Po#104: Georgia's army filmed shelling Tskhinvali from tanks/Grad;Po#83/75/62: Kosovo/MacCain/Lesson

[DenisRS]

U.S. military aircraft bring 800 Georgian troops home from Iraq

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said the U.S., which has backed Georgia's NATO membership aspirations, is hampering the peacekeeping operation in South Ossetia by flying the Georgian troops from Iraq to Georgia.

"It's a pity that some of our partners instead of helping are trying to get in the way, I mean the United States using its military transport aircraft to relocate Georgia's military contingent from Iraq virtually into the conflict zone, among other things," Putin said during a government meeting.

Putin said pulling Georgian troops out of Iraq would not change the situation, but called the move a "step back from a settlement."

He said he was astonished by the double standards and cynicism of U.S. foreign policy and accused U.S. diplomats of retaining a Cold-War mentality, labeling the aggressor the victim while the real victim ends up being blamed as the aggressor.

"Of course, it was right that Saddam Hussein was hanged for butchering several Shia villages, while the current Georgian rulers, who wiped out ten Ossetian villages in no time and burnt people alive in their homes, must be protected," Putin said sarcastically.

------------------------------------------

Unfortunately, another war has started; lets hope it will end as quickly as possible.

At the same time, politician Richard Holbrooke found the guilty already:
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/08/08/sots.holbrooke.cnn?iref=videosearch


The story is as simple as that:

 

[friend]

See DenisRS explanation for title - Conflict in any event

summary of story: each is claiming the other initiated it, Russia's talking tough, and Georgia's our ally.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080808/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia

 

[DenisRS]

Re: Richard Holbrooke finds the guilty of new war

Resume: Georgia's troops bombed South-Ossetia and the guilty is Russia. :blink:

 

[DenisRS]

Re: Russia & US Ally Georgia at War -- Hundreds of Civilians Dead

To be correct, "each" is not Russia: it is either Georgia or South Ossetia (which is internationally accepted part of Georgia, even though whether the territory actually has to do with the country is complicated matter).

Also, the title of the thread sounds too bold, since there is no way how Russia can be at war with Georgia, one just can not compare. Georgia is at war with South Ossetia and Russia promised to severely punish break of UNO resolution, what was attack on South Ossetia. Russia has UNO mandate for that.

So lets not get drowned in mass-media propaganda yet.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: See DenisRS explanation for title - Conflict in any event

Ms.Rice just said that Russia should take back its troops of Georgia.

Interesting position since Russia did not really want to go there and waited until 10 of its UNO mandate soldiers killed and 30 other wounded before moving additional troops to there.

But if Russia would not enforce its contingent then there could be much more bombings and refugees in South-Ossetia than it is now.

Medvedev just told to Angela Merkel that Russia will stop fighting there. UNO mandate is given exactly for that.

However, common sense is not the point of political propaganda so we will see more twisting of events and statements similar to what Ms.Rice stated.

Russia for years refused to accept South-Ossetian pleas to become part of Russia for the sake of international law, which respects territorial integrity of countries.

The country was very consistent in that even after Kosovo was annexed of Serbia for political reasons. But lets see what happens, since the last mentioned fact in great way undermined stability in the world in terms of some countries wanting parts of other countries becoming "independent".

Anyway, lets hope the conflict will soon end with stop of fire as Medvedev said. Will this need smashing Georgian military forces? Lets hope they comply and that is it.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: Richard Holbrooke finds the guilty of new war

"Permanent members Britain, the US and France, are pinpointing what they say is Russia's aggression as the key factor in the slide towards war"

Governments of some major countries again are ready to allow another bloodbath of destroyed cities, countless deaths and refugees of civilians for the sake of political gain.

They say that Georgian military in South-Ossetia (what was against UNO regulations) is act of "democracy" (in Mr.Bush classical meaning of democracy, id est more bombs and deaths) and UNO-mandated troops that try to stop it is "aggression".


"International Red Cross spokeswoman Anna Nelson said it had received reports that hospitals in Tskhinvali were "overflowing" with casualties."

Obviously, some politics would prefer more of this rather than attempt to stop aggressive actions on South-Ossetia.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: Richard Holbrooke finds the guilty of new war

Georgia, a former Soviet state, sent troops into South Ossetia on Thursday, aiming to crack down on the separatists, who want independence or unification with North Ossetia, which is in Russia. Russia responded Friday, sending troops into the Georgian province where it had peacekeepers stationed.
"I saw bodies lying on the streets, around ruined buildings, in cars," Lyudmila Ostayeva, a resident of the South Ossetia capital, Tskhinvali, told The Associated Press on Friday.
"It's impossible to count them now. There is hardly a single building left undamaged," she said after fleeing to a village near the Russian border, AP reported.
"They are killing civilians, women and children, with heavy artillery and rockets," Sarmat Laliyev, 28, told AP.

In the best traditions of CNN:


1) they put quotes from witnesses right after writing that Russia sent additional troops to South-Ossetia -- thus not very careful reader could conveniently confuse things and think that the deaths and ruins was Russia's doing;


2) at no place CNN reports that Georgia sending troops to South-Ossetia is break of internationally/UNO approved peace agreements, as well as that Russia is obliged to enforce stop of the fire there as guarantor of peace by the same agreement. During years, tens peacekeepers died for that sake.


However, to be correct, no side in military confict is eventually able to walk out completely "in white", so the whole thing is sad.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: Richard Holbrooke finds the guilty of new war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K51_Grad

This machine can not make pointed hits, thus how ospitals in South-Ossetia got ruined along with patients, and many more buildings, electro power plants, water supplying facilities were harmed, with many casualties.

I understand that this is the way of "democracy", but may I say that most of the world for long time already associates that kind of "democracy instalment" with bloodbath?

 

[DenisRS]

Re: Richard Holbrooke finds the guilty of new war

Now Georgian civilians were killed by Russian's forces bombing of military bases and misfire on near buildings. Unfortunately, this was expected, because there is no war without casualties.

Things are not going better yet.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: Richard Holbrooke finds the guilty of new war

Just like in history of European wars in 1990s, "respectable" BBC (and CNN, but this concrete screenshot is from BBC) places pictures of the offended territory (Tskhinvali, South-Ossetia) and ascribe/subscrite it being pictures from the offender territory (in this case, Georgia).

Concretely, the picture in the middle of the screenshot is from Tskhinvali, which was attacked by Georgian military forces. It is even seen in Russian language where it was filmed. Yet the underwriting says about Gori, city with three Georgian military bases that were bombed in the attempt to make the military stop and move away troops to 1992 truce borders.

This is to addition than in the text they put Tskhinvali victims number right below mention that Russia added troops to enforce its UNO-mandated peacekeepers (ten of which were killed before).

This is to ensure that "public opinion" in the West could be as manipulated and brainwashed as nearly in every single conflict with heavy political interest.

CNN and BBC always were as manipulative as they could, sometimes even using direct forgery.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: Richard Holbrooke finds the guilty of new war

All other the Western world, brainwashing unfolds full-scale. For example, lets see what "respectable" Washington Post editorial tells:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy.../08/08/AR2008080802741.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Simple factsthat Russia's actions are obligatory by UNO acknowledged peace agreement of 1992 (as guarantor) would threw away all the political nonsense, but it never mentioned.

So Western public opinion is manipulated to think that they should "stop Russia".

So when illegitimate, international crime is planned, then the media tell their readers "Go for it!", and when internationally legitimate action is taken to stop military force use, they tell "Stop the enforcing of peace!".

-----------------------------------------------

Following talks between the presidents of Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Sweden and Ukraine, Lithuanian Foreign Affairs Minister Petras Vaitiekunas is in Georgia on a fact-finding mission.


Vaitiekunas said in a statement that "Russian military forces have gone through all the red lines by crossing an internationally-recognised border into the sovereign territory of Georgia.
"This is a clear act with visible elements of aggression and an outrageous violation of international law with grave consequences to regional and Euro-Atlantic stability and security as well as to Euro-Atlantic relations with Russia," he added.

Now even heads of countries use direct lie and readers ignorance to make their point. Russia has mandate to keep military force there in Georgia and is obligated to keep peace there.

 

[friend]

Re: Richard Holbrooke finds the guilty of new war

so this basically boils down to a boundary dispute? is that correct?

i hope US doesnt get pulled into this.

 

[mello1]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

Dennis: Keep us a breast of what is happening over there. I'm very concerned. Stay safe.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

To put it short:

1) during soviet time, South-Ossetia was ascribed to administrative territory of Georgia;

2) when Soviet Union fell apart, South-Ossetia did not want to be under administrative control of Georgia;

3) hence the war started and Tskhinvali, South-Ossetia, was ruined in 1991;

4) Russia enforced truce in 1992 and all sides signed UNO acknowledged peace agreement, where Russia was guarantor;

5) South-Ossetia numerously plead to become part of Russia, since none of its citizens were ever citizens of Georgia from very beginning and because South-Ossetia was artificially divided region, forming South-Ossetia and North-Ossetia, the latter being part of Russia currently. However, Russia always denied those pleas, telling its respected territorial integrity of countries, Georgia including.

6) Back in 2004, current leader of Georgia came to power, promising to take regions that did not acknowledge Georgian administrative supremacy after SU fell apart in 1991.

7) with little effort on negotiations, Georgia's current leader numerously confirmed that he will gain control over such regions, including South-Ossetia. It should be noted that South-Ossetia did not want anything of Geogria, with its troops never going on Tbislisi -- neither now, nor in the past.

8) in latest days, Georgian forces happened to break conditional border by peace agreement from 1992 and moved to Tskhinvali. The city became nearly destroyed, including hospital, with many casulaties and 30 000 refugees coming to Russia.

9) along the way, 10 Russian UNO-acknowledged mandate soldiers were killed, and after that Russia decided to enforce its contingent with additional troops. Russia is obligated to enforce peace by 1992 agreement.

Now we have 24/7 propaganda on CNN and BBC, completely twisting things. Russia hampered with "democracy" being installed in South-Ossetia.

 

[mello1]

Re: Richard Holbrooke finds the guilty of new war

In the best traditions of CNN:


1) they put quotes from witnesses right after writing that Russia sent additional troops to South-Ossetia -- thus not very careful reader could conveniently confuse things and think that the deaths and ruins was Russia's doing;


2) at no place CNN reports that Georgia sending troops to South-Ossetia is break of internationally/UNO approved peace agreements, as well as that Russia is obliged to enforce stop of the fire there as guarantor of peace by the same agreement. During years, tens peacekeepers died for that sake.


However, to be correct, no side in military confict is eventually able to walk out completely "in white", so the whole thing is sad.

Got ya on that CNN. They are totally useless. Holbrook saying what he said only inflames the rhetoric already being put out there.

So correct me if I'm wrong Dennis. Separatists in South Ossetia has started an insurrection of which Georgia is trying to put down.

Russia is sending in its troops to enforce UN mandates.

Is that correct?

 

[mello1]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

To put it short:

1) during soviet time, South-Ossetia was ascribed to administrative territory of Georgia;

2) when Soviet Union fell apart, South-Ossetia did not want to be under administrative control of Georgia;

3) hence the war started and Tskhinvali, South-Ossetia, was ruined in 1991;

4) Russia enforced truce in 1992 and all sides signed UNO acknowledged peace agreement, where Russia was guarantor;

5) South-Ossetia numerously plead to become part of Russia, since none of its citizens were ever citizens of Georgia from very beginning and because South-Ossetia was artificially divided region, forming South-Ossetia and North-Ossetia, the latter being part of Russia currently. However, Russia always denied those pleas, telling its respected territorial integrity of countries, Georgia including.

6) Back in 2004, current leader of Georgia came to power, promising to take regions that did not acknowledge Georgian administrative supremacy after SU fell apart in 1991.

7) with little effort on negotiations, Georgia's current leader numerously confirmed that he will gain control over such regions, including South-Ossetia. It should be noted that South-Ossetia did not want anything of Geogria, with its troops never going on Tbislisi -- neither now, nor in the past.

8) in latest days, Georgian forces happened to break conditional border by peace agreement from 1992 and moved to Tskhinvali. The city became nearly destroyed, including hospital, with many casulaties and 30 000 refugees coming to Russia.

9) along the way, 10 Russian UNO-acknowledged mandate soldiers were killed, and after that Russia decided to enforce its contingent with additional troops. Russia is obligated to enforce peace by 1992 agreement.

Now we have 24/7 propaganda on CNN and BBC, completely twisting things. Russia hampered with "democracy" being installed in South-Ossetia.

Got ya. And I have a thought as to why CNN is twisting this.

October surprise.

In August.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

Thanks, Mello1, I am safe. I will try to keep information up to date. However, I will not go into details, since there is a lot of propaganda from all sides. For example, I never quoted number of victims claimed by any side since it can be voluntary inflated or deflated for the PR gain.

I do not trust any media, Russian, international, whatever. Thus more correct picture can be taken only looking at various competing sources.

 

[mello1]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

Thanks, Mello1, I am safe. I will try to keep information up to date. However, I will not go into details, since there is a lot of propaganda from all sides. For example, I never quoted number of victims claimed by any side since it can be voluntary inflated or deflated for the PR gain.

I do not trust any media, Russian, international, whatever. Thus more correct picture can be taken only looking at various competing sources.

I agree. I will be interesting in knowing all you can find on this one. Thanks!

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

So correct me if I'm wrong Dennis. Separatists in South Ossetia has started an insurrection of which Georgia is trying to put down.

They did not insurrect, they did not want anything, they were all by themselves for the last fifteen years, none of them ever had Georgian passports, and even more, they signed to be citizens of Russia.

Georgia's will to enforce territorial integrity in understandable, that is why Russia never agreed to make South-Ossetia it's part. However, if there was peace agreement, signed by Georgia, then negotiations should be taken in peace and military actions are prohibited. This was broken now "by the last hope of democracy", Georgia's current leader.

How now Georgia supposed to keep its integrity with it's military moving to Tskhinvali (city of South-Ossetia), breaking peace agreement? I am not sure how Georgians will estimate Saakashvili, it's current leader, in long running historic pespective.

It is sad for Georgia and it's people, not only for South-Ossetia.

 

[friend]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

To put it short:

1) during soviet time, South-Ossetia was ascribed to administrative territory of Georgia;

2) when Soviet Union fell apart, South-Ossetia did not want to be under administrative control of Georgia;

3) hence the war started and Tskhinvali, South-Ossetia, was ruined in 1991;

4) Russia enforced truce in 1992 and all sides signed UNO acknowledged peace agreement, where Russia was guarantor;

5) South-Ossetia numerously plead to become part of Russia, since none of its citizens were ever citizens of Georgia from very beginning and because South-Ossetia was artificially divided region, forming South-Ossetia and North-Ossetia, the latter being part of Russia currently. However, Russia always denied those pleas, telling its respected territorial integrity of countries, Georgia including.

6) Back in 2004, current leader of Georgia came to power, promising to take regions that did not acknowledge Georgian administrative supremacy after SU fell apart in 1991.

7) with little effort on negotiations, Georgia's current leader numerously confirmed that he will gain control over such regions, including South-Ossetia. It should be noted that South-Ossetia did not want anything of Geogria, with its troops never going on Tbislisi -- neither now, nor in the past.

8) in latest days, Georgian forces happened to break conditional border by peace agreement from 1992 and moved to Tskhinvali. The city became nearly destroyed, including hospital, with many casulaties and 30 000 refugees coming to Russia.

9) along the way, 10 Russian UNO-acknowledged mandate soldiers were killed, and after that Russia decided to enforce its contingent with additional troops. Russia is obligated to enforce peace by 1992 agreement.

Now we have 24/7 propaganda on CNN and BBC, completely twisting things. Russia hampered with "democracy" being installed in South-Ossetia.

thanks. trying to wrap my brain around, so thanks for being patient. so from what you said, it seems that Georgia is the aggressor here? and that Russia as the enforcer of the peace agreement, if i understand correctly, would use their peacekeeping troops in defense of who ever is being attacked and against the aggressor?

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

Notice how Haaga tribunal is going to judge Karadjic, former Bosnian Serbs leader, for in princple the same thing that Saakashvili did in latest days.

But Saakashvili is presented as "rose of democracy" and chances for him ever going to tribunal are minimal -- becuase of political games. Ms.Rice went in talks with Saakashvili just days before he ordered troops to move on South-Ossetia. With Georgian army being trained and co-financed from USA it makes people wonder if Mr.Bush administration will stop with using people lives around the world for the sake of politics.

Will this ever stop if Mr.Obama would win elections in the USA? Under his rule, changes in the world could be amazing. USA is the single most powerful country in the world currently, and it could win international respect if methods of Mr.Obama's administration would change.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

friend: yes, Russia signed the agreement between Georgia and South-Ossetia in 1992 as guarantor. Whichever side starts to use force, Russia is obliged to stop it -- with force, too.

However, in this case the side who most probably could be potentially breaking peace agreement is Georgia, not South-Ossetia, since the latter never was trying to go on Tbilisi, Georgia's capital, take over it to rule there. They just wanted to be left alone and that is it.

 

[friend]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

thanks. well if it is as you suspect prompted by Rice's visit, or discussed there, then it would put US and Russia at war if US goes in as ally to Georgia... if this is what develops.

can't help but think it has to do with Obama's popularity and McCain not winning the hearts of Americans. With the election so close, people might not want to turn power over to someone inexperienced in military matters were we at war with Russia.

i know that's cynical... but i dont believe too far fetched.

 

[DenisRS]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

Mello1 mentioned "October surprise... In August" even before I said that Ms.Rice visited Georgia just few days before Saakashvili ordering troops go to South-Ossetia.

This is not necessary connected, but probable. Even without war with Russia (no one wants it in serious) when common Americans see how evil Russia "crushes young democracy" they might feel that Mr.MacCain is far more suited to handle such crisises than Mr.Obama.

Old school cold-war "hawks" can fit to counter the rising power of evil Russia much better, right? That is what Americans should think now.

 

[arXter]

Re: Richard Holbrooke finds the guilty of new war

Now Georgian civilians were killed by Russian's forces bombing of military bases and misfire on near buildings. Unfortunately, this was expected, because there is no war without casualties.

i'm not exactly sympathetic to the Georgian case because i think that escalating the war (and providing an excuse for Russian counter-escalation) was a damn stupid thing for Saakashvili to do. small, weak states living next to abrasive, unpredictable great powers need to be extremely careful about what they do; in most cases, their foreign policy should, first and foremost, be about avoiding war with the great power.

however, just as i share your discomfort with certain media bias, i'm also uncomforted by your own tone of bias, Denis, to somehow excuse Russia from this situation. Russia has consistently pursued imperial aims in its near abroad (so does every great power, including the US) and has treated Georgia badly, with a succession of threats, boycotts, and efforts to promote the secessionist forces which are a big part of the trouble today - i don't agree with your implying that Russia has no role here as is stated in this quote of yours:

Also, the title of the thread sounds too bold, since there is no way how Russia can be at war with Georgia, one just can not compare. Georgia is at war with South Ossetia and Russia promised to severely punish break of UNO resolution, what was attack on South Ossetia. Russia has UNO mandate for that.

but nonetheless, the casualties here are tragic and quite significant in context of a total population of only 70,000. a very silly mistake from Georgia, probably (and wrongly) in hope that using the Olympics would dampen the blow.

 

[friend]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

^ perhaps something strengthened their confidence this is something they could pull off, aside from the Olympics?

 

[arXter]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

as per the popular theories of neo-con must-win-at-all-cost and fear-mongering strategies? i wouldn't know nor would want to speculate on it in this very confusing and apparently muddled situation between Georgia and Russia.

my old man actually predicts a wage of war against Iran in preparation for and boosting of McCain; this is how far these anti-republican fears are going but i can't see how the US has the resources to go that far,,,

but in this case, anything is possible i suppose, if anyone remembers US/Ethiopia vs. Somalia in late 2006 (of which there was virtually zero coverage in the mainstream West).

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

another battle over oil pipelines bush will be upset

 

[friend]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

US doesnt have resources. they only have to present the face of it, so long that Georgia believes they have backing, and move on promises, and so long that Americans believe it long enough to vote in McCain, and then US pulls out to let whatever happen to happen. its not like we havent done it before. in first gulf war, we encouraged the citizens to rise up against sadam. they thought they had our backing, and they did rise up. then we pulled out and left them to their fate with Sadam. the oppression that followed, that we "liberated them from" 20 years later was due to Sadam suppressing any future thoughts of the people of rising up against him.

 

[arXter]

Re: New war: media brainwashing unfolds full-scale, Richard Holbrooke was just beginning

true enough, friend but Georgia must have known it'd suffer hard - surely!?

and funnily enough, sad actually, but the first two Gulf Wars also at the same time had the OK from Uncle Sam - the first one (Iran) was even bloody funded by the US. the second you can co-thank ambassador April Glaspie for the hints.