Po#104: Georgia's army filmed shelling Tskhinvali from tanks/Grad;Po#83/75/62: Kosovo/MacCain/Lesson

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

arXter:

1) the problem of South-Ossetia raised even before Russia appeared as independent state, back in late 1980s;

2) if Russia would seriously, big way help South-Ossetia, then it long time would have military air planes, for example. Not so much help with that;

3) and, Russia could agree to include South-Ossetia as its territory starting from 1992 any day;

4) boycotts and et cetera on Georgia were not out of the blue but each time reaction to Georgia's actions.

5) initially Russia did not want anything from Saakashvili, aside of it keeping peace agreement as accorded before (contrary to goals that Saakashvili announced when coming to power, which needed peacekeepers being taken away and/or discredited). Lately, with Georgia aspiring to become NATO member, Russia started to want this would not happen for obvious reasons. However, this has nothing to do with current war since it was not Russian foreign minister who gave consultations to Mr.Saakashvili days before he ordered troops move to South-Ossetia, it was Ms.Rice. So how exactly we should put Russia in this concrete mess?

With this, Russia trying to stop the violence, where exactly can we blame the country, indeed? What should Russia do else in the story with Georgia, concretely?

Russia has consistently pursued imperial aims in its near abroad

With that rhetoric everything that was "reported" about Russia was brainwashing during latest years. Of course, every country wants to be as successful as possible.

However, at no case during recent years Russia done anything "imperialistic". I tracked all those suspicious cases all and even dissected number of them here in General Discussion, showing articles, for example, describing situation with gas supply to Ukraine. Whole articles consisted of direct lies and/or untold truths.

At the same time, as I said above, no side at war can come out of it "in white", and I do not trust Russian media, as well as any else. And, of course, I said here many times earlier that there is wide area of critique of Kremlin, but in areas that are not interesting for use in international politics so western media do not write about it. Instead, they write about things are outright brainwashing. Either if we take this case with war in Georgia, or other "imperialistic" moves.

For starters, during last fifteen years Russia never broke a UNO resolution/international law/signed contract of supply, no matter how good it could seem to do so. I will not disclose details since there are so many cases that this may concern to. So ask details for anything, if you want.

But keeping Russia as "eternal evil" has many advantages in policy, so there almost no thing that western people could read about the country went without turning upside-down.

Thankfully, no country aside of western world sees Russia as "evil" since people are not get brainwashed there for years. And, on the contrary, most American people are still sure that Mr.Clinton's administration did nothing illegitimate internationally, while it broke as many international laws as Mr.Bush's one. People just do not know.

The same as most people in Russia do not know about internal policy things that are crimes of Kremlin regime. But those crimes relate to internal doings/undoings, not international "imperialistic" things.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

The envoys hope to broker a truce after three days of fighting which are said to have killed or injured hundreds, and sent thousands fleeing.



Russian jets have bombed several towns, including Gori in central Georgia.

Again, BBC places Russia's jets right after telling about hundreds killed and thousands fled -- to ensure readers would think it is Russia's doing. Also, they here report that the bombings were for the sake of bombings, out of the blue, and not on military bases. Later, they disclose some details that oppose the initial wording, but most public gets only key headlines, so the brainwashing goal is achieved.



-------------------------------------------


Ambassadors from USA, EU, OSCE will try to make truce happen. However, Russia's president said that truce may happen only when Georgia's military forces will be taken back to limit agreed in 1992 peace agreement, and when the fire will be stopped.


Nothing of this happened yet, so the sad war continues. Ms.Rice said she wants Russia to take back its troops from Georgia -- what would be break of peace agreement, as well as UNO mandate profanation.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

Living deads from pictures that Georgia feeds Reuters with:
Photo removed - not appropriate for site.

the dead in the arms of mourning relative:
Photo removed - not appropriate for site.


the same dead gets upside down:
Photo removed - not appropriate for site.


the same mourning relative but in different posture and change of clothes:
Photo removed - not appropriate for site.


the same dead is carried and changed hands in different place and by different people and as if it is (still was) alive, BBC:
Photo removed - not appropriate for site.

Either there is no respect for dead in the Georgian military, or the dead is not quite dead. And relative to that dead is not quite relative. The story of "juicy" pictures in contemporary information wars and "journalism" takes at least fifteen years, so nothing new here.

However, this is not to say that there were no actual Georgian victims. For example, there in Goti are three military bases and a big weapon warehouse and one of the civil buildings was built near to that and indeed was damaged. Civilian people could die there. Again: no side comes out "in white" after conflict.

 

[arXter]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

Denis, with you ever expanding replies..

i don't know how you can say Russia is purely out there to bring peace when even you proclaimed it sought out to "severely punish" such breaches (to say the least) and now you can see the casualty results in front of you. i guess our definitions and/or methods of bringing peace differ by a country mile.

and Georgia had every right to seek NATO membership in order to limit Russian efforts (although NATO had every right to turn Georgia down). i maintain that Russia has been a bad actor, but it was nevertheless a terrible and unnecessary mistake to pick a fight with Russia over South Ossetia, not least because the balance of perfidy on South Ossetia is uncertain. this is why i'm unsympathetic to Saakashvili and to his claims that Georgia is fighting for freedom against tyranny.

and as some of you already mentioned, the United States also bears some responsibility. US rhetorical and material support for Georgia may have given the Georgians unrealistic expectations about likely US behavior in a Russia-Georgia confrontation. specifically, anything other than "we will not support you in any way or under any circumstances" might have led to the Georgians having the wrong idea.

but i am in no way "brainwashed" by Western media - most of the time i just follow al-Jazeera for lack of a better substitute (and i don't know where you got the idea that Russia is Okay'd by every other media and society barring the West ???)

- but just because there is a very biased ("brainwashing") effort in certain media, does not at all mean that Russia is without flaw here and vice versa in that if you're not 100% supporting Russia here does not mean you're brainwashed by such influences.

 

[Dangerous Incorporated]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

My thoughts and prayers are with you all in this time of need. Please take care.

PS I dont think the pics of dead people is necessary here with kids on the board

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

In command of the UN forces in Bosnia from July 1993 to January 1994, Belgian general Briquemont was well placed to declare:

"The disinformation is total (...) Television needs a scapegoat. For the moment, there is complete unanimity in condemning the Serbs, and that in no way facilitates the search for a solution. I don't think one can view the problem of ex-Yugoslavia and of Bosnia-Herzegovina only from the anti-Serb angle. It is much more complicated than that. One day in the middle of the Croat-Muslim war, we gave some information on the massacres committed by the Croatian army. An American journalist said to me: 'If you give out that sort of information, the American public won't understand anything.'"

Just an example of "information war" history from the latest fifteen years. Things went as far as posting pictures and videos of crimes that have no relation to the party blamed in the text and voice commentary. The media did it consciously, so the society would be ready to agree with illegal, breaking international laws bombings of independent country for the sake of "democracy". That is Mr.Clinton's administration doing.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

Georgia 'pulls out of S Ossetia'

Georgia withdraws its troops from the breakaway region of South Ossetia, a Georgian interior ministry official tells the BBC, as Russian jets reportedly bomb a military airfield close to the capital, Tbilisi.

Actions louder than words, lets see what happens.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

i don't know how you can say Russia is purely out there to bring peace when even you proclaimed it sought out to "severely punish" such breaches (to say the least) and now you can see the casualty results in front of you. i guess our definitions and/or methods of bringing peace differ by a country mile.

I never said that Russia is there "purely" to bring peace, so what the reason of your comments? Of course, Medvedev said he will punish the guilty. Probably, he would like to capture Saakashvili and organize international tribunal for him.

And yes, bombings of military objects in Georgia brought civil victims. However, this has nothing to do with "punishment", it is military necessity, for example, to destroy air landing lines thus Georgian military air planes stopped to fly to South-Ossetia and bomb it.

So where exactly peace operation definition here differs from whatever else definition? How else one could stop military actions rather than destroying infrastructure which is used every day to bomb other territory?

If you want actual cases where "peace" operation definition differs from any sane thing -- see Yogoslavia, where up to 500 Tomahawk rockets bombed bridges, power plants, water-cleaning equipment, roads, manufactures every day. Those were not objects of military infrastructure, those were objects of common infrastructure. The goal was to ruin the whole country in terms of whatever life organization.

If you came to this thread and in very first post called my point biased", then it is serious claim since everyone who knows me know that I am meticulous and try to be as concrete and accurate as possible. That is why I had to dissect it in details, so, sorry, I do not accept complains about my "ever expanding" replies.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

and Georgia had every right to seek NATO membership in order to limit Russian efforts (although NATO had every right to turn Georgia down).

I never said that Georgia had not right to seek participation in whatever organization, so, again, why make a point for the sake of making point? There is nothing to argue about here.

I pointed that Russia did not want Georgia seeking NATO, and that is it. Many countries want many things. But mentioned interest is the only thing that ever Russia would want of Georgia in recent years.

and i don't know where you got the idea that Russia is Okay'd by every other media and society barring the West ???

Russia is "okay" in public view in the rest of the world, which does not get brainwashed in every newsbit about the country, that is true.

but just because there is a very biased ("brainwashing") effort in certain media, does not at all mean that Russia is without flaw here and vice versa in that if you're not 100% supporting Russia here does not mean you're brainwashed by such influences.

Again, I never made points that you are trying to argue with.

However, in phrase "without flaw here" should be concrete:

1) In sense of casualties yes -- as I said, no side can come in white after conflict, the blood of civilians will be always on military, including, of course, Russian military. War crimes may even happen if the conflict will be long and bloody and there will be certain crazy blood-lust soldiers with overzealous efforts in their work.

2) in other sense, the flaw in Russia behaviour yet should be discovered; as of now, no one offered better way of country's behaviour than happened in reality in relation to Georgia.

Two small bits: there is nearly nothing "100%" can be about anything in real world, and in terms of knowing some sane information about Russia even Al-Jazeera is of no use, they focused mostly on other region.

So I bet nearly no one here knows where to go on Internet to learn some balancing/sane information about Russia, so people basically have other no way than being brainwashed. Or they should consciously get ready for twisting in media and not believe it.

I know what I am talking about since I lived even in times when USSR was alive. The difference is that most of USSR citizens understood that they are brainwashed, while most Americans sure that they have democracy and liberal media that tell them the truth. That is how second war in Iraq and, before, wars Yugoslavia became possible.

(That is why I always against blaming common people and separate governments of people.)

Anyway, lets hope the current war will end as soon as possible and the idea of capturing Saakashvili so he could be judged by international tribunal would not cause any additional massive bloodshed.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Russia's use of strategic bombers and ballistic missiles against Georgia's civilians outside of the South Ossetian conflict is "far disproportionate" to Georgia's alleged attack on Russian peacekeepers, a senior U.S. official said Saturday.

Outright lies accepted as truth to make point -- classic move. There is and there was no sense to use any weapons against "civilians" from very beginning. If Russia would want to go "disproportional", then it would turn like with NATO bombings of Yogoslavia, with thousands of missiles destroying the whole country and like 7000 casualties. Thus the claim in the quote is so transparent.

The official said Russia is probably trying to destabilize Georgia politically to kill its chances of joining NATO.

More brainwashing; no sane NATO members would agree to accept Georgia since their do not usually want to have dangerous countries among them. And, how exactly supposed attack on civilians should destabilize Georgia politically? Everyone knows that if you attack civilians people get around current government more than ever.


Lame propaganda.

The official said European allies have told the United States that Russia has "crossed a line of unacceptable behavior" and should "expect international condemnation."

Again, no facts of that, so they only have this brainwashing.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

Possible consequence of bombing of weapons store in Gori by Russian airforces.

Most probably with some weaponry detonating this near-situated building got damaged.

Obviously there was no bomb hit since in all photos the roof of the building is complete (I published panoramic photos of the building with fire), and even in the only place of active fire it is seen that windows' frames are in the place, not destroyed.

Bombs do not hit buildings from sides and do not do it with frames being untouched. The building was caught in fire.

However, those specifics do not hamper with media advertisement of those photos as "bomb hit" at civilian target, because they hope for public ignorance.

Again, this not to say that there were not civilian victims. Only about propaganda techniques, where media should lie about nearly every thing -- small or big.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

History backwards: Russia hopelessly tried to raise attention of "international community" to Georgia's activity near South-Ossetia

Lets take just couple of months, starting from beginning of the August, before the laters war become full scale:

http://www.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/e78a480...c82f429bdc21c9a7c325749b00390822?OpenDocument

The situation in the Georgian-Ossetian zone of conflict, sharply exacerbated on August 1-2 by a massed mortar attack on residential quarters of Tskhinvali that caused a number of casualties, remains extremely explosive. Wide-scale hostilities between Georgia and South Ossetia are becoming increasingly a real and present threat.

Despite statements made by Georgian leaders about the need to take urgent action to de-escalate tension, the practical actions of Tbilisi belie these declarations. On the evening of August 2 and on the night of August 2-3, Georgia was conducting undisguised troop maneuvers on the approaches to Tskhinvali, and bringing troops and heavy army up to the Georgian-Ossetian zone of conflict.

...

Use-of-force scenarios would conclusively thwart all hopes of settling the Georgian-Ossetian conflict.

Ms.Rice was not that worry at the time when approaching violence was evident. It was totally alright to start war there, but certainly not alright to try to stop it as peace agreement requires it.

http://www.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/e78a480...e30100de1f42a248c3257487002cda8c?OpenDocument
...
in that by every bit of objective evidence Tbilisi was ready to make an armed attack on South Ossetia. Our timely steps helped avert a dangerous development of events.

No worries from "international community" about that, since "democracy instalment" apparently is being preprared.

http://www.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/e78a480...cdec8598316ccc73c3257481003870f8?OpenDocument
In South Ossetia, the city of Tskhinvali came under massive mortar attack from the Georgian direction; there are civilian casualties. Repeated violations of the conflict zone’s airspace by fighter jets and unmanned aerial vehicles of the Georgian air force were noted. An act of terrorism was carried out, in which a member of South Ossetia’s law enforcement bodies died.

Georgian troops arbitrarily set up a post on a strategic height near the village of Sarabuki. Without concurrence of the Joint Peacekeeping Force (JPKF) command, extra Georgian military equipment was introduced into the conflict zone, as recorded by military observers, including those from the OSCE Mission in Georgia. All of this points to the fact that an open, preplanned act of aggression has been committed against South Ossetia, an internationally recognized party in the settlement of the conflict.

No worries from "international community" about that, since "democracy instalment" apparently was being prepared.

Russia is ready to conscientiously and impartially continue vigorous efforts to help the parties in finding ways of a political solution to the problems of Abkhazia and South Ossetia within the framework of the approved multilateral formats, including the Group of Friends of the UN Secretary General on Georgia and the Joint Control Commission for Georgian-Ossetian Conflict Resolution.

But in the light of the new outbreak of provocations in the conflict zones it is hardly possible to continue “business as usual.” The chief thing now is to get firm commitments not to use force against Abkhazia and South Ossetia assumed, along with a de-escalation of the situation in the Kodori Valley. After this it will be possible to return to dialogue on confidence building, economic rehabilitation and other aspects of settlement.

We believe that at this stage the international community should concentrate on the containment of the aggressive manifestations that could send events in Abkhazia and South Ossetia developing according to a catastrophic scenario.

Forget it, "international community" cares not about avoiding war, but only when guarantor tries to stop it. If it is just war, then it is fine for "international community".

http://www.mid.ru/brp_4.nsf/e78a480...f8b38a2111f48aacc3257480001c02a0?OpenDocument

Several days before these events the Russian side had sent to the participants of the Joint Control Commission (JCC) for Georgian-Ossetian Conflict Resolution and to the representatives of the concerned international organizations a proposal to hold a meeting in Moscow for discussion of urgent confidence-building measures between the parties. We proposed as one of such measures that a radar station should be included in the Joint Peacekeeping Force to prevent conflict-zone airspace violations and to monitor observance of the agreements by the parties. The initiative was put forward in the spirit of full openness and partnership. The Georgian side flatly rejected our suggestion.

Ms.Rice was fine with that; how one can go "install democracy" in South-Ossetia when those actions will be recorded? "Democracy" needs freedom for hands (to bury it in blood), so no, radars were not needed.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

This is just one example how ours wonderful "international community" really "cares" about peace.

Blood is on their hands for doing nothing to press on Georgia, or, even worse, for supporting Saakashvili in his actions when the bloodbath was imminent.

And now those people advertise the "evil" Russia, which tried to voice actual concerns every possible way in UNO, OSCE, united groups and elsewhere.

Be sure that history books will register Russia as evildoer here.

Just as people read about 1962 Caribbean crisis and think that then-USSR leader Khruschev was just being pure evil putting rockets in Cuba, while in reality he did it only after Eisenhower's administration put nuclear rockets in Turkey, bordering with USSR. And, the goal Khruschev wanted to achieve, strategic parity, was accomplished: Kennedy agreed to take away rockets from Turkey, and Khruschev agreed to take away rockets from Cuba. Almost no one in western world knows it, so history books will probably always lie, since propaganda is needed.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

Georgian troops fire rockets at separatist South Ossetian troops from an unnamed location not far from Tskhinvali. Georgia is a strong American ally whose shift toward the West and pursuit of NATO membership has deeply angered Russia.

What a wonderful subscription. Many Russia-neighbour countries became NATO members during latest years and nothing happened to them. Yet if Georgia attacks South-Ossetia, then Russian is the guilty.

Perfect logic; may NYTimes readers have enough time and mind effort to see the brainwashing.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

No western cameras in South Ossetia
The conflict over Georgia’s breakaway republic is as much about information as it is about weapons. South Ossetia's press service claims Western media outlets can't be trusted because they haven't been operating in the region ”since the conflict began”.

No wonder we have this quality of coverage.Some news no one will know about in the west:

“As regards South Ossetia, the housing in Tskhinvali and border residential areas, practically everything has been destroyed there, to put it softly. I believe that we should help people return to their homes, help them restore their houses and apartments,” Putin said reporting to Medvedev results of his trip to Vladikavkaz (capital of North-Ossetia, Russian Federation).


He said the Russian government had developed a program of assistance to restoration of housing in South Ossetia.
“We should understand the scale of destruction. It is already clear that it is colossal, but at the first stage I consider it possible, and we have made the decision with the Finance Ministry to appropriate for these needs not less than 10 billion roubles. We are ready to increase this sum, but this can be done only after a serious analysis of the real situation by the moment of restoration,” Putin said.

When someone tries to care for peace money come as non-issue. The initial sum is not gigantic, $431 million, but still some concrete money especfially taking into account real money value (which tells that in South-Ossetia much more things can be done for that kind of money than in pricy developed USA or Russia's Moscow or Saint-Petersburg).

 

[The One.]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

I have no idea where this started from but it's so sad.
And makes me scary when there's gonna be like a really big war. Hopefully never again.

I just don't understand Russia. *sigh*

 

[The One.]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

I have no idea where this started from but it's so sad.
And makes me scary when there's gonna be like a really big war. Hopefully never again.

I just don't understand Russia. *sigh*

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

Has Georgia Overreached in Ossetia?

Imagine back in 1990 CNN wondering, "Has Saddam overreacted?", referring to its attacks on Kuwait, and running Hussein's interviews four times per hour (as CNN doing with Saakashvili now).

Or imagine back in 1990s CNN wondering, "Has Karadjic overreacted?", referring to Karadjic attacks on Saraevo, and running his interviews four times per hour.

Those are not accurate analogues, since situations are different, but one can see the approach.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

The One: it is easy to understand Russia if to read one post:

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1579990&postcount=16

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

Edited out.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

In 1918, when Lord Balfour was foreign secretary, he said:

"The only thing which interests me in the Caucasus is the railway line which delivers oil from Baku to Batumi. The natives can cut each other to pieces for all I care."

Little has changed in world geopolitics since the end of the first world war, when the Black Sea port of Batumi in Georgia was briefly under British rule.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/apr/01/georgia.oil

Those who have brains may see how much "democracy" means in politics.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

Russia asks US help with Georgia
[SIZE=-1]United Press International - Aug 4, 2008[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]... a large-scale military conflict with South Ossetia, RIA Novosti reported. After speaking to US Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Fried, Karasin said, ...

What a stupid thing to ask for, when "democracy" is about to be installed in South-Ossetia. And, USA's elections need "evil Russia" to empower Mr.MacCain positions as he is experienced Cold-War mentality hawk, much more suited for this than Mr.Obama.[/SIZE]

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

"Western countries behaved strangely in the first hours of aggression towards South Ossetia, they were silent," Deputy Foreign Minister Grigory Karasin told a news conference.

If they were not silent, then how in the world they could portray Russia as "evil" and the governement of country that broke peace agreement as "victim"?

Big Brother's (by Orwell) Ministry of Truth is weak prototype of what western mass-media became under guinding role of governments.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

Meanwhile, Georgia said Russian planes had bombed targets near its capital, despite Tbilisi declaring a ceasefire.

1. Georgia's government said it will no way attack South-Ossetia, thus declining to sign renewed obligatory agreement of not using force past months, when Russia offered it.
2. Georgia's government said they half the fire before ordering moving troop to South-Ossetia two house later in what they called operation for "regaining terriotorial integrity" (what in itself would be legal if there would be no UNO acknowledged peace agreement, signed by Georgia and South-Ossetia back in 1992).
3. Georgia's Saakashvili said many other direct lies for the sake of PR, and he knows what media need to make their propaganda.
4. The fire simply never stopped -- there are shootings of this, and the troops are not out of South-Ossetia either (though moved out of Tskhinvali).

Russia has continued air raids deep inside Georgia, after it rejected Tbilisi's announcement that it had called a ceasefire and wanted talks.

1) Of course, BBC does not point that until now there is no a single civil building that was damaged by rocket or a bomb in mainland Georgia (the only building damaned was not result either of that activity).
2) "rejected" -- carefully used word to brainwash readers/listeners, as if Russia's government simply ignored ceasefire.
3) And, the main point always omitted -- in Russia no one wants anothing firing conflict around country's borders; it is of interest of other political forces. Russia's government would end it as soon as possible, with considering better resolution Saakashvili arrested and judged further.

Tens of thousands of people have fled Gori, amid fears that Russian troops are heading for the town.

1) As of now, there is nothing that would tell that Russia's troops would go to Georgia's mainland -- maybe except for landing on Saakashvili's palace in Tbilisi in the attempt to capture him (what could be questionable and bloody depending on circumstances).
2) Thus it is outright disinformation.
3) Most probably people are feared of bomb strikes that around three military bases there. This is considerable fear, sadly.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

South-Ossetian authorities claim that Grad fire was again hit on Tskhinvali and there are new dead and wounded people after that. Not so much for "cease of fire".

FOR THOSE WHO AGED ENOUGH TO WATCH CNN OR BBC:

American citizen (from Florida) tells his evidence being in South-Ossetia, calling Mr.Bush to resign immediately, comparing Mr.Bush administration-trained, financed Saakashvili acts to Hussein's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRl3qArJO-o

Its another time when American people knew nothing about what their administration was doing in other parts of the world. USA people have nothing to do with it and their dignity as nation is traded for political gains here and there -- I never heard that they ever agreed to that.

1) there are 127 USA's military advisers in Georgia;

2) just week before Georgia's troops moved to South-Ossetia, there was massive military exercises under commandment of USA's higher military (Georgia's representative had to explain it at UNO meeting that it was mere to get ready for "peace");

3) Georgia's government was financed by U.S.-based fund for support of new democracies, headed by Mr.Bush-friendly former military higher commander, as well as George Soros fund (in the past), Saakashvili himself is child of American administration;

4) Ms.Rice visited Saakashvili just days before he ordered to break peace agreement by moving troops to South-Ossetia;

5) Georgia is officially called USA's ally by Mr.Bush administration;

6) Russia called "international community" to tame Georgia in vain for many times during latest months, telling that the war is imminent (see excerpts from pleas and warnings to Ms.Rice and other countries that they liked to ignore: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1580692&postcount=42 );

7) during all the years of Mr.Saakashvili at the power he was saying he will "definitely" get uncontrollable regions back (what would be totally legal if there would no 1992' peace agreement signed by Georgia and South-Ossetia, to which Russia is guarantor).

Despite that Mr.Bush's administration even officially arranged sale of weapons to the country (what would be totally common thing if the country would not desclare openly aggressive goals):

Pentagon even transferred old helicopters to Georgia years back as "gift". Incomplete list of what NATO countries were selling to Georgia in latest few years can be seen in the PDF: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jn5wfwya8we, found by a member of "PrisonPlanet.com" site: http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=53518.0

Russia sold or presented nothing to South-Ossetia (though the territory kept military equipment that was there since USSR fell apart). Neither helicopters nor any single military airplane to fight back Georgian troops, nor even air-defense system -- Russia gave nothing to South-Ossetia. That is why Tskhinvali of South-Ossetia was so easily bombed right away at the start of the war.

Though, anyway, South-Ossetia never wanted anything of Georgia aside of being left alone, so even sales of weaponry to there would be common, usual business.

7) Ms.Rice's office as well as the media were silent all the hours when Georgian troops entered South-Ossetia, and started to react only next day when Russia began to increase its troops in in the region after it had 10 of its peace-agreement-mandated soldiers killed and 30 more wounded. All those actions by Russia are legal in international law and obliged by peace agreement between Georgia and South-Ossetia (1992) since the country is guarantor.

8) creating "evil Russia" is very much useful thing in politics for current administration since Mr.MacCain will be seen by common American as much more suited Cold-War/hawk type of president rather than Mr.Obama.

This all may not mean anything -- but not many chances for that, though, since reality of politics is rather harsh.

 

[Kirshach]

Re: Post #55, video: USA witness calls Mr.Bush to be judged, comparing his ally Saakashvili to Husse

I'm so sad about that... All the world thinks now that Russia began the war...
CNN and BBC get all the information from Georgian government, they lie a lot.

For example, what about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCjq_z9D6bk&feature=related


Yes, CNN said about this video that this is the russian artillery bombarding Georgian city. But...
1) Russia didn't mobilized any earth-earth artillery
2) This video is made by georgian journalists, so how could they get so close to russian forces?
3) This kind of artillery weapon, journalists said, called "grad" which Russia didn't ever used

All the videos of "georgian" ruins are really the ruins of Ossetian town called Tshinvali.

Look at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zC5r6VNlhTE


It's a real genocide in South Ossetia, Georgian forces killed about 2000 of russian civilians. Some of refugees said that thay saw Georgian tank running over the ossetian old women with two babies on hands.

And by the way,
2 "facts", SNN said:

1) Russian military invades Georgia
2) Russian forces killes civilians

And just one question: how did georgian (!) journalists took the video of russian military killing cilvilians? Why the journalists are not dead, they are civilians too. Or may be russian soldiers want you and other people in the world to know that they really kills civilians?
World massmedia just creating "the country of evil" imagine again.
In top 10 of russian blog's discussion themes "The information war" is the first.
No one in Russia wants this war.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: Post #55, video: USA witness calls Mr.Bush to be judged, comparing his ally Saakashvili to Husse

Bernard Kouchner and Alexander Stubb visit shell-damaged buildings in Gori

That is horrible tragedy that Georgian civilians died and wounded around military objects because of misfire near to three military bases and weapons store in Gori. As I always say, no side of war can be "in white": the blood is on Russian military, too, of course. However, the responsibility in essence is on Mr.Saakashvili, who started the war with his order to break peace-agreement area limit, and, lately refused to call back georgian troops from South-Ossetia territory (despite 24/7 advertised claims for cease of fire and peace).

According to Russian government, military infrastructure of the aggressor (what Georgia is in international law since it broke 1992 peace agreement) will be destroyed, and as of now, since Georgian troops do not cease fire, and do not move out its troops to before-war limited area, defined in the peace agreement, there is no way to stop the war other than to destroy military media of the aggressor.

At the same time one may wonder why Bernard Kouchner and Alexander Stubb never dared to visit Tskhinvali.

One guess: because one can really die there any minute under fire from Georgian troops attacks and unpointed rocket discharge cover fire (those troops are outside of Tskhinvali already but still inside of South-Ossetia territory /as it was marked in peace agreement, signed by Georgia and the territory back in 1992/).

Three journalists were killed and four more wounded there in latest days, for example, as they thought they would photo and film what happened to the city. There are comparatively little of photo and video material from South-Ossetia because of that. They filmed like couple of three places in Tskhinvali and that is it.

There is internal information that I have that the situation may go much worse if Russia will be not able to hold other Caucasian nations for blood revenge. There is danger that Georgian people may suffer horrible massacre is if the war will not be stopped as soon as possible.

Thousands of volunteers of South-Ossetian and neighbouring nationalities have crossed border with South-Ossetia, going towards Tskhinvali -- while tens of thousand of refugees go through border between South-Ossetia and North-Ossetia (which is part of Russia).

 

[DenisRS]

Re: Post #55, video: USA witness calls Mr.Bush to be judged, comparing his ally Saakashvili to Husse

Kirshach:

Yes, the last thing Russia wanted is to have another war right under its stomach, in Caucasus. There are like hundred of nationalities around and even small thing may cause fire and massacres all over place. However, Russia could not let its citizens being killed as well as allow continue break of peace agreement, to which the country is guarantor (the duty which is internationally obligatory role; refusal of such responsibilities is international crime).

Even more: without Russia's state military participation multinational war could happen, and, as I said in the previous post, such probability still exists.

Nothing good of situation yet.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: Post #55, video: USA witness calls Mr.Bush to be judged, comparing his ally Saakashvili to Husse

U.S. military aircraft brings 800 Georgian troops home from Iraq

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said the U.S., which has backed Georgia's NATO membership aspirations, is hampering the peacekeeping operation in South Ossetia by flying the Georgian troops from Iraq to Georgia.

"It's a pity that some of our partners instead of helping are trying to get in the way, I mean the United States using its military transport aircraft to relocate Georgia's military contingent from Iraq virtually into the conflict zone, among other things," Putin said during a government meeting.

Putin said pulling Georgian troops out of Iraq would not change the situation, but called the move a "step back from a settlement."

He said he was astonished by the double standards and cynicism of U.S. foreign policy and accused U.S. diplomats of retaining a Cold-War mentality, labelling the aggressor the victim while the real victim ends up being blamed as the aggressor.

"Of course, it was right that Saddam Hussein was hanged for butchering several Shia villages, while the current Georgian rulers, who wiped out ten Ossetian villages in no time and burnt people alive in their homes, must be protected," Putin said sarcastically.

Thats just politics, what a strange thing to wonder. I have to admit that I predicted that there will be heavy twisting of events, but that totality of wall-to-wall falsification of things even I did not expect.

The world sees new highs of global false reality creation. It is crime against humanity, even though formally no one can punish CNN, BBC, Reuters, AFP, et cetera bosses for their 24/7 lies, as well as governments of some leading countries who participate in that. Totally amazing.

To be correct, not just Mr.Bush's administration participates in the biggest falsification of our time, but U.K., France, and leaders of some other European countries. They consciously, intentionally and publicly lie, lie country-scale-big way to their people, what is, again, crime in essence, though not formally.

Alas, common people have no idea of the scale of lies they are told. Complete continents are in dark of New Age "Ministry of Truth" (described in Orwell's "1984").

Most of people think they have regimes of "democracy" and "liberal media" and honestly believe what they see on TV and read in papers.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: Post #55, video: USA witness calls Mr.Bush to be judged, comparing his ally Saakashvili to Husse

NEWER UPDATE: Defence ministry of Russia says it took out its troops from inner Georgia since tasks were completed: Georgian artillery destroyed, and re-grouping of Georgian military prevented. Lets see what happens further.
UPDATE: Russia's defence minister said that there are no plans for Russian troops going to Tbilisi, capital of Georgia. Lets see what happens, since plans may change.


Russia may try to expel/capture Saakashvili as suspected international criminal

It is possible that if the war continues and Georgia will not capitulate, then Russia may try to even capture Mr.Saakashvili to judge him in certain international tribunal.

Russian troops are now heading towards inner Georgia. It is still totally legitimate according international law since the aggression of Georgian military is still not stopped.

Foreign Ministry of Russia was saying since yesterday that the government does not see Mr.Saakashvili as partner in serious negotiations.

They would probably want to capture him as suspected international criminal and judge him, since his orders caused many deaths and destructions, there is personal responsibility (hard to argue with that).

This caricature (from Independent newspaper, UK) exploits cliché about Russia but in terms of Mr.Bush participations sadly shows his role to Georgian nation, which suffered very much all the latest twenty years. That is even without being manipulated to be headed by marionette leader Saakashvili (in this aspect caricature is not acute), who ruined hopes for countries' territorial integrity of and is responsible for deaths of his own citizens, dying as casualties from attempts to stop Georgia governments' military activity.

However, Mr.Saakashvili can always try to flee (as his wife did, saying she better fly to her homeland, USA), if Russia will really try to do that. And, since he is Mr.Bush's ally (own private Hussein, though), nothing will happen to him aside of him being advertised further as democratic victim of evil Russia.

However, if Mr.Saakashvili does not plan to stop military actions, then, probably, the quicker he will be captured or forced to flee, the better for Caucasus, since, as I said earlier, big scale massacres may start all over the region if it will last long. Thousands of Ossetians and neighbour are near to break loose in anger and blood revenge against Georgians. This never should be allowed.

Simultaneously, those even more scary things may (hopefully) not happen. And, there is possibility that Mr.Saakashvili still can be allowed to stay as head of Georgia, lets see.