getting a little mixed up. I fear the stress of the preparation and the thought of 50 shows was causing this forgetfulness. He needed more time.
I feel like Michael was controlled in some ways. Like someone said about the 50 shows etc. They probably talked him into it and then he couldn't pull out.

I read this just now: "Michael Jackson had so much more to give to the world, but his heart stopped under the incredible pressure that was forced on him for this grueling tour." Obviously none of us know the ins and outs but the insomnia I'm sure was fuelled and worsened by anxiety and stress.
 
Well I too agree that this was rushed, I have always felt this. Everything should have been in the final stages come May at least.

The costumes of Zaldy looked amazing, but if they were heavy I do not see why it would be used. The original Jackets that Mike used in the short films were heavy jackets, but the ones he used on tour were lightweight synthetic materials.

I am not sure but I think Randy Phillips said something to the effect that the contract Mike signed had an agreement for 10 shows, but they could extend it to 33 if there was a large demand. I really do not know how this could have happened because if Mike only wanted to do 10 shows, whoever read the contract should have seen that stipulation, unless it was somehow snuck in. And what about Phillips saying that Mike wanted to beat Prince's record of 21 shows, either he is telling the truth or he is shooting some serious shit.

Whatever happened, Mike wanted to do this show for his kids and the fans that is the only genuine part of this whole tragedy. I pray that we find out the truth and those responsible get what they deserve.
 
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Gottobethere said:
I wouldn't think you have to be superhuman to hire a manager and tell him what you want to do, telling your manager you won't do more than ten nights is hardly superhuman and if he comes back with more then ten don't sign the contract. If it was the pressure that forced Michael to do the concerts then surely there was the same pressure two years earlier when AEG first approached him and he turned them down that time.
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and it's possible they kept vexing MJ, and then convincing the fans through the media that he was going to do something he wasn't ready to do. and the fans were whipped up, and the media was giving people possibly the wrong impression. and it's not like everybody in MJ's camp were known for always being on the up and up...
people have stolen from him, and other things. he's gone through many mangers...not just one. we're talking about a lot of people...some of which saw money in their eyes. we already have AGE who said MJ did what he didn't do...
anything's possible, with this company, too. too many people for one person to deal with. like i said...he wrote lyrics in his songs about having too much to deal with.

he came to a press conference thinking he had ten shows. who knows what some underhanded people might have done with the contract, by the time he woke up to 50 and the fans were already buying tickets and expecting stuff before MJ knew what hit him. like i said..it's possible he was trapped. and too many people moved too fast all at one time.

now i see you told another poster, that you are left with many questi0ns, yourself, so i don't know why you keep going back and forth with me..
 
vncwilliam said:
and it's possible they kept vexing MJ, and then convincing the fans through the media that he was going to do something he wasn't ready to do. and the fans were whipped up, and the media was giving people possibly the wrong impression. and it's not like everybody in MJ's camp were known for always being on the up and up...
people have stolen from him, and other things. he's gone through many mangers...not just one. we're talking about a lot of people...some of which saw money in their eyes. we already have AGE who said MJ did what he didn't do...
anything's possible, with this company, too. too many people for one person to deal with. like i said...he wrote lyrics in his songs about having too much to deal with.

he came to a press conference thinking he had ten shows. who knows what some underhanded people might have done with the contract, by the time he woke up to 50 and the fans were already buying tickets and expecting stuff before MJ knew what hit him. like i said..it's possible he was trapped. and too many people moved too fast all at one time.

now i see you told another poster, that you are left with many questi0ns, yourself, so i don't know why you keep going back and forth with me..
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I'm going back and forth with everybody because i am trying to figure it out and i don't fully except your explanation, at the end of the day i just don't believe he woke up to 50 nights and there is nothing he could do about it, i feel like were just trying to blame everybody, the one decent person appears to be Mike but he wasn't in control and was being led by other people i just don't buy that.
 
Gottobethere said:
I'm going back and forth with everybody because i am trying to figure it out and i don't fully except your explanation, at the end of the day i just don't believe he woke up to 50 nights and there is nothing he could do about it, i feel like were just trying to blame everybody, the one decent person appears to be Mike but he wasn't in control and was being led by other people i just don't buy that.
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so...you are certain, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that one person(Michael) can keep hundreds and possibly thousands in line, and nobody could slip under the cracks?
 
I don't know if I believe the story that MJ just woke up one day and saw he was going 50 shows on the news. Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds?

Michael is not naive, nor is he stupid. Unless he was "under the influence" at the time he agreed to it, I can't see how AEG could do this without Michael's consent. Randy Phillips said that MJ agreed to do 50 shows on the condition that they got him a house in the country for the duration of the tour and also that they arrange a ceremony with the Guiness Book of Records on the 50th show. To me, that sounds very much like something Michael would say.

I know some of the stalker fans who followed Michael have said that he told them personally that he never agreed to 50 shows, but even if they're telling the truth, Michael wasn't beyond the occasional white lie.
 
MattyJam said:
I don't know if I believe the story that MJ just woke up one day and saw he was going 50 shows on the news. Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds?

Michael is not naive, nor is he stupid. Unless he was "under the influence" at the time he agreed to it, I can't see how AEG could do this without Michael's consent. Randy Phillips said that MJ agreed to do 50 shows on the condition that they got him a house in the country for the duration of the tour and also that they arrange a ceremony with the Guiness Book of Records on the 50th show. To me, that sounds very much like something Michael would say.

I know some of the stalker fans who followed Michael have said that he told them personally that he never agreed to 50 shows, but even if they're telling the truth, Michael wasn't beyond the occasional white lie.
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you can be brilliant, and still be betrayed. and many 'absurd' sounding things have happened in this world. it's the kind of world we live in. and sometimes the absurdness of something counts on you to think it sounds to absurd..that way, it could slip past you, and trick you.

your post seems to suggest that MJ could be a little underhanded, but AEG couldn't possibly be a little underhanded.
 
vncwilliam said:
you can be brilliant, and still be betrayed. and many 'absurd' things have happened in this world. it's the kind of world we live in.

your post seems to suggest that MJ could be a little underhanded, but AEG couldn't possibly be a little underhanded.
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I just fail to see how AEG could get away with selling out 40 extra dates without MJ's consent. There must've been contacts signed and there would've been serious legal repurcussions for AEG had they broken the terms of their contract.

It is plausable that MJ felt pressured into agreeing to 50 shows but these companies can't just announce shows without the arists consent. It doesn't happen to Madonna or Prince or U2 or any other act. Why would Michael be an exception? Michael would've had his lawyers looking over the paperwork explaining to him everything that it entailed.
 
MattyJam said:
I just fail to see how AEG could get away with selling out 40 extra dates without MJ's consent. There must've been contacts signed and there would've been serious legal repurcussions for AEG had they broken the terms of their contract.

It is plausable that MJ felt pressured into agreeing to 50 shows but these companies can't just announce shows without the arists consent. It doesn't happen to Madonna or Prince or U2 or any other act. Why would Michael be an exception? Michael would've had his lawyers looking over the paperwork explaining to him everything that it entailed.
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because...yes..i'll say it..Michael is wayy bigger than Prince, Madonna and the rest...and therefore the money possibilities are staggering. and money makes people do stupid evil things. MJ has gone through many lawyers in his life.

hell..it took him awhile to get used to TMez for his trial, because of the many lawyers that stiffed him, in the past.
the possibilities that people could have whispered in the ears of Mj's lawyers....it's a possibility.

and who says Madonna and Prince were never stiffed?

MJ said that the industry is full of sharks, charlatains, and the like. cut throat.

anything is possible.

and the bigger the artist, the greater the temptation.

to me, it looked like there was a process, where the media kept making MJ look like a bum, because he didn't want to tour. and the media kept whispering in fans' ears. at the very least, enough fans would be buzzing about MJ, and the idea of touring. and a lot of big companies took advantage of the power of the media. and MJ was just one person. he could only do so much screaming and hollaring, fast enough. and let's face it..there were many voices out there, that convinced many people that MJ was a bum..and he SHOULD be performing.

whether or not MJ was a bum, no longer became the issue. only what the media wanted people to perceive. and i feel that there were many shark type companies willing to take advantage of the swelling of tide of perception.

no..MJ was no bum. but we all know that the media can be a powerful serpent. and we all know that too many people find money to be a great mistress. and a lot of trickery can ensue.

with MJ's past tours, he was big. and maybe things worked out.. but with every passing tour, he became bigger. with this so called 'residency', MJ was sooo big, that it's easy to believe that people around him fell big time, to temptation. bigger than ever before for his past tours. this time, the money possibilities were UNIMAGINABLE. and therefore...so was the temptation.
 
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You still haven't explained to me how (from a legal standpoint) AEG could announce 40 extra shows without Michael having agreed to them beforehand?

I'm not saying it's completely implausable, but it's an extremely far-fetched theory...
 
MattyJam said:
You still haven't explained to me how (from a legal standpoint) AEG could announce 40 extra shows without Michael having agreed to them beforehand?

I'm not saying it's completely implausable, but it's an extremely far-fetched theory...
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far fetched. the best tricks are the far fetched ones. because if they're not far fetched, then, you'll be watching out for them.

when MJ did the press conference, it was clear 10 shows were in order.

one night, while MJ was sleeping, it turned into 50, according to reports.

the one thing that was truly documented was that MJ was on the phone with AEG and asked how long was this residency for? and AEG said almost a year.

that suggests that MJ didn't know about it. that's why he asked about it. apparently, it was done quickly while he was unaware...and the fans already bought the tickets.

does it matter, at this point, how illegal this sounds?

if MJ makes an announcement, at this point, the whole world has to try and get a refund. and we all know how nasty that process is, with the systems in place..and how on edge many fans already were, and how money is a tender issue with people. fans, included.

the media has already painted a tenuous picture of MJ.(it's unwarranted, but the fact is, the line between legal and court of public opinion, is blurred, in this world)

to me, it looked like he was trapped. and he certainly wasn't one to let his fans down.

to me...some evil corporate sharks took advantage of all that.
 
vncwilliam said:
far fetched. the best tricks are the far fetched ones. because if they're not far fetched, then, you'll be watching out for them.

when MJ did the press conference, it was clear 10 shows were in order.

one night, while MJ was sleeping, it turned into 50, according to reports.

the one thing that was truly documented was that MJ was on the phone with AEG and asked how long was this residency for? and AEG said almost a year.

that suggests that MJ didn't know about it. that's why he asked about it. apparently, it was done quickly while he was unaware...and the fans already bought the tickets.

does it matter, at this point, how illegal this sounds?

if MJ makes an announcement, at this point, the whole world has to try and get a refund. and we all know how nasty that process is, with the systems in place..and how on edge many fans already were, and how money is a tender issue with people. fans, included.

the media has already painted a tenuous picture of MJ.(it's unwarranted, but the fact is, the line between legal and court of public opinion, is blurred, in this world)

to me, it looked like he was trapped. and he certainly wasn't one to let his fans down.

to me...some evil corporate sharks took advantage of all that.
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Possible, but still, just a theory.

It's just as likely that MJ knew all along about the 50 shows and started back peddling and regretting his decision as they were drawing closer. The man has backed out of many agreements and contracts over the years but he couldn't see a way out of this one, which may have motivated him to tell fans he never agreed to it in the first place.

The truth is, we'll probably never know what really went down. I just don't blindely accept the story that MJ was unaware of the 50 shows.
 
MattyJam i can see your point too. I don't see how AEG wcould LEGALLY add 40 more shows without Michaels consent???.

Some people are to busy trying to find the bad guy in all this that they are losing perspective and logic.
 
MattyJam said:
Possible, but still, just a theory.

It's just as likely that MJ knew all along about the 50 shows and started back peddling and regretting his decision as they were drawing closer. The man has backed out of many agreements and contracts over the years but he couldn't see a way out of this one, which may have motivated him to tell fans he never agreed to it in the first place.

The truth is, we'll probably never know what really went down. I just don't blindely accept the story that MJ was unaware of the 50 shows.
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I agree with you, this is the most obvious conclusion.
 
vncwilliam said:
far fetched. the best tricks are the far fetched ones. because if they're not far fetched, then, you'll be watching out for them.

when MJ did the press conference, it was clear 10 shows were in order.

one night, while MJ was sleeping, it turned into 50, according to reports.

the one thing that was truly documented was that MJ was on the phone with AEG and asked how long was this residency for? and AEG said almost a year.

that suggests that MJ didn't know about it. that's why he asked about it. apparently, it was done quickly while he was unaware...and the fans already bought the tickets.

does it matter, at this point, how illegal this sounds?

if MJ makes an announcement, at this point, the whole world has to try and get a refund. and we all know how nasty that process is, with the systems in place..and how on edge many fans already were, and how money is a tender issue with people. fans, included.

the media has already painted a tenuous picture of MJ.(it's unwarranted, but the fact is, the line between legal and court of public opinion, is blurred, in this world)

to me, it looked like he was trapped. and he certainly wasn't one to let his fans down.

to me...some evil corporate sharks took advantage of all that.
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This is just all conspiracy theories, what has the media got to do with Michael's contract, do you honestly believe they sold tickets for 40 nights which they didn't have a contract signed for and no Michael was not getting bigger with every tour, he was at his biggest for Dangerous and bad tours when everybody in the world was an MJ fan but like it or not a lot of his popularity had waned since then.
 
elusive moonwalker said:
according to michael bush zaldys clothes werent even going to be used in the shows
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I wouldn't be surprised if what Michael Bush said was true. I think Michael would have used the Billie Jean, Thriller and Jackson 5 Medley Suit that Zaldy showed on the DVD extras. I think the costume for the opening of the concerts, was unsuitable for Michael's opening performances. When Michael has collaborated with other songwriters and producers on his albums, he doesn't always select there songs. I presume this to be true with designers he used to makes costumes for the This Is It and other tours and performances.

I think Michael would mainly have used the designs Michael Bush created for the This Is It concerts. I love Michael Bush's updated design of the Beat It jacket, and would have loved to have seen Michael Bush talk about his designs for the This It It DVD.

vncwilliam said:
aeg turned 10 into 50, without Michael knowing.
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I don't agree with this speculation that Michael only wanted to do 10 concerts. There is no way Michael would play the O2 Arena and not want to break Prince's record of 21 Nights at the O2 Arena. Michael will have known he was going to do a lot more concerts than 10. The original 10 was just a teaser to test the demand for tickets to see Michael Jackson in concert. This happened in November 1987 when at first only 3 concerts were announced for the 1988 Bad Tour concerts at Wembley Stadium, them 4 more were added.

The 50 concerts were spread out enough for Michael to have enough energy. My problem with the This Is It concerts, was always that I felt the announcement of the concerts in March 2009 and the start date in July 2009 were way too close. I'm sure somethings were in production and development before the the concerts were announced, but to have a stage designed, hire the best musicians, backing singers, dancers, technicans and rehearse etc etc, it a huge and overwhelming task to take in just 4 months. I always felt the This Is It concerts shouldn't have started until September 2010. If AEG is responsible for any part of Michael's death, it is for possibly working him too hard in too a short time scale.

I don't think Michael needed to be at rehearsals everyday. The dancers do chorographed dances routines and had Travis Payne to direct them. Michael would have known what his dancers would have been doing, and would have been their when they learned their routines and were ready to dance with him. Michael best dancing was always improvised movements away from choreogroaphy and dancers, which is another reaons why Michael wouldn't have been at all of his rehearsals, plus he always had a dance studio were every he lived.

Michael had been performing for over 40yrs, he will have known how to rehearsh his backing singers, and musicians etc. I'm sure Michael knew exactly what he was doing, and how important the This Is It concerts were to his reputation as an artists. Michael Beardon does sound a bit frustrated when he say's to Michael "we need you here" when they are rehearsing The Way You Make Me Feel. I'm sure he had good reason to to feel frustrated, but Michael's band, backing singers and dancers all seemed tight and ready for the This Is It concerts from what I see on the DVD. Even if somethings weren't ready for the concerts, I'm sure what we would have mseen would have been amazing enough for us not to notice what was missing.
 
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