Prelim Hearing-4/1/11 Discussion Thread-All discussion here

[AnnieRUOkay89]

if he was still alive, then his eyes would have shut, if he was dead(which i believe) they may have stayed open but i dnt think so. i think he would have lifted them up and they would have went back down, not stayed open.

If he was already gone, depending on how long, his eye's would remain the same as if someone had opened them. If I'm not mistaken, eye fluid dries up sometime after the body shuts down. CPR would be the most plausible reason to why his mouth may have been open.

idk how true this is... but someone said that when they were getting certified in CPR, they learned that only nurses and perimedics are required to learn it, not doctors. that isnt the first time i heard that either, it just brought it back to memory.

I don't know about that, interesting, but CPR is something one would first be exposed to, in terms of learning, in Middle school and/or High school. I'm not sure, but CPR should be something they teach early on in Med school, Not just to Nurses and Paramedic's but to those studying to be a Doctor as a well.

 

[Ingelief]

hello again, what a good comments are made..

but what is
":We've seen photos of Michael wearing those beads.." what is that?

and what does this mean??

Urine concentration does indicate he had received an amount of propofol that DEFINITLEY did not exceed 200mg AT LEAST 15 minutes prior to death ( It could have been given at any point within the last ten hours of his life but I tend to believe he induced sleep with that one in the minutes prior to death and that's probably why the prosecutor accused Murray of injecting MJ while being on the phone ). MJ must have received ANOTHER RAPID one which was fatal .

Can anybody explain the first sentence for me? did he had more or less than 200mg in his urine?

 

[mjbunny]

Not trying to single you out, but honestly, "addicted" and "dependent" is the same exact thing.

I guess it depends on what medication and why. A type 1 diabetic is insulin-dependent (without insulin they'll die) and someone with severe asthma is dependent on an inhaler, but no one is going to say they're addicts. But I suppose people toss the words around without thinking much about the meanings, yeah.

 

[Milka]

Urine concentration does indicate he had received an amount of propofol that DEFINITLEY did not exceed 200mg AT LEAST 15 minutes prior to death

...

Can anybody explain the first sentence for me? did he had more or less than 200mg in his urine?

Less or up to, but not over 200.

Oh, and ... I don't think they mean up to 200 mg in his urine, but by the concentration found in the urine they can tell how much he was given, which did not exceed 200 mg.

 

[Ingelief]

ok and murray said he gave michael what? 25?

and what is the letal dosis ?

 

[bouee]

I haven't been much on the forum lately...

Thanks everyone for your input, especially Ivy, Elusive, and Soundmind, I'm glad to see you're back !

The testimonies are really hard to read, this just horrible. I can't help thinking about the kids and what they had to go through, and seeing Katherine there just breaks my heart. It must be horrible to listen to all of this....

I have one question about what we heard today, about the approximate time of death : in what we heard today about what went on in MJ's bedroom, I don't remember reading about where exactly MJ was and when (I mean on his bed or on the floor).

From the 911 call we know that he was still on his bed at 12.21 , but did anyone say when he was taken off his bed to the floor ??
The beads that caused the perimortem abrasions were found on his bed.

Or would this info be irrelevant ?
What do you think ?

 

[Topflux]

:teary_eyed: So it's true...Prince AND Paris witnessed the chaos

Yes, that happened. I think it can't be really prevented. It would have been different if they had been younger. But I don't know was witnessing it good or bad really.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

morning everyone. pretty sleepness night after yesterday. and th think this is only the start

From the 911 call we know that he was still on his bed at 12.21 , but did anyone say when he was taken off his bed to the floor ??
The beads that caused the perimortem abrasions were found on his bed.

Or would this info be irrelevant ?
What do you think ?

yes mj was taken off the bed. the 911 despatcher told alberto to put mj on the floor which he did.so becasue the marks from the beads were caused on the bed it shows that mj was already gone by the time the 911 call was made.



the pros say mj was injected between 1040 and 1100. and the medical reports showed he died pretty quick after injection so it doesnt support the calim that murray was injecting while on the phone but supports the case that he was to busy talking to notice that mj was in trouble.to me that is the smoking gun.shows disgraceful negligence

 

[bouee]

./... supports the case that he was to busy talking to notice that mj was in trouble.to me that is the smoking gun.shows disgraceful negligence

Yes I totally agree with this. And the fact that there was no or little equipment, that apparently was not used, that Murray admittedly left the room while MJ was under propofol, and the delay in calling 911.

I don't see where Murray's defense is going with "Murray did not inject the fatal dose".
It seems to me it's irrelevant : with proper monitoring and proper equipment, self injection, or an injection by someone else would have been impossible, or at least the consequences would not have been so awful.

We'll see if the prosecution adresses the defense insinuation of self injection, but so far they haven't, in my opinion.
They base their case among other things, on the lack of proper care while adminstering propofol, they are not arguing, so far at least, about the dose that Murray gave.

Since the coroner report was released, I've had the feeling that Muuray's defense doesn't know what to do (and if I was trying to defend Murray I wouldn't know what to do either), and so they don't deal with the facts as they are, they create irrelevant stories.

 

[MJ~And~Me]

so what is going on ?

 

[bouee]

:teary_eyed: So it's true...Prince AND Paris witnessed the chaos

Prince did, yes, apparently. According to Faheem's testimony Paris was in the landing , so my understanding is that she was outside the room, I'm not sure what she actually saw.

It's a horrible situation, anyway, for both of them.
I could be wrong but my understanding is that Prince could see inside the room, so he probably saw his dad in distress, when Paris was outside, so she did see the chaos, but I'm not sure she saw what was going on inside the room. I really hope she didn't.

 

[Erikmjfan]

http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/

This is a very good blog about the case, not sure if it is a fan or someone just generally interested in trials.

 

[Vici]

Can I ask you one thing. All this talks about CPR.. would that even have helped at this time? Maybe his brain was already severed damaged so the CPR would not be helping at all.. poor

 

[The Lost Child]

Can I ask you one thing. All this talks about CPR.. would that even have helped at this time? Maybe his brain was already severed damaged so the CPR would not be helping at all.. poor

It could be, but IMO it would might have helped. In the end, Michael was rushed dead to UCLA and the doctors there "were trying to revivify him", so I think the chance was there. If Murray administrated cpr correctly and if he hasn't waited so long with calling 911 and if he has told paramedics and doctors at UCLA what he gave Michael. Not to mention, if he hadn't administrated propofol...

 

[Angela_MJJ]

Can I ask you one thing. All this talks about CPR.. would that even have helped at this time? Maybe his brain was already severed damaged so the CPR would not be helping at all.. poor

That could have been you're right.
But it does bother me that even if Murray was in the room when it happened he couldn't even have saved him because he doesn't know how to do CPR.

 

[jemini515]

Question for someone who was there firsthand: were the photos shown of the room match the one the tabloids published? Thanks.

 

[TheChosenOne]

I know people are sworn to tell the truth in court...but I knew I had heard someone else say that Frank told the kids also..so I went to my youtube favorites and I found what I thought it was and yes...Randy Phillips gave an interview...and he was asked who told the children and Randy said..Dr Murray and Frank Delio told the children...so this is true...not that you were questioning it..but ..I was..because like I said I was looking for a flaw in the testimony..but I didnt find one in that instance.

Curious to know why you would be looking a for a flaw in the testimony.

 

[The Healer]

That could have been you're right.
But it does bother me that even if Murray was in the room when it happened he couldn't even have saved him because he doesn't know how to do CPR.

Regardless of what I think about Murray, I find it hard to believe that a cardiologist ( if that"s what he is ) doesn"t know how to do CPR !?
That just does not make ANY sense.
And what about bodyguards ?! From what I know , if you are a bodyguard, then you must go trough some training about first aid, right ?
My God....we had a first- aid class at school !
I can not believe that nobody knew how to give CPR.
Something is just not right...big time.:bugeyed

 

[TarinJade]

to answer the above question about Michaels eyes and mouth being open..... He was in distress. His eyes were open and mouth because he was gasping for air that he didnt get. His eyes were im sorry to say probably open in terror because no one was there to see him in distress.

Sorry.

why was he gasping for air when he was "supposedly" hooked up to oxygen and in a "deep sleep"??? thats the part i dont understand

I don't get it either. What I said earlier was merely speculation on my part but the above suggests that Michael was conscious, which if he was sedated with Propofol, wouldn't be possible.

The reason I thought his eyes might have stayed open was because of what AnnieRUOkay said before, that the fluids dry up after the person has died.

The "Doctor" wasn't really going to eat? What would have been a point to think eating at that moment?! Those kind of moments makes you NOT want to eat anything imo. So, he must have been lying just to get out of the scene and destroy the evidence or something like that?

That's exactly what I think. I could barely swallow my dinner that night, and I wasn't even Murray. The absolute last thing on my mind would be food!

Regardless of what I think about Murray, I find it hard to believe that a cardiologist ( if that"s what he is ) doesn"t know how to do CPR !?
That just does not make ANY sense.
And what about bodyguards ?! From what I know , if you are a bodyguard, then you must go trough some training about first aid, right ?
My God....we had a first- aid class at school !
I can not believe that nobody knew how to give CPR.
Something is just not right...big time.:bugeyed

Yes, whether or not it is true that only nurses and paramedics are trained, Doctors should undoubtedly know how to perform CPR when necessary. Especially a heart doctor, for crying out loud!

Oh, and for those who are asking about the beads: They were a string of wooden prayer beads that Michael had been seen wearing around his neck in the weeks before he died. They were found on his bed.

 

[Justthefacts]

Regardless of what I think about Murray, I find it hard to believe that a cardiologist ( if that"s what he is ) doesn"t know how to do CPR !?
That just does not make ANY sense.
And what about bodyguards ?! From what I know , if you are a bodyguard, then you must go trough some training about first aid, right ?
My God....we had a first- aid class at school !
I can not believe that nobody knew how to give CPR.
Something is just not right...big time.:bugeyed

That does not explain why the doctor was performing cpr on a soft bed.

 

[Justthefacts]

Murray said Michael had a heartbeat. All this talk about cpr I am sorry you don't do cpr on a person with a heartbeat

 

[ivy]

Not trying to single you out, but honestly, "addicted" and "dependent" is the same exact thing.

I guess it depends on what medication and why. A type 1 diabetic is insulin-dependent (without insulin they'll die) and someone with severe asthma is dependent on an inhaler, but no one is going to say they're addicts. But I suppose people toss the words around without thinking much about the meanings, yeah.

mjbunny is right, people might have use those words interchangeably but actually they are two different things. insulin is the best example. a diabetic would be insulin "dependent" but not an insulin "addict".

 

[MJ~And~Me]

Murray said Michael had a heartbeat. All this talk about cpr I am sorry you don't do cpr on a person with a heartbeat

i didnt know there was one :no: i thought that that when EVENTUALLY phoned 911 i thought he told them that there was no heartbeat

That does not explain why the doctor was performing cpr on a soft bed.

exaclty you dont do CPR on a bed any doctor would know that :yes:...

 

[Soundmind]

morning everyone. pretty sleepness night after yesterday. and th think this is only the start

yes mj was taken off the bed. the 911 despatcher told alberto to put mj on the floor which he did.so becasue the marks from the beads were caused on the bed it shows that mj was already gone by the time the 911 call was made.



the pros say mj was injected between 1040 and 1100. and the medical reports showed he died pretty quick after injection

so it doesnt support the calim that murray was injecting while on the phone but supports the case that he was to busy talking to notice that mj was in trouble

.to me that is the smoking gun.shows disgraceful negligence

NO elusive, on the contrary the prosecutor brought up that point; he said Murray was injecting MJ while talking on the phone.
I'm yet to hear one report quoting the prosecutor arguing Murray left MJ for two minutes to relieve him. From what I read so far of their opening statement that "act of negligent" was not on the prosecution's list of negligent acts committed by Murray that day. They don't believe him and I have my hopes they would be able to prove Murray was there in the room when MJ STARTED to suffer, if he gave him a bolus injection, he must have seen the reaction immediately.

 

[mjjmsc]

to think that a cardiologist didn't know to perform CPR is just outrageous!

 

[mjdove]

to answer the above question about Michaels eyes and mouth being open..... He was in distress. His eyes were open and mouth because he was gasping for air that he didnt get. His eyes were im sorry to say probably open in terror because no one was there to see him in distress.

OMG ... Where am I ... HELP more DETAILS PLEASE ... And of course YOU KNOW ... Terrible shocking MJ "Fan" boards. May be you looking to much reality shows ... unbelievable how low the mankind will go ... :bugeyed:bugeyed:bugeyed:bugeyed

 

[Soundmind]

yeah and one thing also, the bottle of urine at the scene. They detected propofol and lidocaine in it. Murray claims when he "finally was forced by MJ to administer propofol" at 10:40 or 11:40 am it would have been three days since he last gave MJ propofol. So are we to believe he had that bottle there for THREE DAYS. Serioulsy?

This is for those who believe that MJ was feeling good on 23 and 24 because Murray did not administer propofol , only lorazepam and versed.

If he recieved propofol only, he would not have been a mess after 1 hour. But if he recieved vesred or lorazepam he would have been a mess for the WHOLE DAY.

That's why I want to know did he give him lorazepam and versed on 23 and 24 as he claimed or not ?

 

[StaceyMJ]

OMG ... Where am I ... HELP more DETAILS PLEASE ... And of course YOU KNOW ... Terrible shocking MJ "Fan" boards. May be you looking to much reality shows ... unbelievable how low the mankind will go ... :bugeyed:bugeyed:bugeyed:bugeyed

Agreed. Come on, that post was low and unnecessary! It's unlikely that is the real scenario imo. CPR efforts would explain his mouth being open. As for his eyes, terror, no. Come on, think about what we're posting here!

 

[MJMarty]

Absolute BULLSEYE. This blog: http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/ has a blow-by-blow account of yesterday's proceedings. This is really specific and actually helped me remember more from yesterday.

I do hope this blogger is at the courthouse again today...

P.S. Just saw it previously posted, sorry.

 

[Autumn II]

Later it seems both the prosecutors and the defence agree it was a mistake and propofol started at 11:40 am.

Right. And THAT is a very odd time to be seeking sleep, in and of itself. There have been some accounts saying that Michael had some sort of appointment at noon. Wonder if that will be verified? <o></o>
<o></o>

Murray was on the phone nonstop for 47 minutes, starting at 11:18? Till 12:03. There was not even one minute in that timeline where Murray was not on the phone, very incriminating. He used a syringe , withdrawed propofol and then rapidly injected MJ with it. For the abrasions to to be perimortem he must have removed him while he was dying and we know that the survival time was only one minute.

I think that is a key piece of knowledge, and I hope the beads will be addressed in court! Murray has given varying accounts of what happened, and I thought it important that the "I was in the bathroom" story seems to have gone away, now. <o></o>
<o></o>

Once they eliminate MJ as a potential &#8220;suspect&#8221; of that last fatal dose, there is no doubt Murray was THERE INFRONT OF MJ when he started to suffer and died.

EXACTLY! And THAT is why the beads are so important. It's looking like Murray's defense was shaping up to be "Michael killed himself," whether accidentally or intentionally. The fact that Michael was moved as he died places Murray RIGHT THERE. I don't think it would be possible to explain that one away. Murray didn't say, "I put him on the floor immediately to do CPR," because we KNOW he didn't. We know that from various sources, including the 911 tape. If the beads were under Michael when he was conscious, he would have felt them and MOVED, or moved the beads. If he was struggling as he died, the beads might have gotten under him that way. That seems more likely, especially given the state in which he was found (eyes and mouth open).

you can't but wonder what IF he carried him immediatly to UCLA which was 3 mintues away from his house? That's why the prosecutor made a big deal of Murray delaying the 911 call.

Agree, again. There is only a very small window if a person is in cardiac arrest. The outside limit to save someone is about four minutes. The lack of a defibrillator made it necessary to transport Michael to a HOSPITAL immediately. He might have been saved if: 1. CPR had been done correctly; 2. If rescue drugs had been given immediately; and 3. If he'd been transported to the UCLA hospital immediately, with continuous CPR. I think we can rule out the "I was in the bathroom" story by now (Murray's initial excuse).

Given the testimony to-date, I see some basic possibilities. One is that Murray was the most incompetent clown of a doctor ever to walk the face of the earth, or he killed Michael intentionally -- either in a fit of rage (we know from the spousal abuse charges of the past that he had anger management problems, and we know he had poor impulse-control, i.e. the numerous babies and baby-mamas he could not support) OR it was cold-blooded murder.

A horrific story is emerging, that Murray was PRESENT when Michael suffered and died!? And either he screwed up incredibly, or he intended for Michael to DIE! The rest of that time was spent, probably, in a panic at the enormity of what had happened. He knew perfectly well Michael was gone at the time the paramedics arrived.