Prelim Hearing-4/1/11 Discussion Thread-All discussion here

[ivy]

Right. And THAT is a very odd time to be seeking sleep, in and of itself. There have been some accounts saying that Michael had some sort of appointment at noon. Wonder if that will be verified?

it's an interesting time to seek sleep for sure. but I don't think MJ had any appointments because we learned by yesterdays testimony that both Michael Amir Williams and Faheem Muhammed wasn't at the house by the time Murray called them (12:12 - 12:17). Wouldn't they be at home and ready with the car if MJ was supposed to go someplace soon? and probably his assistant Amir Williams would have known his schedule.

 

[Soundmind]

If he was struggling as he died, the beads might have gotten under him that way. That seems more likely, especially given the state in which he was found (eyes and mouth open).

struggling as moving? impossible .Not under propofol's influence.

it's an interesting time to seek sleep for sure. but I don't think MJ had any appointments because we learned by yesterdays testimony that both Michael Amir Williams and Faheem Muhammed wasn't at the house by the time Murray called them (12:12 - 12:17). Wouldn't they be at home and ready with the car if MJ was supposed to go someplace soon? and probably his assistant Amir Williams would have known his schedule.

He was not supposed to go anywhere until 2 or 4 pm that day. But Travis Payne had an appoitment at noon with MJ and was heading to his house.

 

[PrincessMichaela]

Thank you, Bullseye, for that blog! I've had a couple people (non-fans) interested in the proceedings and I'm awful at (concise) recaps, haha. That's a big help! =)

 

[chanel05]

If he was already gone, depending on how long, his eye's would remain the same as if someone had opened them. If I'm not mistaken, eye fluid dries up sometime after the body shuts down. CPR would be the most plausible reason to why his mouth may have been open.



I don't know about that, interesting, but CPR is something one would first be exposed to, in terms of learning, in Middle school and/or High school. I'm not sure, but CPR should be something they teach early on in Med school, Not just to Nurses and Paramedic's but to those studying to be a Doctor as a well.

okay thanks...
but my problem is this.... if he was sedated when he died, his eyes should have been shut, when you die your eyes dont open for any reason. also when people die with their eyes open, whoever around usually closes them. im just trying to figure out why would his eyes be open IF he was suppose to be sedated. also his pupils werent checked until the perimedics came in and thats after all of this..... this is getting scary

Yes I totally agree with this. And the fact that there was no or little equipment, that apparently was not used, that Murray admittedly left the room while MJ was under propofol, and the delay in calling 911.

I don't see where Murray's defense is going with "Murray did not inject the fatal dose".
It seems to me it's irrelevant : with proper monitoring and proper equipment, self injection, or an injection by someone else would have been impossible, or at least the consequences would not have been so awful.

We'll see if the prosecution adresses the defense insinuation of self injection, but so far they haven't, in my opinion.
They base their case among other things, on the lack of proper care while adminstering propofol, they are not arguing, so far at least, about the dose that Murray gave.

Since the coroner report was released, I've had the feeling that Muuray's defense doesn't know what to do (and if I was trying to defend Murray I wouldn't know what to do either), and so they don't deal with the facts as they are, they create irrelevant stories.

they arent creating irrelevant stories, they are just trying to create reasonable doubt.

Can I ask you one thing. All this talks about CPR.. would that even have helped at this time? Maybe his brain was already severed damaged so the CPR would not be helping at all.. poor

i dnt think cpr would have helped much. i think he would have needed the equipment that they have in the hospital and someone probably would have had to put a tube down his throat so he could breath

It could be, but IMO it would might have helped. In the end, Michael was rushed dead to UCLA and the doctors there "were trying to revivify him", so I think the chance was there. If Murray administrated cpr correctly and if he hasn't waited so long with calling 911 and if he has told paramedics and doctors at UCLA what he gave Michael. Not to mention, if he hadn't administrated propofol...

the reason the doctors were trying to revive him because that was standard care(from their words). i think he would have called 911 much sooner there could have been a chance but he waited too long

 

[PrincessMichaela]

We've seen photos of Michael wearing those beads, and now they are important in finding the truth. Very, very sad. . . .

Those were prayer beads. I don't think it's a coincidence. I think...I hope...that they'll be able to tell a side or part of the story that Michael is unable to.

That was one of the hardest things for me to read in the autopsy. Reading about the graphic stuff involving the body I was almost able to desensitize myself - I could have been reading about anyone - but every now and then they'd bring up something and that would make it personal - like the mention of orange juice bottles by the bed - and I'd fall to bits all over again.

Anyway, I hope they were able to gather more from that than we were and I hope they found some answers to some of our questions. We will see.

 

[Ingelief]

i thought travis told in a interview that he was going to mj house for his appointment to practice the dance round noon.. good point.

good day everyone what a wonderfull comments are made, such clever thinking and clever people here.

Questionw what is this beats? i dont know the word?

For me its horrifying to read about the small window of serviving and that murray did not use that window of time correctly, i know back then we know it was delayed but know more the story comes out how more horrifying it gets it seems

i mean open eyes, those broses and murray giving propably the lethal dosis at once, and michael being in distress prop immediatly i didt know that, that means what?

he was in disstress for more than an hour before murray called security????? i mean if he gave it michael 10.40.

So sad... i mean immagine him feeling being in distress i hope he didnt suffer but it seems he might did right?


Hope today is good day for the prosecutions.

Nice for everyone here to post good things en clever thx, thank you so much for that!!

love to you

 

[Ingelief]

question can anybody pm me the photo of the room?

 

[Autumn II]

it's an interesting time to seek sleep for sure. but I don't think MJ had any appointments because we learned by yesterdays testimony that both Michael Amir Williams and Faheem Muhammed wasn't at the house by the time Murray called them (12:12 - 12:17). Wouldn't they be at home and ready with the car if MJ was supposed to go someplace soon? and probably his assistant Amir Williams would have known his schedule.

I'd have to look that up, out of a mass of material. I do recall it was someone coming to his HOUSE, though, and not that he was going out. But seriously, there has been so MUCH in the past 18 months, including tv interviews, TMZ (always questionable), public statements, and so on. So I'd have to see if I could find that.

We do know that his rehearsals were at night, though, and sometimes late nights. We'll have to see what the next two weeks bring, in terms of witnesses, and the patterns their testimonies form. . . . . .

(edit) I now see that it was TRAVIS, so we'll have to see if he will be called. That sounds about right. (Thanks, Ingelief.)

Ingelief, do you mean "BEADS?" Those were a strand of fairly large wooden beads (a necklace) that Michael was often seen wearing. They featured in the autopsy, and also in the room photos. Somehow, the beads got UNDER him at right around the time of his death, and scraped his skin. This shows that he was moving, or was moved, at around the time he died.

 

[MJ~And~Me]

i thought travis told in a interview that he was going to mj house for his appointment to practice the dance round noon.. good point.

good day everyone what a wonderfull comments are made, such clever thinking and clever people here.

Questionw what is this beats? i dont know the word?

For me its horrifying to read about the small window of serviving and that murray did not use that window of time correctly, i know back then we know it was delayed but know more the story comes out how more horrifying it gets it seems

i mean open eyes, those broses and murray giving propably the lethal dosis at once, and michael being in distress prop immediatly i didt know that, that means what?

he was in disstress for more than an hour before murray called security????? i mean if he gave it michael 10.40.

So sad... i mean immagine him feeling being in distress i hope he didnt suffer but it seems he might did right?


Hope today is good day for the prosecutions.

Nice for everyone here to post good things en clever thx, thank you so much for that!!

love to you

the beads were a bracelet i think

 

[Ingelief]

a bracelet for teeth? of for what? *sorry im really not knowing*

 

[MJ~And~Me]

a bracelet for teeth? of for what? *sorry im really not knowing*

No it was a bracelet for his hand

 

[chanel05]

Regardless of what I think about Murray, I find it hard to believe that a cardiologist ( if that"s what he is ) doesn"t know how to do CPR !?
That just does not make ANY sense.
And what about bodyguards ?! From what I know , if you are a bodyguard, then you must go trough some training about first aid, right ?
My God....we had a first- aid class at school !
I can not believe that nobody knew how to give CPR.
Something is just not right...big time.:bugeyed

i thought one of the body guards or the assistant said they helped with cpr

I don't get it either. What I said earlier was merely speculation on my part but the above suggests that Michael was conscious, which if he was sedated with Propofol, wouldn't be possible.

The reason I thought his eyes might have stayed open was because of what AnnieRUOkay said before, that the fluids dry up after the person has died.

i think me and you are on the same page. i dnt think he was dead that long for anything to dry up to the point where his eyes wont close. i just wanna know if he was awake when he died????? thats the scary part. i think with the testimony today, and the doctors from ucla and the perimedics testimony will shine more light on what happened.

Murray said Michael had a heartbeat. All this talk about cpr I am sorry you don't do cpr on a person with a heartbeat

yes cpr is performed on people with a heartbeat. if they dont have a heartbeat then you use a defiberlator(sp) because then cpr would be useless. thats probably what muarry needed and not cpr. remember he was in cardiac arrest so his heart wasnt beating and cpr was really no good for him. he needed some rescue machinery

 

[elusive moonwalker]

We'll see if the prosecution adresses the defense insinuation of self injection, but so far they haven't, in my opinion.
They base their case among other things, on the lack of proper care while adminstering propofol, they are not arguing, so far at least, about the dose that Murray gave.

i doubt they will in the prelim. as they dont need to. they only show a very small amount of their case. just the basics to show that it should go to trial

 

[Autumn II]

a bracelet for teeth? of for what? *sorry im really not knowing*

EEEEK! It was not a bracelet (although he did wear some fiber bracelets) This was a NECKLACE, worn around the neck. I've heard that it was Tibetan prayer-beads? The beads (individual pieces of the necklace) were of unpainted wood, and were a bit rough looking. They are visible in many photographs of Michael in his last weeks.

The POINT is, that they somehow got UNDER Michael's body just at the moment he died. They are also visible on the bed in the photos. The abrasions (scrapes) they caused are mentioned in the autopsy report.

Why this is relevant in terms of yesterday's testimony is that body-guards have stated they thought Michael already looked dead when they were called to the room. So this would help in verifying that Murray was WITH Michael at the moment he died, which was awhile before he alerted anyone. I'm hoping they will have medical experts testify about the forensics.

 

[Ingelief]

im sorry to mantion this but you can only use shocks if the hard is fibrilating, if its flatlined it cant be shocked.. why because a shock layes the hard still if it is still a shock is poitnless.. most heartattacks the patiens is not flatlined yet but in fibrilations and then you gave shocks

did murray had an AED?

why are the breads so importent if its a bracelet for the hand?

I hope the doctors and paremedics testify soon.. that will clear up a lot i hope

 

[Asedora]

Given the testimony to-date, I see some basic possibilities. One is that Murray was the most incompetent clown of a doctor ever to walk the face of the earth, or he killed Michael intentionally -- either in a fit of rage (we know from the spousal abuse charges of the past that he had anger management problems, and we know he had poor impulse-control, i.e. the numerous babies and baby-mamas he could not support) OR it was cold-blooded murder.

Bolded part. Yes, there are only TWO options: Murray is the worst doctor on this planet OR he killed him intentionally.
The first one deos not sound realistic to me.

The second option sounds more real, but Murray alone would not have a motive to kill Michael making 100000 $ a month according to his contract.

 

[Autumn II]

im sorry to mantion this but you can only use shocks if the hard is fibrilating, if its flatlined it cant be shocked.. why because a shock layes the hard still if it is still a shock is poitnless.. most heartattacks the patiens is not flatlined yet but in fibrilations and then you gave shocks

did murray had an AED?

why are the breads so importent if its a bracelet for the hand?

I hope the doctors and paremedics testify soon.. that will clear up a lot i hope

I hope my post (above) explained. It was NOT a bracelet (for the hand), but a necklace. Which means the strand was longer. There are many photos of Michael wearing this necklace.

Murry apparently didn't have any rescue equipment at all, except for some medications, and oxygen.

 

[ivy]

These are the beads that is being mentioned. You can see Michael wearing them on his neck.

They were found on his bed and has left marks on his back. Those marks can be helpful in determining when/where MJ died and when he was moved etc. (someone with medical knowledge please explain it better than I did - thank you).

 

[Ingelief]

not any equipment thats so horrible wrong..

you have to have some sort of defib. or intubation kit if you are 1 a doctor and 2 give propofol..

 

[elusive moonwalker]

According to Dr. Murray between 1 and 10 am in the morning he slowly infused Michale with Propofol.

above is from the blog in the updates thread. so this is where the police are getting that info from. murray told them it? then again the media are mixing up loads of reports so who knows whats true

hy are the breads so importent if its a bracelet for the hand?

forsome reason the beads were underneath mj, he was laying on them. the beads left marks. these marks show that mj died while he was on the bed, the beads are importnat because it gives the prosecution an ide of when at the latest mj died. he died b4 he was put on the floor which is when the 911 call was made

did murray had an AED?

he had no monitoring equipment at all. nothing to help if anything went wrong

 

[Ingelief]

sort of juwelry?

a neckles? and because he had them on his back means?

 

[Ingelief]

ok thank you

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Later it seems both the prosecutors and the defence agree it was a mistake and propofol started at 11:40 am

the reports i read said the pros said diprivan was given between 10.40 and 11.00 so it seems the pros are going with murrays first timeline. this is so annoying whythe hell the media cant get the facts right

NO elusive, on the contrary the prosecutor brought up that point; he said Murray was injecting MJ while talking on the phone.

did the pros actually say that in the opening statements. cause i havnt read it in any reports.

re travis he said in an interview he was on his way to mjs house when he got a call saying the ambulance was there. he said he was going to meet mj there have lunch with him and then go to rehearsals together for about 2pm

 

[Ingelief]

when i read this artical i was wondering why alvarez helped murray

here the text:"

"Dr. Murray is having Alveraz help him collect various bottles of medicine, medical paraphernalia medical bottles, wrappings, and dropping them in (his medical?) bag. Dr. Murray tells Alvarez to grab the bag on the IV that was hanging. Alberto Alvarez grabs that bag and places it in with the other items.. It’s only then he is told to call 911. The 911 was placed at 12 21 pm

Why didnt he do something else like immidatly call 911?
is alvaraz then also a person who handled wrong?


the link was giving in a earlyer post here
http://sprocket-trials.blogspot.com/

 

[MJFan07]

it's an interesting time to seek sleep for sure. but I don't think MJ had any appointments because we learned by yesterdays testimony that both Michael Amir Williams and Faheem Muhammed wasn't at the house by the time Murray called them (12:12 - 12:17). Wouldn't they be at home and ready with the car if MJ was supposed to go someplace soon? and probably his assistant Amir Williams would have known his schedule.

I remember Kai Chase saying he came down for lunch with his kids everyday at noon. And that actually Murray typically came down around 10:00 a.m. or so to get Jackson's breakfast, which he didn't do this morning.

 

[PrincessMichaela]

sort of juwelry?

a neckles? and because he had them on his back means?

You know how you can wake up with pillow marks on your face if you sleep on it a certain way? Or if you have a tight rubber band for your hair around your wrist it can leave a mark? Well, he was sleeping on top of his necklace, so it left some marks on his back.

They're called "perimortem abrasions" - marks formed AT the time of death. This is important because it may be able to give us info on where he was when he died, if he was moved afterwards, his state of mind, etc. And then again, they could mean nothing, but it's possible they may hold some answers we won't find anywhere else.

(There's a scientific answer to explain "Perimortem abrasions", but it's not really important to us, Unless you want to know, then I'll try to explain it.)

I hope that made sense? =/

------------------------

Also, I found some more info and quotes regarding Faheem's testimony yesterday and the CPR issue.

“He asked if anyone in the room knew CPR,” Muhammad told Deputy D.A. David Walgren during Day One of the evidentiary hearing that will decide whether Murray should stand trial for involuntary manslaughter.

Murray’s question provoked a mild gasp in Judge Michael Pastor’s packed courtroom during the hearing’s afternoon session.

The cardiologist’s lawyer, Ed Chernoff, later attempted some damage control by getting Muhammad, a young man dressed completely in black, to admit there may have been extenuating circumstances behind Murray’s query.

“The way he asked it,” countered Muhammad, “made it seem like he didn’t know CPR.”

This is the clarification a few of us were looking for yesterday...

(This was the article http://www.thewrap.com/media/articl...-under-conrad-murrays-care-says-witness-23633)

 

[bouee]

they arent creating irrelevant stories, they are just trying to create reasonable doubt.

Could you please explain ?? I don't really understand. Reasonable doubt about what ?

Do you mean that if they can't prove Murray did that fatal injection , then they can't prove Murray killed MJ, the he can't be proven guilty of homicide ???

You see that's the point I don't understand, I'll try to explain it simply (not easy, especially for me !)

Based on the coroner's report : cause of death : acute propofol intoxication + benzodiazepine effects.
The coroner says it's a homicide, based on 2 things : the circumstances do not support self administration , the standard of care for administering propofol was not met (lack of monitoring and ressucitation equipment).

In the anaethsiologist report, she datailed what I wrote above. When she spoke about the amount found in MJ's body, after his death, she said it was similar to the amount you would find in someone undergoing abdominal surgery. She did NOT speak of a LETHAL amount, if I remember correctly. I don't think I ever read anything in the official docs about a LETHAL dose.

Now I understand from other posters that it's difficult to go back to the dose that was actually given.

So, what if there was NO lethal dose ???

In other words, and this is absolutely horrible, and this is how I understood it at the time the coroner report came out, what if MJ had died of common side effects of propofol, made worse by the use of lozarepam (admittedly given by Murray), but that should not have had such consequences if propofol had been used correctly ?

Let's say, OK, MJ self injected. If Murray had had and used the proper equipment, he would have been warned immediately, and could have reacted quickly enough. And he would have been there, so there would have been no self injection at all. (I really don't believe that there was, anyway, this is pure theory)

Now, this is how I see it, but sometimes legal stuff and myself are not friends.

And if the prosecution can prove that Murray actually did that last injection, as Soundmind says, then that's great, that will definetely shut Murray's defense.

 

[chanel05]

im sorry to mantion this but you can only use shocks if the hard is fibrilating, if its flatlined it cant be shocked.. why because a shock layes the hard still if it is still a shock is poitnless.. most heartattacks the patiens is not flatlined yet but in fibrilations and then you gave shocks

did murray had an AED?

why are the breads so importent if its a bracelet for the hand?

I hope the doctors and paremedics testify soon.. that will clear up a lot i hope

people use defiberlators when people are in cardiac arrest all the time so that cant be true. in the US there are many stories of basketball players playing and going into cardiac arrest and the medical personalle that is there uses a defiberlator to get there heart back to where it is suppose to be again. they never use cpr

 

[chanel05]

sort of juwelry?

a neckles? and because he had them on his back means?

a necklace is worn around the neck.. he did not have them on his back, he was in the bed lying on his back and the beads were on the bed under him(between him and the bed)

 

[chanel05]

not any equipment thats so horrible wrong..

you have to have some sort of defib. or intubation kit if you are 1 a doctor and 2 give propofol..

true... i dont think cpr would have helped mj at that point. when they give propofol in the hospital, they have all of those machines there for a reason.