Status hearings discussion thread / all threads merged

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 28th

I do think that at this late stage, we, here, should be supporting Michael and not disrespecting him, and that "devil's advocacy" should remain where it belongs. . . with the the DEVIL.

well said

 

[cinzia]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 28th

You sound very confident in this assertion. I don't think the judge will allow him to go there because it has nothing to do with Murray giving MJ propofol and killing him. Keep in mind Murray was broke too and that's why he took the job. Stick with the facts Soundmind. Murray is on trial not MJ. And also keep in mind that you already said there is no proof that MJ self-injected anything. The coroner said it was impossible because of where the IV was and Murray said he left for 2 minutes. There is no way MJ could've done all of that and laid back down perfectly flat in the bed and put the needles and bottle back on the table. Why are you changing your tune?

For clarity here: the coroner did not say it was impossible. The anesthesiologist consult states: "it would have difficult for the patient to administer the drugs...given the configuration of the IV set up."
She also goes on to say that: "anyone could have drawn up and administered the medications after the IV was started."
That's the part that's got me a little worried. If Murray was bolusing the junk and left the syringe inserted into the tubing they might try to use that as their 'out'. And remember we do not know that Michael was perfectly flat on the bed, do we? How would we know that?

As for standard of care, no one has ever done or conceived of propofol being used in these circumstances so medically speaking I'm pretty sure there's no 'standard of care' for the home administration of propofol. Murray was in uncharted territory here. And it is unbelievable that someone of his alleged experience would attempt such a thing, no matter how financially troubled he was. He was playing with someone's life. How could he not realize this? How could he not have thought out: what if something bad happens, how will I respond, how will I call for help, how will I resuscitate? I will be all alone, what will I do and how will I do it?
How could murray not have considered these basic, elementary questions? How could he not have had a plan? How has he made it 21 years with no malpractice or lawsuits if this is the kind of proactive thinking he uses?
I am so frustrated trying to understand how this happened it makes me want to hit something!!!

 

[xthunderx2]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 28th

Agree. Michael is not on trial here, although the defense will do all they can to make it seem that he is. Oh, and Michael's "shopping" has absolutely nothing to do with Murray's standard of care, which IS the issue. That really IS the issue, and anything personal about Michael is about as relevant as "hot-air balloons" were to the trial. Which is not relevant at all, and that jury saw through all that crap. I'm assuming/hoping Murray's trial will be the same -- and that common sense will prevail. There is NO common sense in delving into Michael's finances (and Murray's were abysmal), "shopping behavior," or any of the rest of it. In the end, Murray must be accountable for what happened. . on June 25, 2009. I do think that at this late stage, we, here, should be supporting Michael and not disrespecting him, and that "devil's advocacy" should remain where it belongs. . . with the the DEVIL.

Absolutely right on!!

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 28th

For clarity here: the coroner did not say it was impossible. The anesthesiologist consult states: "it would have difficult for the patient to administer the drugs...given the configuration of the IV set up."
She also goes on to say that: "anyone could have drawn up and administered the medications after the IV was started."
That's the part that's got me a little worried. If Murray was bolusing the junk and left the syringe inserted into the tubing they might try to use that as their 'out'. And remember we do not know that Michael was perfectly flat on the bed, do we? How would we know that?

As for standard of care, no one has ever done or conceived of propofol being used in these circumstances so medically speaking I'm pretty sure there's no 'standard of care' for the home administration of propofol. Murray was in uncharted territory here. And it is unbelievable that someone of his alleged experience would attempt such a thing, no matter how financially troubled he was. He was playing with someone's life. How could he not realize this? How could he not have thought out: what if something bad happens, how will I respond, how will I call for help, how will I resuscitate? I will be all alone, what will I do and how will I do it?
How could murray not have considered these basic, elementary questions? How could he not have had a plan? How has he made it 21 years with no malpractice or lawsuits if this is the kind of proactive thinking he uses?
I am so frustrated trying to understand how this happened it makes me want to hit something!!!

I always wondered what his plan was too? is he that cocky that he thought nothing would ever happen with giving someone anesthesia at home? why didn't he have any equipment? why didn't he have a plan as to how to save MJ if something went wrong? why the crash cart in another room? why was the oximeter in the closet? He obviously wasn't monitoring MJ's vitals at all. So why did he agree to give this knowing he wasn't prepared?

 

[bouee]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 28th

they are going to claim that MJ was broke, had out of control shopping habits and desperatly needed to do the concerts thus he needed to sleep , he begged for propofol that day and when Murray left to relieve himself , he selfinjected and accidently killed himself.

The judge will allow them to go there, he will allow them to go after Klien,simply because the prosecutors did not do their job and can't counter their accusations.
now we know the prosecutors did not even interview Tohme !

In other posts you said that Michael could not have self injected / drunk the propofol, based on medical facts.

So let's say the judge allows them subpeona Thome and Klein, what will it change if self injection can be disproved ? I don't see how it could help Murray, it's another hot air ballon story, it will make him look worse.

If we were able to come to these conclusions with the little info that we have, then the prosecution must have also.

Remember each side wants to give as little info as possible, we can not know what the prosecution has been doing based on just the prelim and the status hearings.

 

[cinzia]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 28th

I always wondered what his plan was too? is he that cocky that he thought nothing would ever happen with giving someone anesthesia at home? why didn't he have any equipment? why didn't he have a plan as to how to save MJ if something went wrong? why the crash cart in another room? why was the oximeter in the closet? He obviously wasn't monitoring MJ's vitals at all. So why did he agree to give this knowing he wasn't prepared?

Exactly! Cocky? God complex? This is not normal behavior from a doctor much less a cardiologist with 21 years experience. This is crazy behavior. Maybe that is what the defense will try next: innocent by reason of temporary insanity caused by the radiation emitted from prolonged use of his cell phones!
Sadly, some physicians are just so arrogant, they feel they can handle anything. And no one can tell them any differently. Now I'm wondering if Michael ever discussed this with murray, you know, say, oh my very experienced and vastly overpaid doctor, just what is your plan if something, oh, not good should happen to me? We will never know, of course. Was murray such a smooth talker? He must have had something for Michael to trust him with. his. life.
I want to know what it was. I hope the trial gives us believable answers.

 

[Diplomate]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 28th

So why did he agree to give this knowing he wasn't prepared?

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 28th

Exactly! Cocky? God complex? This is not normal behavior from a doctor much less a cardiologist with 21 years experience. This is crazy behavior. Maybe that is what the defense will try next: innocent by reason of temporary insanity caused by the radiation emitted from prolonged use of his cell phones!
Sadly, some physicians are just so arrogant, they feel they can handle anything. And no one can tell them any differently. Now I'm wondering if Michael ever discussed this with murray, you know, say, oh my very experienced and vastly overpaid doctor, just what is your plan if something, oh, not good should happen to me? We will never know, of course. Was murray such a smooth talker? He must have had something for Michael to trust him with. his. life.
I want to know what it was. I hope the trial gives us believable answers.

I agree.. Mike seemed to have wanted an anesthesiologist specifically. What made him think Murray was capable of doing this? Did MJ look around and notice there was nothing there to save his life like defibrillators, or any other equipment? This man had 21 years of experience why would he risk MJ's life like that? He had to have known the dangers of giving someone anesthesia without the proper equipment

 

[cinzia]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 28th

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Well, okay, that's true. Nevertheless, how could it not have occurred to murray that just suppose the unthinkable were to happen and Michael 'had a bad reaction...' all of those $$$$$ would stop coming and he'd been in a world of trouble with a potentially dead mega celebrity patient.
HOW COULD HE NOT HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT???
But he did think of it.
And so murray emailed AEG about equipment and additional support personnel and didn't get them in LA. Therefore he did realize he needed resus. equipment and an assistant. He DID know what was needed. Then why didn't he get them himself? Sure, medical equipment ain't cheap but he was getting or going to get a whole heap of money. Couldn't he have told Michael what he needed and gotten money from him for those things? Or was he afraid to ask, for some reason? Did he realize that no self respecting nurse or para professional would be willing to get involved in something that could (potentially) cost them their license?

Originally Posted by StacyJ
I agree.. Mike seemed to have wanted an anesthesiologist specifically. What made him think Murray was capable of doing this? Did MJ look around and notice there was nothing there to save his life like defibrillators, or any other equipment? This man had 21 years of experience why would he risk MJ's life like that? He had to have known the dangers of giving someone anesthesia without the proper equipment

And here it is again the question that keeps going around and around in my head. Why did he think murray was capable? Why, why, oh why?
And I don' think we will ever get an answer to this. Michael took it with him and murray isn't going to tell.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 28th

Exactly! Cocky? God complex? This is not normal behavior from a doctor much less a cardiologist with 21 years experience. This is crazy behavior. Maybe that is what the defense will try next: innocent by reason of temporary insanity caused by the radiation emitted from prolonged use of his cell phones!
Sadly, some physicians are just so arrogant, they feel they can handle anything. And no one can tell them any differently. Now I'm wondering if Michael ever discussed this with murray, you know, say, oh my very experienced and vastly overpaid doctor, just what is your plan if something, oh, not good should happen to me? We will never know, of course. Was murray such a smooth talker? He must have had something for Michael to trust him with. his. life.
I want to know what it was. I hope the trial gives us believable answers.

I agree not normal behavior at all. If anyone else came to him asking for something to help insomnia would he have recommended being put into a semi coma with anesthesia/propofol every night? Of course not... That is another question the prosecutors should ask him. They should ask him how many other of his patients did he use propofol on to help with insomnia? I bet the answer would be zero. Murray took advantage of MJ's problem. He didn't help him at all. He knows anesthesia is not REM sleep and he knows what he did was wrong and that is why he never mentioned it to the EMTs or the ER the staff. He knew they would've looked at him like he was crazy. He hid the vials before the EMTs came just for that reason

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 28th

And here it is again the question that keeps going around and around in my head. Why did he think murray was capable? Why, why, oh why?

cause he trusted him. we know mj was to trusting and when his dr told him he could do the job and knew what he was doing why would he not believe him.

 

[rita.gibson]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 28th

You know, at the end of the day, all of the defence witnesses will probably stumble on the stand one way or another, irrelavence will be the most they have. The best witness in that courtroom will be Michael himself, and the autopsy results are factual, I believe Murray 'Will' go to jail. If Murray puts himself out of the room.....he's done for, if he's in the room......he's done for. He's charged with Gross negligence and can't get away from that.

 

[Autumn II]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 28th

You know, at the end of the day, all of the defence witnesses will probably stumble on the stand one way or another, irrelavence will be the most they have. The best witness in that courtroom will be Michael himself, and the autopsy results are factual, I believe Murray 'Will' go to jail. If Murray puts himself out of the room.....he's done for, if he's in the room......he's done for. He's charged with Gross negligence and can't get away from that.

Absolutely agree. The charges are light, anyway, and the gross negligence is obvious. There will be attempts to assassinate Michael's character, and that will be awful, but in the end, that doesn't change what Murray did and did not do. There will be complex medical information, which won't change the fact that Michael died. If there is too much of that -- with discussions of amounts of meds found in which organs and which medical apparatus -- the jury may actually feel offended about the smoke and mirrors, compared to the autopsy report and coroner's finding. . "acute propofol intoxication."

What doctors Michael saw, and their medical records, in the end, have nothing to do with Murray. What medications Michael took in the past, also have nothing to do with Murray and his treatment/mistreatment of Michael. I think Murray will be convicted, easily.

 

[Diplomate]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 28th

Well, okay, that's true. Nevertheless, how could it not have occurred to murray that just suppose the unthinkable were to happen and Michael 'had a bad reaction...' all of those $$$$$ would stop coming and he'd been in a world of trouble with a potentially dead mega celebrity patient.
HOW COULD HE NOT HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT???
But he did think of it.

Murray is not a doctor. He's just someone who wanted money. ANYTHING FOR MONEY.

Go ask to your doctor if he can anesthetize you some nights in the week because you're insomniac and you want find a way to sleep.

0_o : it will be the reaction of your doctor.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 28th

Murray is not a doctor. He's just someone who wanted money. ANYTHING FOR MONEY.

Go ask to your doctor if he can anesthetize you some nights in the week because you're insomniac and you want find a way to sleep.

0_o : it will be the reaction of your doctor.

Exactly... if I was to ask my doctor to come over my house at night and put me in a propofol induced coma so that I can sleep I think she would get me admitted to the psychiatric ward or at least say hey there are other alternatives and I will help you in a sensible manner. Murray did nothing like that. He said oh sure I know how to do that, I can watch you, I'll take the job. I don't think he even gave MJ a physical exam to find out if there was anything wrong with him. He claims MJ was medically healthy yet he found it ok to sedate and anesthesize him nightly. That rememdy was only making MJ sick.

 

[rita.gibson]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing March 28th

Absolutely agree. The charges are light, anyway, and the gross negligence is obvious. There will be attempts to assassinate Michael's character, and that will be awful, but in the end, that doesn't change what Murray did and did not do. There will be complex medical information, which won't change the fact that Michael died. If there is too much of that -- with discussions of amounts of meds found in which organs and which medical apparatus -- the jury may actually feel offended about the smoke and mirrors, compared to the autopsy report and coroner's finding. . "acute propofol intoxication."

What doctors Michael saw, and their medical records, in the end, have nothing to do with Murray. What medications Michael took in the past, also have nothing to do with Murray and his treatment/mistreatment of Michael. I think Murray will be convicted, easily.

Yes the charges are light, as will be the sentence, but what will hurt him most will be the loss of his licence, and knowing that the world will know what a horrible, dispicable excuse of a doctor he is. He's a man who portray's himself as Mr nice guy and uses that licence to back him up. With or without it he is a nobody

 

[Sharon B. Sidney]

Todays Hearing

Moderators please pardon me, I'm typing this from my cell and want to get the info to you guys ASAP.

I just found out that John Branca has also recieved a subpoena and has filed a motion to quash that will be heard at todays hearing, possibly in camera. Arnold Kline's motion to quash will also be heard today. I will update you all with information if I am able to obtain any today.

God bless!!!

 

[~Lindsey~]

Re: Todays Hearing

thanks for the update

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Todays Hearing

thanks. the defence really are desperate

todays hearing due to start at 9am L.A time 17.00 BST

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing April 6th - Klein Subpoena

hearing today due to start at 09.00 L.A time (25 mins ago) and if sharons post about branca could be merged in here aswell.

 

[Sharon B. Sidney]

Re: Todays Hearing

Okay the hearing is over. It started at 9:20 due to a delay for Weitzman's presence. Just after Judge Pastor called court to order Weitman entered the courtroom.

Motion to quash was denied on both cases.

Defense is making claims that Michael was in such a desperate state regarding finances etc. they believe his financial history is relevant to Murray's defense.

Weitzman agreed to share some information with the defense but all agreed the subpoena was too broad.

I'll give a broader update once I'm at my computer.

 

[ivy]

Re: Todays Hearing

we'll be waiting for your update.

 

[Diplomate]

Re: Todays Hearing

It's become comic the way the defence is trying to not look stupid.

Too Bad. Since longtime we know how it will be the result :

Murray guity. That's it.

Thanks for the update Sharon.

 

[ivy]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing April 6th - Klein & Branca Subpoena

Dr. Klein hands over Michael Jackson's Records
by TMZ Staff

Michael Jackson's friend and dermatologist Dr. Arnold Klein was forced to turn over medical records today from the final months of Michael's life ... TMZ has learned.

Dr. Klein and his attorney handed over the documents during a pretrial hearing in Dr. Conrad Murray's manslaughter case.

Murray's team wants the paperwork to determine exactly what drugs Klein used to treat MJ. As TMZ reported ... Klein's medical records show he injected Michael with Demerol 51 times in the three months before he died.

Last month, Dr. Klein asked the judge to quash the subpoena for his records. Fail.

 

[StacyJ]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing April 6th - Klein & Branca Subpoena

what in the hell does his financial history have to do with Murray giving propofol? The judge needs to rule that what Murray did has nothing to do with anything. So did Murray's financial problems lead him to give MJ anesthesia at home when he knew it was wrong?

 

[twinklEE]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing April 6th - Klein & Branca Subpoena

what in the hell does his financial history have to do with Murray giving propofol? The judge needs to rule that what Murray did has nothing to do with anything. So did Murray's financial problems lead him to give MJ anesthesia at home when he knew it was wrong?

I dont get the financial history part either if anything Killer Murray's history need to be brought up in court as he was the one administring driprivan outside a hospital setting showing how HE would do anything for money, 150k to be precise.

 

[ivy]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing April 6th - Klein & Branca Subpoena

what in the hell does his financial history have to do with Murray giving propofol? The judge needs to rule that what Murray did has nothing to do with anything. So did Murray's financial problems lead him to give MJ anesthesia at home when he knew it was wrong?

Remember the reports of what Murray told to detectives? That Michael was saying that he needed propofol to sleep otherwise he would have to cancel the rehearsal? (add to that the riot act and claims of AEG threating Michael with pulling the plug on the shows if he keeps not showing up)

Most probably they will argue that Michael was in such a bad financial situation that cancelling TII (rehearsals and concerts) wasn't an option and as he was so desperate when he woke up with Murray out of the room he self injected / self drink propofol in the hopes of getting sleep but accidentally overdosed.

they are basically taking the claims against AEG , turning them around and planning to use them for their benefit.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing April 6th - Klein & Branca Subpoena

Weitzman agreed to share some information with the defense but all agreed the subpoena was too broad.

so the sub wasnt quashed but they agreed it was to broad? so the judge will rule like with thome over what exact questions can be asked.

who said mj wasnt gonna be the one trial!

 

[ivy]

AP Update

LOS ANGELES — A defense lawyer for Michael Jackson's doctor says the singer was so anguished about his deteriorating finances in his final days that he took desperate actions that caused his own death.

The statements by attorney Edward Chernoff came during a pretrial hearing Wednesday in the case of Dr. Conrad Murray, who has pleaded not guilty to involuntary manslaughter in Jackson's death.

Chernoff was asking to see Jackson's financial records to prove a theory he said was the crux of the defense.

The prosecution denounced it as an attempted sideshow to distract jurors and to smear Jackson's reputation. The judge refused to grant the subpoena saying it was overbroad, irrelevant and invaded Jackson's privacy.

Lawyers were ordered to return Thursday to continue screening prospective jurors with written questionnaires.

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=13310424

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Status hearings discussion thread / next hearing April 6th - Klein & Branca Subpoena

one question. shouldnt the judge be making a ruling as to whether even if the jury think mj injected/drank they can still find him guilty due to the coroners findings and the negligence of allowing his paitent to self inject/drink? becasue if the judge says that at the suming up stage it makes everything the defence is doing no redundant. you would think each side would want clarifaction on that. defence are pathetic. thats the defence for all the phonecalls for no monitoring equipment for the 20 min delay for delaying the ambulances departure from the house cause he was to busy trying to hide the evidence. the lawyers are scum for trying to get off a blantently guilty man