Po#104: Georgia's army filmed shelling Tskhinvali from tanks/Grad;Po#83/75/62: Kosovo/MacCain/Lesson

Re: Update, post#60: Russia may try to expel/capture Saakashvili as suspected international criminal

Those are like first moments of truth I saw in four days in international media.

Reuters said:
South Ossetians flee cellars for safety in Russia
Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:20am EDT

By Dmitry Solovyov

JAVA, Georgia, Aug 11 (Reuters) - A safe haven in Russia was almost within sight for refugees from South Ossetia's besieged capital on Monday as they waited in parched streets for buses to ferry them over the border.

Java, between South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali and the border with Russian North Ossetia, has become a staging area for people fleeing cellars where they hid from Georgian shelling that Moscow says has nearly destroyed their city.

Some wearing only dressing gowns and sneakers, they fled Tskhinvali and surrounding villages carrying plastic bags of clothes and documents, and some scant food supplies.

Some had walked down through the mountains and slept in forests to get to Java, where buses collected them for the journey to the North Ossetian capital Vladikavkaz. Russian artillery fired from Java's outskirts as columns of tanks, armoured vehicles, howitzers and rocket launchers flowed in. South Ossetian men wielding Kalashnikov assault rifles and wearing flip-flops loitered in the shade.

"There is so much machinery flowing in from both sides. I am afraid the fighting will be so fierce there won't be a house left standing," said Zaira Slanova, aged 70, a retired engineer from Tskhinvali.

She was waiting for her sister, aged 77, to join her in Java for the short ride to Vladikavkaz. Her children, who live in Moscow, had arranged transport over the border, she said.

Slanova said she had spent four days hiding in a cellar as Georgian troops shelled Tskhinvali. Two days into the siege, an elderly man was killed by a mortar on the street outside.

"We all suffered two days from the terrible stench of putrefaction as he was decomposing in the scorching heat," Slanova said. "So we just buried him on the spot where he died."



"PUTIN DEFENDS US"

South Ossetia, which fought to break free from Georgian rule in 1991-92, maintains close ties with its Russian North Ossetia. Most of South Ossetia's 70,000 people hold Russian citizenship, entitling them to Russian state benefits.

South Ossetia's affinity with Russia has been a thorn in the side of Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, who took power in a 2006 grassroots revolution. His aspirations to join NATO and promises to ensure territorial integrity have won support from Western governments.

"If Saakashvili stood in front of me, I would wish him eternal hell after what we have been through," an elderly woman said, weeping in a Tskhinvali street as she recounted how she hid from Georgian bombardment in a cellar with her two terrified grandchildren.

"Why is he trying to kill Ossetians? He should see with his own eyes what he has done with us. He would be ripped to bits on the streets if he ever came here."

As Georgian troops shelled the city, she said, her grandson screamed for "Uncle Putin" to save him. "Thank God the Russians have come," she said. "It is getting better."

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin on Monday criticised the West, saying it had mistaken the aggressors for victims in the conflict over South Ossetia.

"Putin is our golden leader. He defends us and gives us food," said 73-year-old Nadezhda Pliyeva, waiting in Java for a bus to Vladikavkaz after fleeing the village of Prinevi, 12 km from Tskhinvali.

Tengiz Khugayev, aged 45, a member of the South Ossetian rebel contingent dressed in camouflage uniform, was shuttling refugees between Java and the North Ossetian capital.

"One should understand that if we are cut off from Russia, we will have no future," Khugayev said.

"If Russia withdraws its troops from here, we won't be able to do anything. Look, the Georgians laid waste to Tskhinvali in just one day. We will not survive without Russia." (Additional reporting by Denis Sinyakov in Tskhinvali; Writing by Melissa Akin; Editing by Catherine Evans)

© Thomson Reuters 2008 All rights reserved

But Ms.Rice and the leaders of "international community" want exactly that Russian troops to go out. If you, Ossetians, will not die, then how "democracy" can be installed on your territory by the rose Saakashvili? If you are Russian citizen, then your life worths nothing, everyone should remember that.


The story is as simple as this:
%7B918bb6cd-b61d-42b4-9ff1-c33aa94c173e%7D.gif


Well, actually, not so simple in details, but still. And it is no anyway funny actually since even one casual victim, from whatever side, is horrible tragedy and should have never happen.
 
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Re: Post #61: Reuter's article: like first moments of truth about war in Georgia; I am in shock

Analysis: how powerful countries can behave decently, comparison of examples

Preamble:
Just in case if someone has no idea what is "overreaction" and "disproportional use of force":
From 24th march to 8th June 1999 NATO did more than 35 000 raids on Yugoslavia. More than 1000 military air planes took part in the assault. Were used: more than 10 000 cruise missiles, more than 79 000 tonnes of explosive materials, including 152 full-size containers with 35 450 cluster, thermo-visual, graphite bombs, uranium-core shells, with the latter four being prohibited by international conventions.
For those who do not know: Mr.Clinton's and "international community"'s decision to ruin the country Yugoslavia was not only "overreaction" and "disproportional use of force", but legally aggression, according to international law.

Yes, contrary to what happens now with Russia crushing military aggression of Georgia's troops, which is legal and obligatory according to peace agreement between Georgia and South-Ossetia from 1992, where Russia signed as guarantor.

And yes, Yugoslavia bombing example is also contrary to what Russia did back in 1990s in Chechya (though there were horrible bombings and war crimes of those events were investigated for years, until very recently), since Chechnya is Russia's territory and because in two wars there was either no peace agreement (the first war, started by Yeltsin), or because terrorists from Chechnya attacked neighbour region Dagestan in 1999 (the second war), starting the war.

Yes, most people do not know that "the evil Putin" never started a single war or military conflict, contrary to, for example, the beloved by "international community" Mr.Clinton -- who signed for aggression (international crime) not even once, but several times. Certainly, with no chances for him ever going under tribunal. (Not to say that Putin is any near to be saint; internally, he fails to follow constitution in many critical aspects, even though not in those where brainwashing critique focused on).

Of course, American people have no idea about that and since they were brainwashed in 1990s as about much as in 2000s, I again can only say that I never heard that USA citizens actually consciously wanted that the dignity of their nation would be traded for political games, used to commit internationally illegal deeds that provoke global hatred and fear of their country.

It is the same as Russia's Yeltsin government from the first war in Chechnya in 1995-1996 caused many excessive deaths and hatred from Chechen people ("international community" loved Yeltsin very much, nonetheless). Chechens only recovered from that hatred (by far not completely, of course) after they understood that people who became their dictators in the territory, with extremist's Sharia laws rendition, chopping heads here and there to off people, including European journalists, trade of slaves (yes) -- with all that those people did not care about the wellbeing of Chechen nation.

They used Chechen territory to prepare terroristic attack on fellow Russia's region Dagestan. That why current Chechen government consist of former subordinates of the killed dictator. All those people got amnesty, because they sincerely thought they fighting against Russia's military for the sake of their nation but instead made their people suffer more. They did not want that.

Evil Putin then has put an end to dictator and his Al-Quade aides, destroyed the bands and invested tens of billions of dollars (in equivalent) to repair Chechnya. Currently evil Putin offered more than $430 million for South-Ossetia restoration, and this figure is just very beginning (and the money themselves should have been brought as reparation from Georgia, but no one really wants poor country to pay anyway).

This is just an example how decent policy of administration can bring constructiveness to the world. Mr.Obama could make such change in big way for USA, but now he has to compete with Mr.MacCain on who will make more "serious" statement against Russia.

Because if he will not, he may loose to Mr.MacCain on elections as "weaker" candidate against "re-emerging eternal ultimate evil" Russia.

------------------------------------------------------------------

For video of American citizen (from Florida) telling his evidence of being in South-Ossetia, calling Mr.Bush to resign immediately, comparing Mr.Bush administration-trained, financed Saakashvili acts to Hussein's (like starting the war, almost day before Russia added troops to the region in the attempt to crash the military aggression of the regime) -- see here:
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/sh...4&postcount=55
 
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Re: Post #61: Reuter's article: like first moments of truth about war in Georgia; I am in shock

I'm getting so sick of my country (the U.S.) sticking its nose where it doesn't belong. Our government is spending unthinkable amounts of our tax money for these wars that doesn't even concern us. I can't wait until Bush leaves office. I don't understand 99.9% of the decisions he makes for this country. I don't think he even knows what he's really doing!
We aren't what we used to be. I don't know if our economy can ever get back to where it was.
 
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Re: Post #62, analysis: how Mr.Obama could change the world for better, Georgia and Chechnya wars le

1000 US Soldiers in Georgia from Jul 15 to Aug 8 2008



Soldiers and Marines from the United States, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, and Ukraine conduct joint training exercise "Immediate Response 2008" at Vaziani Military Base in the Republic of Georgia and the surrounding area. The state of Georgia is represented by the 1st Battalion, 121st Infantry, headquartered in Winder, as well as members of the 122nd Rear Operations Center from Glenville. "
This 'training exercise' took place at the Vaziani Military Base, and was to run for 3 weeks from July 15th, Until roughly August 8th, which is precisely when the fighting broke out.

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/1000_US_Soldiers_in_Georgia_from_Jul_15_to_Aug_8_2008
 
Re: Post #62, analysis: how Mr.Obama could change the world for better, Georgia and Chechnya wars le

Yes, and there are almost 130 USA military advisers in Georgia even to this day.

The media as mantra point out that Russia backs South-Ossetia and Abkhazia. However it is the way different "back" comparing to Mr.Bush's "back" or Georgia:

1) those regimes, aiming for independence, appeared years before Russia even existed, in the times of late USSR. Russia had nothing to do with installing those regimes.

People of those two territories never were citizens of Georgia, and after USSR ceased to exist, many of them chose to apply for Russia's citizenships. It took years for those people to go through common procedure. Russia itself never offered citizenship to people; people made applications.

While Mr.Saakashvili is completely and openly Mr.Bush's marionette (being educated, and co-financed with his government from "support for democracy" institutions, he even speaks in English better than in Georgian and sometimes makes internal policy statements in English, what is actually humiliation for independance of Georgian people);

2) Russia never sold a single air plane or even air defence system to either Abkhazia or South-Ossetia, since those regions were considered as participating in conflict. This rigorous following of international policy principles is now criticised inside of Russia, since South-Ossetia could have been never attacked is it would be properly stuffed with all that weaponry.

Mr.Bush arranged sale by NATO countries billions of dollars value of weapons, including more than 300 armour vehicles and tanks, mostly of USA's production. And Mr.Bush did so at the very same time Ms.Saakashvili openly declared he will go on uncontrolled-yet regions. In essence, this is crime of Mr.Bush's administration against humanity, even though, in this case, it can not be classified as that formally.

3) until now, Russia never agreed to accept South-Ossetia as its territory despite many pleas from the region during the years -- saying that territorial integrity of countries is the law (even though the matter if Abkhazia and South-Ossetia are actually belong to Georgia's territory is complicated).

Mr.Bush's administration almost declared Georgia to be Georgia II (meaning second Georgia State of USA).
 
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Re: Post #62, analysis: how Mr.Obama could change the world for better, Georgia and Chechnya wars le

Yesterday undisclosed source of USA's defence ministry was quoted by CNN saying that Russian military goals were all done already, with military infrastructure of Georgian armed forces being destroyed and disorganized.

It turned out that Pentagon's estimation was correct. Now, Medvedev announced formal end of operation. Lets see if (and hope) there will be no fire actually further. And, it seems that such risky thing as trying to capture Saakashvili is declined. This would be risky in sense that there could be a lot victims, even though not among civilians.

A person I know is there in South-Ossetia now and any additional deaths are not needed.

BBC said:
Our correspondent says Mr Medvedev's announcement must be seen in the light of the US president's words.

Of course, not; propaganda continues and will continue in the aftermath. It must be seen in the light of what Pentagon said, as it is pointed above.

If Russia is not going to capture Saakashvili, and Georgia's military forces pushed back from South-Ossetia, then Russia simply fulfilled its mandate as guarantor of peace and that is it.

CNN said:
Georgia: Attacks continuing despite Russia halt claim

It was said by Medvedev right away: if points of military activity will emerge/sustain, then those should be destroyed. However, CNN finds the way to twist things around every time.

Also, Georgia always said many thing, with those being not correct often. Like about that the country will not sign force-restraining document because it is not going to use force "on its own people" during latest months, or about downing 20 Russia's air planes, while 4 were lost, or about Russia's military striking civil targets, which is possible, of course, due to misfire and navigation errors, but needs verification.

Comparing to that, Russian Defence ministry (not to mix it with International Affairs ministry) said very little, comparing to that, and, as of now, it can be said there was military type of accuracy in their information. Not to say there are will be ever things that could be automatically believed, if they come from one of the sides.

And, eventually, there is no information yet that Medvedev, nor Putin words in international affairs ever stayed to be just words.
CNN said:
Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, who addressed the rally, has accused Russia of provoking the war to justify a full-scale invasion of the former Soviet state. The Russians say Saakashvili attacked first in an attempt to gain control of South Ossetia.

Of course, when there is outright lie is told and facts are as straight and evident as day, CNN always make things like it is words (of the rose of democracy) against words (re-emerged eternal ultimate evil Russia).

CNN's conclusion of articles about the subject said:
The situation in South Ossetia escalated rapidly from Thursday night, when Georgia said it launched an operation into the region after artillery fire from separatists killed 10 people. It accused Russia of backing the separatists


Just as in case with Michael Jackson, the media prepared manipulating standard ending.

The situation in South-Ossetia escalated rapidly from Thursday night: not when Georgia said whatever, but when it committed heavy unpointed missile fire by Grad system on Tskhinvali where none of South-Ossetian armed machines were deployed. Each discharge of that system ruins about 1 hectare (100 000 square foots).

Also, Russia's "backing of separatists" has nothing to do with Georgia's decision to break peace agreement and move their troops to South-Ossetian territory.
 
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Re: Post #62, analysis: how Mr.Obama could change the world for better, Georgia and Chechnya wars le

Since there are little or no footage/photos from Tskhinvali in the Western media (and there are even cases where such footage/photos ascribed to inner-Georgia), I post some here -- just for the sake of balance for those who sees nothing but CNN/BBC.

There was a night when the attack on Tskhinvali started and many people were already sleeping. The lowest photos are from hospital, which got few direct shots thus patients who remained alive after that and newly wounded people were moved to the basement.

On one of the pictures, there is destroyed Georgian tank; one of tanks killed uncle of American citizen's wife. He can not get buried to this day, even now.

115968635.jpg


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Re: Post #62, analysis: how Mr.Obama could change the world for better, Georgia and Chechnya wars le

According to some Georgian citizens all TV channels except for inner state were taken off as soon as last week. Internet access to ".ru" zone was blocked completely, thus most of people never could learn some truth via Internet, either.

So the most of Georgians think that it was Russia who started the war and Mr.Saakashvili repeatedly was making claims that Russia's air planes bombed Tskhinvali -- both to CNN and on the meeting today in Tbilisi, Georgia's capital, and on Georgian television. He also said he saw it with his own eyes, that he was there, but in reality was not in Tskhinvali.

No wonders people were running off Tbilisi and Gori in latest days.
 
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Re: Post #62, analysis: how Mr.Obama could change the world for better, Georgia and Chechnya wars le

Reuters said:
Using language redolent of his mentor Vladimir Putin, Medvedev criticized Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili on Tuesday as a "lunatic". Saakashvili had promised voters he would win back South Ossetia and a second separatist area, Abkhazia.


"You know, lunatics' difference from other people is that when they smell blood it is very difficult to stop them. So you have to use surgery," Medvedev told a news conference.


In 21 years that Georgia ever existed as "independent" country it started 7 wars -- some legal, some questionable and completely illegal -- in terms of international law.


Now, Georgia's parliament speaker re-iterated today that the country will own both South-Ossetia and Abkhazia anyway. That would be totally legal if they acheive that through negotiations -- but this is hardly possible. Then they may not mean anything else than occupy those territories. Such occupation would not be "occupation" and would be totally legal if Georgia would not sign peace agreement back in 1992 and in 1994 (with South-Ossetia and Abkhazia), where Georgia took obligation use only negotiations as measure.



After being beaten in Kuwait, Hussein got under embargo and blockade -- which was horrible humanitarian crime against Iraqi people and hardly had nothing to do with actually undermining his power.


At the same time, was Hussein welcomed to become member of NATO, as the organization offers to Georgia now, and further advertised as democrat?


What will USA do when and if there will be 8th war, started by Georgia, if it will be NATO member? According to NATO basic rules, all countries will have to participate in defense of Georgia. So, should all NATO countries then declare war with Russia then?
 
Re: Post #62, analysis: how Mr.Obama could change the world for better, Georgia and Chechnya wars le

CNN uses footage from destroyed by Georgian "democracy" Tskhinvali as ruins in Gori, inner Georgia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=893tK-sVP9I




As lying as ever; those people should have been judged for this crime of misinformation. In prior times, real wars were started because viewers were consciously and maliciously brainwashed.

----------------------------------------------------

ONLY FOR THOSE WHO ARE OLD ENOUGH TO WATCH CNN OR BBC (wounded and dead photographed):

http://life.ru/news/30782

There is complete set of highly advertised photos of "victims of bombardment of Gori by Russia", where everyone can see that:
1) there are at least two cars after heavy automobile accident (which usually generate deaths or at least wounded); in one of the photos a corpse still lies right near damaged car, and on the rest the same car or the other smashed car are seen as point from where bodies or wounded are dragged;
2) there are no traces of bombardment or whatever, and anyone with brain can understand that bombings do not result cars being side- or front-hit by other cars;
3) other cars are photographed moving as usual, what obviously can not happen on the are after bombing.
4) there is video footage of the same thing, where more people laying around, though, of course, there are not traces of bombing, either. It is not clear if additional people are actually wounded or not. Videocamera avoids shooting accident-damaged cars: http://www.delfi.ee/news/gruusia/gruusia/article.php?id=19585398
There could be bullet fire action -- which is terrible consequence if true, but not any bombing. The matter is that the media should tell lie in like everything, small or big.

----------------------------------------------------------

Not to say, though, that there were no actual damages and casualties in inner Georgia, including Gori. But damages are far less scary (couple of buildings in total; those presented as results of "bombing", with one of them actually being caught on fire -- either from detonations of near-by weapon store, with stored shells flying around and blowing up around, or from arson) than those of South-Ossetia, so CNN liked to commit forgery.

As to casualties, even a single one is horrible tragedy. Casualties are mourned both in Russia and Georgia today nationwide.
 
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Re: Post #70: CNN uses S-Ossetia ruins as footage of Gori; Post #62: Georgia and Chechnya wars lesso

Times said:
US cancels joint exercise with Russia
The move is the first concrete expression of Washington's disapproval at Moscow's military action

Of course, how could they do this now when Russia's military destroyed large part of military forces and infrastructure in Georgia, that were, correspondingly, trained and financed by USA administration. The more so USA held already excercises with Georgian military just day before they moved to South-Ossetia. Enough for Mr.Bush for now.

Times said:
Residents in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, inspect a tank destroyed in the Russian bombardment

Russia did not bomb Tkhinvali, but readers should told lie.

Times said:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4518254.ece

As foreign correspondents poured into Tbilisi a team of Belgian PR advisers launched a slick operation to keep them updated with e-mail alerts detailing the latest alleged aggressions by Russia and the Georgian Government’s reaction. On Sunday, for example, more than 20 e-mails went out to shape Georgia’s message that Russia had launched an invasion.

Some of the claims veered into outright exaggeration – such as stating that Russian jets were “intensively bombing Tbilisi” or that Russian troops had taken Gori – but the 24-hour news culture meant that many organisations repeated them without independent verification.

Some technique.

from the same article said:
Victors and vanquished
Winners
Vladimir Putin: he made it clear to the world that Georgia had been the aggressor and that his soldiers were intervening to stop “genocide”
Dmitri Medvedev: he announced the end of the war to coincide with the arrival in Moscow of President Sarkozy, providing him with a diplomatic coup
Russian military might: as a contest it was Russia 10, Georgia 0
Losers
Mikhail Saakashvili: the picture of the Georgian President cowering from a Russian helicopter said it all
The Georgian people: thousands paid with their lives or had their homes destroyed because of their Government’s misadventure
Nato membership: Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, the Secretary-General, insisted that the war did not mean that Georgia had sacrificed its chance of joining the alliance, but it will not have improved its chances
Western leaders: despite the diplomatic efforts and statements of outrage, they were outmanoeuvred by Moscow, unable to offer even a hint of military combat assistance for the would-be Nato member

I am personally not sure about those conclusions, but, anyway, this rarest example of sense is made sure not promoted on Times site -- thus people would not read it. One should really want to find that article to be able to read it.

Times said:
we have created an illusion of prosperity by borrowing massively, and we have squandered any pretensions at moral leadership by participating in illegal wars.

Paul Amery, London,

Russia never started nor participated any illegal war since it became standalone country in 1991. Also, Russia never refused of any of its contracts -- no matter how much politically it would be reasonable.


Times said:
I can't imagine a President Obama standing up to Putin. They're in different leagues.

Rob, NY, USA

That is the result of the whole story in perspective of USA's elections. Mr.Bush's administration is winning.
 
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Re: Post #70: CNN uses S-Ossetia ruins as footage of Gori; Post #62: Georgia and Chechnya wars lesso

law about procedure of federal republics going out of USSR said:
ON PROCEDURE OF FEDERAL REPUBLIC OUT OF USSR

THE LAW
HIGH SECURITY COUNCIL OF USSR
April 1990 # 1409 - I (VVSS 90-15)
____________
Clause Z. In the federal republic, which itself into the autonomous republics, autonomous areas and autonomous districts, the referendum is held separately for each of autonomy. People of the autonomous republics and autonomous entities retain the right to an independent decision on the stay in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, or in emerging federal republic, as well as on the question of their legal status public.

This is just automatically translated text, but anyone can still see there that referendums were due to happen in all three disputable regions of Georgia. None was happened and all three autonomous regions were attacked by Georgian military back in 1991, as well as later, and then again later, now, with South-Ossetia.

Starting 7 illegal (most of it) wars in all 21 years of independence Georgia ever had is surely constitutes the way of "democracy".
 
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Re: Post #68: Georgians cut off of info,told Russia attacked first; P#62: Georgia & Chechnya wars le

am confused about something. if Russia's involvement in this conflict is to defend South Ossetia, and guarantee peace, how come Russia is not in South Ossetia defending them from Georgia and have gone into Georgia itself and doing battle? What does going into Georgia do to ensure peace, which is as i understand from what's been written in the thread so far, is their role in all of this?
 
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Re: Post #68: Georgians cut off of info,told Russia attacked first; P#62: Georgia & Chechnya wars le

Georgia's leader Saakashvili said that it highly critical for country's independence is its airports and seaports to be controlled by other country, meaning USA -- which denied the claim. (The idea in itself is rather ridiculous.)

It looks now that the war is over; Russia's refusing of risky possibility to capture Saakashvili make it shorter, even though the decision is questionable according to some experts in the country.

CNN said:
Georgia's President Mikheil Saakashvili suggested Russia invaded his country to establish control over the former Soviet republic, where a major oil pipeline passes through.

Well, the oil pipeline goes in inner Georgia and has nothing to do with either South-Ossetia or Abkhazia territories. Russia could capture whole territory, including the oil pipeline way, right away but the government said there was no such goal -- and what they told happened to be the truth.
 
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Re: Post #68: Georgians cut off of info,told Russia attacked first; P#62: Georgia & Chechnya wars le

friend said:
am confused about something. if Russia's involvement in this conflict is to defend South Ossetia, and guarantee peace, how come Russia is not in South Ossetia defending them from Georgia and have gone into Georgia itself and doing battle? What does going into Georgia do to ensure peace, which is as i understand from what's been written in the thread so far, is their role in all of this?

Sorry for being that detailed in this answer, but I had to try to be as concrete and accurate as possible.

There are three aspects:

1) why peacekeepers themselves could not protect South-Ossetia without additional Russian military support?

The point is that peacekeepers contingent was of low quantity and had no any heavy weaponry such as tanks. Also, the contingent consisted of both Russian and Georgian military forces, with the latter being suddenly withdrawn from their duty without united (peacekeepers') commandment order and returning back quickly with the rest of Georgian attack army with tanks and et cetera.

Thus initial 10 of Russian peacekeepers were killed right on their posts by shelling from Georgian tanks -- and, to think about, their former peacekeeping colleagues participated in that. Nice story, right?

Russia did not increase its military presence in South-Ossetia because there was no formal basis to do so according to the mandate. And Russia's army on its own territory was not even concentrated near to its border with South-Ossetia, according to Pentagon's source -- it tells that country's government did not expect attack on South-Ossetia immediately right away happening hours before it started. They foresaw it could happen sometime, maybe near time, but not right away immediately; or else they would be in Tskhinvali much faster.

2) did the peacekeepers protect South-Ossetian inside their terriory?

The peacekeepers did protect South-Ossetia from inside of that territory, helping local fighters to move out Georgia's military forces out of Tskhinvali and of the region altogether. That could not be made possible without additional military forces from Russia, since Georgia had about 90 tanks and 8000 soldiers going on Tskhinvali and there was the period when they almost completely controlled the city.

3) Were peacekeepers along with military re-enforcement from Russia going to inner Georgia?

Since even two days after Georgia's leader Saakashvili declared "cease of fire" it actually did not cease and Georgia's troops were still inside of some South-Ossetian territory, as well as shelling in from the inner Georgia, there was decision to push the aggressor's troops to some distance from limited border according to 1992 peace agreement, to prevent further shelling of South-Ossetia's territory.

Thus those action's by peacekeepers were legal in terms of mandate, since there was no way to protect South-Ossetian territory without stopping the aggression from beyond the agreed border. It should be noted that the territory of regular peacekeepers disposition is defined by the peace agreement, and not the territory where the guarantor can act, trying to stop the military aggression of one of the sides. Indeed, it would be ridiculous if the aggressor could move out of the limit and continue attacking from distance and the peacekeepers would not be able to go there and stop it. There are no examples of such profanation of peacekeeping in UNO-approved peace agreements practice.

After doing that and the end of operation, declared by Medvedev, all the heavy weaponry and forces were ordered to move back to the territory of South-Ossetia, with small groups of reconnaissance troops on light-armoured vehicles (not tanks, about which CNN/BBC falsely reported) moving around the dumped Georgia's cities and taking care of the dumped warehouses of armour and military equipment. Now those small groups are mostly withdrawn, too.

Even though peacekeeping forces were ready to seriously fight with Georgian army beyond the limit of South-Ossetia territory, there were no actual battles because Georgian army was withdrawn and quickly ran away from everywhere in long distances, dumping the cities and weaponry altogether. Thus the goal of Russia's troops going beyond the limit of South-Ossetia was achieved, long distance attacks on South-Ossetia were mostly stopped.
 
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Re: Post #68: Georgians cut off of info,told Russia attacked first; P#62: Georgia & Chechnya wars le

Quote:
Originally Posted by Times, a visitor comment
I can't imagine a President Obama standing up to Putin. They're in different leagues.

Rob, NY, USA


That is the result of the whole story in perspective of USA's elections. Mr.Bush's administration is winning.

So what we have here is that Russia fulfilled its mandate, protected the attacked one, stopped the attackers, punished them as Medvedev promised, and took out (now taking the last parts of) its troops from where those are already not needed by mandate definitions.

The main importance of Mr.Bush's administration (sorry, but that obviously not people -- neither Georgian, not South-Ossetian) -- Georgia's oil pipeline, which competes somewhat to Russia's oil pipelines, is not captured (and the pipeline is situated in inner Georgia, which has nothing to do with either South-Ossetia or Abkhazia territory; and, finally, there is no oil in those two regions, either).

That is because the re-emerging imperialistic eternal ultimate evil Russia simply fulfilled its peacekeepers mandate and that is it. It did not even decide to capture Saakashvili to judge him in tribunal as suspected international criminal, even though it had the right to do it since his order to move troops to Tskhinvali, South-Ossetia, caused deaths of many of its citizens.

Also, many do not know, but in the best imperialistic traditions, in the time of the evil Putin, Russia wilfully signed closure its military base in inner Georgia, as well as closed its last military bases in Vietnam and Cuba (USA increased its presence around the world since then).

Yes, one can not find any more imperialistic moves than that. Maybe Georgia's war, as explained here (not on CNN).

-- Or the fact that Russia never started or participated any illegal wars since it became standalone country in 1991 (both wars in Chechnya were legal because the territory is part of Russia *and* there there was no any peace agreement or it was broken by local regime in Chechnya war with attacking Neighbour region Dagestan, which was the start of the second war in 1999).

-- Or maybe the fact that the country sells its natural gas to Ukraine cheaper than to Europe (and never was offering higher prices than regular).

-- Or that the country never refused of any of its contracts or international obligations, not matter what the political needs were or not. It even kept its biggest parts of its troops out of European part of its own territory according to international agreement that NATO did not fulfil for years already, pushing its troops in quantities closer and closer to Russia's borders.

This all constitutes imperialism, obviously, so only Mr.MacCain can go against such evil policies (the whole civilized humankind is terrified). Or else the "democracy" in danger around the world, some other regions may fail to be democratized -- mostly with bombs, as usual -- if Russia would be allowed to get away with what it has done to the poor rose democracy aggression by Georgia.
 
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Re: Po#75: only McCain can go against imperialistic eternal ultimate evil Russia; P#62:Georgia lesso

But recently Russia said it will not already comply to the agreement of common military forces limitation in Europe and just now said it will probably re-install at least air port in Cuba and (or) Venezuela for supersonic strategic bombers Tu-160 (by far the biggest ever produced supersonic air plane) and Tu-95, citing worsening of international safety during the latest years. You might guess thanks to which administration that safety worsened.

So yes, if international politics will go as it goes now, Russia may indeed become imperialistic in the future.
 
Re: Po#75: only McCain can go against imperialistic eternal ultimate evil Russia; P#62:Georgia lesso

watching cnn, they said that Poland has agreed to allow US to place missiles there, and Russia is livid.... great
 
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Re: Po#75: only McCain can go against imperialistic eternal ultimate evil Russia; P#62:Georgia lesso

Well, one USA's senator commented that Russia may take an action.

If Mr.Bush's administration cares so much for the world peace and safety, then they may hear about military bases in Cuba and Venezuela again.

CNN said:
Georgia says Russia backed separatists who broke cease-fire and sparked violence

"Separatists" wanted nothing ever of Georgia, aside of being left alone, none of them was ever going to capture Tbilisi, the capital of inner Georgia. Also, I cited the story how Georgian part of peacekeeping troops were suddenly retreated just before the aggression started. So why would South-Ossetians want to attack Georgia's military. Russia wanted nothing of Georgia either, as I said, few years ago, in Putin time, it volitionally withdrawn its military base from Georgia.

And, most importantly, there is no way how peace agreement can be broken by use of such excuse.

And the "response" by Georgian military was an massive missile attack on Tskhinvali (which had no artillery or anything at all to attack there) and other 10 villages. And not a mere missile attack, but attack with use unpointed Grad serial missile discharge systems. Also, tanks went to there.

So this is outright lie, as usual.

CNN Larry King Live said:
GORBACHEV (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Well, this is all lies from beginning to end. And I am -- really, I really think this is really beyond comprehension. I have heard the opinion of Eduard Shevardnadze. He knows what the situation is on their side.

So it was all at night, a little past midnight, when the city was asleep. Then from all sides, it was shelled with shells of enormous power. They used artillery. They used aircraft. They used all weapons of killing. And this is really amazing.

Tskhinvali, in fact, was devastated by fire from multiple rocket launchers against people, against housing, against hospitals, against water and sanitation, against the energy and communication infrastructure. All of that was destroyed. The old monuments were destroyed. And they were among the oldest in the Caucasus. The ancestral graves were ruined -- were then trampled by tanks.

KING: Mr. President, excuse me, you are saying that Georgia started this?

GORBACHEV (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Yes, indeed. There is no doubt about it.

What is more, the response required the movement of additional forces into South Ossetia because Tskhinvali was attacked by a powerful force, by an armada. And I remember the Second World War. I remember the front. I remember the occupation. I saw terrible weapons used. But this was the use of sophisticated weapons against a small town, against sleeping people. This was a barbaric assault.

...

Military budgets are growing. Weapons trade is going on at a hectic pace. Look at Georgia. Had Georgia not been armed to the teeth, it wouldn't have done what it has done. A small state has a $1 billion military budget. All kinds of countries participated, but particularly the United States armed Georgia with sophisticated weapons -- aircraft, land weapons. Mountains of weapons were supplied to Georgia.

(https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gg.html)

And I think that this is the inevitable outcome, when weapons budgets -- military budgets grow, when weapons pile up, it works one day. It actually shoots one day. And this is what happened.

So I think that the signs of a cold war are present. But we still have time to prevent it.

Larry King was in complete shock.

Correction on Russian and peacekeepers military forces status in inner Georgia: General Nagovitsyn said that even though most of the troops are get withdrawn from inner Georgia, they formally stay where they were at the moment of the end of operation, announced by Medvedev few days ago. And complete take-out will be done when only it will be ensured that the plan of 6 points, agreed between Russia, France, and others, will start actually implementing. Saakashvili did not sign the plan yet. Special decision should be taken according to the plan after Georgia will sign it.

Georgia said "100 Russian tanks" are in inner Georgia, but they said too many things, none of them was true. For example, they said Russia destroyed airport in Tsbilisi and it turned out the object is fine when USA's military cargo jets landed there yesterday.
 
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Re: Po#75: only McCain can go against imperialistic eternal ultimate evil Russia; P#62:Georgia lesso





FoxNews makes a mistake by having 12 year old girl and her mother interviewed -- they suddenly tell truth on what happened in South-Ossetia. 126 000 views on YouTube is still small, but some people at least will have idea what the story was beyond "The Ministry of Truth" version of events.

So Gorbachev interview and this -- at least something.

comment from a viewer said:
Fox News even had to cut them off right in the middle of the account of Georgian aggression even though they had just come from a commercial break 2 minutes prior to that.

That is the democracy; Russian media have long way to achieve that freedom of speech level.

FoxNews said:
Amanda fled to Russian-controlled North Ossetia

Right; it is like saying George Bush visited USA-controlled New-York. FoxNews now deny that parts of Russia belong to the country. :lol:
 
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Re: Po#75: only McCain can go against imperialistic eternal ultimate evil Russia; P#62:Georgia lesso

Angela Merkel again said she thinks that use of force by Russia was "excessive", even though I never heard yet where exactly it was excessive if Georgia's government aggressiveness made no other choice but to destroy and disorganize its military forces and infrastructure.

In the last twenty years it was probably the least excessive use of force for such cases. Of course, civilian casualties are inevitable and every death is tragedy, but there was no other way to stop the aggression and elimination of a very small nation -- Ossetians.

So yes, as of now, there is no actual critique of enforced peacekeepers, only political agenda/propaganda, and nothing else. It just ranges from rather mild like from Merkel to rather harsh by USA and Saakashvili itself, which includes outright lies in every interview.

Update on Russian troops in inner Georgia: a general said they almost completed destroying explosives from weapon-warehouse in Gori (where were three military bases), as well as confiscation of all military equipment, such as handed-missile systems and such.
 
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Re: Po#75: only McCain can go against imperialistic eternal ultimate evil Russia; P#62:Georgia lesso

Some moments of truth there:

Independent (UK) said:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...ys-who-are-the-west-trying-to-kid-897498.html
Mary Dejevsky: Russia the bad guys? Who are the West trying to kid?

Friday, 15 August 2008
As Russian forces started to hand over control of the Georgian town of Gori yesterday, you could detect a note of surprise, even disappointment, in many media reports. So the all-out Russian invasion of plucky little democratic Georgia might not be going to happen after all. Could it be that the bear was drawing in his claws?

Well, Russia did not have long to worry about losing its reputation as backyard bully. Within hours, the United States envoy to Georgia was spinning a whole new myth to the BBC about how it was only decisive US intervention – by which he presumably meant the warplanes laden with humanitarian aid by then ostentatiously parked at Tbilisi airport – that the mighty erstwhile Red Army had been turned back.

The many Georgians who had counted on more timely and robust assistance from their US protector surely laughed a bitter laugh. But there were signs, with the arrival of the US Secretary of State in Georgia, that this version was gaining hold. The story of this war, it seems, will be that the US faced down a snarling, expansionist Russia, and forced it to limp back to its lair.

This is a travesty. But it is only the latest and most glaring in a series of Western misrepresentations and misreadings of Russian intentions throughout this sorry episode. They began with the repeated references to Russian "aggression" and "invasion", continued through charges of intended "regime change", and culminated in alarmist reports about Russian efforts to bomb the east-west energy pipeline. None of this, not one bit of it, is true.

Take "aggression" and "invasion". Georgia declared itself to be in a state of war with Russia. War, regrettably, is war, and a basic objective is to reduce, or destroy, the enemy's military capability. This is what Russia was doing until it accepted the ceasefire. The positions it took up inside Georgia proper can be seen as defensive, not offensive. Gori houses the Georgian garrison on South Ossetia's border.

And anyway, how did hostilities begin? Georgia sent troops into South Ossetia. The status of that region – which declared unilateral independence – is anomalous. It is inside Georgia's borders, but outside its control. But one reason why the dispute has not been solved is that the "fudge" over independence brought with it a degree of stability. Georgia's action upset that stability. But did anyone describe it as "aggression"? Trying to explain Russian "aggression", many reports went further, observing a "new" mood of Russian aggressive nationalism. Today's Russia, they reasoned, was uniquely liable to lash out, because energy wealth had fuelled new national ambitions. Where, though, is the evidence that Russian national pride is automatically malign?

If you exclude Chechnya, which Russians have always regarded as part of Russia, then neither Putin, nor Medvedev, had sent troops outside Russian borders before this point. As for the idea that Putin wants to restore the Soviet Union – derived from his remark about the Soviet collapse being "among the greatest catastrophes" of the 20th century – nothing could be further from what he did. Far from hankering after a lost empire, Putin used his years as president systematically to fix Russia's post-Soviet borders, signing treaties with every neighbouring country that would agree – including, last month, China.

Of course, Russia does not like the idea of another Nato member on its borders. But this is not the same as wanting to restore "ex-Soviet space". It reflects Russia's view of its legitimate security interests.

Perhaps the most pernicious assumption over the past week, however, is that Russia wanted to effect "regime-change". Russian officials categorically denied this, insisting that they had no business overthrowing an elected leader. You might scoff, but Russia has done nothing that would contradict this. The Kremlin would probably be delighted if Georgians eventually punished their President for his misguided enterprise, but Russia seems to accept that Georgians decide what happens in Georgia.

Why was it so difficult for outsiders to believe that Moscow wanted precisely what its leaders said they wanted: a return to the situation that had pertained before Georgia's incursion into South Ossetia – and does it matter that its intentions were so appallingly misread?

Yes it does. If outsiders impute to Moscow motives and objectives it does not have, they alienate Russia even further, and make a long-term solution of many international problems that more difficult. It is high time we treated Russia's post-Soviet leaders as responsible adults representing a legitimate national interest, rather than assuming the stereotypical worst.
m.dejevsky@independent.co.uk

The point is that "international community" does not care about peace, about people's lives, about truth, about world's stability, about disarming -- about anything of that. No, that is not only Mr.Bush's administration, many countries participated in this political gamble on the deaths of real people.
 
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Re: Po#75: only McCain can go against imperialistic eternal ultimate evil Russia; P#62:Georgia lesso

Mrs.Angela Merkel said that not every nation that would want to live as standalone country is able to do it.

Obviously, it is her who decides which can, and which not. That is how Kosovo, the ancient land of Serbians, which is considered as sacred to the nation and became largely populated by Albanians only during last decades, was made to be "independent".

Now, both Abkhazia and South-Ossetia have the rights for independence by two orders more legitimate than Kosovo ever had, but Mrs.Merkel, Mr.Bush, others, this time "all of sudden" wilfully do not agree with letting specifically those two regions be independent. It was them, "international community", who started to deform existing countries, and they did it with Serbia; Russia warned back then that it would be a precedent.

Until now, Russia refused to accept South-Ossetia's pleas about their territory being included in the country (this small fact makes stories by Mr.Saakashvili about Russia wanting to annex South-Ossetia and that is how the country "provoked" nightly massive destruction of sleeping city Tskhinvali -- very "sound").

However, now Russia already said that people of those regions will decide their destiny by themselves. And country's troops will not go from those regions no matter what Ms.Rice "demand" and what she says Russia "must" do. This means what will happen is what Putin said after three days the war started: "Georgia's government committed crime against its own people, since the war is the deadly terminal blow to the country's territorial integrity ... There is no way to imagine that those regions would ever want to stay in Georgia".

And, of course, both Georgia's government and Mr.Bush administration knew that beforehand. That is why Mr.Saakashvili policy has basically nothing to do with Georgia's actual interests, but rather manipulated from Mr.Bush's administration, which directly armed, trained, and financed him, as well as doing most of financing less directly, through funds for support of young "democracies".

Not that Russia did not itself felt what its like to give people freedom to live how they want. Back in 1996 Russia has let its inner region Chechya to have factual independence. It lasted for three years: before terrorists -- that used the territory for everything but care of Chechen nation -- attacked fellow Russia's region Dagestan. Putin then crushed the regime of chopping heads and slave markets (yes, there was that phenomenon), recruited some of higher commandment from the crushed regime who saw that the decision to attack fellow region had nothing to do with Chechen interest, and invested tens of billions of dollars to repair the region.
 
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Re: Po#75: only McCain can go against imperialistic eternal ultimate evil Russia; P#62:Georgia lesso

watching cnn, they said that Poland has agreed to allow US to place missiles there, and Russia is livid.... great

Yes so I saw...

Check this: a News article with a scary title:

Russia threatens nuclear attack



(perhaps this is a continuation of western world scare tactics on their population in regards to the big scary russia?? )

RUSSIA warned Poland yesterday it faced a nuclear attack if it accepts a US missile interceptor base on its soil.

The ominous rhetoric came as Moscow signed a treaty to stop the fighting in neighbouring Georgia, another US ally which is seeking to join NATO like Poland.
US and Polish officials signed a deal on Thursday for Poland to host a system the US says is aimed at blocking attacks by rogue nations, such as Iran.
But Moscow is convinced the base is aimed at Russia's missile force.
"Poland, by deploying (the system) is exposing itself to a strike; 100 per cent," General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, the deputy chief of staff of Russia's armed forces, was quoted by the Interfax news agency as saying.
He added that Russia's military doctrine sanctions the use of nuclear weapons "against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons, if they in some way help them". General Nogovitsyn also said that would include elements of strategic deterrence systems.
President Dmitry Medvedev said the deal "absolutely, clearly demonstrates what we had said earlier: the deployment has the Russian Federation as its target".
But last night, Mr Medvedev signed the plan for a ceasefire in Georgia that his Georgian counterpart reluctantly agreed to a day earlier, setting the stage for a Russian troop withdrawal after more than a week of warfare.
The Russian leader signed the order in the resort city of Sochi, where the president has a summer residence, Mr Medvedev's spokesman Alexei Pavlov said.
The ceasefire plan calls for Russian forces to withdraw to the positions they held before the fighting broke out in Georgia's Russian-backed separatist province of South Ossetia. That appears to mean that hundreds of Russian soldiers who had been in South Ossetia previously as peacekeepers will be allowed to return.
Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said the US agreed to help augment Poland's defences with Patriot missiles in exchange for placing 10 missile defence interceptors in the country.


certainly interesting... :ermm:


I'm getting tired of all the powerhouse countries holding their hands up and trying to pretend like they are the innocent party. When the reality is that NONE of these countries have hands free of bloodshed. Why take ownership when you can just point the finger at someone else (be it another country, or a previous government).
 
Re: Post #83: Georgia to be no more: Kosovo precedent; Post #75: McCain wins; Post #62:Georgia lesso

The last part of South-Ossetia was freed from Georgia's government administration that was set in the beginning of war just yesterday.

BBC said:
”This time I hope he means it ... people are going to begin to wonder if Russia can be trusted,” Ms Rice said of Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, on NBC’s ”Meet the Press” on Sunday.
She noted that the Russians had also said earlier in the crisis that they would start pulling troops from Georgia but had not done so.


Medvedev said from very beginning that troops will be taken out when 6 principles will be at least signed by all parts. Saakashvili did not sent the papers until yesterday about. So why would Russian troops be taken out before that? Partial troops move out occurred, though.


Two years ago Mr.Saakashvili moved its troops near to Abkhazia, another problematic region, to the demilitarized territory according to 1994' peace agreement. Back in 2006 Russia could use it as legitimate reason to attack Georgia's military forces, but it did not since the country wanted to go diplomatic way. Not until Georgia's military tried to wipe out Ossetians from South-Ossetia Russia took military action, according to peacekeepers mandate.

Again, this is very imperialistic behaviour by Russia, which obviously "wanted" to have a war right under its stomach -- in the region, where any conflict can explode into massive massacre.
 
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Re: Post #83: Georgia to be no more: Kosovo precedent; Post #75: McCain wins; Post #62:Georgia lesso

L.J : neither in Czech Republic, nor in Poland people were asked whether they want Mr.Bush's systems on their territory.

July 2008 said:
The poll showed that 44 percent of Czechs are against the radar, 35 percent support the base and the rest do not know.

Now, "just in case", those two countries will be wiped out completely thanks to political games of their government with Mr.Bush's administration.

Czech anti-radar activists boycott US made products
[SIZE=-1]Xinhua, China - Aug 8, 2008[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]8 (Xinhua) -- Czech activists opposing the planned US radar base on Czech soil are trying to boycott products made by US companies, the daily Hospodarske ...[/SIZE]
Experts: Ray from U.S. radar base threatens human health


www.chinaview.cn
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2008-07-29 06:22:19
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Print
PRAGUE, July 27 (Xinhua) -- The ray from the planned U.S. radar base in the Czech Republic can threaten a plane and people aboard, the daily Pravo quoted a study by an expert group on Monday.
The planned no-fly zone would not provide sufficient protection and should be widened to 50 kilometers, as far as the international Prague-Ruzyne airport, the study said.
There is a threat that the emitted ray hits a plane including its passengers, it said.
"The bounds of the no-fly zones should be widened at least to 50 kilometers if the health of the people on the ground and on board the plane is to be safeguarded," the experts said.
"Electromagnetic waves can be reflected within about 50 kilometres from the radar toward the ground or another plane. Every flight of the planes within 50 kilometres from the radar is potentially highly dangerous," they added.
Even the border of 50-kilometers is very problematic in the conditions of a dense air traffic. If the radar's performance is increased, the dangerous zone may reach as many as 80 kilometers, they said.
"The official no-fly zone has been delineated wrongly and it is dangerous in the conditions of the Czech Republic," the study said.
However, the Defense Ministry disagreed with the conclusions of the study.
"The no-fly zone is safe as it was delineated," spokesman Andrej Cirtek said.
The United States wants to build the radar base on the Brdy military grounds, 90 kilometers southwest of Prague, and a base with ten interceptor missiles in Poland within its missile shield.
About two-thirds of Czechs disagree with the project, according to a poll conducted by the CVVM polling agency in July.
Totality of massive upside-down disinformation about the latest war allowed Mr.Tusk to avoid people's rage over his agreement to install missiles on Poland's territory. He could not do that before the story with Georgia no matter how Ms.Rice tried. Now you have got another another answer to why Mr.Bush's administration supports Georgia's government attempt to wipe out small Ossetian nation.

I attended military department the in university I studied, and the speciality was anti-air strike defence systems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-400_Triumf). The first thing we were taught that "just in case" we will have the shortest war time since we will be destroyed at once as soon as possible, despite all the mobility our systems have.
 
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Re: Post #83: Georgia to be no more: Kosovo precedent; Post #75: McCain wins; Post #62:Georgia lesso

Already in 1945 those Russian barbarians disproportionally applied force, outrageously broke territorial integrity of certain country and even made its democratically elected chancellor suicide!

You can not stop counting the horrible deeds of those crazy Ivans, it just never ends.
 
Re: Post #83: Georgia to be no more: Kosovo precedent; Post #75: McCain wins; Post #62:Georgia lesso

Washington Post said:
While Aide Advised McCain, His Firm Lobbied for Georgia
Campaign Dismisses Timing of Phone Call, Contract

By Matthew Mosk and Jeffrey H. Birnbaum
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, August 13, 2008; Page A03

Sen. John McCain's top foreign policy adviser prepped his boss for an April 17 phone call with the president of Georgia and then helped the presumptive Republican presidential nominee prepare a strong statement of support for the fledgling republic.

The day of the call, a lobbying firm partly owned by the adviser, Randy Scheunemann, signed a $200,000 contract to continue providing strategic advice to the Georgian government in Washington.

The McCain campaign said Georgia's lobbying contract with Orion Strategies had no bearing on the candidate's decision to speak with President Mikheil Saakashvili and did not influence his statement. "The Embassy of Georgia requested the call," said campaign spokesman Brian Rogers.

But ethics experts have raised concerns about former lobbyists for foreign governments providing advice to presidential candidates about those same countries. "The question is, who is the client? Is the adviser loyal to income from a foreign client, or is he loyal to the candidate he is working for now?" said James Thurber, a lobbying expert at American University. "It's dangerous if you're getting advice from people who are very close to countries on one side or another of a conflict."

At the time of McCain's call, Scheunemann had formally ceased his own lobbying work for Georgia, according to federal disclosure reports. But he was still part of Orion Strategies, which had only two lobbyists, himself and Mike Mitchell.

Scheunemann remained with the firm for another month, until May 15, when the McCain campaign imposed a tough new anti-lobbyist policy and he was required to separate himself from the company.

Rogers said Scheunemann "receives no compensation of any type from Orion Strategies and has not since May 15, 2008." Scheunemann declined to be interviewed for this story.

As a private lobbyist trying to influence lawmakers and Bush administration staffers, Scheunemann at times relied on his access to McCain in his work for foreign clients on Capitol Hill. He and his partner reported 71 phone conversations and meetings with McCain and his top advisers since 2004 on behalf of foreign clients, including Georgia, according to forms they filed with the Justice Department.

The contacts often focused on Georgia's aspirations to join NATO and on legislative proposals, including a measure co-sponsored by McCain that supported Georgia's position on South Ossetia, one of the Georgian regions taken over by Russia this weekend.

Another measure lobbied by Orion and co-sponsored by McCain, the NATO Freedom Consolidation Act of 2006, would have authorized a $10 million grant for Georgia.

For months while McCain's presidential campaign was gearing up, Scheunemann held dual roles, advising the candidate on foreign policy while working as Georgia's lobbyist. Between Jan. 1, 2007, and May 15, 2008, the campaign paid Scheunemann nearly $70,000 to provide foreign policy advice. During the same period, the government of Georgia paid his firm $290,000 in lobbying fees.

Since 2004, Orion has collected $800,000 from the government of Georgia.

Rogers said Orion's representation of Georgia had no bearing on McCain's decision to speak with Saakashvili in April. "The Embassy of Georgia requested the call because of Georgian concerns over recent Russian actions dealing with South Ossetia and Abkhazia," he said.

McCain has said that he has worked closely with Georgia and its top officials since the mid-1990s. On the campaign trail yesterday, McCain referred to Saakashvili as a close friend.

But Rogers acknowledged that "Scheunemann and others on the foreign policy staff are involved in call requests and statements on foreign policy issues."

After the April call, McCain issued a statement that day voicing support for Georgia's position.

"We must not allow Russia to believe it has a free hand to engage in policies that undermine Georgian sovereignty," McCain said in the statement. "Georgia has acted with restraint in its response and should continue to do so."

Melanie Sloan, executive director of Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, said it may be impossible to know whether Scheunemann's advice to McCain was truly unvarnished.

"The question is, whose views are you really espousing?" Sloan said. "Are they really your own views, or are they the views that are bought and paid for by the clients of your top aides? McCain probably would be sympathetic to Georgia regardless, but having a guy like Scheunemann as a top aide raises questions."

Hari Sevugan, a spokesman for the Democratic candidate, Sen. Barack Obama, said Scheunemann's business ties to Georgia raise questions about how much he influenced McCain's position on the Georgia conflict.

"It's these sorts of appearances of a conflict of interest that are a natural consequence of having a campaign run by lobbyists, staffed by lobbyists and being ensconced in a lobbyist culture for over a quarter of a century," Sevugan said.

Research editor Alice Crites contributed to this report.

Some hint on reality is there.
 
Re: Post #83: Georgia to be no more: Kosovo precedent; Post #75: McCain wins; Post #62:Georgia lesso

Kosovo is Serbia!
 
Re: Post #83: Georgia to be no more: Kosovo precedent; Post #75: McCain wins; Post #62:Georgia lesso

It had to be, but this year few major countries such as USA and biggest European decided to split Serbia into parts and make Kosovo independent. That is why there is no way now that Georgia will keep its territorial integrity.

Russia already said that there will be no double standards applied no matter what Ms.Rice and others say.
 
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