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Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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ivy said:
edited to add: a real life example. several years ago my BF had his wisdom teeth removed. it was an minor operation with anesthesia + pain killers and he was given prescription for really strong painkillers (which actually knocked him out) for 7 days. He took them 3 days and stopped. While we were going to the dentist for the prep , we met with this one other guy that BF started to talk at the waiting room. He had previously painkiller addiction and gotten clean and needed wisdom teeth operation. He was sent home with no prescription to painkillers, and he was being given painkillers at the dentist office daily at a minimal amount - just enough to make his pain bearable but not make it completely go away. He had told us that the doctors don't trust him with 7 days worth of strong painkillers - which he might have used more than recommended dose and they did not want the pills to remove all the pain. In other words they were controlling to make sure that he would not have that good feeling thay comes with painkillers and so that he won't have a relapse.
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what makes you think that doctors wre not just doing that with Michael- except Klein & Hoefflin- ? He had a high tolerance, so needed large doses, and no pills as far as we know.
 
I am infuriated at the lies of Randy. I've been away dealing with my own personal issues but to see it fold out so neatly and many fans have known for years he was behind the drug rumors and some of else, including me unfortunately, believed it for a while. I wish that those in the know would come out and really tell what happened. Randy got trusted by Michael to run his business and his money and that little taste of power is something he can't let go. By the time Michael found out he couldn't trust Randy, he was suffering with his own issues, i.e. the trial and had no time for the power struggles going on around him, i.e, Randy and Grace. Randy and this family have behaved like the molestation accusers. Turn us down, say no to us, refuse us money, and we'll go to the press on you. Michael became a molester when he refused someone money. When Michael refused his family, he became a druggie. Same playbook. Its always been said they were jealous of him but this is more than jealousy imo. Its straight out hatred. I think some of them hate their brother. To say the things Randy said, to sink their own case, was/is his way of getting back at Michael, for cutting him off and leaving him out of the money. Now he's making sure his legacy and memory is tarnished even if they can't get his money. I'm just done with them.
 
From CNN

Michael Jackson's ex-wife Debbie Rowe is set to testify in the AEG Live wrongful death trial Wednesday, lawyers for the concert promoter said Monday.

Rowe is expected to be questioned about Jackson's drug use during the 1990s when she traveled with him, married him and bore his two oldest children.

She will be called as the next witness in the Los Angeles courtroom after an economics expert concludes his testimony about the financial support Jackson would have provided his mother and three children had he not died four years ago.
 
ivy said:
She will be called as the next witness in the Los Angeles courtroom after an economics expert concludes his testimony about the financial support Jackson would have provided his mother and three children had he not died four years ago.
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Is this expert testifying for the plaintiff?
 
Bubs so now not only did Randy not go to Taiwan, but he also was not in the hospital as he claimed.

Large dosages could also mean that you have a high tolerance of the drug too. For instance, people take 1 pain killer every 4 or 6 hours for headache pain. Since I have chronic allergy headaches, I take 4 pills at a time to gain relief, and follow up with 4 more after 4 hours. I am not taking them because I am an addict, but since I have to use them a lot, my body got used to the small dosages, and the small dosages do not work any more. So, I would think that because Michel used demerol after the burn for several days, by the time he did another procedure the small dosage would not work as well, so there would be an increase. He does not have a desk job where you can work with mild pain. He performs, which requires jumping and dancing, so imagine doing this with a small amount of a drug which will only take away a little bit of the pain and leave you with some pain so that you do not become addicted. Every time he moved, he would feel that throbbing pain and it would become worse. So then, the dosage is increased again, and the body becomes used to it again. Then, he gets off the drug, and goes for a procedure and get the drug again.

I feel certain life situations & procedures caused relapses.

Passy the plaintiffs are done, so the expert is for AEG. I guess he will show that Michael would not make a lot of money due to the drugs, cancellations. You know the usual reasons. The reasons for why Micheal would not make a lot of money, why he would not live for more than a week are basically the same. At least according to AEG experts.
 
Any news on the motions yet. I know it is early but maybe the judge worked over the weekend? Wishful thinking on my part.
 
Petrarose said:
Any news on the motions yet. I know it is early but maybe the judge worked over the weekend? Wishful thinking on my part.
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I check documents every night at 5 PM PST to see if there's anything new. Keep in mind even though a document might be filed sometimes scanning of it takes several days.
 
Petrarose said:
Bubs so now not only did Randy not go to Taiwan, but he also was not in the hospital as he claimed.

Large dosages could also mean that you have a high tolerance of the drug too. For instance, people take 1 pain killer every 4 or 6 hours for headache pain. Since I have chronic allergy headaches, I take 4 pills at a time to gain relief, and follow up with 4 more after 4 hours. I am not taking them because I am an addict, but since I have to use them a lot, my body got used to the small dosages, and the small dosages do not work any more. So, I would think that because Michel used demerol after the burn for several days, by the time he did another procedure the small dosage would not work as well, so there would be an increase. He does not have a desk job where you can work with mild pain. He performs, which requires jumping and dancing, so imagine doing this with a small amount of a drug which will only take away a little bit of the pain and leave you with some pain so that you do not become addicted. Every time he moved, he would feel that throbbing pain and it would become worse. So then, the dosage is increased again, and the body becomes used to it again. Then, he gets off the drug, and goes for a procedure and get the drug again.

I feel certain life situations & procedures caused relapses.

Passy the plaintiffs are done, so the expert is for AEG. I guess he will show that Michael would not make a lot of money due to the drugs, cancellations. You know the usual reasons. The reasons for why Micheal would not make a lot of money, why he would not live for more than a week are basically the same. At least according to AEG experts.
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I agree with what you are saying I also take the highest dose of painkillers, not because I am addicted but because I have a high tolerance, I have to take more pills and a higher dose to get some kind of an effect.
 
Petrarose said:
Bubs what is this medicine. It seems to be something to help with anxiety, because Cascio mention "to help prepare for the show." I wonder why he would be anxious about the show though? Then, he says the new doctor came the night of the first concert. Then, the family talked to Michael a couple of days before the show. How many shows were there for MSG?

OK so Dr. F working well with Michel, then Michael goes to New York, and he relapses. Frank claims the doc and himself could not babysit Michael anymore. That to me is a big problem. I understand the doc had a life, but he should have found a reliable & loyal person to keep Michael in check. Someone who would call him each day & see how he is doing. When you are treating any addiction, you simple do not leave the person high and dry with no support. Frank was not the right person, because he had other things to do.

Frank calling the family was not the right thing, because he KNEW Michael does not listen to them. You can't ask someone to help another, if the person in need of help does not recognize the authority of the helper. He needed to call someone Michael holds in high esteem & who Micahel would listen to, and we all know who that is.

Another question: Why did Michael relapse in New York? Is it that doing this show with the brothers was stressing him out? What was going on at that time that acted as a trigger? That is another problem with Dr. F. He was supposed to question Micahel and find out what situations acted as a trigger (he found out about Michael problem on the internet.). Then, he had to work with Michael with these triggers, because if he does not, when the situations occur again, the first thing the patient will do is look for the old methods of dealing with it, which is exactly what Michael did--Frank claims he went back to the same medicine.

It seems there was no plan in place. I get the feeling too that Frank and family would simple say Michel don't take that, go to rehab, or ask if he is on something, but non of them had a plan to help. No brother/sister said, let me call him each day, let me text him some daily support messages, etc. We don't hear that, and to me it is this form of person-oriented daily support that really helps. I think that is what Micheal needed, and I hope if I get into a situation like that, my family or close friends will be calling or emailing daily to check up on me. I notice something about Michel, and that is if he does not want you in his business he will say everything is OK. He did it to his family, to Kenny.
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One thing to keep in mind, Frank C I believe has said that MSG was his idea, so he had a lot invested in it. I got the feeling MJ did not really want to do it. Then there were problems with his family asking for $$ to appear and Jermaine being an issue to the point MJ said, if Jerm is being a problem, don't have him in the show. In the end, Jerm cooperated and was in the show.

Now I read somewhere that Joe had a press conference before the MSG shows and that was uopsetting to MJ. It's just in the back of my mind that Joe did something upsetting, but I do not have a source. Maybe someone else knows about this?

I agree that Frank made a huge mistake talking to the family.
 
I can believe Michael had issues with things at different times in his life and tried his best to deal with them. I feel most fans understand that but they don't punish him or stereotype him like others do. A lot of people who tend to say they worst and make him out to be some out of control person or some helpless baby are the people who hardly saw, spoke or had any contact with him for YEARS at a time. Not real reliable sorry. Michael was human and had his issues but I still believe and see that he was a great person with an enormous heart who cared so much of others and got little in return. He always gave people the benefit of the doubt yet it is never returned to him. I find that so annoying and frustrating to be honest. Also I believe that whatever issues Michael had should be kept PRIVATE and it's not the whole worlds business to know. He died because he trusted a DOCTOR to help him sleep. He wasn't an out of control addict but the treatment he was getting was making him sick. It's like everyone keeps forgetting what Murray did. Disgraceful.
 
jamba said:
One thing to keep in mind, Frank C I believe has said that MSG was his idea, so he had a lot invested in it. I got the feeling MJ did not really want to do it. Then there were problems with his family asking for $$ to appear and Jermaine being an issue to the point MJ said, if Jerm is being a problem, don't have him in the show. In the end, Jerm cooperated and was in the show.

Now I read somewhere that Joe had a press conference before the MSG shows and that was uopsetting to MJ. It's just in the back of my mind that Joe did something upsetting, but I do not have a source. Maybe someone else knows about this?

I agree that Frank made a huge mistake talking to the family.
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^^Jamba that information helps a lot. You see to me the triggers are critical. You have a person working though an addiction, and they are abandoned right in the middle of the people and situation that are triggers, without any sort of plan. Sometimes I think Michael biggest problem was not having a good woman in his life. I should have applied for that job. He would be sleeping nights; there would be no Muarry; the family would have to write an essay explaining why they wanted to see him & indicating the benefits they & Michael would receive from the visits. Plus I want footnotes in the essay showing how similar situations worked in the past. He would have the best business & legal firms working on his business. No Joe, Rowe, Weisner, etc. No leaches in the house visiting either.

The family and the media were a great source of stress for Michael. No wonder when he came from Ireland he was so relaxed and happy. Such a pity that state of well being began to unravel the minute Rowe started bothering him to have a show with Janet and brothers.

Ivy I forgot about the scanning process.

Hopefully the expert will be done today so we can move along with this trial.
 
Randy's deposition was full of hate and rage.. It was very eye-opening. He hates his brother for not including him in the will. Randy even made fun of MJ's weight saying he was 90 lbs.. How evil can one be? if anything MJ's weight was alarming and it's because Murray was making him sick. Randy will hopefully be punished for this bs he's pulled.
 
I've said from day one that MJ needed a good woman/wife in his life, someone who would take care of him. There is no way in the world a doctor would be putting my husband to sleep with a iv and bottles of anesthesia. MJ had no one looking out for him to weed away the snakes and leeches. Just listening to Murray he sounds like a nutcase, medical license or not. Did MJ's staff even do a background check on Murray to find out his medical skills and if he could do what he was hired to do? It's just a shame that MJ had no one looking out for him.
 
Can this be true, "The CPA also testified that Jackson's tours in the 1990s were not moneymakers. He said Jackson broke even on the Dangerous tour and lost $11.2 million on the HIStory tour."?
 
Aquarius said:
Can this be true, "The CPA also testified that Jackson's tours in the 1990s were not moneymakers. He said Jackson broke even on the Dangerous tour and lost $11.2 million on the HIStory tour."?
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too early to say without hearing the cross. I would personally be interested in hearing any charity donations and its effects on the income.

however generally speaking there would be significant difference between a gross revenue and net income. gross revenue would be number of tickets times ticket price. you would then have to reduce production costs, travel & lodging costs, equipment costs, tour personnel salaries, any fees and share of managers, promoters etc to come to the profit (or loss), then there will be taxes paid and you would arrive to the net income.
 
marebear said:
I can believe Michael had issues with things at different times in his life and tried his best to deal with them. I feel most fans understand that but they don't punish him or stereotype him like others do. A lot of people who tend to say they worst and make him out to be some out of control person or some helpless baby are the people who hardly saw, spoke or had any contact with him for YEARS at a time. Not real reliable sorry. Michael was human and had his issues but I still believe and see that he was a great person with an enormous heart who cared so much of others and got little in return. He always gave people the benefit of the doubt yet it is never returned to him. I find that so annoying and frustrating to be honest. Also I believe that whatever issues Michael had should be kept PRIVATE and it's not the whole worlds business to know. He died because he trusted a DOCTOR to help him sleep. He wasn't an out of control addict but the treatment he was getting was making him sick. It's like everyone keeps forgetting what Murray did. Disgraceful.
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marebear - I came here to say something similar. I have been struggling with anger and sadness all day and I have not been able to articulate what I need to say, to get stuff off my chest. Thanks for this.

I realise that a lot of my anger is selfish. I want to be able to grieve and celebrate Michael in peace, without constantly having to check newspapers and blogs to find out what other ugly 'revelations' have been issued all in the name of money, cause it sure ain't justice. I love Michael and there are a lot of things about his life that I am interested in. But there are also a lot of things that have nothing to do with me (or anyone else) and should not be broadcast for the whole world to dissect, criticise and condemn. I just hate that.

What really distresses me about this trial is that no-one gets to speak FOR Michael. I understand that the
nature of this case is such that a defense of Michael would not be possible. So people can feel free to speculate, assume, presume and say what they like without necessarily being challenged.

Jaydom - I really wish you would stop painting Michael as this hapless and helpless person who needed everyone else in his life to take care of him. He was a grown-ass man with 40 years in the industry. If he wanted to do a background check on Murray, he could have asked for it. Michael made choices and decisions that we may never understand or like, but they were HIS DECISIONS TO MAKE.

On a final note, I know we will keep coming back to the 'drug addict' thing and my personal view is that we cannot pretend that the connotation of words is not important. Connotation of certain words is why people are encouraged to be politically correct. I live on an island in the Caribbean and I hate being called a 'native' and I hate being considered part of 'the third world'. Both things imply poverty, ignorance and barbarism. So I really get why some fans react so defensively to the drug addict label. I think we all agree that Michael had dependency issues but was not a drug addict, in the popular and general sense of the word. Well, I hope we all agree on that!
 
Thus far not one AEG witness be it a doctor or a bodyguard has called Michael an addict. It was his family who did it. Randy's perplexing rage at his brother, however has done more damage to the Jackson case then anything AEG has done with there witness
 
It is always puzzled me how the family came so quickly out the door with the whole drug addict thing. Within hours of Michael's death, Oxman was going on and on about. It just seemed strange and unsettling to me.
 
TheChosenOne said:
stop painting Michael as this hapless and helpless person who needed everyone else in his life to take care of him. He was a grown-ass man with 40 years in the industry. If he wanted to do a background check on Murray, he could have asked for it. Michael made choices and decisions that we may never understand or like, but they were HIS DECISIONS TO MAKE.
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I couldn't agree more and this is the problem I have with this trial. Michael was an adult who hired/fired people (or had someone else do it for him) ALL the time. He did not suffer fools or incompetents, for no good reason. Although we saw this angel of a man who was a musical genius, he was also a savvy, brilliant businessman. No one gets to the pinnacle of the music industry as he did without being shrewd and smart. So, to hold someone (or especially a corporation) other than Michael and HIS DOCTOR responsible for his health seems 100% ludicrous to me. As Kenny Ortega testified--"Michael was responsible for his health" and I'm betting (hoping) that's why the jury applauded.

TheChosenOne said:
On a final note, I know we will keep coming back to the 'drug addict' thing and my personal view is that we cannot pretend that the connotation of words is not important. Connotation of certain words is why people are encouraged to be politically correct. I live on an island in the Caribbean and I hate being called a 'native' and I hate being considered part of 'the third world'. Both things imply poverty, ignorance and barbarism. So I really get why some fans react so defensively to the drug addict label. I think we all agree that Michael had dependency issues but was not a drug addict, in the popular and general sense of the word. Well, I hope we all agree on that!
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Agree again. Words matter and to loosely refer to Michael as a "drug addict" or as someone who had "addiction issues" infers something that's not accurate or fair. No one knows for sure to what extent he used medication after the Pepsi commercial. But one thing we do know for sure--the coroner's report was clear--he did not have the autopsy of a drug addict. The only drugs found in his system were the ones Murray gave him. Period.
 
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When people say he spent more than he earned look at what Michael had on his shoulders. He had to pay staff and sometimes they did not get paid. He had his household, his Mother's household the people in the house and plus I am sure whatever pennies he had in his pocket Katherine tried to suck from him
 
Today was a bore it seems. They spent most of the time arguing points and will continue with the arguments in the morning. We heard more or less the same thing from before with this witness. History lost money, Dangerous broke even, Michael spent too much, interest rates extremely high, etc. Then Panish arguing that what this expert is saying has already been covered, which I agree with. However, Panish did the same with his duplicate addict experts and dr testimonies. I always thought a big chunk of Michel debt came from acquisition loans, but I don't get a sense of that from the witness yet.

The witness today made a comment that Michel spent a lot on jewelry. Why that had to be acknowledge, I do not know. Whoever he bought this for must have been females at least, and maybe gifts. By the way how do they know what he bought. Did Michel keep receipts for personal purchases?

This witness was paid about 800,000 so AEG paid almost 2 million on 2 experts.

The interesting thing is that expert testimony on how much Michel would make can't take into consideration a change in behavior, right? So if Michael recognize that interest rates are too high and gets Branca to work on a better deal, and then he watches his spending, his forecast would change in the future. However, I guess these things are not taken into account since they only focus on past behavior.
 
One of the problems I have with the expert today & others is that they make statements about how much Neverland cost, but no one ever mention that Neverland was not merely a residence. It was created in mind to allow children & the sick to have a place to come to that was relaxing, healing, playful, etc. and Michael paid for all that. So Michel was paying for his home and and at the same time a "semi-public" place for the public to use free of cost. Visitors were fed there.

All you hear is Neverland cost X amount each year, and they give the impression that Michael had this extravagant property just because he likes to spend.
 
Well Neverland cost a lot no matter why Michael built it. And was that bought up did he not give up that place?
 
Justthefacts said:
Well Neverland cost a lot no matter why Michael built it. And was that bought up did he not give up that place?
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Yeah I know Neverland cost a lot. Yes, they brought up Neverland costs. But they talk about his spending & people need to know that the spending related to Neverland was not only for himself, but also involved a public service.

Actually I want to see how Panish handles the cross on this guy. I am getting a pompous attitude from him, so I want to see what happens.
 
Justthefacts said:
Well Neverland cost a lot no matter why Michael built it. And was that bought up did he not give up that place?
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Michael remained majority owner of Neverland even after the deal with Tom Barrack. He didn't give it up but closed it down.
 
What really distresses me about this trial is that no-one gets to speak FOR Michael. I understand that the
nature of this case is such that a defense of Michael would not be possible. So people can feel free to speculate, assume, presume and say what they like without necessarily being challenged.
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Completely agree
 
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