Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

[Virre]

wasn't that family reunion organised by Janet more around mid may ? that would be over a month before Michael passed, not 2 weeks.

yes the party was May 14th 2 days before Janet's birthday

I think he was at Carolwood too. Some follower fans said this way back. Don´t know if it´s true though.

 

[ivy]

Ivy give it a rest

I'm entitled to express my opinion and you are entitled to disagree. however you cannot disrespect other people or you cannot determine what or when they can post or not post. so actually you might want to chill out.

 

[crillon]

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 4h "Wherever we would go, there would be fans there," LaPerruque testified. He said fans wanted to meet MJ, take pictures.

LaPerruque: There was always a concern of kidnapping him or his children to hold for ransom.

LaPerruque explained he not only try to protect the client from outside sources, but from embarrassing himself.

LaPerruque said MJ had thousands of fans everywhere in the world. Chang showed a picture of LaPerruque helping MJ with a left foot casted.

Total time LaPerruque worked for MJ was 3 years. The only time he saw MJ under influence of drugs in 2001-2004.

About the Documentary "Living with Michael Jackson" by Martin Bashir. LaPerruque was present, thought MJ trusted Bashir.

Chang: Was he devastated for what he believed to be violation of that trust? LaPerruque: Very devastated!

LaPerruque said MJ was in pain after the release of the documentary. Chang wanted to play a snippet of the documentary, but changed her mind

Chang: You know what, because he (AEG attorney) was threatening to show other parts of it, I'll withdraw my request.

Chang: Did you believe the Arvizo charges to be false? LaPerruque: Correct. "I came out in full support of him," LaPerruque recalled.

LaPerruque asked how MJ reacted in regards to the accusations, when all he wanted to do was to take care of children.

LaPerruque: Yes, it devastated him. Chang: Was he emotionally and physically wrecked in pain? LP: Yes C: Have you seen him cry? LP: Yes

LaPerruque said he knew MJ had vitiligo and needed treatment. He said MJ complained of back pain.

Chang asked if most of the times LaPerruque heard MJ slur his voice on the phone was during the night. He said yes.

Chang: Could he have taken a sedative such as sleeping pill, or Xanax pill? LaPerruque: It's a possibility

Chang: Drink wine or vodka? LaPerruque: It's a possibility C: Or combination of drinking and sedatives? LP: Yes

LaPerruque never saw any prescription drug in MJ's room, never saw him hooked up to IV lines. He only saw MJ drink wine once in a plane

LaPerruque said he always had full access to MJ's room, had keys to his hotel room.

The security head said he would not be able to say MJ was addicted to Demerol or painkillers.

He knows MJ wanted to be clear and was motivated in the worse way. Chang: And you believed him? LaPerruque: I did

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 4h LaPerruque said the majority of time he traveled with MJ he wasn't under the influence.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 4h
Chang asked if LaPerruque saw MJ doing anything that could put the kids at risk, if he would've called Child Services. He said absolutely.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 4h
Chang: Were you very proud of working for MJ? LaPerruque: I was

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 4h
LaPerruque received phone calls from President Clinton, Elizabeth Taylor, Gregory Peck, Marlon Brando, world leaders looking for MJ

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 4h
Chang showed video of Liz Taylor presenting Michael Jackson. LaPerruque said MJ's fans were deafening, nothing like he had ever seen before.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 4h
Chang: How would you describe MJ that night? LaPerruque: He was fantastic Shows were on Sept 7 and Sept 10, 2001, day before 9/11.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 4h
LaPerruque said MJ was very down to earth, never bragged about all the awards he received.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 4h
Judge then adjourned trial. There is no court today, session resumes 10 am PT on Monday. LaPerruque ordered back to resume testifying

 

[marebear]

Everytime I hear how Michael felt betrayed by Bashir I want to smack this guy sorry. I don't think he cares or will ever realize the pain and damage he caused Michael. The bodyguard sounds respectful about Michael it seems. I am not sure what to think about the time Michael was unconscious. To know what happened there.

 

[jamba]

I want to reiterate my earlier point re high interest rates. Some of MJ's loan payments were interest only, meaning big payments that did not touch the principal.

Look at it this way, if he owed $400 million (debt) and the interest rates on that debt were 9.4%, which they were, that means he would have to come up with 40 million per year just in interest payments. This needs to be factored in to any idea of the income it would take for him to get out of debt.

I don't see Erk's analysis taking this into consideration.

 

[crillon]

Everytime I hear how Michael felt betrayed by Bashir I want to smack this guy sorry. I don't think he cares or will ever realize the pain and damage he caused Michael. The bodyguard sounds respectful about Michael it seems. I am not sure what to think about the time Michael was unconscious. To know what happened there.

Me too.

Tom Mesereau tells a story about Bashir calling him right after Michael's death to express his sympathy and he wasn't having any of it--would not return his call. He's told the story in interviews with MJ forums, but here's a radio interview of it:

 

[marebear]

I wouldn't return the call either.

 

[Petrarose]

someone on facebook is angry and wrote that they shouldn´t make this incident at the hotel about drugs since it wasn´t related to Michael taking pain medicine. That Michael would faint very easy and did it often because of anemia and low blood pressure. If he was sitting down on the floor and got up to fast he would just not get that black thing in front of your eyes as most people get, he would actually faint.

And I don´t get thing with slurred speech and all the "oh how terrible". My friends Mom takes strong pain medicine and sometimes if she doesn´t fall asleep and get the bright idea to call someone she doesn´t speak a word that you can understand. I´m not in denial or anything but they make it sound like he took so much drugs to get high and then started to call people and being so out of it because he got a fix.

Viree you see that is the thing that drives me crazy about this trial. I don't understand how anyone can say it shows how Michael died or answers questions, because the testimony does not include much context, dates, and reason why things are done. We only get the action and have no idea why the action took place. It is just as you point out. We get the faint and the mumbling, but I have no idea why he fainted or mumbled. It is all done to show that some drug caused it due to some form of addiction.

Does anyone know how old Prince/Paris would have been in 01 or 02. They must have been pretty young to know to call 911, and Dr. Muarry did not know. Those kids should have taught Muarry.

Another thing about the security officer, he claimed he never say drugs or alcohol, so when he was asked those list of questions like if Michael could have combined the drug with alcohol, etc., he should have said he does not know, rather than the following:

Chang: Could he have taken a sedative such as sleeping pill, or Xanax pill? LaPerruque: It's a possibility

Chang: Drink wine or vodka? LaPerruque: It's a possibility C: Or combination of drinking and sedatives? LP: Yes

LaPerruque never saw any prescription drug in MJ's room, never saw him hooked up to IV lines. He only saw MJ drink wine once in a plane



Then he only saw Michael drink wine once, so again his answers should have been I have no knowledge/I don't know. I guess the plaintiffs will go more into that.

Ivy based on how the security said that he found the dr when they travel, I am thinking that if Michael took something in the night from a dr, the security would be the go between. I think Michael would ask the security to call the dr., so the security would know a dr. was there. Even the assistant called nurse Lee, so it seems these calls were put through by the employee. That is why I am thinking that if the security did not call a dr. that night to give Michael anything, then no dr. was called into his room that night. I am just speculating here.

 

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[crillon]

I wouldn't return the call either.

Exactly. What Bashir did--which was reprehensible--changed the course of Michael's life.

 

[Petrarose]

^^Bashir claims he never meant him any harm and he is a good guy. At least TMez did not fall for the bait. It is obvious that Bashir knew what to show to make his documentary a buzz and that it would show Michael in a negative light. However, he did not care, because he wanted to be the one to bring the Michael down. I see he still has his US job & earning good money. Life is a mystery. How could people who try to be good, try to do the right thing & try to help others suffer so much, while some who try to do wrong things can succeed and prosper?

 

[crillon]

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 19h LaPerruque understood that MJ was working hard to battle the prescription medication dependency.

I am glad LaPerruque, who obviously admired & respected Michael, told the truth about the drug dependency. Doctors prescribed these medications for Michael primarily for pain relief and Michael wanted to be off of them. That he didn't get more competent help from the medical profession is heartbreaking.

 

[crillon]

^^Bashir claims he never meant him any harm and he is a good guy. At least TMez did not fall for the bait. It is obvious that Bashir knew what to show to make his documentary a buzz and that it would show Michael in a negative light. However, he did not care, because he wanted to be the one to bring the Michael down. I see he still has his US job & earning good money. Life is a mystery. How could people who try to be good, try to do the right thing & try to help others suffer so much, while some who try to do wrong things can succeed and prosper?

ITA. Bashir knew what he was doing and he knew what he wanted to say about Michael and edited the footage to fit his angle. That's what the British press have a reputation for doing and Bashir was trained in that environment. He's no journalist--he's a Murdoch lemming and it blows me away that MSNBC hired him after his shady past. Outrageous.

 

[Petrarose]

^^True, which is another problem I have with these doctors. They must have known that those painkillers are a problem for Michael. Is it that there is no other medication that works for pain, and that patients always have to get these addictive drugs? It seems Michel knew the drugs were addictive, and he needed them and at the same time he is trying to get off the addiction, so how does that work when you have to take them again when your back acts up? I would really like to hear all these doctors explain this, but I guess it will never happen.

 

[crillon]

^^True, which is another problem I have with these doctors. They must have known that those painkillers are a problem for Michael. Is it that there is no other medication that works for pain, and that patients always have to get these addictive drugs? It seems Michel knew the drugs were addictive, and he needed them and at the same time he is trying to get off the addiction, so how does that work when you have to take them again when your back acts up? I would really like to hear all these doctors explain this, but I guess it will never happen.

Yea, I agree totally. These doctors have gotten a free pass when they are the ones who prescribed these meds for Michael and caused the drug dependency in the first place! That the medical board is not investigating Klein et al is a curious thing, isn't it? It took the medical boards in CA & TX a LONG time to suspend the felon, Murray. It's a collusive group.

 

[8701girl]

wasn't that family reunion organised by Janet more around mid may ? that would be over a month before Michael passed, not 2 weeks.

Wasnt it for joe & katherine's annivasry?

 

[ivy]

Partial Deposition

- He's not sure about the date as they took multiple trips to Florida. But it might be before Blanket's birth because he remembers only 2 children. Timing of the incident could be morning because he's asked about if someone might visited Michael at the night and if he might not know about it.

- Michael's children finds Michael unconscious and can't wake him up and they call 911. The 911 call does not go directly to the fire department , it goes through hotel security.

- Hotel security calls La Perruque tells him that Michael's kids made a call to 911 saying they can't wake Daddy up. La Perruque calls the second bodyguard and goes into Michael's room - which is across the hall.

- He finds Michael on the hallway floor in his suite unconscious , the second bodyguard removes the children. La Perruque tries to wake Michael by shaking him and calling his name, he doesn't respond. La Perruque thinks Michael wasn't breathing so he breathes a couple of breaths. Then Michael seems to be breathing and soon after he becomes conscious but very groggy.

- La Perruque moves Michael to his bed, paramedics come and they look to Michael in his bedroom alone. La Perruque doesn't know what they said to Michael or what Michael said to them.

-La Perruque talks to the paramedics asking them to use Michael's alias and not his real name. Low blood pressure and recommendation of seeing his doctor is mentioned.

- Soon after paramedics leave Michael says it's time to go and they check out the hotel.

- there's a mention of a roundish pink bag called "the football". that bag was left in Florida and La Perruque was told it needs to come back to LA. So someone picks the bag up and brings it to LA. La Perruque says he has no idea about the contents of the bag.

 

[crillon]

^^^^Deposition raises more questions than it answers. Is this event important enough that they will call Prince to testify, or was he way too young to remember much? Does anyone else know what was kept in that "pink football"?

 

[bouee]

^^True, which is another problem I have with these doctors. They must have known that those painkillers are a problem for Michael. Is it that there is no other medication that works for pain, and that patients always have to get these addictive drugs? It seems Michel knew the drugs were addictive, and he needed them and at the same time he is trying to get off the addiction, so how does that work when you have to take them again when your back acts up? I would really like to hear all these doctors explain this, but I guess it will never happen.

I don't think there was anything else at the time to relieve physical pain (opiates), and I 'm not sure there is today either. That's the problem and why so many people become dependant. The difference bewteen drugs will be - I guess- the molecule associated with morphine, and the dosage of morphine/ opium related molecules.

Partial Deposition

- He's not sure about the date as they took multiple trips to Florida. But it might be before Blanket's birth because he remembers only 2 children. Timing of the incident could be morning because he's asked about if someone might visited Michael at the night and if he might not know about it.

So it goes back to 01 /early 02 : the same time period dr Saunders was testifying about. One of the incident he described was december 01 (double dose) and then Dr Farschian says Michal was addicted or had a problem with demerol when Blanket was born.

- He finds Michael on the hallway floor in his suite unconscious , the second bodyguard removes the children. La Perruque tries to wake Michael by shaking him and calling his name, he doesn't respond. La Perruque thinks Michael wasn't breathing so he breathes a couple of breaths. Then Michael seems to be breathing and soon after he becomes conscious but very groggy.

- La Perruque moves Michael to his bed, paramedics come and they look to Michael in his bedroom alone. La Perruque doesn't know what they said to Michael or what Michael said to them.

-La Perruque talks to the paramedics asking them to use Michael's alias and not his real name. Low blood pressure and recommendation of seeing his doctor is mentioned.

- Soon after paramedics leave Michael says it's time to go and they check out the hotel.

Sounds like low blood pressure, or at least it' s a possibility. Paramedics didn't take him to a hospital, wouldn't they do that if they suspected OD ? How long after did Michael recover ?

I don't understand the need to assume drugs everytime something happens. I'm not sure the jury will do that : AEG's story is full of holes, at least so far.

As Petrarose said, if the doctors gave him anything, there was a reason. That's also what Putnam said.

And this witness has been hurting the "secrecy" line of argument.

 

[Tygger]

MJ "intended to work" after the 50 dates but NOT in touring.

Jamba, your own posts state the dilemma Michael had in regarding loans and the larger interest rates on those loans. How would he satisfy these loans without touring? Ortega, Gongaware, Phillips (if I remember correctly), and Michael’s two oldest children have all stated Michael was going to tour worldwide after the 50 dates. What proof is there he would not tour?

he had the assumption that all earnings were speculative hence a calculation of zero. if Panish can demonstrate this expert tends to give low estimates the jurors might think the actual number must be higher than what this person says.

Ivy, Briggs did NO calculation because he believed Michael would not generate ANY income due to his debt, substance abuse issues, and that he would pass in a week as per half of a statement by the plaintiff’s expert. There is no calculation that could be done to equate Michael’s earnings to zero because his beliefs cannot be quantified. It truly may have been the most bizarre moment in this whole trial besides Faye’s theatrics in my view.

- there's a mention of a roundish pink bag called "the football". that bag was left in Florida and La Perruque was told it needs to come back to LA. So someone picks the bag up and brings it to LA. La Perruque says he has no idea about the contents of the bag.

Does anyone else know what was kept in that "pink football"?

Why do we have to always assume the worst?

Soundmind, agreed. Virre stated another suggested on Facebook it was low pressure and now we have Ivy’s summary of the deposition which supports that. Michael has a daughter. Could it be her pink football????

And this witness has been hurting the "secrecy" line of argument.

Bouee, agreed as per this tweet:
ABC7 Court News ‏@ABC7Courts
Putnam: Did you ever have an impression Mr. Jackson was trying to hide drugs from you?
LaPerruque: No.

It occured to me that plaintiffs are putting much more effort trying to prove how much MJ would have earned (in case they win and damages would high) than they try to prove AEG hired CM.

Bubs, I completely disagree. I took a moment to do a short calculation myself albeit not completely accurate. I counted 28 witnesses as per Ivy’s summary for the plaintiffs. I tried to classify the testimonies; again, not completely accurate. It is very clear the majority of witness and time spent was supporting the claim of negligent hiring of the negligent doctor which lead to Michael’s passing.

Only 6 out of 28 witnesses dealt with damages and four of them are Jacksons. This means 79% of witnesses testified for reasons other than damages.

Please feel free to re-classify any of the categories below or add witnesses for the plaintiffs' that were missed.

Negligence of the doctor: LAFD Paramedic Richard Senneff, LAPD Detective Orlando Martinez, Toxicologist Dan Anderson, Cardiologist Dr. Daniel Wohlgelernter, Medical Examiner Christopher Rogers, Dr. Charles Czeisler, Dr. Sidney Schnoll, Dr. Emery Brown

Michael’s Decline: Producer/Dancer Alif Sankey, Karen Faye, Kai Chase, Kenny Ortega

Negligent Hiring: Julie Hollander, Shawn Trell, Paul Gongaware, Randy Phillips (all adverse witnesses), Marty Hom, David Berman, Dr. Gordon Matheson, Tim Leiweke, Jean Seawright, Dr. Stuart Finkelstein

Damages: Michael’s son, TJ Jackson, Taj Jackson, Katherine Jackson, Arthur Erk, Peter Formuzis


Question please: if the defense is not successful, how will those who support the defense having a successful verdict explain their failure? If the plaintiffs were to be not successful, I can say it is because adverse witness put enough doubt into jurors’ minds that the doctor was not hired implicitly by AEG. I would not be able to contribute that success to the defense’s actual defense which is Michael was secretive about his issues.

 

[bouee]

@ Ivy : Quoting myself, because I did not get an answer for this :

By the way, I already asked a while ago , but I got no answer :
do you remember whose depo is this from ?

I took it from this post :

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...tory-Summary?p=3802439&viewfull=1#post3802439

 

[Tygger]

Quoting myself, because I did not get an answer for this :

Apologies, I do not know. This was Ivy's posting.

 

[bouee]

Apologies, I do not know. This was Ivy's posting.

Sorry, yes, it was directed to Ivy, I'll edit my post.

 

[Bubs]

@Petrarose
"Does anyone know how old Prince/Paris would have been in 01 or 02. They must have been pretty young to know to call 911, and Dr. Muarry did not know. Those kids should have taught Muarry."

Prince was born Feb 97 and Paris Apr 98, so very young.


"Ivy based on how the security said that he found the dr when they travel, I am thinking that if Michael took something in the night from a dr, the security would be the go between. I think Michael would ask the security to call the dr., so the security would know a dr. was there. Even the assistant called nurse Lee, so it seems these calls were put through by the employee. That is why I am thinking that if the security did not call a dr. that night to give Michael anything, then no dr. was called into his room that night. I am just speculating here."

He testified that nanny (Grace) and another security was there too. I'm thinking nanny Grace, she would know what was going on, but she gone to india or somewhere.

My turn to speculate, didn't Paris testify that sometimes nanny went to sleep MJ's bed? I was wondering if she did that in DW? Mike woke up, saw nanny, run away and fainted due the sheer horror :cheeky:

 

[Annita]

@ bouee

Not 100% sure but I think it`s from Jackson-expert Czeizler

BTW Jacksons tried to exclude Briggs. This was the decision from court.

Granted as to the income / value of MJ Estate and its effect on damages. Jacksons also agreed that they will not introduce post-death increase in the value of MJ Estate and argue that the increase is an indicator of MJ’s earnings had he lived.

Denied as to MJ’s future earning potential – media/ entertainment rights.

 

[LastTear]

@Tygger

Question please: if the defense is not successful, how will those who support the defense having a successful verdict explain their failure? If the plaintiffs were to be not successful, I can say it is because adverse witness put enough doubt into jurors’ minds that the doctor was not hired implicitly by AEG. I would not be able to contribute that success to the defense’s actual defense which is Michael was secretive about his issues.

You make it sound like battle lines have been drawn. lol

It's a tricky one because it's the whole trial I am against, so really I don't actually care who wins or loses, so probably wont spend much time considering where either side went wrong.

You know where I stand on this, if the plantiffs win then people who are already well provided for will get richer and AEG will have been told that they shouldn't have hired Murray, it doesn't even prove that they mistreated Michael. Justice? No. And I had best not start on restitution again.

Let me ask a similar question. If the plantiffs win - will you look back and think that the damage done to Michael was all worth it?

ETA: Spent a bit longer thinking about your question. I may just think that the jury feel that Murray was hired and that AEG should have known he could pose a threat, and that perhaps the jury believe that AEG should have actively supervised the doctor by knowing all treatments given to Michael.

 

[bouee]

ETA: Spent a bit longer thinking about your question. I may just think that the jury feel that Murray was hired and that AEG should have known he could pose a threat, and that perhaps the jury believe that AEG should have actively supervised the doctor by knowing all treatments given to Michael.

or that the jury thinks AEG could have done something about Murray- not necessarily knowing the "treatments" but knowing all those weird symptoms. AEG retained Murray's services in spite of that.

I was wondering if she did that in DW? Mike woke up, saw nanny, run away and fainted due the sheer horror?

that's funny

 

[AliCat]

I don't think Michael Jackson's former bodyguard, Michael La Perruque, really understood the strains of Michael's profession. David Fournier, testified that Jackson failed to follow his instructions, Michael Jackson went to a rehearsal for a Grammy show performance and sprained his ankle, he said. This was in 1993.

I think by the time Michael La Perruque was Michael Jackson's bodyguard, 2001-2004, Michael's body had gone through some major pummeling and it was taking its toll upon Michael Jackson. It seems the sprained ankle's were a common occurrence, may have been the same injury, the same place on Michael Jackson's ankle and it was becoming more and more painful, as each time his ankle developed another sprain.

What Michael La Perruque told publicly after Michael Jackson died, including the Dr. Drew Show, was more focused on what he observed about Michael Jackson's sedation, coming from a layman. http://www.hlntv.com/video/2011/08/23/michael-jackson-insider-hed-just-pass-out
http://watch.accesshollywood.com/vi...-prescription-drugs-july-1-2009/1311374498001

 

[Virre]

That someone on facebook is someone who knew Michael and was around, I don´t know anything else. Don´t get mad me, sorry I shouldn´t forward things like that though, sorry again.

 

[ivy]

Paramedics didn't take him to a hospital, wouldn't they do that if they suspected OD ?

in USA what paramedics can do with a conscious person is very very limited. Conscious people can refuse treatment even if it is against the medical advice and the paramedics cannot force treatment on such people.

I don't understand the need to assume drugs everytime something happens.

That's what AEG is trying to show that there were other instances and an overdose was likely - again it is about responsibility.

I don't see any problem with being realistic. Farshian testified that Michael wanted to get clean after Blanket was born, Michael had 5 implants put in his body. That shows that he had a problem before. This bodyguard talked about Michael being incoherent, nodding at meetings, we all learned about MSG incident. Those all show problems. A person that just faints most of the time usually wakes up on their own, this instance includes a lot more than a simple fainting in my opinion. Then comes a weird assumption that "if there was no pills in the room it wasn't drug related", how can you say that when it has been established that Michael did not take pills but made doctors give him injections.

I understand the desire to approach to this as "nah he just fainted" or "it wasn't drug related" or such, but you know that he seriously asked for help after this time period so it show that there must be an issue before he asked for help. If he was just fainting or unable to sleep he wouldn't go an insert an opiate blocker to his body 5 times. You can call it what you want, I call it being realistic.

and if it's not clear no he wasn't seeking a high, he had medical issues - such as his back pain- that he needed legit medicine for but at times he got dependent on them and might have required high doses.

Soundmind, agreed. Virre stated another suggested on Facebook it was low pressure and now we have Ivy’s summary of the deposition which supports that. Michael has a daughter. Could it be her pink football????

it's not a pink football. It's a small round pink bag that Michael traveled with and the bodyguards referred as "the football". The implication in the partial transcript is that there was a drug bag that Michael traveled with. As this bodyguard did not know the contents of it per his deposition it might not come up.

athletes and people exercise a lot have low blood pressure, Michael did too according to Slavit's records. To faint, just having a low blood pressure isn't enough, it needs to fall down below the regular for that person levels. Plus if Michael fainted every time he had stood up to fast, I would have expected him to faint after every time he did a multiple 360 spin. A pregnant friend of mine used to faint at her last trimester due to low blood pressure, she would wake up herself within a minute and I have never seen her "groggy" afterwards.

@ Ivy : Quoting myself, because I did not get an answer for this :

Berman I think. why?

That someone on facebook is someone who knew Michael and was around, I don´t know anything else. Don´t get mad me, sorry I shouldn´t forward things like that though, sorry again.

a name would be better. if you can't give a name and if this person is anonymous or a secret then it's better not to mention such.