Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Diplomate]

The best verdict for this trial , would be the jury decide to give something like $15millions for the kids, 5 millions each, and nothing for KJ,cause we will see with the AEG arguments, who are FACTS, what KJ did against Mike before he died, and I want to see the face of KJ learning that, no money for the Jack$on$ but once again money for the MJ3 lol

 

[Big Apple2]

Putnam said at opening statements that Prince will testify that Michael was giving Murray $100 bills

Thanks ivy. I must have missed that part of Mr. Putnam's opening statements.

I was just wondering who might have been holding Murray down financially while he was waiting for his contract to be fully executed. I mean, I'm sure the "instrument" would not have been hanging around Murray unless he was providing for her and their newborn child. Somebody had to be paying her rent!

 

[Bubs]

MJ chose him .However, due to the amount of benzos MJ was being injected with he was no longer in a position to figure out what was Murray doing to him.It was the others responsibility . They had a duty to protect him .

Frank Delio asked Murray of all people to do drug tests on MJ, all of them thought highly of Murray , they believed him and later they blamed Michael for trusting him, not only blamed him for trusting him they say now MJ with or without Murray would have died .

The judge dismissed the claim duty of care and you assume that they know CM was pumping MJ full of benzos. So far nothing has come out during this trial that they knew what was going on with CM and MJ.

I see and hear people telling how they felt the situation, but I think MJ was too "big" to them to get involved and tell him to get help. To me it seemd like there was some sort of adulation going on from some people, and some people really didn't want to get involved with MJ's personal stuff.
Everybody is blaming someone else, and at the end no one did nothing and MJ slipped away, because no one wanted to take resposibility of MJ.


Just a reminder, at the end of the day: this is what is left to this trial:
Claim 2 - Negligent Hiring, Supervision and Training

AEG argues they did not hire Murray and could not foresee the risks Murray posed.

Judge states there are triable issues.

Judge states that even though the contract was not signed, a jury must decide if Murray and AEG had a oral or implied in fact contract. Communications, Murray's expenses being budgeted and so on is listed as evidence. Judge makes a note that Michael retaining services of Murray before AEG hired him could be a factor in determining proportional damages and liability.

AEG had argued that Murray was a licensed doctor and was not disciplined and Katherine argued they should have done a more detailed background check. Judge thinks this is a triable issue given that Gongaware had experience and knowledge about "tour doctors" and Michael's previous tours and "tour doctors".

Judge also thinks whether Murray's debt could have been a reason to foresee if such doctor under strong financial pressure may compromise his oath. This is another triable issue.

 

[Bubs]

Thanks ivy. I must have missed that part of Mr. Putnam's opening statements.

I was just wondering who might have been holding Murray down financially while he was waiting for his contract to be fully executed. I mean, I'm sure the "instrument" would not have been hanging around Murray unless he was providing for her and their newborn child. Somebody had to be paying her rent!

He did use his personal and company credit card and cheques to pay all the stuff he put into Michael, so he could have used the same method paying rent?
That is another thing that I'm sure AEG will bring on the table that CM purchased all the med himself and didn't send a bill to AEG. Then again, CM requested AEG to pay needles and stuff to UK, but all the meds were paid and kept separately from AEG.

 

[Big Apple2]

Just a reminder, at the end of the day: this is what is left to this trial:
Claim 2 - Negligent Hiring, Supervision and Training

AEG argues they did not hire Murray and could not foresee the risks Murray posed.

Judge states there are triable issues.

Judge states that even though the contract was not signed, a jury must decide if Murray and AEG had a oral or implied in fact contract. Communications, Murray's expenses being budgeted and so on is listed as evidence. Judge makes a note that Michael retaining services of Murray before AEG hired him could be a factor in determining proportional damages and liability.

AEG had argued that Murray was a licensed doctor and was not disciplined and Katherine argued they should have done a more detailed background check. Judge thinks this is a triable issue given that Gongaware had experience and knowledge about "tour doctors" and Michael's previous tours and "tour doctors".

Judge also thinks whether Murray's debt could have been a reason to foresee if such doctor under strong financial pressure may compromise his oath. This is another triable issue.

Thanks for posting the claims in question. I'm sure they have been posted before, but it's good to see them again, every now and then, so that we don't lose track of the triable issues.

On another note, I was just thinking about Karen Faye's testimony (you know the same lady that everybody is jealous of - LOL).

I was just wondering if Ms. Faye thought Michael was in trouble and AEG wasn't doing enough, why didn't she reach out to his family? Or maybe she was one of those people who didn't want to "rock the boat," per se.

Did she have a relationship with the family before Michael died? I know she spoke about having to feed Michael a bunch of bagels in order for him to sober up enough so that he could perform that night. Was the family aware of Karen's bagel therapy? (Did that take place during the 30 Anniversary Concert or was it another concert series.)

 

[Justthefacts]

The best verdict for this trial , would be the jury decide to give something like $15millions for the kids, 5 millions each, and nothing for KJ,cause we will see with the AEG arguments, who are FACTS, what KJ did against Mike before he died, and I want to see the face of KJ learning that, no money for the Jack$on$ but once again money for the MJ3 lol

Heart attack direct for KJ :rofl: and Ragu screaming " THIS IS NOT OVER! " :rofl:

Are you serious?

 

[loveforever]

^^They didn't, as the trial was about CM killing Michael, judge didn't allow all sort of nonsense to his court room.
If I remember correctly, the only way the question was allowed during CM trial when procecutor asked other expert witnesses would they had given propofol to their patient.
Judge P should take a leaf out of Partor's book, and keep it tight.

This is the civil case, not criminal case.

 

[Bubs]

"Thanks for posting the claims in question. I'm sure they have been posted before, but it's good to see them again, every now and then, so that we don't lose track of the triable issues."

I still wonder what LPM and Debbie's jealousy of Saint Karen has got to do with this hiring and supervising thing?
I think judge herself is lost about what this trial is about already, and we ain't seen much yet.

After re-reading the last claim, I think I know why plaintiffs has so many useless witnesses, they will drag and drag this trial as long as possible so they get many many hours to their billing, and hoping AEG get fed up with drag and take the settlement Jackson's are offering.


"I was just wondering if Ms. Faye thought Michael was in trouble and AEG wasn't doing enough, why didn't she reach out to his family? Or maybe she was one of those people who didn't want to "rock the boat," per se."

Saint Karen offered safe haven to Michael and she says she didn't want anything to distub MJ's safe haven. She saw Kenny feeding Michael, but we didn't hear anything she did to help MJ, not even offering water despite wasn't she responsible of keeping MJ hydrated? If anyone is freak, imho it is Saint Karen, as well as hypocrite.

"Did she have a relationship with the family before Michael died? I know she spoke about having to feed Michael a bunch of bagels in order for him to sober up enough so that he could perform that night. Was the family aware of Karen's bagel therapy? (Did that take place during the 30 Anniversary Concert or was it another concert series.)"

Bagel therapy Saint Karen tried to choke MJ before MSG concert.
In her mind it wasn't pushing MJ because she doesn't do that, it is only others. Also she thinks Randy and Rebbie tried to help MJ:bugeyed Yes, help him get rid of his money if anything.

 

[bouee]

First of all let me remind you that it's law of the case that Murray was at most an independent contractor. I don't think supervising him is a possibility.

What would be the difference in this case, between employee or independent contractors ? My understanding based from my own experience with independent contractors - not in the US though- you don't directly supervise them, but if you're not happy with their services you stop using them, or you re negociate the services ?

Secondly all of those emails are shown to argue "AEG knew or should have known" , yes there were some warnings but nothing that said Propofol. Most of the emails such as the latest one we heard from stage manager Houghdal / Bugsy said "he needs a shrink". It looks like most of the time they thought the problem was psychological. They weren't aware of drugs and this is shown by emails that said "I don't if it's psychological or chemical" or Branca asking "do we know substance involved" or Dileo saying to Murray "give him a test find out what he's taking". As AEG's lawyer asked Michael did not die from being thin or being paranoid.

The judge dismissed the claim duty of care and you assume that they know CM was pumping MJ full of benzos. So far nothing has come out during this trial that they knew what was going on with CM and MJ.

My problem with this is AEG was not supposed to assume anything. No, they didn't know it was propofol, they didn't know if it was chemical or psychological, and they could not know Michael would die as a result, I agree with this. No one is saying they should have guessed, Jacksons are saying that drugs should have been considered. And according to those e mails, they were, Phillips, maybe others, ruled it out thinking it was psychological. It was NOT his call.
AEG were aware there was a problem. And that problem started and got much worse, it became apparent on several occasions, not just once, and it all happened under Murray's care, Michael was much better before Murray came into the picture, and didn't show all those weird symptoms.
That should have been enough for them to at least, stay out of it, stop negociating with Murray, and let Michael deal with him through a cash advance. I say this from AEG's point of view, to protect themselves.

Third I agree with Trell and Hom, and say that it's okay to ask a doctor in general terms. I have had experiences when coaches ask the doctors when the player can play, or at work place employers asking doctors when the person can come to work, what can they do, what are the limitations and so on, even the diagnosis. BUT don't and can't ask the details of the treatment. In other words I don't see any problems with asking and a doctor telling "she has hurt her ankle, can't play for 2 weeks" without any specifics. (My BF volunteers as a coach and he asks and is told such information). It's no different that insurance doctor saying "other than hay fever he passed with flying colors" and not provide any specifics. So I don't see why it would be a problem for Phillips to ask Murray "is he okay, can he perform?" and Murray replying "yes he can" or "no he needs time off". As long as they don't go into specifics and keep it at the bare minimum it should be okay.

Yes, but they did not leave it at that. They had a strong reaction when Murray supposedly told Michael not to go to rehearsal - Ortega's reaction sounds very different to Gongaware's reaction- they had meetings with Murray, and it sounds like his job was to get Michael to rehearsal no matter what, and that came from AEG. Asking is OK, I agree, so they could re organise the rehearsals, postpone the shows or whatever they would have needed to do. But they went further than just asking. Instead of staying out of it, they used Murray... they ended up treating him like Ortega or any other independent contractor on the show.

Putnam said at opening statements that Prince will testify that Michael was giving Murray $100 bills

He did use his personal and company credit card and cheques to pay all the stuff he put into Michael, so he could have used the same method paying rent?
That is another thing that I'm sure AEG will bring on the table that CM purchased all the med himself and didn't send a bill to AEG. Then again, CM requested AEG to pay needles and stuff to UK, but all the meds were paid and kept separately from AEG.

Isn't the patient supposed to pay for the meds himself ?

 

[Bubs]

This is the civil case, not criminal case.

?

I know this is civil trial and civil trial have more freedom than criminal, but seriously when I look at testimonies this far, the judge could have got rid of at least half of the witnesses and half the length of the trial.

+ judge should have ordered all the bank holidays cancelled, and no breaks, and get on with trial.
This is impatient me talking

Isn't the patient supposed to pay for the meds himself ?

I don't know what is the practice on that?
I just assumed that as AEG said in they opening speech that MJ was secretive with his drugs (something like that), I though AEG might use CM ordering and paying meds outside of company to show that they didn't know what was going on and CM and MJ did it on purpose, just a thought.

From yesterdays testimony:
AEG recross
Jessica Bina did re-cross of Trell, who said Dr. Murray's agreement required medical licenses both here in the US and in the UK. He also needed proof of insurance, Trell said. If Dr. Murray didn't provide them, there were grounds for termination of services. Bina: Did AEG Live ever provided him with medical equipments? Trell: No. Two reasons: the agreement never went into the effect. And had it come to existence, Trell said, the equipment would've been provided in London. Equipment requested: CPR machine, saline, catheters, needles, gurney and other mutually approved medical equipment necessary 4 the Services

and this:
Trell said AEG Live never supplied any equipment or paid for any drugs given to MJ.

AEG either knew or didn't, we'll see if plaintiffs attorney can bring out something new on the table. But by looking at the equipment CM requested, it doesn't say to layman that he is or was going to drug MJ. Needles etc could have been and most likely were for hydration, I think?

 

[Diplomate]

Are you serious?

Yes, always.

By the way, if there is an appeal at the end , the next trial will be for next year or just few weeks later the first verdict?

 

[Big Apple2]

From yesterdays testimony:
AEG recross
Jessica Bina did re-cross of Trell, who said Dr. Murray's agreement required medical licenses both here in the US and in the UK. He also needed proof of insurance, Trell said. If Dr. Murray didn't provide them, there were grounds for termination of services.

Man, I have to ask - AGAIN - was Murray even going to be making this trip.

He had more than a few things to do in order to be ready for this trip to London, namely getting that permit to practice in London.

He ALSO needed proof of insurance. So my new question is, would his United States medical insurance cover his practicing medicine in the UK or would he need to apply for DIFFERENT medical insurance to cover practicing medicine outside of the USA?

In any event, Murray's list of "Things-To-Do" was very long, in my opinion.

 

[serendipity]

I have a feeling that there will be some email exchanges which address the fact the Murray was asking for too much money.

Apparently they did show a document where Randy Phillips objected to the 150K as well, but MJ insisted. Here's the quote from the article:

He confirmed that Murray's contract with AEG was never signed and identified documents showing that Phillips objected to hiring the doctor for $150,000 a month, but "Michael insisted."

 

[Big Apple2]

By the way, if there is an appeal at the end , the next trial will be for next year or just few weeks later the first verdict?

I'm not sure, but I can say that Anne Nicole Smith's appeal (claiming the money her husband left her) took years, and years, AND YEARS. It might still be going on, I'm not sure.

 

[bouee]

?

I Trell said, the equipment would've been provided in London. Equipment requested: CPR machine, saline, catheters, needles, gurney and other mutually approved medical equipment necessary 4 the Services

and this:
Trell said AEG Live never supplied any equipment or paid for any drugs given to MJ.

AEG either knew or didn't, we'll see if plaintiffs attorney can bring out something new on the table. But by looking at the equipment CM requested, it doesn't say to layman that he is or was going to drug MJ. Needles etc could have been and most likely were for hydration, I think?

I wouldn't expect AEG , or anyone for that matter, to guess anything from that medical equipment. It sounds fairly general , or emergency related.

As for meds, i wouldn't expect a doctor to ask AEG for medication payment, it would be a violation of privacy. Meds are either taken from his (huge) fee, or paid by the patient. generally speaking, not in this case of course, the patient can then get the money back for the meds from his/her health insurance.

 

[Annita]

I think all the e-mails that we got to see up to now about Michaels bad health(including the fan-letter from Faye to Dileo)are from June 19th and 20th. It is really the culmination of the situation after Michaels reharsal on June19th. Exception 1 email from Ortega on June 14th, when he proposes to include nutritionist and physiotherapist and wrote not to underestimate Michaels stress at age of 50 and he proposes to involve his doctor ) and the mail from Bearden to Ortega, who describes Michaels voice in good shape and is optimistic that MJ is in the course of the Tour and will dance and sing all the songs when the tour goes further (currently partially playback).

 

[Diplomate]

I'm not sure, but I can say that Anne Nicole Smith's appeal (claiming the money her husband left her) took years, and years, AND YEARS. It might still be going on, I'm not sure.

Didn't think it would be so long. Not sure the Jacksons will be able to pay their 8 or 10 lawyers so long.

 

[Bubs]

I wouldn't expect AEG , or anyone for that matter, to guess anything from that medical equipment. It sounds fairly general , or emergency related.

As for meds, i wouldn't expect a doctor to ask AEG for medication payment, it would be a violation of privacy. Meds are either taken from his (huge) fee, or paid by the patient. generally speaking, not in this case of course, the patient can then get the money back for the meds from his/her health insurance.

Maybe the money MJ told to Prince to give CM was for meds then?

 

[Big Apple2]

Maybe the money MJ told to Prince to give CM was for meds then?

LOL! Bubs, you beat me to it.

I was just thinking the very same thing. I mean, even if Murray was using his credit card and/or any line of credit he may have had through his various clinics, somebody would still have to pay for those bills once they came in. Some of the money Prince gave to Murray could have been used for that as well as Murray and the instruments living expenses. We all know that Michael was a very generous fellow, especially if he liked you.

On a side note: Prince giving that type of testimony during his deposition, "could" be one of the reasons Mother's attorney wanted to end Prince's deposition by saying they were being too rough with Prince (Remember that?). LOL! I don't think anybody was supposed to know that Michael "may" have been giving Murray money on the side.

 

[Annita]

Didn`t Prince say Murray refused to take the money?

 

[bouee]

I think all the e-mails that we got to see up to now about Michaels bad health(including the fan-letter from Faye to Dileo)are from June 19th and 20th. It is really the culmination of the situation after Michaels reharsal on June19th. Exception 1 email from Ortega on June 14th, when he proposes to include nutritionist and physiotherapist and wrote not to underestimate Michaels stress at age of 50 and he proposes to involve his doctor ) and the mail from Bearden to Ortega, who describes Michaels voice in good shape and is optimistic that MJ is in the course of the Tour and will dance and sing all the songs when the tour goes further (currently partially playback).

Yes, irt was gradual , I'll try to do a timeline

- overall Michael was thin, and kept losing weight (DiLeo got that information, I'm not sure who else)

-stopped going to rehearsal , early June (sankey testimony is clear about this). from another testimony (I'm not sure which one, Travis ? ) it was the moment when Michael was supposed to start rehearsing on stage with the others. Michael was asked (meeting ? ) to come back to rehearsals, he did after a few days.

-mid june, 13th or 14th, MAW calls someone (ortega ?), to say that Michael would not go to rehearsal one day , on doctors orders. Ortega informs Gongaware by e mail, Gongaware replies with the "we- frank and him- have requested a meeting with Murray, hopefully tomorrow, we want to remind him who's paying his salary and what is expected of him". Ortega answers with a different point of view, explaining Michael has been slow..and needs help, he suggests a physical therapist and a nutritionnist.

- I think it's safe to say that Michael started being cold all the time the last week, so around 17th/18th, though that's not clear yet.

- June 19th is the culmination. With all those e mails (ortega, Branca, phillips, Houghdal, etcc) And Phillip's e mail to Leiweke " we have a huge problem here"

It would be interesting to try and sort them out, to find out who was informed of what and when.

 

[loveforever]

Yes, Murray refused the money and said let AEG pay him.

 

[Big Apple2]

Ortega informs Gongaware by e mail, Gongaware replies with the "we- frank and him- have requested a meeting with Murray, hopefully tomorrow, we want to remind him who's paying his salary and what is expected of him". Ortega answers with a different point of view, explaining Michael has been slow..and needs help, he suggests a physical therapist and a nutritionnist.

Gongaware making that comment is so weird, because as we now know, NOBODY was paying Murray for services rendered. So for Gongaware to make that statement is incorrect.

On another note, did Travis Payne testify as to "somebody" coming in to help Michael, some type of specialist, can't remember what type of specialist, but at the last minute Michael changed his mind, saying something like he didn't want his personal space invaded (or words to that effect). Does anybody remember that, or am I confusing the situation with something else?

 

[Big Apple2]

Didn`t Prince say Murray refused to take the money?

If I recall correctly, it was Paris who said that her father had given her money to give to Murray, but Murray refused it.

I "think" it was different instances. Maybe ivy or somebody else can clear that up for us.

 

[Bubs]

Apparently they did show a document where Randy Phillips objected to the 150K as well, but MJ insisted. Here's the quote from the article:

and Gonga objected too and said to forget him, but he got phone call from MJ's assistant and MJ told him to offer $150 K

Man, I have to ask - AGAIN - was Murray even going to be making this trip.

He had more than a few things to do in order to be ready for this trip to London, namely getting that permit to practice in London.

He ALSO needed proof of insurance. So my new question is, would his United States medical insurance cover his practicing medicine in the UK or would he need to apply for DIFFERENT medical insurance to cover practicing medicine outside of the USA?

In any event, Murray's list of "Things-To-Do" was very long, in my opinion.

At least he had his first class flight sorted out as well his requirements for soft mattresses. He had his priorities right:angry:
God, I start to see red when I'm thinking of him, this trial puts aside his obvious guilt and Jackson's are pushing guilt on AEG because of the money they expecting to get.

I don't think we ever get an answer for that. CM trial didn't bring out his actions other than his lack of actions after he left MJ on him own and went to talk to his various gf"s, and I doubt this trial isn't going to bring anything out either.

 

[bouee]

Gongaware making that comment is so weird, because as we now know, NOBODY was paying Murray for services rendered. So for Gongaware to make that statement is incorrect.

On another note, did Travis Payne testify as to "somebody" coming in to help Michael, some type of specialist, can't remember what type of specialist, but at the last minute Michael changed his mind, saying something like he didn't want his personal space invaded (or words to that effect). Does anybody remember that, or am I confusing the situation with something else?

Gongaware was maybe not aware of the several drafts of Murray's contract , It's clear to me that AEG would pay him eventually (from their budget), they did not have the intention of blocking his salary until Michael died.

No, you didn't dream it, Travis said Michael was not comfortable with a physical therapist. Travis said they had found one in Utah.

 

[bouee]

seeing the timeline, I think the tough love was decided on the mid june meeting. Since Ortgea is referencing it in hi june 19th e mail

 

[Bubs]

If I recall correctly, it was Paris who said that her father had given her money to give to Murray, but Murray refused it.

I "think" it was different instances. Maybe ivy or somebody else can clear that up for us.

From Ivy's summaries:
- Paris saying Michael once told her to give money to Murray but he refused. Murray refusing to take money from Michael.

Did MJ told both of the kids to give money to CM?

 

[Bubs]

I'm reading summaries and came accross this one, related to tough love thing?

Phillips says he first met Murray at an early June meeting at Michael's home. He says that he spoke to Murray 2 -3 times and it was about the concerns raised by tour staff about Michael's attendance, nutrition and stamina. He says both Murray and Michael assured him that Michael was in good health. Phillips says he also mentioned Murray that Michael seemed sedated after seeing Klein.

Phillips says his last meeting with Murray was on June 20 - and it was requested by Dileo. He says Michael, Murray and Ortega was at this meeting. Murray tells them that Michael is in perfect health - so does Michael. Murray tells them not to discourage Michael from performing and bluntly tells them leave the medical care to him and focus on the tour. Michael and Ortega comes to an agreement about rehearsal schedule they are both happy with. Phillips says Michael never told him he needed medical care or he wanted the tour to be postponed.

CM told them not to discourage MJ from performing?
This to me tells that people were starting to raise voices about MJ's health, and then CM tells everyone to do they own job, he does his.

 

[Big Apple2]

CM told them not to discourage MJ from performing?
This to me tells that people were starting to raise voices about MJ's health, and then CM tells everyone to do they own job, he does his.

Was that the same time Michael said: "I know you're worried about me, but I'm fine."

I don't recall when Michael made that statement, but it confirms that Michael, himself, was aware that "some" folks were concerned about him, in my opinion.