Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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You are right. This bit was also discussed extensively. This is a very damaging testimony/revelation.

That was misrepresantation of what Lee said, MJ did not tell her he wanted a doctor to give him propofol on that day. At that time he was still looking for someone to help Murray . AEG are acting like MJ was looking for other sources for propofol without Murray's knowledge, doctor shopping as Green speculated. No one denied propofol was MJ's idea . However , did AEG take responsibility for what Murray was doing when they started to demand things from him ? that's the whole point of this trial . I've never heard anyone say in court AEG forced Murray to give MJ propofol , thus AEG proving he was asking for it before does not refute Panish's argument, they are only looking to make MJ less sympathetic by twisting the facts .
 
I included the info from Maldonado's book to show that there was a police report and a police investigation into the alleged rape. You made the comment that someone (TwinkLEE) was accusing Jermaine of rape "for sport"--and I wanted to show there was in fact a lot more to it than that. Maldonado later says the charges were "thrown out on a technicality" but that she was convinced Hazel was telling the truth (64).

God forbid you accusing or even hinting any Jackson's are guilty of anything criminal, but throwing accusations on AEG is all allowed, if not preferable, according to some.
Stay in your line:)

so Gongaware's referral is enough but Michael's referral is not enough?

No, MJ was a 5 year old and in need for babysitting :no:
It doesn't matter that Dr Slavit testified that in Jan 2009, MJ told him that CM was his personal physician.

Green testified that just because a doctor is in debt (and many of them are..) doesn't mean it's a given that patient care will be impacted. This is why I still don't see the significance of pulling credit reports. What would it have told AEG and would they have done something differently had they seen Murray's credit report? I doubt it.

I don't see any significance either. Just for the sport, I did a google check of how the check doctors background. Every single site listed to check for medical malpractice lawsuits, licence etc the usual stuff, but none of them mentioned that I should check my doctor's credit check. Even if AEG had done credit check and got info that CM was in debt up to his neck, but then again, so was MJ. I wonder how they could have say no to CM because he was in debt, and going by that argument, Mj wouldn't have worked ever again, if debt is indication of criminal mind.
 
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Tygger;3891070 said:
Last Tear, Chase was paid with an advance and that is why AEG had no dealings with her and sought to hire a nutritionist when Michael already had a chef. Would it be easier to have a conversation with the current chef and see what Michael was being fed as opposed to hiring a nutritionist to work alongside the current chef? Of course, however, Chase was paid through an advance and that is why it was logical to attempt to hire someone else than to have a complimentary conversation with her..

I don't think how she was paid defines whether AEG could talk to her, Michael defines that. It's about every one doing their job, Kai prepares food it's not her job and is not qualified to be a nutritionist.

For the remainder: when a third party hires a personal doctor for another, they are taking on a responsibility to the health of that other person. This is why the doctor has to be vetted. Luckily for many who hold medical insurance, “in network” doctors have been vetted before they are allowed to be considered “in network” doctors that assist you with your health. Luckily the insurance company is not negligent in their responsibility to you.

With Michael, AEG inserted themselves into the doctor-patient relationship by becoming the third party that would allegedly hire the doctor for Michael. It does not matter if Michael knew the doctor and accepted his rendered services for three years. AEG did not know the doctor, was responsible for vetting the doctor, and AEG did not. AEG held the power to deny the doctor’s employment by them and if they decided not to hire him based on any information found in a background check, all Michael could do was grumble or pay the doctor himself. He could not walk away from his TII contract and the doctor was not a part of that TII contract between AEG and Michael.

There is a difference between a medical practice background check and a credit check.

It does matter that Michael already had a relationship with Murray, it matters greatly. If Murray is good enough for Michael then who are AEG to say that they disagree. Do you think they checked out Kai Chase to check she was a good enough chef for Michael. AEG did not insert themselves, Michael inserted them.
 
Gerryevans, did AEG ever hire a tour doctor? From what I understand AEG rarely was a producer of a tour as they mostly promoted tours. If they hired a tour doctor in the past, that doctor was most likely vetted even if just through experience with the doctor (example: Gongaware preferring to hire Dr. Finklestein because he had already worked with him and knew him personally).

With Michael, they were allegedly hiring a personal doctor solely for Michael as a third party without any prior knowledge of him. This means that a background check should have been done BEFORE alleged implied employment; i.e. successful vetting could result in hiring.

This concept of Michael was sick in June so a background check needed to be performed is NOT what the plaintiffs are suggesting at all.

I was the one who said that, so I assumed Gerryevans was commenting on what I said, not what the Jacksons said.

I don't really know what to think of those background checks at the initial time of hiring (in may, when no one suspected anything).

On one hand what you say , a doctor being potentially dangerous and AEG being a third party, makes sense. It makes sense that Jorrie or AEG should have checked, to protect AEG / themselves for liability. As a lawyer, her job is to anticipate any potential problem, it was a rare thing for AEG to do, and that's why they asked her to handle the contract.

On the other hand, at the time, Michael had the right to choose his own doctor, since Murray was a personnal doctor, not a tour doctor, and Michael was the one who asked for Murray, and Murray had been his doctor for 3 years prior to that.

Had she checked, she would have come up with a relatively bad credit check and several default judgement against Murray's companies and himself personnally. At the time, it would only have meant that he lied when he was negociating his salary. It is actually weird to go from 5 millions to 1.5 million, and weird to go from 12 millions gross to 1.5 million. But lying doesn't mean malpractice, it means financial problems, they could not have known the reasons for the financial problems. She would have found out about at least 400 000 dollars outsanding debts (deafult judgements against GCA, Acres Home and Murray, excluding child support).

It does mean that there could have been a conflict of interest, or better said that the conflict of interest was made worse (the AEG-Murray contract is a conflict of interest in itself), that could make the doctor susceptible to influence, and at the very least she should have brought this to AEG's attention, or make a 3 party contract. Or better, no contract involving AEG at all, to protect them.

Let's believe that she really did tell Phillips that Murray was successful and that Phillips believed that. Later on, when problems happened and some doubted Murray, it did become a crucial info, that Phillips considered and used to convince Ortega. Still assuming Phillips was sincere - which I don't believe- assuming he was sincere, knowing that Murray was in financial trouble and actually needed the money might have changed his view of the situation in june. At that time, Murray was still negociating his contract, AEG could have pulled out easily.

Phillips mentionning that shows - which is common sense - that a doctor can be influenced by money problems, even though he shouldn't. It shows he was aware of a potential conflict of interest, and unethical behavior, related to money issues.
Murray did do what he did because he needed the money, same as Klein and Hofflin messed up because of money.

Whether we agree or not with them, the Jacksons argument make sense because they also say that AEG (Gongaware) was aware of unethical doctors. They have not proved that Gongaware knew IMO, but the argument in itself makes sense if you consider AEG knew of potential unethical doctors.
 
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That was misrepresantation of what Lee said, MJ did not tell her he wanted a doctor to give him propofol on that day. At that time he was still looking for someone to help Murray . AEG are acting like MJ was looking for other sources for propofol without Murray's knowledge, doctor shopping as Green speculated. No one denied propofol was MJ's idea . However , did AEG take responsibility for what Murray was doing when they started to demand things from him ? that's the whole point of this trial . I've never heard anyone say in court AEG forced Murray to give MJ propofol , thus AEG proving he was asking for it before does not refute Panish's argument, they are only looking to make MJ less sympathetic by twisting the facts .

I watched SL testimony from CM trial and she said she had discussion with MJ on 19th morning, MJ wasn't happy, wanted to sleep longer and lack of sleep messed up his performance for the day. I think, MJ asked her if she could help him to find someone to give him propofol in the same evening when she was come back to house.
Start from 20:20 as her testimony is quite painful to watch


I got an impression of her testimony that as MJ didn't sleep well that night when CL was there, and mentioned something about rehearsals and need for sleep. He could have meant he needed someone to come to house and make his sleep the very next night, or I could be wrong with my impression.

Worth mentioning that Kai C testified that she saw CM only 2-3 times a week in April?
 
ABC7 Court News @ABC7Courts
Dr Green said he reviewed testimony Murray was off on Sundays. Apr 19 when MJ asked Lee to find a doctor to give him Propofol was Sunday.
So according to this testimony, Michael was requesting Propofol on one of his (and Murray's) day's off.

I find that odd for two reasons, first being if Michael was not working on that particular Sunday, why would he need a medical professional to "take him down?"

Secondly, up until now, it appeared that MJ ONLY used Propofol to help him "sleep" AFTER a performance, not after a rehearsal. Or had he been doing that type of "therapy" all along.

Nonetheless that testimony is very interesting. I'm not sure if Nurse Lee is going to take the witness stand, but if she does, maybe she can tie up any loose ends as per Michael's Propofol request.
 
@Big Apple2 I think it's been clear that Michael in 2009 was using propofol after rehearsals. I don't know if we will ever know the full picture of Michaels relationship with this drug.

We haven't heard yet from any doctor who actually put that needle in, and I'm very nervous for their testimony as I suspect that in order to justify their actions they may put the blame on Michael.
 
So according to this testimony, Michael was requesting Propofol on one of his (and Murray's) day's off.

I find that odd for two reasons, first being if Michael was not working on that particular Sunday, why would he need a medical professional to "take him down?"

Secondly, up until now, it appeared that MJ ONLY used Propofol to help him "sleep" AFTER a performance, not after a rehearsal. Or had he been doing that type of "therapy" all along.

Nonetheless that testimony is very interesting. I'm not sure if Nurse Lee is going to take the witness stand, but if she does, maybe she can tie up any loose ends as per Michael's Propofol request.

He requested it after rehearsals. According to Nurse Lee, MJ said the his lack of sleep on 18th ruined his rehearsals on 19th, or thats what I understood from her testimony from CM trial.
 
@Big Apple2 I think it's been clear that Michael in 2009 was using propofol after rehearsals. I don't know if we will ever know the full picture of Michaels relationship with this drug.

Thanks LastTear, that part I got.

I was asking more in regard to PAST tours, i.e., was he using Propofol after performances AND rehearsals, or just after performances?

I think the information coming out thus far is that with PAST tours, he only used Propofol after a performance - sometimes. And rehearsals were done without the use of Propofol. That's my understanding anyway.
 
Originally Posted by passy001
You are right. This bit was also discussed extensively. This is a very damaging testimony/revelation.
The fact it was a sunday wasn't a damaging revelation about mj. Agree with soundmind it's a twisting of lee's testimony by an aeg expert, i have no idea why posters are going along with it and agreeing with this misprepresentation.

bubs said:
I think, MJ asked her if she could help him to find someone to give him propofol in the same evening when she was come back to house.
No he didn't. He just told her in conversation about his inability to sleep that prop was the only thing that worked for him, he was looking for other ways at that time, hence his chat with lee. They both agreed she came back that evening and try that nutritional iv one more time. Nothing to do with propopfol. The woman had never heard of prop until that morning so how on earth cd it be expected she was going to come back later that day with a doc and prop? Lee came back later in the day, armed only with her nutritional iv and a book about prop with her warning about it. After her nutritional iv didn't work too well, she never heard from mj until late in june when he wasn't feeling well.
 
Okay I have held this in long enough!

WHERE THE HECK IS REBBIE? Still sick. LOL!

Somebody needs to tell the Jackson family that they will NOT achieve any type of justice for their dear brother by running away from the courtroom. That's not the way it works! When you're truly looking for justice you run TO the courthouse, not away from it.
 
"This concept of Michael was sick in June so a background check needed to be performed is NOT what the plaintiffs are suggesting at all."

I was the one who said that, so I assumed Gerryevans was commenting on what I said, not what the Jacksons said.
.

bouee...nope, I wasn't commenting on what you said. I was giving cause in my own mind why there would be justification for AEG to initiate a deeper background check than what Jorrie did. How about that? We actually shared the same thought on something. HOWEVER...from what was found out through the background check, I think it's completely irrelevant. And this trial is stupid.
 
I watched SL testimony from CM trial and she said she had discussion with MJ on 19th morning, MJ wasn't happy, wanted to sleep longer and lack of sleep messed up his performance for the day. I think, MJ asked her if she could help him to find someone to give him propofol in the same evening when she was come back to house.
Start from 20:20 as her testimony is quite painful to watch


I got an impression of her testimony that as MJ didn't sleep well that night when CL was there, and mentioned something about rehearsals and need for sleep. He could have meant he needed someone to come to house and make his sleep the very next night, or I could be wrong with my impression.

Worth mentioning that Kai C testified that she saw CM only 2-3 times a week in April?

The very next day would have been a Monday . She never said he told me he wanted to use propofol for that particular night. He was telling her nothing worked for him , only propofol could you please find me someone to give propofol . It goes with what Adams said , Murray was there MJ still asked him to join . I believe Adams said when Murray left the room MJ asked , Murray was not happy when he returned to find that MJ asked Adams . At least to me he really was not so sure Murray could handle it alone and was searching for someone else to join Murray.

No he didn't. He just told her in conversation about his inability to sleep that prop was the only thing that worked for him, he was looking for other ways at that time, hence his chat with lee. They both agreed she came back that evening and try that nutritional iv one more time. Nothing to do with propopfol. The woman had never heard of prop until that morning so how on earth cd it be expected she was going to come back later that day with a doc and prop? Lee came back later in the day, armed only with her nutritional iv and a book about prop with her warning about it. After her nutritional iv didn't work too well, she never heard from mj until late in june when he wasn't feeling well.

Exactly, when he woke up he was upset , he told her see nothing works but propofol , tomorrow I won't be able to perform . never called her back, it was a conversation . from everything we have heard so far he did not seem to hesitate to discuss propofol with whoever came intouch with . I mean after hearing Puntum opening I thought Grace had no idea about this deep dark secret , it seems pretty much all those who mattered knew and even a nurse who he only just met .
 
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^^But it is still a secret since only those in close contact with him knew like his health-care professionals, wife, nanny. There is no information that the masses knew, and there is no information that AEG knew. Hence it is a secret known only to a few.
 
^Why call it a 'secret'. That's aeg language. It's private medical information which just because mj is a celeb doesn't mean it has automatically to be plastered everywhere for the masses. Aeg didn't know about it, that's the only relevant thing.

Exactly, when he woke up he was upset , he told her see nothing works but propofol , tomorrow I won't be able to perform . never called her back, it was a conversation .
Agree, it's interesting that during the murray trial this encounter was seen by fans to show that mj was trying to test out other more natural remedies for his sleep and was prepared that night to try out this woman's recommendations of a nutritional iv, whereas in this aeg trial this encounter suddenly gets transformed by people into mj desperately demanding propofol on murray's day off.
 
Tygger;3891077 said:
I mentioned two items a background check would have discovered that Ivy spent the weekend mulling over

weekend? LOL nope it took me half an hour. I'm a quick reader.

laughs

That information existed and was available before Michael’s passing. How do I know? Simple: it would not be logical for Panish to present Martinez’ findings if all of the evidence was dated past the 25th including said non-payments of rent.

so you would believe everything Panish said and do not even care to read the documents?

http://www.psblaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Exhibit-462-7987LADA.pdf

Rental payments become delinquent on July 2, 2009. On July 17, 2009 I served the above 5 day notice...

he stopped paying his rent on May 26. It become delinquent on July 2nd, notice was sent on July 19. It wasn't on the credit report.

ask bouee if you don't believe me. She did look over the documents as well.
 
Bonnie Blue;3891173 said:
No he didn't. He just told her in conversation about his inability to sleep that prop was the only thing that worked for him, he was looking for other ways at that time, hence his chat with lee. They both agreed she came back that evening and try that nutritional iv one more time. Nothing to do with propopfol. The woman had never heard of prop until that morning so how on earth cd it be expected she was going to come back later that day with a doc and prop? Lee came back later in the day, armed only with her nutritional iv and a book about prop with her warning about it. After her nutritional iv didn't work too well, she never heard from mj until late in june when he wasn't feeling well.

Well, according that utube video, she said she was in the house 19th, morning and evening. She stayed with MJ the night on 18th monitoring his sleep and MJ slept only 3 hours and was kind of angry because he couldn't sleep and lack of sleep ruined his rehearsals in the same day (or next day?). In the morning 19th, he asked her if she could find someone to give him propofol, and she testified she didn't know what was it, so she called to someone who told him it is not something to administer to sleep and not in home settings. She then went back to MJ with this information and obviously informed him about propofol at home. However, she came back to house the very same evening to do what they originally agreed to do, nutritional iv etc.

and this is from summaries from trial:
Chernoff goes over her records. April 12 Michael wanted products for sleep but did not tell her what he wanted. April 19 she went to MJ’s house in the morning to prepare a smoothie and gave MJ B12. MJ said he had trouble sleeping and asked her to watch him sleep. He told Lee that he had a pattern of 2 to 3 hours sleep. MJ also asked about Diprivan (Propofol), Lee didn’t know what it is. MJ told her it’s the only medication that gets him to sleep right away. Lee says she doesn’t know if MJ had received Propofol in the past, he seemed to have familiarity with it. Lee talks about natural ways to sleep and sleep hygiene with MJ.

Before coming back that evening Lee searched Diprivan and called a doctor. Doctor told Lee what Diprivan is and it’s never used at home. Lee tells this to MJ. MJ says doctors had told him it was safe and he thought he would be safe he if he had someone at home to monitor him. Lee goes to her office and gets her PDR and shows the adverse effects to MJ. MJ tells her he had Diprivan for surgery and he had fallen asleep so easily. MJ says he needed rest to work.

Lee checks her records and corrects that MJ actually slept 3 hours (not 5 hours) according to her records. When MJ woke only sleeping 3 hours on April 19th he wasn’t happy. He said only thing that would help him sleep was Diprivan and asked Lee to help him find someone that would give it to him.

As I said, I could be wrong, and if she testifies in this trial, we'll hear more about that day.
 
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Bubs you are correct. I saw the nurse whole testimony that day. However, Green did say that Michael was asking other people for it when Muarry was giving it to him. We discussed this right after Green's testimony that he had misinterpreted the information. However, it was up to Panish to correct that and bring out the truth.

I still see the prof use as a secret shared only by a few, since there is no evidence showing that every body knew about it including AEG.
 
Exactly, when he woke up he was upset , he told her see nothing works but propofol , tomorrow I won't be able to perform . never called her back, it was a conversation . from everything we have heard so far he did not seem to hesitate to discuss propofol with whoever came intouch with . I mean after hearing Puntum opening I thought Grace had no idea about this deep dark secret , it seems pretty much all those who mattered knew and even a nurse who he only just met .

You need to listen what CL says on her testimony. He did not say he won't be able to perform tomorrow.
CL testified on 22 minutes mark: MJ said now that I have not been able to sleep all night, this is going to mess up my performance for today (or for the day).
 
from everything we have heard so far he did not seem to hesitate to discuss propofol with whoever came intouch with . I mean after hearing Puntum opening I thought Grace had no idea about this deep dark secret , it seems pretty much all those who mattered knew and even a nurse who he only just met .

Putnam in his opening statement said that the doctors MJ discussed it with knew about it but they did not know about the other doctors and they could not tell it to anyone else due to doctor- patient confidentiality. So Lee would know it as he asked her about it but did she know other doctors, was she aware of Murray, and did she tell about Propofol to anyone else? We don't know what Grace knew as she's in hiding but neither Michael's kids, his mother, chef Chase, his friend Karen and so on weren't aware of Propofol.
 
Bubs you are correct. I saw the nurse whole testimony that day. However, Green did say that Michael was asking other people for it when Muarry was giving it to him. We discussed this right after Green's testimony that he had misinterpreted the information. However, it was up to Panish to correct that and bring out the truth.

I still see the prof use as a secret shared only by a few, since there is no evidence showing that every body knew about it including AEG.

How Green misinterpretend the information, what did I miss?
 
Honestly, I can see both sides of the argument. As far as AEG is concerned Murray was already treating Michael in April, he made his first propofol order on April 6th, can't call Murray because its his day off. It appears from CL testimony that Michael was looking for propofol that very day. He wasn't honest with her, he didn't tell her that he had received propofol other than for an operation, he didn't tell her about Conrad Murray. Kai Chase said she only saw Murray abt 3 times in April, when was she brought back?

However I do believe that Michael was looking for another doctor, an athesiologist, to come on tour - just a shame he didn't call Adams back himself. We know Murray intercepted that relationship and he most likely wanted to be the only doctor and convinced Michael that he could cope and was qualified. But that also tells me that there were some alarm bells for Michael by having only one person monitoring and yet he did it anyway. *sigh*

If Green is twisting then it's up to the Plantiffs to untwist.

Different scenarios are running around my head, I could be way off, but I am pretty certain that we will never know the answers, Michael can't tell us and would we ever believe Murray?
 
Putnam in his opening statement said that the doctors MJ discussed it with knew about it but they did not know about the other doctors and they could not tell it to anyone else due to doctor- patient confidentiality. So Lee would know it as he asked her about it but did she know other doctors, was she aware of Murray, and did she tell about Propofol to anyone else? We don't know what Grace knew as she's in hiding but neither Michael's kids, his mother, chef Chase, his friend Karen and so on weren't aware of Propofol.

Debbie said Grace knew, Debbie knew HIS WIFE , the kid's nanny knew . Who's Karen? was she living with him ? why would he even tell his medical issues to his makeup artist? Did MJ tell Katherine about keliods ? obvioulsy not . Did he think that was a shameful secret he needed to keep from her ? I don't think so .
How come the other doctors did not know about other doctors? He told Lee there were other doctors but he did not name them .Did she say I asked him to name them but he refused ? Sure not . Metzeger contacted the doctors in Germany and arranged everything with them . Hofellin and Klein were communicationg with Fornier . Murray contacted Adams . Where did he keep it from other doctors ?
Puntam said that was a deep dark secret that MJ kept from everyone beside his doctors who even they were not communicating with each other , were not aware of each other. But now we knew that was not true at all . why would he tell Prince , Paris and Blanket ? Did he tell Grace who was their nanny ? yes . Did he tell their mon ? Yes , so ??

You need to listen what CL says on her testimony. He did not say he won't be able to perform tomorrow.
CL testified on 22 minutes mark: MJ said now that I have not been able to sleep all night, this is going to mess up my performance for today (or for the day).

I listened to her testimony. It was a general statement, he invited her to check his sleeping patterns ,she offered to help him with some herbs , he could not sleep for long , was upset made a general statement about him not being able to deliver due to lack of sleep . He did not tell her because I did not get propofol tonight this is going to mess up my performance for today . general statement on the hazards he had to face because of his insomnia suddenly it turned out he wanted to recieve propofol on weekends also .
 
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Debbie said Grace knew, Debbie knew HIS WIFE , the kid's nanny knew . Who's Karen? was she living with him ? why would he even tell his medical issues to his makeup artist? Did MJ tell Katherine about keliods ? obvioulsy not . Did he think that was a shameful secret he needed to keep from her ? I don't think so .

what are we arguing here? There's one question that matters here "Did AEG knew?", if your logic is people that don't live with him wouldn't know then AEG would not know it either.
 
Bubs Here is some testimony:

-Bloss: Do you have information MJ was seeking Propofol from people other than Dr. Murray?
-Dr. Green: Yes, Dr. Metzger and Cherilyn Lee.
-On Apr 19, MJ asked Cherilyn Lee to find someone to give him Propofol, Bloss said. He asked if it'd be consistent w/ Murray there same day
-Dr. Green: We see addicts and they go to multiple sources, I could only speculate why MJ was seeking Propofol from more than one person.


You see there^^ Green's testimony there implies that Michael had prof and still asking these other people as though Michael was getting it from others at the same time/doctor shopping.
 
Tygger;3891077 said:
Many of you have resisted the concept that the doctor should warrant a background check. So be it.

For the remainder: when a third party hires a personal doctor for another, they are taking on a responsibility to the health of that other person. This is why the doctor has to be vetted. Luckily for many who hold medical insurance, “in network” doctors have been vetted before they are allowed to be considered “in network” doctors that assist you with your health. Luckily the insurance company is not negligent in their responsibility to you.

The only "vetting" the insurance company performs is a check with the state medical boards on up-to-date licensing, malpractice suits, misconduct and hospital credentials--credit checks are typically not performed and the vetting is not regulated. So, if AEG had done an insurance company type background check on Murray, they would have found he was licensed in three states, had no malpractice suits and had credentials to practice in several hospitals. Period. No red flags there...

Tygger;3891077 said:
With Michael, AEG inserted themselves into the doctor-patient relationship by becoming the third party that would allegedly hire the doctor for Michael. It does not matter if Michael knew the doctor and accepted his rendered services for three years. AEG did not know the doctor, was responsible for vetting the doctor, and AEG did not. AEG held the power to deny the doctor’s employment by them and if they decided not to hire him based on any information found in a background check, all Michael could do was grumble or pay the doctor himself. He could not walk away from his TII contract and the doctor was not a part of that TII contract between AEG and Michael.

The items found in the background check by Martinez could have been discovered by AEG if they were so inclined however, they were negligent and did not perform one minus Jorrie’s feeble 10 minute Google search.

I mentioned two items a background check would have discovered that Ivy spent the weekend mulling over: multiple social security numbers and non-payment of rent on his two genuine offices. AEG had the right to deny employment to the doctor if they did not find his response to having multiple social security numbers innocuous and/or satisfactory. AEG had the right to deny employment to the doctor as the non-payment of rent on his two genuine offices showed he was not as successful as he presented himself to AEG when AEG most definitely asked about his background in his effort to gain employment.

So what? Where is the malpractice suit that would make AEG think twice about this guy? Where are the denial of hospital credentials? The lapse of his medical license in a state or two? Arrest record, maybe? There was NONE of that--only these lame issues that are so minor even the insurance companies who apparently vetted Murray to be in their networks didn't think were a big deal!


Tygger;3891077 said:
It is actually those who reject this concept of the doctor being vetted who are using hindsight. How can we know the doctor would kill a patient because he has three social security numbers? We do not know however, we can decide if we want to work with someone who has three social security numbers based on their reasons for having more than one as the MAJORITY of Americans only have one. How can we know the doctor would kill a patient because he is not paying rent on his two genuine offices? We do not know however, we can decide if we want to work with someone who fabricated their success and is untruthful about their experience.

Murray was already "in network" for at least one, if not more, insurance companies and was vetted by them--to use your example above. Clearly he passed the vetting test. AEG could rightfully use the insurance company vetting process as their reason for not doing extensive background checks because he already passed that hurdle and had the "seal of approval" already.
 
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I listened to her testimony. It was a general statement, he invited her to check his sleeping patterns ,she offered to help him with some herbs , he could not sleep for long , was upset made a general statement about him not being able to deliver due to lack of sleep . He did not tell her because I did not get propofol tonight this is going to mess up my performance for today . general statement on the hazards he had to face because of his insomnia suddenly it turned out he wanted to recieve propofol on weekends also .

That is your translation of what was said, and I have my own.
I know MJ tried all sort of things the get natural sleep and no help. The fact is that he only found instant help from propofol, does not mean that in my eyes he is bad person, far from it.

What do you mean that he asked propofol weekends too?
MJ wasn't working on 9 to 5, Mon to Friday job. His job involved rehearsing evenings and weekend so it is not unusual that he needed help for sleep during weekends too. CM was giving him propofol 6 nights of the week.
I tried to find info if MJ was rehearsing on April 19 and found this video and description says it was 19th

 
Bubs Here is some testimony:

-Bloss: Do you have information MJ was seeking Propofol from people other than Dr. Murray?
-Dr. Green: Yes, Dr. Metzger and Cherilyn Lee.
-On Apr 19, MJ asked Cherilyn Lee to find someone to give him Propofol, Bloss said. He asked if it'd be consistent w/ Murray there same day
-Dr. Green: We see addicts and they go to multiple sources, I could only speculate why MJ was seeking Propofol from more than one person.


You see there^^ Green's testimony there implies that Michael had prof and still asking these other people as though Michael was getting it from others at the same time/doctor shopping.

I understood his testimony in a way that he says that MJ was looking for someone else to give propofol that night because CM wasn't there that day, he had Sundays off?
I'm confused now:scratch:
 
^ It seems that some posters agreed with green that it was significant that mj's meeting with lee when he asked about prop was on a sunday (supposedly murray's day off) and this has led some to claim that lee's testimony did in fact show mj was looking for prop on the sunday, which ironically i don't think even the aeg expert tried to claim, just imply.

last tear said:
can't call Murray because its his day off. It appears from CL testimony that Michael was looking for propofol that very day. He wasn't honest with her, he didn't tell her that he had received propofol other than for an operation, he didn't tell her about Conrad Murray.
To repeat - it is not in lee's testimony that mj was looking for prop the day that murray wasn't working, the sunday. Just because an aeg expert says it, or implies it, doesn't make it true. Was sunday even murry's day off? - he wasn't working 6 days a week in april. Where in lee's testimony do you get that mj wasn't honest with her? Lee never testified to having a conversation with mj regarding his use of prop, just that he told her it was the only thing that could 'knock him out' and that doctors had told him it was safe if he was monitored.

Well, according that utube video, she said she was in the house 19th, morning and evening. She stayed with MJ the night on 18th monitoring his sleep and MJ slept only 3 hourse and was kind of angry because he couldn't sleep and lack of sleep ruined his rehearsals in the same day (or next day?).
No, she didn't spend the night of the 18th with mj. The sleep study was the night of 19/20th, later in the day after the morning meeting on the 19th.

bubs said:
In the morning 19th, he asked her if she could find someone to give him propofol, and she testified she didn't know what was it, so she called to someone who told him it is not something to administer to sleep and not in home settings. She then went back to MJ with this information and obviously informed him about propofol at home. However, she came back to house the very same evening to do what they originally agreed to do, nutritional iv etc.
No. Lee never testified that mj asked for her to find someone to give him prop on the morning of the 19th. All he did was mention that prop was the only thing that helped him sleep as it knocked him out. Lee had never heard of it until that moment. It was only after the sleep study was not a success, on the early morning of the 20th that mj said that prop was the only thing that knocked him sleep and asked if she could find someone to help him sleep with it. Neither of them spoke to each other again for months, so it seems to have been an informal request, lee had made it pretty clear to mj that she didn't believe it was safe to use in a home setting so i imagine mj knew that lee wouldn't be suggesting anyone.
 
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bouee...nope, I wasn't commenting on what you said. I was giving cause in my own mind why there would be justification for AEG to initiate a deeper background check than what Jorrie did. How about that? We actually shared the same thought on something.

:)

so you would believe everything Panish said and do not even care to read the documents?

http://www.psblaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Exhibit-462-7987LADA.pdf

Rental payments become delinquent on July 2, 2009. On July 17, 2009 I served the above 5 day notice...

he stopped paying his rent on May 26. It become delinquent on July 2nd, notice was sent on July 19. It wasn't on the credit report.

ask bouee if you don't believe me. She did look over the documents as well.

yes, and there was a second eviction procedure in 2007, resolved.

As I said, Jorrie would not have seen the 2009 eviction notice since it was filed on july 17th.

I think panish introduce that document to make it clear that money issues were still ongoing, and maybe to add to his argument that promising a salary and not paying it, delaying Murray's contract was another form of pressure, even though it seems it was a custom practice at AEG.

---

re Lee's testimony I understand the same thing as Soundmind, Bonnie Blue and Petrarose : she doesn't say he was asking propofol for a specific date. Green is definitely twisting her testimony, unless she was deposed and said something else that we don't know in her depo.

He saw Metzger on the 18th, and nurse Lee on 19th. I don't believe he asked for propofol on 12th, with nurse Lee, did he ?

Murray was there 2-3 days a week as per Kai Chase's testimony, and we have no idea when the propofol, or Murray's "treatement" started. Kai Chase said that Murray would sometimes come in april for social visits. We know Murray started buying propofol on april 6th, then bought some again on april 28th, but we don't know whaen he started using it.

I guess Michael was looking for someone or 2 persons to give it to him, I don't think he was trying to have propofol every night in april.
 
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