sexuality

[kindofdisco]

Neither am I.
I wasn't meaning to look down on you at all--all I was saying is that it's hard to buy your argument if you provide no objective backing for it.

Well, we're not born completely "blank" canvases. This much can be observed by analyzing genes and brain chemistry (i.e. mental illness being genetic).

This article tells of a fascinating study: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7456588.stm



Here is another interesting article: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002340883_gayscience19m.html

Of course, as you point out, homosexuality being exclusively genetic has not been conclusively proven without the shadow of a doubt, however--the evidence which has been found through these studies strongly suggests a correlation between homosexuality and genetic factors, all taking place before birth. Therefore, it is much more probable that homosexuality has genetic origins than it being a learned behaviour, thus, social "conditioning" would have no impact in its existence.

Like I said previously, presenting your hypotheses as fact and backing them up with subjective experiences doesn't really do much for them. The problem I have is that you seem to be making very broad/general statements (previously, I think you said you thought everyone was born bi but society conditions them towards heterosexual unions or something) and providing little more than personal experience to justify this view. Had you strictly talked about your experience, it would have been perfectly conversational, as you intended it to be, it seems. However, by making such statements, you've placed the burden of proof upon yourself.

I don't particularly care for friendliness--I prefer neutrality. Moreover, I didn't stomp over what you said--in fact, I said that your personal experiences provided a valuable viewpoint in regards to how society conditions us to discourage the expression of homosexual behaviour--so, I actually agreed with you in that society has a role in providing positive/negative feedback regarding the expression of homosexual behaviour. They would provide suitable and indeed relevant support had your argument been that, but they do not provide proper support for an argument that everyone is born bisexual, and some people (i.e. LindaVG) do not find homosexual relationships appealing because of "social conditioning."

By all means, continue on with this thread. Don't get defensive just because someone doesn't agree with what you're saying--we all contribute something of value at the end of the day.

First of all, I don't quite understand why you are being so hostile. I thought we were having a civil conversation. I never claimed to have any "proof" for my opinion, which I why I used the words I think or I believe a lot. You're the one who puts forward such a definitive argument (all people are born bi-sexual and those who think they are straight have been conditioned to feel that way) without offering any evidence to back it up. I don't think my example was extreme at all. You claim that people lose their interest in the same gender (i.e. go from bi to hetero) due to the fact that they are almost exclusively exposed to heterosexuality when they are growing up. So, the alternative is a case where a child grows up in a homosexual environment, right? According to your argument, these children would be more likely to retain their interest in the same gender, as homosexuality is the 'norm' for them growing up. However, there is substantial evidence that this claim is false. Children who grow up in homosexual households are not more likely to be gay as they are older, nor is there a difference between the % of homosexuals in very liberal societies (such as the NL) vs. more socially conservative societies (such as the US).



Of course, I agree.



I am not sure at what age children become aware of their sexual preference. I assume it will be around the age where puberty kicks in but I can't be sure. Anyway, I would slightly change your sentence and say that "...of course they're going to be conditioned to believe that that is what should happen to them later in life." In that sense, people are certainly conditioned. We learn from an early age that it is 'normal' to be heterosexual and in many cultures homosexuality is considered sinful and wrong. However, I do not believe that sexual orientation can be conditioned or changed by environmental factors. I believe it is given, it's a natural fact. Gay people exist even in the most repressive regimes where homosexuality is punished by death. I think the sense of sexual orientation in human beings is so strong that it cannot be ignored or conditioned. One can tell himself that he is heterosexual, but in the back of his mind he knows he is bi/gay. The only choice we have is to express or suppress our sexual preferences.



The first part of your anecdote (regarding your former perception of homosexuals) is clearly an example of societal conditioning and I think most people can relate to it. However, I do not believe this is what caused the feelings you could've had for girls to be squashed. If you genuinely felt sexually attracted to the same gender, this feeling would have been too strong to just forget about.



Of course I see what you're saying. But the fact remains that even when these children learn from an early age that homosexuality is as normal and functioning as heterosexuality, they are not more likely to be gay. How do you explain this?





Of course, I'm not saying that being left-handed is as serious as being gay But I actually think it makes a nice analogy. As you said, in the past left-handed people were forced to write with their right hand. My aunt is naturally left-handed but was conditioned to write with her right hand, and now she is able to use her right hand so well that you can't even tell it doesn't come naturally. Still, if you asked her, she would tell you she is left-handed. This reminds me of homosexuals that have been conditioned to engage in heterosexual relationships. They can pretend to be straight and seem sincere, but deep down they know they are gay. Also, the fact that left-handed people weren't allowed to write with their left hand in the past did not mean that left-handed people didn't exist back then. They just didn't express their natural instincts. Just like oppressive societies (e.g. in certain parts of the Middle East) may not allow homosexual activity, but that does not mean homosexuals do not exist in that part of the world. They just suppress their natural instincts.





Well, it wasn't intended to be condescending at all. I just wondered if you understood what I was getting at with the comparison to left-handed people as I indeed tend to write a lot of text and the main point might get lost in the middle. The fact that you took the analogy literally tells me you didn't quite get what I meant.

To be honest, I'm a pretty emotional person haha! I'm quoting both of you at the same time because I'm finding the same problem here.

I consider myself a fairly intelligent person, but like I said I'm not a scholar and I'm not studying at the level that probably the both of you are at. Heck, I'm at University but I'm in an Illustration degree! I'm an arty-farty-emotional-new-age kid.

That, and I tend to open my mouth and say a bunch of stuff about how I feel, and then sort of watch it's effect. I still believe that everyone is born bi, and you can probably give me all the scientific evidence in the world that proves that theory false and I'll still believe it. Liken it to Christians, if you will.

My point here is that I'm a naturally defensive person, and I know it's a bit of a childish quality but hey! This is what I believe, this is how I feel and yes I thought we were engaging in a conversation, not a scholarly debate. If we were debating, I wouldn't have come into the thread at all because I knew I wouldn't have the information to back it up.

When somebody starts a sentence with "I believe..." that usually means that they're going to state something that doesn't have research to back it up, and comes from what they feel within. So honestly, you can attack it all you like but I was just saying how I felt. And I can't deny that. *shrugs*

Marquis, in relation to you not wanting to be "friendly", I'll see how far that gets you in life.

 

[LindavG]

To be honest, I'm a pretty emotional person haha! I'm quoting both of you at the same time because I'm finding the same problem here.

I consider myself a fairly intelligent person, but like I said I'm not a scholar and I'm not studying at the level that probably the both of you are at. Heck, I'm at University but I'm in an Illustration degree! I'm an arty-farty-emotional-new-age kid.

Trust me, I am no expert in this kind of stuff either I must say, I am quite humbled in the presence of Marquis lol, she is like a walking encyclopaedia! My opinion is just based on personal experience, intuition and logic, just like yours. We just happen to reach different conclusions. You basically claim that I am a bi-sexual in denial, even though I know for sure that I do not feel any physical attraction to the same gender and never have. Imagine me telling you "You are into old Asian men, you just don't know it yet" (no offense to old Asian men). That's how it comes across to me. If I did have any bi-sexual feelings, I'd be perfectly cool with it and I know my family and friends would be too. But the truth is I don't, so I know for a fact that your theory is incorrect at least for me. I believe the vast majority of people are naturally heterosexual (which makes sense from an evolutionary pov) and some people are naturally homosexual or bi-sexual.

That, and I tend to open my mouth and say a bunch of stuff about how I feel, and then sort of watch it's effect. I still believe that everyone is born bi, and you can probably give me all the scientific evidence in the world that proves that theory false and I'll still believe it. Liken it to Christians, if you will.

You are entitled to your belief of course, but I don't understand why you would want to cling onto a belief so badly even if it were scientifically proven to be false.

When somebody starts a sentence with "I believe..." that usually means that they're going to state something that doesn't have research to back it up, and comes from what they feel within. So honestly, you can attack it all you like but I was just saying how I felt. And I can't deny that. *shrugs*

I don't feel like Marquis or I were attacking your opinion, but when you post something as controversial as you did you can expect people to question your argument, that's all.

 

[Severus Snape]

I consider myself a fairly intelligent person, but like I said I'm not a scholar and I'm not studying at the level that probably the both of you are at. Heck, I'm at University but I'm in an Illustration degree! I'm an arty-farty-emotional-new-age kid.

There's nothing wrong with being emotional/artsy. I'm into art myself. I'm self-taught, so I'm nowhere near as good as you. I've seen your work and I think it's very beautiful (off-topic, but needed to be said). With that said, I'm no scholar myself--I'm only an undergraduate freshman--we've done nothing of interest thus far, certainly nothing scholarly whatsoever--only the usual required courses everyone has to take. I digress...

Thank you for explaining your situation, though. There is certain merit in personal experiences--I stand by my original statement regarding your personal experiences and the insight they provide into the way society shapes our attitude towards and willingness to express same sex attraction.

I thought we were engaging in a conversation, not a scholarly debate. If we were debating, I wouldn't have come into the thread at all because I knew I wouldn't have the information to back it up.

When somebody starts a sentence with "I believe..." that usually means that they're going to state something that doesn't have research to back it up, and comes from what they feel within. So honestly, you can attack it all you like but I was just saying how I felt. And I can't deny that. *shrugs*

Marquis, in relation to you not wanting to be "friendly", I'll see how far that gets you in life.

It is a conversation, but like Linda said, whenever someone applies their beliefs/opinions to the general populace, it's stepping into dangerous territory. In the worst of cases, it can even be offensive (I'm not saying yours was, but others can be). We'll leave it at that, though, as you've already explained your reasons for adhering to your belief despite evidence to the contrary.

As for my hesitation to display friendliness, I rather prefer polite neutrality. Politeness, objectiveness, and kindness get you far in life--not friendliness. As Thomas Jefferson once said, one ought to "be polite to all, but intimate with a few." I place friendliness in the realm of mild intimacy, something reserved for acquaintances and the like, not the general populace.

Trust me, I am no expert in this kind of stuff either. I must say, I am quite humbled in the presence of Marquis lol, she is like a walking encyclopaedia!

Let this be a testament to my lack of a proper life!

Don't feel humbled--I assure you I'm nothing special. I just like to read about a lot of things--I have eclectic interests. I reckon you could say I'm somewhat of a Renaissance man.

 

[kindofdisco]

Trust me, I am no expert in this kind of stuff either I must say, I am quite humbled in the presence of Marquis lol, she is like a walking encyclopaedia! My opinion is just based on personal experience, intuition and logic, just like yours. We just happen to reach different conclusions. You basically claim that I am a bi-sexual in denial, even though I know for sure that I do not feel any physical attraction to the same gender and never have. Imagine me telling you "You are into old Asian men, you just don't know it yet" (no offense to old Asian men). That's how it comes across to me. If I did have any bi-sexual feelings, I'd be perfectly cool with it and I know my family and friends would be too. But the truth is I don't, so I know for a fact that your theory is incorrect at least for me. I believe the vast majority of people are naturally heterosexual (which makes sense from an evolutionary pov) and some people are naturally homosexual or bi-sexual.

See, to me you're doing the same "if somebody told you to jump off a bridge" argument again, and I find it very frustrating haha! To me, there is nothing offensive in my OWN opinion that everyone is born bi. Why would you find that offensive? Do you find people who are attracted to the same sex repulsive? And actually, for the record I kind of find older Asian men attractive, haha! I honestly do, particularly ones of Chinese descent. So your statement there is actually based on a little bit of fact for me!

You are entitled to your belief of course, but I don't understand why you would want to cling onto a belief so badly even if it were scientifically proven to be false.

I'm not "clinging onto a belief", it's just how I feel and I'm a stubborn old thing, haha! Science can't prove everything, particularly human emotions.

I don't feel like Marquis or I were attacking your opinion, but when you post something as controversial as you did you can expect people to question your argument, that's all.

I did feel that way, and like I said I put it down to me being a particularly emotional person. Hey, it's not the best quality in the world and I'm not defending it. But that's just the way I am, I felt upset by your words and that's for me to deal with.

There's nothing wrong with being emotional/artsy. I'm into art myself. I'm self-taught, so I'm nowhere near as good as you. I've seen your work and I think it's very beautiful (off-topic, but needed to be said). With that said, I'm no scholar myself--I'm only an undergraduate freshman--we've done nothing of interest thus far, certainly nothing scholarly whatsoever--only the usual required courses everyone has to take. I digress...

I'm 100 percent self taught as well, just throwing that in there. I've definitely grown better because of being in a structured degree, but the essence of my work - which isn't all that good anyway, in my opinion! - is from me sitting at home every night after school and just drawing, haha!

I agree with what Linda said, it's quite well...intimidating how much you know. That's why I keep saying that I'm not any sort of scholar, because I feel kind of redundant in any conversation or debate I come across on this forum that you've posted in. I don't have a good brain for holding information, my heads are in the clouds too much. You on the other hand are full of useful things, which I wish I was!

It is a conversation, but like Linda said, whenever someone applies their beliefs/opinions to the general populace, it's stepping into dangerous territory. In the worst of cases, it can even be offensive (I'm not saying yours was, but others can be). We'll leave it at that, though, as you've already explained your reasons for adhering to your belief despite evidence to the contrary.

I tried to NOT apply my beliefs to the general population though, I did say that I believed - as in my opinion, as in what my brain turns over when I'm going to sleep tonight, blah blah blah - I believe that people are born bi. Doesn't make it the truth, doesn't make it right or wrong or whatever. It's how I feel, and if others are offended by that then that's their burden to deal with. Just like it's my burden when I feel offended by someone else's words. I can't make someone feel a certain way, they choose to react however they want.

As for my hesitation to display friendliness, I rather prefer polite neutrality. Politeness, objectiveness, and kindness get you far in life--not friendliness. As Thomas Jefferson once said, one ought to "be polite to all, but intimate with a few." I place friendliness in the realm of mild intimacy, something reserved for acquaintances and the like, not the general populace.

I guess that makes us very different people then! I believe in being friendly to everyone, you never know who might benefit from that friendliness. And I've too long been a part of the "defensive" way of living my life, and I know the negative affects on it. I like to be open with people, because this is who I am and nothing's going to change that. Woah, talk about a line from a self help book, haha!

Let this be a testament to my lack of a proper life!

Hey man, I feel you here. I live in a shoebox, haha!

Don't feel humbled--I assure you I'm nothing special. I just like to read about a lot of things--I have eclectic interests. I reckon you could say I'm somewhat of a Renaissance man.[/QUOTE]

 

[suzynyc]

I was surprised to hear that NY hadn't legalized gay marriage before, I always thought NY was quite liberal and had a strong gay rights movement. Anyway, it's great to see more and more places recognizing gay rights. Personally, I'm proud that my country was the first in the world to legalize gay marriage, even though I am straight myself. I just support human rights in general

I think the hold up had to do with the right wing politicians who were in office for so many years (Mayor Giuliani and Governor Pataki). It was partly due to our current democratic Governor Cuomo fully supporting the cause that helped to get the bill passed this time.

 

[Severus Snape]

I'm 100 percent self taught as well, just throwing that in there. I've definitely grown better because of being in a structured degree, but the essence of my work - which isn't all that good anyway, in my opinion! - is from me sitting at home every night after school and just drawing, haha!

Ah, so we're both like Abe Lincoln, then! He was a master of the self-taught craft. Very admirable man in all respects, by the way.

Really off-topic, but here is a humble sample of my work: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ravenhearted/sets/72157627095782891/show/
(shameless advertising, lol).

I agree with what Linda said, it's quite well...intimidating how much you know. That's why I keep saying that I'm not any sort of scholar, because I feel kind of redundant in any conversation or debate I come across on this forum that you've posted in. I don't have a good brain for holding information, my heads are in the clouds too much. You on the other hand are full of useful things, which I wish I was!

I have a very weird way of holding information--I'll get into this really detailed explanation of something, only to completely forget what I was talking about halfway through! Some professor I'll make someday! :no: I've also found that I completely lack common sense, from what I have been told, lol. Don't feel intimidated: I daresay my head is in the clouds more often than not!

I tried to NOT apply my beliefs to the general population though, I did say that I believed - as in my opinion, as in what my brain turns over when I'm going to sleep tonight, blah blah blah - I believe that people are born bi. Doesn't make it the truth, doesn't make it right or wrong or whatever. It's how I feel, and if others are offended by that then that's their burden to deal with. Just like it's my burden when I feel offended by someone else's words. I can't make someone feel a certain way, they choose to react however they want.

Yeah, but I reckon the only good advice I can grant is: avoid absolute statements. You are right in saying that people choose how they react to things, however.

I guess that makes us very different people then! I believe in being friendly to everyone, you never know who might benefit from that friendliness. And I've too long been a part of the "defensive" way of living my life, and I know the negative affects on it. I like to be open with people, because this is who I am and nothing's going to change that. Woah, talk about a line from a self help book, haha!

Politeness and kindness suffice, I think. Some people are more extroverted than others--I happen to be an almost complete introvert--it has naught to do with defensiveness. We do seem to be very different.

 

[kindofdisco]

I think we're getting waaaaay off topic here, so I'll wrap this all up and say no hard feelings! And you're awesome and I like you. And other awesome stuff.

And sexuality is cool.

 

[Severus Snape]

I think the hold up had to do with the right wing politicians who were in office for so many years (Mayor Giuliani and Governor Pataki). It was partly due to our current democratic Governor Cuomo fully supporting the cause that helped to get the bill passed this time.

I've heard that while NYC is pretty liberal, but other areas in the state (i.e. Long Island, where Catholicism is popular) are pretty bloody conservative. That might be the reason why it was delayed for so many years? I don't live there, so I really don't know--however, I'm throwing that in as a potential explanation for the delay.

 

[Travis]

I am not a scholar, or a teacher or a professor. Of course I would back up my argument with personal experiences, because we are having a conversation here, not a high-level debate. And I'd appreciate it if you were a little more friendly and didn't stomp all over everything with your apparent high-level of intelligence. It's really not an attractive quality, and turns me off from wanting to continue this lively and interesting conversation.

However, I will ask you for proof that humans are "born" with their preferred sexuality. Because I have never seen anything solid in relation to that, I believe that we are born a blank canvas and develop based on our surroundings and what we are exposed to.

I totally disagree with this theory. Social conditioning certainly play it's role in certain conditions and scenarios but some things are on a biological/molecular level. Sexuality is one of them. Everyone has already brought up great examples and debate as to the why and hows.

 

[MJ~And~Me]

How do I get a boyfriend then ?

 

[LindavG]

See, to me you're doing the same "if somebody told you to jump off a bridge" argument again, and I find it very frustrating haha!

What do you mean? The "if somebody told you to jump off a bridge" argument refers to a situation where a person tries to evade responsibility by saying "somebody else made me do it". I don't see how that applies here. All I did was repeat your own argument and explain why I believe it's incorrect.

To me, there is nothing offensive in my OWN opinion that everyone is born bi. Why would you find that offensive? Do you find people who are attracted to the same sex repulsive? And actually, for the record I kind of find older Asian men attractive, haha! I honestly do, particularly ones of Chinese descent. So your statement there is actually based on a little bit of fact for me!

I don't find it offensive at all. I just don't like being labled something I'm not. As I said in my previous posts, I support gay rights and I would be perfectly cool with being bi-sexual, but the fact is I'm not. If you claimed I was black and I denied it and told you I was certainly white, does that make me a racist? Cause that's kinda what you are saying here. I really don't see how you could ever infer from any of my posts that I find homosexuals "repulsive".

I'm not "clinging onto a belief", it's just how I feel and I'm a stubborn old thing, haha! Science can't prove everything, particularly human emotions.

Well, you did say that you will continue to believe this theory no matter how much scientific evidence disproves it. To me, that qualifies as "clinging onto a belief".

I did feel that way, and like I said I put it down to me being a particularly emotional person. Hey, it's not the best quality in the world and I'm not defending it. But that's just the way I am, I felt upset by your words and that's for me to deal with.

If I upset you then I am sorry for that, I didn't mean to. It's nothing personal, I just don't agree with your theory. If you had said "some people are born bi-sexual but are conditioned to only express their sexual preferences for the opposite sex" I would have agreed with you, though.

 

[kindofdisco]

What do you mean? The "if somebody told you to jump off a bridge" argument refers to a situation where a person tries to evade responsibility by saying "somebody else made me do it". I don't see how that applies here. All I did was repeat your own argument and explain why I believe it's incorrect.

It refers to taking the most extreme situation from an argument, as you keep doing. For example, you've now added race into the mix.:

If you claimed I was black and I denied it and told you I was certainly white, does that make me a racist? Cause that's kinda what you are saying here. I really don't see how you could ever infer from any of my posts that I find homosexuals "repulsive".

You're applying an "extreme" situation to the argument. Do you understand what I'm saying here? I really hope you do.

 

[LindavG]

It refers to taking the most extreme situation from an argument, as you keep doing. For example, you've now added race into the mix.:



You're applying an "extreme" situation to the argument. Do you understand what I'm saying here? I really hope you do.

No, I don't understand it because I don't think I am using "extreme" situations in this context. It is the exact same line of thinking that you apply and I am using similar examples to show you how absurd (imo) that sort of reasoning is. It may appear extreme because your whole argument is extreme. You claim that I am bi-sexual, I tell you I'm not, and somehow you interpret that to mean that I find people who are attracted to the same gender repulsive. How is that any different from you claiming I am black, I tell you I am not, and you interpret that to mean that I find black people repulsive? It is the exact same line of reasoning. The other "extreme" situation in your opinion was when I used the example of a child growing up in a gay environment, to counter your example of children growing up in a heterosexual environment. It is relevant to this discussion because the fact that children who grow up in a gay environment are not more likely to be gay when they are older easily disproves your theory that sexual orientation is entirely dependent on social conditioning.

What about homosexuals btw? Do you also think that they are actually bi-sexual but they are "conditioned" to only focus on people of the same gender? If so, how does that type of conditioning take place when you acknowledged yourself that people are taught from an early age to consider relationships with the opposite sex as normal and desirable?

 

[qbee]

How do I get a boyfriend then ?

The same way you make friends. You meet people talk to them and form relationships and friendships
Sometimes it evolves into sexual attraction or even love. I hope that helps.

 

[Severus Snape]

The same way you make friends. You meet people talk to them and form relationships and friendships
Sometimes it evolves into sexual attraction or even love. I hope that helps.

Lol, that explains why I don't have one, then!

What are these friendships you speak of? :scratch:

 

[kindofdisco]

No, I don't understand it because I don't think I am using "extreme" situations in this context. It is the exact same line of thinking that you apply and I am using similar examples to show you how absurd (imo) that sort of reasoning is. It may appear extreme because your whole argument is extreme. You claim that I am bi-sexual, I tell you I'm not, and somehow you interpret that to mean that I find people who are attracted to the same gender repulsive. How is that any different from you claiming I am black, I tell you I am not, and you interpret that to mean that I find black people repulsive? It is the exact same line of reasoning. The other "extreme" situation in your opinion was when I used the example of a child growing up in a gay environment, to counter your example of children growing up in a heterosexual environment. It is relevant to this discussion because the fact that children who grow up in a gay environment are not more likely to be gay when they are older easily disproves your theory that sexual orientation is entirely dependent on social conditioning.

What about homosexuals btw? Do you also think that they are actually bi-sexual but they are "conditioned" to only focus on people of the same gender? If so, how does that type of conditioning take place when you acknowledged yourself that people are taught from an early age to consider relationships with the opposite sex as normal and desirable?

Okay you seriously need to stop looking into what I said so much, haha! Honestly, it wasn't that deep to begin with. Perhaps making sweeping statements such as the one about everyone being bi-sexual was wrong in your view, but to me it's just something I believe in and that's that. If you want to argue with it, fine. I didn't say it to start a debate, I was just throwing my view in there about a thread on sexuality. Plain and simple.

Take a breather, and do what Marquis did with me and agree to disagree. See how our end of the supposed "argument" has ended because we came to a point? I'm not understanding why you're still going on with this, so I'm going to be the one to say let's agree to disagree.

 

[spoonie]

I'm straight, I've never had any gay/bi feelings myself but I have plenty of friends who are gay/bisexual and I don't see them as different, they're still people and my friends. I support heterosexuals, homosexuals, bi-sexuals and asexuals because they're all people at the end of the day

 

[LindavG]

Okay you seriously need to stop looking into what I said so much, haha! Honestly, it wasn't that deep to begin with. Perhaps making sweeping statements such as the one about everyone being bi-sexual was wrong in your view, but to me it's just something I believe in and that's that. If you want to argue with it, fine. I didn't say it to start a debate, I was just throwing my view in there about a thread on sexuality. Plain and simple.

Take a breather, and do what Marquis did with me and agree to disagree. See how our end of the supposed "argument" has ended because we came to a point? I'm not understanding why you're still going on with this, so I'm going to be the one to say let's agree to disagree.

See, this is what I dislike about MJJC. Everything is so superficial. As soon as you want to discuss some 'deeper' stuff like sexuality or try to have an intelligent debate, you are told to just "agree to disagree" and move on. But whatever.

 

[Ashtanga]

I support heterosexuals, homosexuals, bi-sexuals and asexuals because they're all people at the end of the day

Me too. -_-

 

[MJnVA]

Straight. I really like the penis. I just don't like the attachments that come with them. They annoy me.

 

[kindofdisco]

See, this is what I dislike about MJJC. Everything is so superficial. As soon as you want to discuss some 'deeper' stuff like sexuality or try to have an intelligent debate, you are told to just "agree to disagree" and move on. But whatever.

I for one like my superficiality. It makes me terribly interesting.

 

[Severus Snape]

Almost Normal is an interesting film which explores how society in its present state represses homosexual expression, and offers an alternative "what if" scenario where the protagonist, a middle-aged gay man, is transported back in time to his high school days--except, instead of heterosexuality being the norm, gay relationships are what is expected of everyone:



The only part where I feel the film fails is in having the protagonist fall in love with a girl after the "normal" standard changes from heterosexual to homosexual. I dislike this part of the plot because it makes it seem as though sexual orientation is a choice--we know better than that, I hope. However, seeing as the director of the film (Marc Moody) is a gay man, I'm sure the movie wasn't meant to portray that message. I reckon the change could also be meant to portray the message that you're not always going to fit in(?) and that people's prejudices are really detrimental to all involved. It's hard to really pin down what his point was with this--the film was very roughly done, however, I think the reverse scenario he created with heterosexuals being discriminated and homosexuals being the dominant group is pretty interesting, and is the only reason I mention the film to begin with.

 

[xo_lola_xo]

It makes me sick that some people see two men fighting and think it's "normal" and two men kissing is "gross."

Personally, I'd rather see them kiss.

A woman I once knew said that she doesn't really mention that she's a lesbian because she doesn't want to anger/offend people. I was like offend people for being gay? If I was gay, I'd say to those straight people : "Oh well then, you offend me for being straight." Didn't like that, did you?

 

[SheilaMJFan4Ever]

So you believe that sexual orientation is predominantly determined by environmental factors? In other words, if a child grows up in a gay household or gay environment and thus sees homosexuality as the 'norm' growing up, he is more likely to be gay when he's older? I don't believe that and there is substantial evidence to disprove that. If the environment has such a decisive impact on someone's sexual orientation, how come two people in the same family can have different preferences? I grew up in a very liberal society, where it is common for celebrities to be openly gay (heck, even the mayor of my city is gay and married to a famous presenter) and yet the % of homosexuals isn't any higher than in other countries. I believe that sexual orientation in itself is completely independent of outside factors such as the media or education, but the choice of whether or not you give into these feelings can be affected by societal pressures; not just with regard to homosexuality but to anything that is considered 'abnormal', like polygamy, paedophilia or bestiality. Please don't misinterpret this statement: I don't have anything against (sexual) relationships involving consenting adults, which is why I don't have any personal objections against homosexuality or polygamy (contrary to the other two examples that lack the element of active consent). What I am trying to say is I don't think these are 'learned' behaviours, these preferences are natural for some people and cannot be changed. That's why I do not believe people who say they have been "cured" from their homosexuality.

I am a left-handed person. We constitute around 10% of the population (coincidentally, similar to the % of homosexuals). Society is entirely dominated by right-handed people, which you will probably not notice unless you are part of that 10% minority. Basically, being left-handed is very inconvenient in today's world as nearly all products are designed for right-handed people. Furthermore, it is not very practical as it requires a lot more effort to write and paint for left-handed people due to the movement of "pushing" the pen/brush forward with your fingers rather than "pulling" it towards you with your wrist. Probably for these reasons, I was constantly encouraged when I was younger and started to learn how to write to use my right hand instead of my left. My teacher would often ask me: "Are you sure you want to write with this hand? Wouldn't you rather try the other one, like the rest of the class?" I didn't, because writing with my right hand just doesn't feel natural to me. Despite the discomfort and impracticality it brings, left-handed people have persisted to exist throughout history. You cannot choose your 'prefered hand' although you can learn to become proficient with the unnatural hand. Some people are naturally right-handed, some are left-handed and some are ambidextrous. Although the latter two are significantly less common, it doesn't mean that they are any less natural.

^ I hope you understand what I'm trying to say with this analogy

Your example of left-handedness was on point. I too am a lefty and recall my teacher taking the pencil out of my left hand and putting it in my right hand, but I'd always write with my left hand, anyway. That nonsense stopped when my mother bluntly told my teacher, "She's left handed. Get over it!" I am the only one of my siblings that is left-handed, too. Even my parents were right-handed, so, me growing up in a right-handed family and society didn't "condition" me to become right-handed. That isn't natural to me and never will be. That's how I view homosexuality: it isn't natural to me, but it is for some and that's the way it is. Like my mom said, "GET OVER IT!"

Rofl

 

[Travis]

Your example of left-handedness was on point. I too am a lefty and recall my teacher taking the pencil out of my left hand and putting it in my right hand, but I'd always write with my left hand, anyway. That nonsense stopped when my mother bluntly told my teacher, "She's left handed. Get over it!" I am the only one of my siblings that is left-handed, too. Even my parents were right-handed, so, me growing up in a right-handed family and society didn't "condition" me to become right-handed. That isn't natural to me and never will be. That's how I view homosexuality: it isn't natural to me, but it is for some and that's the way it is. Like my mom said, "GET OVER IT!"


Rofl

Brilliant post! Love it. ^_^

 

[LadyinHisLife80]

I´m straight and I fully support the gay community. I don´t understand homophobia. One thing it´s not agreeing with gays but accept them, one completely different is hating.

 

[nickzark]

straight

 

[MJ~And~Me]

thank you for the video

 

[Rudolf]

I think this thread leads nowhere cause there are endless discussions about it that won't stop...

 

[Ashtanga]

I think this thread leads nowhere cause there are endless discussions about it that won't stop...

Yes.... :fear: