Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

yeah it could help aeg. no doubt they might use it to show sneaky mj! but i mention the family first as they are the ones who started all the d.a talk and are trying to make it look like mj had p.k issues for decades in order to help their suit. thats why i say they act like murray trying to divert from his actions and diprivan and divert it to p.k as then the family can say u should have known. easier to say u should have known if u are trying to make a connection between what happened to mj and p.k rather than diprivan which no one knew about

Yes, and there will be no Walgren, and this theory could help AEG too, depending on how AEG wants to use demerol (visits to Klein behind Murray's back).

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

but theres no evidence mj had any issues with p.k until 93

The problem is MJ himself said he took the painkillers b/c of the surgeries on his scalp to repair the burned area (in his statement re cancelling the Dangerous tour and going into rehab). That's probably why they are going back to the Pepsi burn incident. I think it's documented all the scalp surgeries to try and reduce the size of the burned area and get his hair to grow back and I think he had had one prior to going back on tour in August 93.

 

[jamba]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

So in short he was a healthy and functioning addict who obviously looked like he was on his deathbed. oxymoron? ivy

Yes, he was a walking, talking, singing, dancing, touring til age 90, billionaire, doctor-shopping, emaciated, end-stage drug addict!

 

[jamba]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

but theres no evidence mj had any issues with p.k until 93

Not yet. But I am guessing it could be forthcoming.

In my comment before I am saying MJ himself linked the p.k. dependency with the burn as the cause. So who knows how it developed from 84 to 93--obviously, by 93 it was a problem, but it is unclear when it got out of hand--or did it? Was what he said in 93 accurate or was it a believable way PR-wise to cancel the tour without talking about how the allegations were affecting him, insomnia, anxiety, inability to perform? Was the real reason he canceled the tour the p.k. issue or the havoc the allegations were wreaking on him mentally and physically? IMO the allegations had a lot to do with it.

 

[serendipity]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

It's AEG that are being tried.

But MJ is the one being picked apart, dissected and over analyzed.

 

[Vici]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Its a heartbreaking read. It just needed so little to be done to save MJ; open an airway in time.

I keep on remembering what Dr Shafer said about saving him... "A simple chin lift"

 

[marebear]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

It doesn't feel like AEG is on trial at all.

 

[la_cienega]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

It doesn't feel like AEG is on trial at all.

I don't see anything damaging for AEG besides the fact that they are all too fine to trash someone they hired.

But they're a business, "loved" ones doing it to someone who spent so much of his life so unloved and degraded is much worst.

 

[qbee]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Once the Jackson's are done presenting all of Michael's medical issues and how Murray killed Michael. The Drs will be done testifying. Then Witnesses to testify against AEG will be called. Right now Dr Murray is being Scrutenised to set up how terrible he was and then they will focus on trying to prove how terrible AEG was and that they are the ones that hired Murray. So you will see AEG on Trial. Then it will be Time for AEG to present their defense against the Jackson's accusations.

 

[marebear]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

AEG is not getting any negative headlines or the Jacksons. It's just Michael. I see it everyday. I went to the Cirque thread just to see something positive about Michael. It's hard.

 

[Ashtanga]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

:no: *big sigh*





It's so sad to see how far is going this trial. AGAIN the tabloids are loving all this informations to use them to denigrate Michael somehow. I have read so many depressing things about Michael uke: ..... Thanks Jackson Family! :clapping: uke: errin:



NOW I do not care about what Michael had or did not have on his body... We have had enough in the trial of Murray and is very sad to have to look at this again. I just do not want! NOW I just want Michael to be left in peace. But is that one day will leave Michael alone? MAYBE someday.... *big sigh*

 

[Petrarose]

I find it interesting that no one is pointing out that Rogers said that there were NO DRUGS-street or otherwise- in Michael's body EXCEPT what the MURDERER, Conrad Murray INJECTED into him. I don't care about the "lupus" statement. The MORE important FACT that needs to be SPREAD to the media and everywhere else is that Michael was NOT an addict. The media seems to WANT Michael to be an "addict" and conveniently IGNORES what Rogers testified to. This"message" needs to be tweeted, e-mailed to the media. gossip whores like Friedman and others.

We have pointed it out before after Rogers gave the same evidence in the Muarry trial. Notice that after Rogers said this that the next witness, dr W, who testified on Tuesday said according to this report: "LOS ANGELES (AP) — Michael Jackson's doctor was not qualified to treat the singer for insomnia or drug addiction and botched resuscitation efforts, an expert cardiologist testifying for the singer's mother told a jury Tuesday.

So which drug addiction are they talking about here^^? The one from the dangerous tour that came from the Pepsi burn (according to opening statements)? Then you have the various reports in the document thread all repeating this doctor's statement and talking about Michal's long term drug addiction. Now what exactly was Michael addicted to when he died, or what addiction was Muarry supposed to be helping Michael with to cause Dr. W to make that statement, I do not know. The jury does not know either. Of course he is Katherine's attorney so I guess he has to throw that in to help her case in some way.

We have Rogers stating he was healthy and would have lived a long life if prof did not kill him, which one reporter claims is good for Katherine because it shows he would live long and make a lot of money. However, look at how the family case still push the drug addiction, which might limit one's lifespan.

It seems they want to have it both ways: On one hand, a healthy Michael who would have lived long to make mega bucks, so they could get billions from AEG. On the other hand a drug addicted Michael to claim that AEG should have been suspicious of Muarry and know he would give Michael drugs because Muarry needed money, and addicted Michael under stress by AEG, would seek prof. Somehow this whole case is a disgrace.

 

[PrɛttyღBµʈʈɇrƒℓу]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

To me, the content of the testimony of cardiologist became obvious now that Murray demonstrated amply their incompetence.

 

[Petrarose]

It is interesting that a doctor is commenting about the contract though. Here are some of Dr. W statements which he claims are red flags:

Wohlgelernter said the fact that Dr. Conrad Murray, a cardiologist, shut his practice to care only for Jackson, who had no history of heart problems, “that to me is a red flag,” Wohlgelernter said. He asked why Murray would “leave what he was doing for a patient who doesn’t need his services?”

The witness also said that Murray’s request for a CPR machine, written into his contract, a device used when patients undergo heart surgery, should have raised questions.

“What is this doctor planning to do?” Wohlgelernter asked. “What are his treatment plans in taking care of Michael Jackson?”

Another warning, he said, was Jackson’s request for Murray, considering the singer’s background with drug use.

“It’s a red flag to the extent that Michael Jackson has a history of substance abuse and addiction that he specifically is requesting a given doctor who has no training in any of those areas.… What is the nature of this relationship? Why do these two want each other?”


Wohlgelernter also said he was troubled by a section of Murray’s contract that said the doctor was to “Perform the Services reasonably requested by the Producer,” which was AEG.

That meant Murray was “responsible and accountable to a third party, namely AEG Live,” Wohlgelernter said, not his patient, leading to a conflict of interest.

The cardiologist said he is paid $4,250 for half a day of expert testimony and $450 an hour to prepare for testifying.


I don't know how much of this would be a red flag to AEG. All they know is that Michael chose his dr. They are not going to ask what the 2 want from each other or whether Muarry can treat drug addiction. Muarry had to leave his practice to go to London, unless he was able to find someone to take over for him while he was gone. Maybe Dr. W feels Michael should have gotten an unemployed dr. Any person who would make more money working for a star would leave their current position & go work with the star.

Experts get paid a lot of money, & they tend to say what the paying side wants. I would like to know what documents the expert looked at to show Michael had a history of substance abuse & addiction. I guess there were none, and that he was simply told that information by Katherine's side. Here is a dr. who gets $4000 + of Michael's money to trash Michael.

 

[Tygger]

I will simply agree to disagree regarding the children's participation in the trial, if Michael's mother was pressured by her children to pursue the trial, Simpson, the Goldmans, justice, and restitution.

The testimony of Dr. Wohlgelernter made me that happy. A great day for the plaintiffs.

Exclude Jacksons expert Dr. Wohlgelernter (opinion 2) - Denied

Judge says Jacksons expert can testify that the equipment request by Murray was unconventional (red flag) for a 50 year old man with no heart disease. Judge says AEG’s expert can argue that the equipment request was for dehydration. Judge points out the jury will decide on what the reason for the equipment was and what AEG known or should have known about the request.

The witness also said that Murray’s request for a CPR machine, written into his contract, a device used when patients undergo heart surgery, should have raised questions. “What is this doctor planning to do?” Wohlgelernter asked. “What are his treatment plans in taking care of Michael Jackson?”(LATimes)

It seems the defendants' lawyer did attempt to address the use of the CPR machine but, we shall see what the jury decides.

 

[jamba]

It is interesting that a doctor is commenting about the contract though. Here are some of Dr. W statements which he claims are red flags:

Wohlgelernter said the fact that Dr. Conrad Murray, a cardiologist, shut his practice to care only for Jackson, who had no history of heart problems, “that to me is a red flag,” Wohlgelernter said. He asked why Murray would “leave what he was doing for a patient who doesn’t need his services?”

The witness also said that Murray’s request for a CPR machine, written into his contract, a device used when patients undergo heart surgery, should have raised questions.

“What is this doctor planning to do?” Wohlgelernter asked. “What are his treatment plans in taking care of Michael Jackson?”

Another warning, he said, was Jackson’s request for Murray, considering the singer’s background with drug use.

“It’s a red flag to the extent that Michael Jackson has a history of substance abuse and addiction that he specifically is requesting a given doctor who has no training in any of those areas.… What is the nature of this relationship? Why do these two want each other?”


Wohlgelernter also said he was troubled by a section of Murray’s contract that said the doctor was to “Perform the Services reasonably requested by the Producer,” which was AEG.

That meant Murray was “responsible and accountable to a third party, namely AEG Live,” Wohlgelernter said, not his patient, leading to a conflict of interest.

The cardiologist said he is paid $4,250 for half a day of expert testimony and $450 an hour to prepare for testifying.


I don't know how much of this would be a red flag to AEG. All they know is that Michael chose his dr. They are not going to ask what the 2 want from each other or whether Muarry can treat drug addiction. Muarry had to leave his practice to go to London, unless he was able to find someone to take over for him while he was gone. Maybe Dr. W feels Michael should have gotten an unemployed dr. Any person who would make more money working for a star would leave their current position & go work with the star.

Experts get paid a lot of money, & they tend to say what the paying side wants. I would like to know what documents the expert looked at to show Michael had a history of substance abuse & addiction. I guess there were none, and that he was simply told that information by Katherine's side. Here is a dr. who gets $4000 + of Michael's money to trash Michael.

red flags: "why would a doctor leave his patients for someone who doesn't need his services"? Obviously MJ did need his services, insofar as he thought he needed a doctor to go on tour with him and he knew, trusted, liked CM. MJ would often get dehydrated and there are documented examples of that, so that could be a reason he wanted a doctor with him when he did 50 strenuous performances at age 50 in closely spaced concerts.

red flag: Why does CM want a CPR machine? AEG did question him about that, so they picked up on it, but CM gave them an answer that they accepted. This shows actually that AEG did not want MJ to have a heart attack and die and were willing to buy the equipment requested by CM. Maybe CM planned to use the machine in one of his clinics after the tour?

red flag: MJ's history of substance abuse and addiction. I thought this history had yet to be established by facts except for the 1993 rehab? How is what happened in 93 a history? It's an event, not a history, as far as has been established.

red flag: CM is to perform services reasonably requested by producer. What were the services? Doesn't that need discussion? Was it specified in the contract what they were? or in conversations? Was he supposed to make the costumes or what?

 

[bouee]

Just a few thoughts :

- I agree with you Petrarose that it is strange for this doctor to talk about Michael's addiction. Has he met Michael ? Without the transcript, it's hard to have an opnion about what he said, it could have been the way the question was asked. For example : is a cardiologist trained to treat addiction and insomnia ?. AEG could easily impeach Dr W, asking him what his opinion was based on. It doesn't look like AEG said that.
As a cardiologist, I think Dr W testified mostly to what a cardiologist can or can not do, and how incompetent Murray was.

- a "history" of addiction : what does "history" mean in this context ? does it mean that it happened maybe once or twice in the past, and not necessarily that addiction is still present ? Since it happened, a doctor would want to know, it's part of the patient's medical history. At least in French that's how I think it would be understood in a medical file: it would only mean it happened, you wouldn't know if it's a ongoing issue.

- A lot of red flags dr W points out would be red flags for doctors, not necessarily for someone who is not a medical person. (Salary, CPR machine, cardiologist for someone who has no heart problem- a cardiologist is still a doctor - )

- No one, not even Michael, would have guessed how incompetent Murray is. I understand it's necessary to point out Murray's incompetence, but the Jacksons will have to show that AEG put an extraordinary pressure on Murray for that argument to help them. Otherwise I think it will help AEG : they could not have guessed.

- "Wohlgelernter also said he was troubled by a section of Murray’s contract that said the doctor was to “Perform the Services reasonably requested by the Producer,” which was AEG. That meant Murray was “responsible and accountable to a third party, namely AEG Live,” Wohlgelernter said, not his patient, leading to a conflict of interest. (LATimes)" If true, that could be a problem for AEG. It's probably a standard contract, and AEG probably doesn't usually sign contract with doctors. There is the word "reasonably", and personnally, given the nature of a doctor's job, I can't see what a conflict of interest would be : a doctor puts his patient first, in any circumstances. But it's a base to argue AEG pressured Murray. If AEG's lawyer only answer is that the contract was not signed by AEG, it sounds a little weak to me.

-Apparently, there is nothing about the end of Christopher's testimony. Do we know if he finished his testimony ? EDIT : I see from the news thread that Christopher will be testifying today. That answers my question.

Thanks again Ivy, you are very very helpful.

 

[Petrarose]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Jamba ^^I agree. I see no RED in these red flags. Simply presenting a string of experts to claim red flags in front of the jury without any solid evidence is not going to make a jury see AEG as liable. All the jury knows for a fact right now is that Muarry was negligent, because the Coroner & Anderson showed that in court. Notice that Dr. W testimony deals with the idea that Michael should only need a doctor for ONE reason: His drug addiction & substance abuse, since Michael did not need a heart dr. So I guess you can't have a dr with you just to look after your general health. Then, why use Dr. W when Shaffer is the best. Notice that Shaffer kept to the facts when making his opinions where as Dr. W brings in addictions that have not been presented with any factual data.

Boure Good points. Yes I would like to see if AEG cross-examined Dr. W about that contract aspect, but then Dr. W is not an expert in contracts so why did he bring up that point if he was discussing red flags? This shows that his is looking for something that would help the family rather than him simply giving an unbiased expert opinion on Muarry's doctoring & possible red flags.

 

[bouee]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Jamba

Boure Good points. Yes I would like to see if AEG cross-examined Dr. W about that contract aspect, but then Dr. W is not an expert in contracts so why did he bring up that point if he was discussing red flags? This shows that his is looking for something that would help the family rather than him simply giving an unbiased expert opinion on Muarry's doctoring & possible red flags.

I have stopped believing that this trial is about the truth, from a medical point of view at least. There is no David Walgren to get the parties to keep a certain balance. It's between the Jacksons and AEG, none of them knew Michael's whole medical history, they just take what they want from it, and twist it to make it fit their agenda. That's a shame, there should be a lawyer, like a third party, to represent Michael.

This trial will maybe bring new info about the circumstances, I think that's all we can expect from it.

 

[Bubs]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

It seems the defendants' lawyer did attempt to address the use of the CPR machine but, we shall see what the jury decides.

From CM trial:
Kathy Jorrie had a conversation on Jun 18th with CM about medical equipment needed to be included as a provision in the contract. KJ wanted to know why he needed this equipment including a CPR machine. CM said when MJ was performing at the O2 arena he was going to be performing extraordinary things. Also considering his age, CM wanted the machine. KJ asked wouldn't this be at the arena? CM told her he didn't want to take any chances. KJ was worried MJ might have a heart problem or was unhealthy. CM assured her he was healthy. CM told KJ three times that MJ was in perfect health.

Also I might add that at least this side of the pond, CPR machine is standard first aid equipment in big arena's and sports centers as anything can happen and help is needed fast, so
I would not call it red flag if CM requested personal CPR machine to MJ.

 

[Bubs]

Wohlgelernter said Murray did not have the appropriate training to serve as Jackson's physician for the "This Is It" tour, which was expected to relaunch the pop star’s career.

Instead of a cardiologist like Murray, the expert witness said that Jackson needed a doctor who was trained in addiction medicine, substance abuse and sleep disorders.

Since Jackson had no evidence of heart disease, Murray was not an appropriate choice to treat him, the witness said.

Wohlgelernter called Murray's treating of Jackson “a mismatch. It’s not what he needs.”

Wohlgelernter said Jackson "was not fit and competent in so far as he administered medications he was not trained and credentialed to administer and administered them in a whole unsatisfactory environment."
----------------------------------------------------

and AEG should have hired a doctor who could treat Michael's addiction, substance abuse and sleep issues during his concerts :scratch:
That is insane and he is reaching now. I wonder if AEG has done full health check/drug test on members of Rolling Stones (AEG is their tour promoter), and checked if the doctor is gualified to treat them for their addictions, and not for their general health?

---------------------------------------------------------------
AEG attorney Kathryn Cahan did ask Dr. W. if the company could have asked Murray about Jackson's medical conditions.
Dr. Wohlgelernter said they couldn't have because of HIPPA, the medical privacy law.

We know CM repeatedly said Michael was ok and so did Michael himself. So AEG should have seen something that MJ and CM denied being there?

 

[Tygger]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Bubs, Jorrie expressed concern about the doctor's request during the criminal trial. Although this was considered a concern or red flag in the criminal trial, it should not be a concern or red flag in the civil trial, correct?

 

[Emma-Dutchie]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Its a heartbreaking read. It just needed so little to be done to save MJ; open an airway in time.

I keep on remembering what Dr Shafer said about saving him... "A simple chin lift"

I know :-( I always thinks of those words when i'm hearing or reading about the circumstances of Michael's passing. It's so terribly sad...Michael could have been alive and well today :-(

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Maybe im missing something but what exactly was mj addicted to when the murray was been hired and the time upto june. cause theres no evidence of any. these witnesses are ridiculous its like they are scripted

 

[bouee]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Bubs, Jorrie expressed concern about the doctor's request during the criminal trial. Although this was considered a concern or red flag in the criminal trial, it should not be a concern or red flag in the civil trial, correct?

Jorrie got an answer from Murray, that was probably satisfactory for non medical persons.

 

[Diplomate]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

I just can't believe some fans are still defending the Jack$on$.... unbelievable. If you saw the tweet of Yashi Brown last week end, it was funny, the Jack$on$ will lie about money,lie about the health of Michael, just to win some easy money. Poor Mike.

 

[LastTear]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Maybe im missing something but what exactly was mj addicted to when the murray was been hired and the time upto june. cause theres no evidence of any. these witnesses are ridiculous its like they are scripted

According to Murray, Demerol. He is using it as his appeal.

 

[StellaJackson]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Maybe im missing something but what exactly was mj addicted to when the murray was been hired and the time upto june. cause theres no evidence of any. these witnesses are ridiculous its like they are scripted

Demerol. There wouldn't likely be any evidence as it dissippates from the system very quickly. The multiple visits to Klein were supposedly for this.

 

[bouee]

Re: Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG (daily threads merged)

Demerol. There wouldn't likely be any evidence as it dissippates from the system very quickly. The multiple visits to Klein were supposedly for this.

The visits to Klein were for cosmetic procedures. They were too irregular to create an addiction to demerol. There was no painkiller whatsoever in Michael's house.

 

[Bubs]

I know Arnie Klein has lost his plot but it is undeniable that he once was the best in Holliwood in his field.
I agree with bouee, those visits were for cosmetic procedures. If Michael only wanted Demerol and went to visit to Klein to get it, why bother with cosmetic surgeries at the same time?
I'm sure in Hollywood you could get anything you like, there is enough docs to do what ever people want at the right money.

This is what Arnie wrote recently:
When I walked in the room to see Micheal after he came to Los Angeles from Las Vegas I wanted to hug him but I was stunned. He had lost a tremendous amount of weight and the acne scars and lupus scars were visible. He had totally lost the cleft in his chin and the surface of his face was not smooth.There were visible lumps from an injectable and the areas under his eyes pouched out. Was it Sculptra,was it Radiesse I did not know but suddenly he burst into tears . “My face looks like the surface of the moon and I can’t perform like this.” He did not ask me if I could fix it but told me I was the only one who could. He had seen plastic surgeons who wanted to cut the lumps out but was very leary of anyone with a scalpel. Thus began my journey to repair the most famous face in the world.

\I went home that night in a slight state of shock. First I called Mark Honzel and addiction specialist and Allen Metger his internist. The injection sessions would be 3 hours long and we would use Demerol to sedate him.The lumps were my greatest concern and his beautiful almond shape eyes needed to be restored.
-------------------------------------------------
I belive Lupus was causing him to need cosmetic surgery at times, as it seem to causing lumps and bump to his face.