Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Justthefacts]

The home was going to be foreclosed Michael is given Katherine money. And so is Janet. What was she doing with it? So in her head perhaps she expected Michael to take care of it?

 

[Soundmind]

So in her head perhaps she expected Michael to take care of it?

She knew for a fact he would , she did not need to worry about taking propofol to sleep or anything , she was sleeping well , eating well , stopping the foreclosure was like everything else MJ's problem

 

[Petrarose]

How do they figure this out without considering variables like John Branca? Because if Michael's money was managed by people like Tohme or Leonard Rowe the bottom line would be drastically reduced.

I haven't been following how this trend analysis is done, but surely they are looking at the enormous debt Michael had at the time of his death, right? And, do they also consider the lawsuits that were filed--like Raymone Bain & others--and likely more to come had he lived, if history is prologue.

That is what I think too. I mean if one has talent, and reaches a point where you can't take care of your family, as Ackerman implied when he said Michal would not be able to continue support of the plaintiffs, then it stands to reason that youl would have gone back to work, which he was actually during. The trend analysis leaves no room for change, and is a static type of analysis to me. I know it has value, especially for a person with a steady income, like a nurse, teacher, ceo, but when it comes to someone who could easily make money simply by showing up at a function, touring, merchandising, producing or some other create outlet, I think it is not the best marker of the person's potential in the future. Further, he was about to do just that by doing TII, and writing on paper about the deals where he was going to make a lot of money, so these show his future financial situation was not going to be a replica of his past.

 

[Bubs]

The home was going to be foreclosed Michael is given Katherine money. And so is Janet. What was she doing with it? So in her head perhaps she expected Michael to take care of it?

I just re-read Margaret M book yesterday in which she wrote that KJ is not stupid business woman and knows value of money. So where did she put all the money she got? She gave only a little bit for her useless cubs to pay their child support, she didn't give that much to Joe either, so where did the all the money went?

 

[Bubs]

She knew for a fact he would , she did not need to worry about taking propofol to sleep or anything , she was sleeping well , eating well , stopping the foreclosure was like everything else MJ's problem

Hopefully while she is in the court, she listens and listen very carefully. She testified that MJ didn't have money problems, but he was indeed in bad situation, and she wasn't helping.
I wonder if she still think that person in debt should be seen as a red flag?

 

[Soundmind]

That is what I think too. I mean if one has talent, and reaches a point where you can't take care of your family, as Ackerman implied when he said Michal would not be able to continue support of the plaintiffs, then it stands to reason that youl would have gone back to work, which he was actually during. The trend analysis leaves no room for change, and is a static type of analysis to me. I know it has value, especially for a person with a steady income, like a nurse, teacher, ceo, but when it comes to someone who could easily make money simply by showing up at a function, touring, merchandising, producing or some other create outlet, I think it is not the best marker of the person's potential in the future. Further, he was about to do just that by doing TII, and writing on paper about the deals where he was going to make a lot of money, so these show his future financial situation was not going to be a replica of his past.

well , his figures regarding what Katherine was getting are realistic , I mean did anyone believe he was going to hand her 100 millions or 500 millions like her cubs are claiming ? It does sound realistic what he came up with , it's not like he said she would not be getting anything. Yes he did say there was a chance MJ would not have been able to continue to support but at the same time he did estimations based on what she was getting and the numbers at least to me sound very reasonable .

 

[ivy]

He mentioned that MJ's interest was somewhat 16.8%. I wonder how come he or his staff wasn't able to negotiate smaller percentage as Branca did after he took over the estate?

he said the interest rates started with 7% and increased to 16.8%. It happens due to credit history. The first time you take a loan, you get a good interest amount and if you can't pay and if you take other loans the credit score goes down and the interest rates go up. The only way to reduce such interest rate would be to pay the principal balance. so for example if Michael earned money from TII and put that money to pay back his principal loan, his credit score would get better and the interest rates would go down.

I think the only reason Branca was able to lower the interest rate was due to Michael's death and not due to some sort of Branca's special ability. Michael had died, there was a sudden income coming in and the Estate was in probate - hence legally should pay the debts under the control of a judge. That could have allowed refinancing of the loan with better interest rates as the payment of them was almost certain.

The expert said MJ was to continue to receive $6.5 million every year for royalties and $11 million from 2008 and forward until 2014.

I take that these are royalties from his own and sony/ATV catalogue? Does anyone know why he only receives royalties until 2014?

I think he would have continued to receive them but they update the amount every 5 years or so. So in other words they would have increased the royalties amount in 2014.

Strong showed chart with MJ's outstanding debt:
2001 -- $231 million
2005 -- $275 million
2006 -- $325 million

Was that increase from 2005 to 2006 Randy's doing as he was meddling with MJ's money?

I can tell you this much. According to Prescient lawsuit in 2006 Michael's loan was $200 M on Sony / ATV and $75 M for Mijac. When they did that refinancing Michael got some cash as well raising it to $300 Million. There were loans on Neverland as well. so it might be due to that, he refinanced his loans in 2006 and got extra cash during the process which increased his debts. There could also be added fees

"Ackerman: Mr. Jackson never got paid that money from royalties, it went straight to the lender."

Where did he get money do pay KJ support and other things if he didn't have income.

I understood it as sony/atv income went to paying the debt. he could have gotten money from mijac. also he could have unrelated royalties such as from his movies / videos etc. and he was paid money for some other projects such as thriller 25 by sony.

 

[Justthefacts]

That trial threw Michael in such a disarray and having Randyrun things just made it worst.

 

[Soundmind]

I just re-read Margaret M book yesterday in which she wrote that KJ is not stupid business woman and knows value of money. So where did she put all the money she got? She gave only a little bit for her useless cubs to pay their child support, she didn't give that much to Joe either, so where did the all the money went?

She gave it to her cubs to spend it on themselves not their kids because the kids were taken care of by MJ . How her cubs survived all those years without income ? they've never worked in ages .

 

[Petrarose]

The home was going to be foreclosed Michael is given Katherine money. And so is Janet. What was she doing with it? So in her head perhaps she expected Michael to take care of it?

She claimed Janet only gave her money when Michael went to Middle East, and I think it was 10,000 compared to the 1 mil Michael left for her care when he left. Then she told Janet not to give her any more money, I think it was when Michael came back. It seems she feel Michel alone should take care of her, because she doubted he had a cash flow problem.

Soundmind I think his numbers are realistic & real in terms of the debts, interests, etc; however, I don't think the future prognosis is realistic, based on Michael's ability to get new managers and come up with different plans for work for the future. We will just have to disagree on that one.

Ivy if you think Branca got a lower interest due to Michael's death and money coming in, then wouldn't he get a better interest rate after TII and other projects and thus new money comes in. I am sure the banks do not care whether money comes in from tours or death, as long as money is coming in.

 

[Bubs]

2013 cost of private university -- $63,000 (Harvard). Ages 18-21. In 2009, it was $51,000. This included tuition and room and board.

Which of kid is going to Harvard?
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Ackerman's testimony is a bit fuzzy to me as it seems he is throwing numbers before MJ died, and numbers after:-(
Is there anyone out there who could put those numbers in orderly manner so I can make something out of them?
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Ackerman said Mrs. Jackson's life expectancy was 10 years from 2009. So he stopped calculating future earnings based on that.

I wonder where and how he got that KJ had only 10 years to go, or even less now because that was 2009?
According that, KJ has 6 years left?
Has Randy, Janet and Jermaine being around KJ made her life expectancy shorter?
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I know why Panish is like a hawk after these experts billings and how much they charge. He knows when he loses the case, he is going to get those bills to pay
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"I made aware that Dr. Tohme may had been holding some money for MJ," Ackerman responded.
Panish: Did you testify in your deposition that it was stated by a number of people that Dr. Tohme was incompetent and dishonest.

I so want to hear those testimonies, and hopefully we will hear them.

 

[Justthefacts]

Please don't tell me Michael was paying for someone's kid to go to school. And Randy's kids grauted from Harvard

 

[Petrarose]

Panish wants to show how much the experts make to show bias, and you are right his client will be paying that bill if they lose. There is a trend in this trial that those who get the most money give the most dismal prognosis of Michael's situation or health, so the more money they get the more they give the client what the client wants. Panish needs to show the jury that bias. They all claim they used a lot of people to help, and I guess that is a way they stiff the client for the big bill. They claim they took 600+ hours, and used a lot of staff to make analyses, so that justifies the big fees. We all know that most of the money goes to the expert and not all the 10+ staff. The staff just gets his usual biweekly income, while the expert pulls in most of the cash.

Then, Ackerman claims it did not cost him million, when 800,000 + is almost a million. He did not even add in his fees to court.

Justthefacts Randy's daughter did graduate from Harvard, but we don't know who paid for that. Michael did pay for the 3T's school. I don't know who else he paid for.

 

[Bubs]

Panish: Did he give you gifts?
Mrs Jackson: All the time. He gave me everything, the necessities of life, gifts, cars, jewelry, mobile homes (ABC7)
Panish: Did he give you money?
Mrs. Jackson: Yes, cash. Michael never wrote checks (ABC7)

Regarding Michael having money problems, Mrs. Jackson said : "My son made a lot of money, he had people working for him."
Putnam: Where you aware MJ was having financial difficulties when he passed away? Mrs. Jackson: Yes, I've heard from some people
"They have been saying it for 15 years," Mrs. Jackson said. "People were taking money from him also, stealing I should say."
Mrs. Jackson testified she heard stories about it. Putnam: Who did you hear that from? Mrs. Jackson: Just different people
She also said MJ told her too that people were making deals on his behalf.
"They were being offered money under the table, that's what I heard from my son," Mrs. Jackson testified. And Mrs. Jackson asked: "What does this have to do with the death of my son?"
Putnam: You heard about MJ having money problems? Mrs. Jackson: I heard for years Michael Jackson was broken and he wasn't
Putnam: Did you ever ask MJ about having money problems? Mrs. Jackson: No, because I didn't believe it. Because he wasn't. (ABC7)

Putnam also asked Katherine Jackson about her son's payments to her over the years. She said he directly paid many of the expenses on her home and would occasionally give her cash as a gift. Katherine Jackson said she didn't keep track of the payments and appeared to grow annoyed at the questions. "What does this have to do with the death of my son," she asked Putnam. (AP) Putnam asked Mrs. Jackson whether she was aware of her son’s financial difficulties before his death. She said yes. Katherine Jackson: "They’ve been saying for years, last 15 years that Michael Jackson is broke." She said she knew that wasn't true. (AP)

After Ackerman's testimony and what KJ testified earlier, I'm speechless.

 

[Petrarose]

Bubs I really think that Katherine thought he had a lot of money. I think she heard for years all the negative things about her son that were not true, so when she hears another negative thing over & over, she dismisses it as not being true. Further, every time she asks him for something, she gets it, so she thinks he has money. He has staff, body guards, travels, has a big house, you know all the things that Katherine feels means someone has money. I know she tells lies, but somehow in this respect I think she really thought her son did not have cash problems. Even I heard since the 80s the media saying Michael was broke, and at the time, since they had already began saying a host of negative things about him, I dismissed it as yet another negative story. This must have been a lie, because in the 80s he was not broke.

 

[twinklEE]

Please don't tell me Michael was paying for someone's kid to go to school. And Randy's kids grauted from Harvard

Stevanna went to Havard. In case someone doesn't know Stevanna is the child that was in Eliza's womb while mental Randall was beating her.

 

[Bubs]

Please don't tell me Michael was paying for someone's kid to go to school. And Randy's kids grauted from Harvard

Who in the family is around this age 18-21 as it says it is 63 thousand for age of 18-21?

Stevanna graduated 2012 and the document says:
2013 cost of private university -- $63,000 (Harvard)
Meaning somebody is still there that MJ is paying for?

 

[Snow White luvs Peter Pan]

Michael supported his siblings, even nephews and nieces all these years! How come Katherine didn't tell them to stop living at Michael's expense and work their asses off, that's disgustingly irresponsible! :shock: Too much to bear, no wonder why he had debts. Generating huge amounts of money his savviness in business helped him not to reach a rock bottom.

 

[Justthefacts]

Panish: Did he give you gifts?
Mrs Jackson: All the time. He gave me everything, the necessities of life, gifts, cars, jewelry, mobile homes (ABC7) Those are not necessities of life
Panish: Did he give you money?
Mrs. Jackson: Yes, cash. Michael never wrote checks (ABC7) Take my last few pennies why don't you

Regarding Michael having money problems, Mrs. Jackson said : "My son made a lot of money, he had people working for him."
Putnam: Where you aware MJ was having financial difficulties when he passed away? Mrs. Jackson: Yes, I've heard from some people
"They have been saying it for 15 years," Mrs. Jackson said. "People were taking money from him also, stealing I should say."
Mrs. Jackson testified she heard stories about it. Putnam: Who did you hear that from? Mrs. Jackson: Just different people
She also said MJ told her too that people were making deals on his behalf. Like Joe and Len Rowe. And let us not forget the Moonies
"They were being offered money under the table, that's what I heard from my son," Mrs. Jackson testified. And Mrs. Jackson asked: "What does this have to do with the death of my son?"
Putnam: You heard about MJ having money problems? Mrs. Jackson: I heard for years Michael Jackson was broken and he wasn't
Putnam: Did you ever ask MJ about having money problems? Mrs. Jackson: No, because I didn't believe it. Because he wasn't. (ABC7)
You never asked him about it because you did not think it was true, Or you didn't want to know
Putnam also asked Katherine Jackson about her son's payments to her over the years. She said he directly paid many of the expenses on her home and would occasionally give her cash as a gift. Katherine Jackson said she didn't keep track of the payments and appeared to grow annoyed at the questions. "What does this have to do with the death of my son," she asked Putnam. (AP) Putnam asked Mrs. Jackson whether she was aware of her son’s financial difficulties before his death. She said yes. Katherine Jackson: "They’ve been saying for years, last 15 years that Michael Jackson is broke." She said she knew that wasn't true. (AP)

 

[twinklEE]

Who in the family is around this age 18-21 as it says it is 63 thousand for age of 18-21?

-
Stevanna, Genevieve, Jermaine's middle children from Margaret, they all were between 18-21 back in 2009.
Steven and Jermaine's shared children Randy Jr and Donte are 22/21 (respectively born in 1991 & 1992) now. Genevieve 24 (b. 1989), Stevanna 23 (b.1990)

 

[twinklEE]

Michael supported his siblings, even nephews and nieces all these years! How come Katherine didn't tell them to stop living at Michael's expense and work their asses off, that's disgustingly irresponsible! :shock: Too much to bear, no wonder why he had debts. Generating huge amounts of money his savviness in business helped him not to reach a rock bottom.

Michael having money issues had a lot to do with Katherine's self entitlement, it was due to her pressuring Michael to feed her useless, lazy, semi-illiterate cubs and their countless seemingly equally useless and lazy children that were born by various women.

SMGDH@ at her getting angry when questioned.

There is a special place for Katherine as well as her leeching cubs when they go.

 

[Bubs]

-
Stevanna, Genevieve, Jermaine's middle children from Margaret, they all were between 18-21 back in 2009.
Steven and Jermaine's shared children Randy Jr and Donte are 22/21 (respectively born in 1991 & 1992) now. Genevieve 24 (b. 1989), Stevanna 23 (b.1990)

Stevanna already graduated so it cannot be her.
Genevieve is not in Harward as she is collecting party money with Teddy Rileys daughter in the name of charity.
So maybe Randy Jr or Donte?

 

[Justthefacts]

I wonder if they loose this case. And when Katherine closes her eyes for the final time. What will they do?

 

[ivy]

Ivy if you think Branca got a lower interest due to Michael's death and money coming in, then wouldn't he get a better interest rate after TII and other projects and thus new money comes in. I am sure the banks do not care whether money comes in from tours or death, as long as money is coming in.

Yes and I said that. If Michael had money coming in from TII and used it to pay the principal of the loan, his credit score would get better and he would be able to negotiate a better interest rate. Plus as the principal was being paid the interest amount would decrease as well. So yeah absolutely a steady income used to pay back the loans would make the debt / interest situation a lot better.

 

[Justthefacts]

Stevanna already graduated so it cannot be her.
Genevieve is not in Harward as she is collecting party money with Teddy Rileys daughter in the name of charity.
So maybe Randy Jr or Donte?

She graduated last year. I remember because Randy pulled a no show

 

[twinklEE]

Stevanna already graduated so it cannot be her.
Genevieve is not in Harward as she is collecting party money with Teddy Rileys daughter in the name of charity.
So maybe Randy Jr or Donte?

As far as I know Randy Jr. and Donte attend community College not Harvard.

 

[twinklEE]

I wonder if they loose this case. And when Katherine closes her eyes for the final time. What will they do?

Hound those three children relentlessly that's what they are going to do, and Steven will be the ring leader. There are doubts in my mind that his children will have to suffer and pay one way or the other.

 

[jaydom7]

Steveanna graduated from Harvard.. Is this the tuition they are talking about?

 

[twinklEE]

Stevanna already graduated so it cannot be her.
Genevieve is not in Harward as she is collecting party money with Teddy Rileys daughter in the name of charity.
So maybe Randy Jr or Donte?

Stevanna completed her under graduate studies last year, I don't think she is working already, if she is still there to go to Grad school it would make sense.

 

[Bubs]

Bubs I really think that Katherine thought he had a lot of money. I think she heard for years all the negative things about her son that were not true, so when she hears another negative thing over & over, she dismisses it as not being true. Further, every time she asks him for something, she gets it, so she thinks he has money. He has staff, body guards, travels, has a big house, you know all the things that Katherine feels means someone has money. I know she tells lies, but somehow in this respect I think she really thought her son did not have cash problems. Even I heard since the 80s the media saying Michael was broke, and at the time, since they had already began saying a host of negative things about him, I dismissed it as yet another negative story. This must have been a lie, because in the 80s he was not broke.

I don't agree with it. I don't belive KJ is this soft spoken clueless woman as she is portrayed to be. Margaret M wrote about her in the book, and her discriptions doesn't go with what you wrote. Also she was behing the book My Family, The Jacksons.
She aint that clueless woman in that book either. She was in the left, right and center when there were negotiations about touring etc. How could she not think MJ had money problems if her house mortgage went without payment for months?
I think it is possibility that MJ told her that he'll pay the mortgage when he gets money from TII, thus KJ must have know MJ was in troubles, at least in 2009.
I don't find it believable that MJ didn't tell KJ anything and just left her hanging and wait for losing her home.
More believable is that he told her, so she must have been aware of money problems.

Also if MJ was holding on to that 5 million that Tohme had (I maintain that MJ didn't know about that money, but in sake if he did), he certainly didn't use that money to pay KJ mortgage?