V.V.PUTIN: How you consider, who started the war?
Т.Roth: the attack of Georgia to Tskhinvali became the last incentive motive.
V.V.PUTIN: Thanks you for this answer. It is the truth. On this theme we will talk later in more detail. Now I only wish to note that not we have created this situation.
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Thereupon, if the European states wish to serve foreign policy interests of the USA, in my opinion, they will win nothing.
Now we take our international legal obligations. Under the international agreements, the Russian peacemakers have incurred a duty to protect the peace population of South Ossetia.
And now lets recollect 1995, Bosnia. The European peace-making contingent presented by the Dutch military men, did not execute its mandate to constrain one of the attacking parties, and allowed this party to destroy the whole settlement. Many have been killed, hundreds of people have suffered. A problem and tragedy in Srebrenitsa is well-known to Europe.
You what, wanted, that we ran away, too? That we would have left and have given the chance to the Georgian armed divisions to destroy people living in Tskhinvali?
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The Minister for Foreign Affairs of France has visited the North Ossetia and met refugees. And eyewitnesses tell that the Georgian military divisions tanks smashed women and children, exhausted people in houses and alive burnt. And the Georgian soldiers when have rushed into Tskhinvali so, by the way, passing by houses, by cellars where women and children hid, threw grenades in there. What is this, if it not a genocide?
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T.ROTH: It not your decision, and the Georgian decision. [about whether to move away Saakashvili from the power in Georgia]
V.V.PUTIN: Certainly. But we know precedents and other character. We will recollect, how the American armies have entered into Iraq and what they have done to Saddam Hussein, which destroyed some Shiit villages. And here during the first hours of Georgia's attack 10 Ossetines' villages in territory of South Ossetia were completely destroyed, wiped out.
T.ROTH: Mister the Prime minister, whether you consider yourselves as a result of it have the right to interfere on territory of the sovereign state, that is not to remain in a conflict zone, and to carry out its bombardments. I sit today near to you only thanks to accident because in 100 metres from me, in inhabited quarter Burn, the shell, a bomb dumped from your plane has blown up. Whether is it infringement of norms of international law, namely that you de facto occupy the small country. Whence at you this right?
V.V.PUTIN: Certainly, we have on this right.. [peacekeepers mandate to make sides to stop use of force, which requires destroying military infrastructure of the attacker if it does not stop]
T.ROTH: Once again I specify - the bomb has been dumped on an apartment house.
V.V.PUTIN: Certainly, we operated within the limits of international law. Attacks on our peace-making posts, murders of our peacemakers and our citizens - all it, certainly, we have apprehended as an attack to Russia.
During the first hours operations by the blows the Georgian armed forces have killed at us at once some tens peacemakers.
Have surrounded our "Southern" small town (there there were "Southern" and "Northern" small towns of peacemakers) tanks and have started to shoot it over open sights. When our soldiers-peacemakers have tried to deduce technics from garages, blow by systems "Grad" has been struck. 10 persons who have come into a hangar, have died on the spot, have burnt down alive.
I yet have not answered. Then the aircraft of Georgia has struck blows to various points in territory of South Ossetia, not in Tshinvale, and in the centre of the South Ossetia. We have been compelled to begin suppression of points of a fire control which were behind a zone of operations and behind a safety zone. But it were such points, armed forces whence coped, and whence blows were struck to the Russian armies and peacemakers.
T.ROTH: But I said that bombardments of inhabited quarters were carried out. Perhaps, you not in a course of all information?
V.V.PUTIN: I, maybe, not in a course of all information.
Here errors are possible also during operations.
Here now only in Afghanistan the American aircraft has struck blow ostensibly to Talibs and has with one blow killed almost hundred civilians. It is the first of possibilities.
But the second, it is more probable. The matter is that aircraft and radar stations the Georgian party sometimes placed fire control points, points of management in residential areas to limit possibilities of application to us of aircraft, using civilians and you as hostages. [Gori has also three military bases and a huge weapons warehouse, which, being destroyed, started shells to fire and fly on a wide range around, causing destruction and fires on the nearby civil buildings -- from which Georgia's authorities evacuated people beforehand.]
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T.ROTH: Other Minister for Foreign Affairs, this time of Great Britain, Mr. Millibend recently has stated some fears that "cold war" begins anew, new race of arms begins. As though you have estimated this situation? Whether there are we now on a threshold of the new "glacial age", new "cold war", the beginning of new arm race? Which it is, from your point of view?
V.V.PUTIN: you know, there is such joke: "Who the first shouts: hold the thief? - The one who has stolen".
T.ROTH: the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Great Britain.
V.V.PUTIN: It is you who said that. Remarkably. As it is pleasant to me to talk to you. But it you have told.
But if to speak seriously Russia does not aspire neither to any aggravations, nor to any pressure with somebody. We want kind, good-neighbourhood, partner relations with all.
If you allow, I will tell that I think about it. There was Soviet Union and the Warsaw contract. And the Soviet armies in Germany, as a matter of fact, it were necessary to tell fairly, it were occupational armies which remained in Germany after the Second World War, but under the pretext of allied armies. These occupational forces have left. Soviet Union has broken up, the Warsaw Pact does not exist any more. Threats from outside Soviet Union are not present. And the NATO, the American armies in Europe remained. What for? To put things in order in own camp, with own allies, to keep them in the frameworks of discipline -- external threat is necessary. Iran is not so good for this role. Very much it would be desirable to revive an image of the enemy in the form of Russia. But no one fears in Europe actually. [So new war was needed to twist it and create the ultimate evil Russia false reality to brainwash people.]
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T.ROTH: Thus, you are saying that the European Union plays by various rules in various regions of the world which do not correspond to international law.
V.V.PUTIN: Exacty! Was Kosovo recognised? They "forgot" about territorial integrity of the state. "Forgot" about [UNO] resolution 1244 which they accepted and supported. There in Kosovo it was possible to make, and in Abkhazia and in South Ossetia it is impossible! Why?
T.ROTH: That is Russia -- the unique arbitrator of international law. All the others manipulate. They do not realise it. They have other interests or thay do not care. Did I understand you right?
V.V.PUTIN: you have misunderstood me. You have agreed with independence of Kosovo? Yes or not?
T.ROTH: I personally... I am journalist.
V.V.PUTIN: No, the western countries.
T.ROTH: Yes.
V.V.PUTIN: basically all recognised. But if recognised there, recognise then independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
No difference. No difference in these positions is present. It is the thought up difference. There was an ethnic conflict - here again the ethnic conflict. There were crimes practically from two parties - here again, probably, they can be found. If it is possible to rummage, then, probably, it could be found. Probably. There the decision was accepted that these people cannot live together in one state - here again they do not wish to live together in one state.
Yes, no difference is present, and all perfectly understand it. All is chatter. To cover not legal decisions. "The right of force", that is how it is called. The fist right. And here Russia cannot agree with it.
Mister Roth, you live in Russia already long. You perfectly speak in Russian, almost without accent. That you have understood me, not surprisingly. To me it is very pleasant. But I very much would like, that our, my European colleagues who will gather on 1st September have understood me also and to think over this conflict.
The resolution 1244 has been accepted? Was. There it is written down and underlined: territorial integrity of Serbia. They have thrown out this Resolution to a dustbin, have forgotten about it. [Before,] Tried to twisted. It it was impossible to twist it in any way. So decided to forgot it at all.
Why? White House ordered, and everyone executed as they were said. If the European countries will continue such international policy further, then we will have to talk about the European affairs with Washington.
T.ROTH: I Understand that you have told. It is possible to continue without the translator?
V.V.PUTIN: It is possible.
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T.ROTH: In the conditions of that crisis in relations which, undoubtedly, now are available (relations from the USA, with Europe), what contribution you can bring in business of that this crisis has come to naught?
V.V.PUTIN: First, I spoke yesterday about it to your colleagues from CNN. It seems to me that substantially crisis has been provoked, including our American friends during pre-election struggle. It is, of course, use of an administrative resource in its most pitiable way to provide advantage of one of candidates, in this case, of the ruling party.
T.ROTH: you have facts?
V.V.PUTIN: we have a situation analysis. We know that there were many American advisers [in Georgia]. It is very bad to arm one of the parties of the ethnic conflict and then to push it on the decision of these ethnic problems with the force way. It much, apparently, easier, at first sight, than to carry on long-term negotiations and to search for compromises, but it is very dangerous way.
Succession of events has shown it. But instructors, "teachers", in a broad sense - the personnel, training to work on the put military technology - where it should be - on ranges and in the educational centres, and they where were?
In a zone of operations. It already pushes on thought that the management of the USA knew about the preparing action and, moreover, most likely, took part, because without a top management command the American citizens had not the right to be in a zone of the conflict.
In a safety zone there could be only local citizens, there could be observers of OSCE and peacekeeping forces. And we there have found out traces of citizens of the USA which did not enter neither into the first, nor in the second, in the third category.
It already a question. Why the top management of the USA has resolved presence there the citizens who had not the right to be in this safety zone? And if they have resolved it then I have a suspicion that it has been made to organise small victorious war specially. And if [the war] would not turn out well -- then to create an image of the evil Russia, and already on this soil unite electorate around one of candidates in presidents. Certainly, the candidate from party in power because such resource the party in power can possess only.
Here are my reasonings and assumptions. This is your business - to agree with it or not. But they have the right to existence as we have found out traces of the American citizens in a zone of operations.
T.ROTH: And last question which I wished to set to you, it is very much interest for me. Whether you consider what you personally are in a trap of the authoritative state? In the system created nowadays you receive the information from your special services, you receive the information from various sources, including from the higher economic environment. But even mass media at times are afraid to tell something other that contradicts that you wish to hear.
Whether it has turned out so, what the system created by you, itself closes now to you a wide sight, possibility really to see those processes which now occur in Europe, in other countries?
V.V.PUTIN: Mr.Roth, you have characterised our political system as authoritative system.
You have mentioned during our today's discussion several times the term "general values". Where is the set of these values?
There are basic principles. Well, say, human rights for the life. In the USA, there is a death penalty, and in Russia it is not present, and in Europe, too. Whether it means, what you are going to leave, say, the NATO block because there is no full coincidence of values of Europeans and Americans?
Now lets take this conflict which we now discuss with you. Do you know, what occurred in Georgia last years? Mysterious death of the prime minister Zhvanija. Punishment of opposition. Physical dispersal of meetings of the protest of opposition forces. Carrying out of national elections actually in the conditions of state of emergency.
Then this criminal act in Ossetia with many human victims. [Also, closure of all Russian speaking channels as well Internet domain ".ru" zone; there is no also opposition-TV in Georgia] And this is, of course, democratic country with which it is necessary to carry on dialogue and which needs to be accepted in the NATO, and can be and in the European Union.
And if other country protects the interests, simply the right of the citizens to life, citizens on whom the attack is carried out - 80 persons have killed at once. 2000 peace citizens there as a result are killed. And we what, cannot protect a life of the citizens there? And if we protect the lives, then we will be left without a sausage supply? [meaning discussed economic sanctions] The choice they give to us -- between a sausage and a life? We choose a life, Mr.Roth.
Now concerning other value - freedom of the press.
Look at these events in a press of the United States, which is considered torch of the democracies, how they shined. And in Europe, too.
I was in Beijing when these events have begun. Mass bombardment of Tskhinvali has begun, already land operations of the Georgian armies have begun, already were numerous victims, -- no word about it was in the media. Your company [ARD] was silent, and all American companies were silent, as though nothing occurs -- silence.
As soon as the aggressor was stopped and started to run away, leaving behind all the American weapons, - at once all have recollected both about international law, and about spiteful Russia. At once all have begun to wail.
Now concerning sausage, economy. We want normal economic relations with all our partners. We are very reliable partner. We never brought nobody. When we built pipeline system in Federal Republic of Germany in the early sixties, there our partners in the USA advised to Germans to disagree with this project, too. You should know about it. But then the management of Germany has made the correct decision, and together with Soviet Union this system has been constructed. Today it is one of reliable sources of maintenance with hydrocarbons of German economy. 40 billion cubic metre Germany receives annually. Last year and in this also will receive.
Now let's look more globally. What structure of our export to the European countries, and to the North America? On 80 with superfluous percent are the goods of raw group: oil, gas, petrochemistry, the wood, different metals, chemical fertilizers. It is everything what the world and European economy extremely requires. These are very demanded goods in the world markets.
We have possibilities and in hi-tech areas, but they while are very limited. And, moreover, even having arrangements with the European Union, say, in the field of deliveries of nuclear fuel, us wrongfully do not start up on the European market. By the way, because of a position of our French friends. But they know about it, we with them long discussed.
But if someone wishes to break these communications, we cannot do anything with it. We do not want it. We very much hope that our partners will as execute the obligations as we executed and intend to execute the obligations in the future. It that, as to our export.
And as to your export, that is for us import, to Russia very reliable and a large market. I now do not remember figure, but deliveries, say, a German machine engineering industry on the Russian market grow from year to year. They simply very big today. Someone wishes to cease to deliver to us? We will buy in other places.
To whom is it necessary, I do not understand? We call for the objective analysis of a current situation. We hope that the common sense and justice will triumph. We are victim of aggression. We hope for support of our European partners.
T.ROTH: Warm thanks for this interview, Mr. the Prime minister.
V.V.PUTIN: Big thanks.
