Open General discussion - Katherine Jackson vs AEG

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As I would much rather think that Michael fainted it pains me to ask why he would need mouth to mouth? Also if someone faints are they really unconcious for so long, kids can't wake him, call 911, hotel security wakes bodyguard, bodyguard gets there. I don't know much about fainting but I thought you weren't out for long. I hate typing all this - urrghh I hate this trial.

It is good thing to think all testimonies as objectively as possible. I know it is painful to think those scenarios when we talk about MJ, but we are not doing service to anyone trying to bury the head in the sand and not think about other possible explanations. We'll see what plantiffs are going to ask him if there is going to be more to it.
 
As I would much rather think that Michael fainted it pains me to ask why he would need mouth to mouth? Also if someone faints are they really unconcious for so long, kids can't wake him, call 911, hotel security wakes bodyguard, bodyguard gets there. I don't know much about fainting but I thought you weren't out for long. I hate typing all this - urrghh I hate this trial.

did he say he was not breathing ? he said he checked for pulse found it , now if he was breathless as you assume for so long , the kids found him , could not wake him up , called 911 , hotel security woke bodyguards , bodyguards got there , do you think he would have been just fine ?
 
It is good thing to think all testimonies as objectively as possible. I know it is painful to think those scenarios when we talk about MJ, but we are not doing service to anyone trying to bury the head in the sand and not think about other possible explanations. We'll see what plantiffs are going to ask him if there is going to be more to it.

it seems the worst scenario is always assumed first when it comes to MJ , anything else is not considered "objective".Putnam stated in his opening statement the head of security would speak about this incident to bolster their arguments of MJ doing drugs . That was so different from what actually he testified to .
He did not say it was drug related , so why bring it up in this case ? only as part of their smear campaign , to further dehumanize the victim .

He talked about his SEVERE back pain , his fighting to remain sober . But all of that is just ignored , let's focus on the most tabloidish peice which contrary to what AEG claimed was not drug-related nor the head of security ever claimed that as they claimed in their opening statement .

Remind me of Sneddon's motions during the 2005 case.
 
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ok so Panish will say LePerreque didn't see any drugs around and the emts said he was fine so what next?
 
and if LePerreque did see drugs around and doctors doing unethical things why didn't he report them? He's an ex-cop for God's sakes
 
He said he knew Jackson had severe back pain and difficulty sleeping. Despite seeing the entertainer impaired, La Perruque said he never saw Jackson take any drugs or saw any signs of medications lying around.
Jackson did try to get help, he said. "He fought very hard to be sober," La Perruque said. "He fought very hard not to be dependent on these prescription medications."

He never claimed he saw anything .
 
He never claimed he saw anything .

No he didn't but he knew because he said he talked with Mj and his doctors.
LaPerruque: He knew I was there, he knew I saw him. There were times he fought very, very hard not to be dependent of those medications.
"He fought very hard to not be dependent on prescription medication," LaPerruque testified.
One day, LaPerruque said MJ told him he was clear. 'I just want you to know I'm going to stay this way,' LaPerruque said MJ told him.
"He would have the doctors treating him to get him off the harder narcotics," LaPerruque said.
Putnam asked how he knew and he said he'd have discussions with the doctors and they would tell him.

Btw, I assume that bolded part was when he got Dr F to treat him for addiction.
About doctors discussing with him about MJ, what about Hippa?


and if LePerreque did see drugs around and doctors doing unethical things why didn't he report them? He's an ex-cop for God's sakes

Where did you got that? He testified that he never saw any drugs around, nor saw MJ taking anything, and he did not say a word about doctors doing unethical things.
 
it seems the worst scenario is always assumed first when it comes to MJ , anything else is not considered "objective".Putnam stated in his opening statement the head of security would speak about this incident to bolster their arguments of MJ doing drugs . That was so different from what actually he testified to .
He did not say it was drug related , so why bring it up in this case ? only as part of their smear campaign , to further dehumanize the victim .

Are you angry at me or at AEG? I wrote many times that that it could be anything.
Perhaps I should have written: explore other possible scenarios objectively.

I know AEG is going to show MJ in bad light and wrote that too.
 
did he say he was not breathing ? he said he checked for pulse found it , now if he was breathless as you assume for so long , the kids found him , could not wake him up , called 911 , hotel security woke bodyguards , bodyguards got there , do you think he would have been just fine ?

He said he performed mouth to mouth.

ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 7h
"He became conscious, I wouldn't say alert, but conscious," LaPerruque said. Putnam asked if he was groggy. He said yes.
Expand
ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts 7h
Putnam: Did you have to do mouth-to-mouth?
LaPerruque: I did
 
I am confused.. So LePerreque is saying the doctors willingly talked to him about MJ's condition? Mike should've been put into a treatment facility for his pain issues. All these doctors did was pump him with pain meds. They didn't care.
 
^^^ Quite a rude awakening for poor Michael! I don't know exactly what happened that day and I would rather think that Michael simply fainted, the reality is that it doesn't matter what we conclude the tabloids will spin it their way. We haven't had the cross on this witness yet, it may become clearer later.
 
Is defence finished with bodyguard and today it's plaintiffs turn question him?
ABC7 kind of abruptly finished their tweets, usually they what is going to happen next, and they didn't even post who is going to be next witness.
 
Is defence finished with bodyguard and today it's plaintiffs turn question him?
ABC7 kind of abruptly finished their tweets, usually they what is going to happen next, and they didn't even post who is going to be next witness.

twitter jail I guess... (tweet limit exceeded) .

So far another useless witness for AEG.
 
^^^^ I have no idea, I noticed the same - probably sent to twitter jail again.
 
This is how you stage an intervention:

Provides specific examples of destructive behaviors and their impact on the addicted person and loved ones
Offers a prearranged treatment plan with clear steps, goals and guidelines
Spells out what each person will do if a loved one refuses to accept treatment


Don’t be coming into someone’s home like Indiana Jones. <o:p></o:p>
 
  1. ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts21m
  2. LaPerruque said MJ seemed happy to be there at the party. He was not incoherent or had slurred speech.
  3. ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts22m
    Hello everybody! Got sent to twitter jail two times yesterday! Ugh! Here's the rest of yesterday's testimony of Michael LaPerruque.

    ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts20m
    LaPerruque: I did ask 'Mike, you'relooking skinnier than I've ever seen you. You need to get meet in your bones.' He laughed.

    ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts19m
    LaPerruque said MJ told him he was rehearsing a lot, thus the weight. He said MJ seemed excited about going to London.

    ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts16m
    Putnam: Were you surprised he passed? LaPerruque: Yes

    ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts14m
    "It just caught me off guard," LaPerruque explained.

    ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts13m
    Putnam asked if there was anything LaPerruque thought he could've seen at the meeting two weeks prior but didn't. He answered

    ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts12m
    Outside the presence of the jury, LaPerruque approached Ms. Jackson, hugged her and cried. They had a conversation, she handed him a tissue.

    ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts11m
    Jacksons' attorney, Deborah Chang, did the cross examination of LaPerruque following the afternoon break.
  4. ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts6mLaPerruque worked for the LA Sheriff Department for 22 years. He said MJ being a high profile, would not be able to go out in public.
  5. ETA Wanted to update news page with the rest but comp playing up, sorry.
 
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wasn't that family reunion organised by Janet more around mid may ? that would be over a month before Michael passed, not 2 weeks.
 
Justthefacts;3880427 said:
This is how you stage an intervention:

Provides specific examples of destructive behaviors and their impact on the addicted person and loved ones
Offers a prearranged treatment plan with clear steps, goals and guidelines
Spells out what each person will do if a loved one refuses to accept treatment


Don’t be coming into someone’s home like Indiana Jones. <o:p></o:p>

the bodyguard told Access Hollywood previously MJ wanted to raise his kids , did not want to take any part in projects with the family that's why he kept his distance , no surprise both parties did not want the jury to hear this vital piece of information .
 
wasn't that family reunion organised by Janet more around mid may ? that would be over a month before Michael passed, not 2 weeks.

yes the party was May 14th 2 days before Janet's birthday
 
  1. ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts21m
  2. LaPerruque said MJ seemed happy to be there at the party. He was not incoherent or had slurred speech.
  3. ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts22m
    Hello everybody! Got sent to twitter jail two times yesterday! Ugh! Here's the rest of yesterday's testimony of Michael LaPerruque.

    ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts20m
    LaPerruque: I did ask 'Mike, you'relooking skinnier than I've ever seen you. You need to get meet in your bones.' He laughed.

    ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts19m
    LaPerruque said MJ told him he was rehearsing a lot, thus the weight. He said MJ seemed excited about going to London.

    ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts16m
    Putnam: Were you surprised he passed? LaPerruque: Yes

    ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts14m
    "It just caught me off guard," LaPerruque explained.

    ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts13m
    Putnam asked if there was anything LaPerruque thought he could've seen at the meeting two weeks prior but didn't. He answered

    ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts12m
    Outside the presence of the jury, LaPerruque approached Ms. Jackson, hugged her and cried. They had a conversation, she handed him a tissue.

    ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts11m
    Jacksons' attorney, Deborah Chang, did the cross examination of LaPerruque following the afternoon break.
  4. ABC7 Court News ?@ABC7Courts6mLaPerruque worked for the LA Sheriff Department for 22 years. He said MJ being a high profile, would not be able to go out in public.
  5. ETA Wanted to update news page with the rest but comp playing up, sorry.


where's the rest
 
^^^^ No problems, I wanted to update the news thread but it's just jumping around and freezing. I'm sure Ivy will do it shortly.
 
Tygger;3880228 said:
Ivy, what calculations did Briggs bring to this case???? Briggs said Michael would not make any monies due to his debt and substance abuse; thus, he had no calculations.

he had the assumption that all earnings were speculative hence a calculation of zero. if Panish can demonstrate this expert tends to give low estimates the jurors might think the actual number must be higher than what this person says.

jamba;3880250 said:
How is it rational for the plaintiff experts to testify to these 2 things:

1) MJ would have been dead within a week under Murray's treatment even if he had not died on the 25th and

2) he would have gone on to earn 1.5 billiion dollars until age 66????

Jackson lawyers have the assumption of if the murray was removed from the mix by never being hired or being fired, all the health problems would disappear and Michael would be healthy and continue to work with no problems. That's another reason why AEG brings other events, past episodes, other doctors to argue that with or without Murray, with or without TII concerts & AEg involvement this could have happened ...

Briggs is making no future earnings "calculations" b/c he is saying that doing so is SPECULATIVE--and he is right!

Legally I would think TII 50 concerts and any other deal that was signed - such as Bravado merchandise - was pretty certain, for rest does fall under speculative IMO.

For example if TII was successful and if Michael was able and willing he could have continue to do a world tour, however he might not have as well. you would never know.

Bubs;3880255 said:
It occured to me that plaintiffs are putting much more effort trying to prove how much MJ would have earned (in case they win and damages would high) than they try to prove AEG hired CM.

and AEG trying to reduce the damages. To me the reason is simple, who hired murray question is really 50-50 and there's not much to bring to the table than the already known basics, that Michael asked for him, the contract wasn't signed, the contract would be between AEG and Murray and so on. They can't really add any more to it and jury can decide either way so that's why they are focusing on other steps in this case, mainly negligence, responsibility and damages.

Petrarose;3880258 said:
Bubs about the bodyguard testimony: he claims he did not see drugs or alcohol, so was Michael at some dr's office before that and got some medication to make him faint, or did he faint for reasons that are non-drug related?

Soundmind;3880310 said:
he was mumbling probably due to lack of sleep

Bubs;3880333 said:
LaParraque did testify that usually when they travelled,MJ asked him to find hotel doctor, so it could be that hotel docs gave something to MJ to take before he goes to sleep, or it could be one of these doctors that travelled with them gave something for sleep, or it could be totally unrelated to drugs.

Soundmind;3880374 said:
whenever I have a low blood pressure I faint , happened many times to me . The bodyguard said they was no drugs around , no alcohol so why make it more serious than it really was , the paramedics were called he was fine .

LastTear;3880380 said:
As I would much rather think that Michael fainted it pains me to ask why he would need mouth to mouth? Also if someone faints are they really unconcious for so long, kids can't wake him, call 911, hotel security wakes bodyguard, bodyguard gets there. I don't know much about fainting but I thought you weren't out for long. I hate typing all this - urrghh I hate this trial.

Unfortunately we can't determine why he fainted but I must say that just because drugs wasn't around doesn't mean it was not drug related. A lot of people - even this bodyguard - testified that doctors were called and in most instances the drugs were given by the doctors through injection. Michael wasn't pill popping. So it is impossible to determine what this is. also mouth to mouth, conscious but not alert doesn't sound like just fainting. In my experience people who fainted due to dehydration or such becomes alert almost instantly within a minute or so.

also paramedics treatment of conscious and unconscious people differ significantly. for example 911 was called for a kid who almost drowned and unconscious but before the paramedics came one person was able to revive the kid, so when the paramedics came they just checked the kid and could only take him to the hospital by the consent of the family. If when they arrived the kid were unconscious it would have been a different scenario.


Virre;3880371 said:
someone on facebook is angry and wrote that they shouldn´t make this incident at the hotel about drugs since it wasn´t related to Michael taking pain medicine. That Michael would faint very easy and did it often because of anemia and low blood pressure. If he was sitting down on the floor and got up to fast he would just not get that black thing in front of your eyes as most people get, he would actually faint.

who is this person? how can this person conclude that there wasn't a doctor involved who gave a shot and left - hence no drugs around the room. and anemia can be treated easily with supplements and if Michael fainted that easily he wouldn't be able to do the tours and those multiple spins.

And I don´t get thing with slurred speech and all the "oh how terrible". My friends Mom takes strong pain medicine and sometimes if she doesn´t fall asleep and get the bright idea to call someone she doesn´t speak a word that you can understand. I´m not in denial or anything but they make it sound like he took so much drugs to get high and then started to call people and being so out of it because he got a fix.

slurred speech suggest being under the influence of something, whether it is pain medicine or sedatives or alcohol. some might also argue that it was just because of being tired.
 
Bubs;3880255 said:
It occured to me that plaintiffs are putting much more effort trying to prove how much MJ would have earned (in case they win and damages would high) than they try to prove AEG hired CM.
------------
Panish: Who put the bullets in the gun?
Briggs: I believe he said it wasn't an appropriate question.
Panish: The witness wants to argue with me and not answer the quesitons.
Judge: He's answering the questions.

Tactics from Panish, and foolish one too.
------------
Judge: Mr. Panish, why are you gesturing me?
Panish: Ms. Strong is making faces at me, I didn't want to say anything.
Jurors groaned...
Strong: There has been many misrepresentations against me and my colleagues.
Judge: I don't think making faces is something I should even have to acknowledge it. Just ignore it.
Panish concluded his cross examination

Jurors can see Strong's face whether she was making faces at Panish, and if they don't see her doing it, they are not going to like Panish.
----------------
LaPerruque: I was in my room, received phone call from hotel security that someone had called 911 from MJ's hotel room, like young children.
LaPerruque: I grabbed Mr. Jackson's keys and found Prince and Paris crying. They were crying saying they couldn't wake up daddy.
LaPerruque: I was able to go into the room, had called security partner to meet at the room as well to take the two children to nanny's room
LaPerruque: I found Mr. Jackson in the hallway in the suite proned, unconscious.
LaPerruque: I had to check for pulse, turned him over, shook him, ultimately was breathing. I was able to wake him up, took him to his room.

Putnam: Did you have to do mouth-to-mouth?
LaPerruque: I did
P: Did you see any drugs?
LP: No
P: Alcohol?
LP: Not that I recall


This is just heartbreaking for his kids to find their father unconscious and not being able to wake him up :cry:
I quess this is what defense meant when they said MJ could have happened anytime before the trial started, and they had MJ security man to testify for it.
Waiting for media news about this, and they will be salivating with it the whole weekend.
--------------------
Putnam: Did you speak with anyone about that incident before?
LaPerruque: No
P: Did you ever consider letting the tabloids know?
LP: No

Is this a lie as? Didn't he talk about this on Access H show, or did we hear about it from Ivy's deposition?
----------------
LaPerruque remembers in 2001 Jackson family attempting an intervention. MJ asked him to come up to the ranch right away.
LaPerruque: He told me that his family would be coming over to the rancho to speak with him and asked me to interface with his relatives.
"It was requested by Mr. Jackson," LaPerruque said.
Putnam: He wanted to make sure his family members didn't come thru?
LaPerruque: Yes
LaPerruque: I was at the front gate, saw private helicopter flying very low over Neverland. Randy Jackson was in the helicopter.
"He demanded to see Michael," LaPerruque recalled. "I told him that MJ said he didn't want to see any of his family members at the time."


I'm sorry but Randy is just too hilarious. He does nothing what normal people would do. What is wrong to taking a car and driving in? Did he think that if he arrives with car, MJ won't let him in, but if he comes on helicopter, he is allowed to see MJ:doh:
Too funny that they big mouths are going to sink their own case against AEG. AEG is doing exactly what they said in their opening statements.
"Putnam says Michael even withdrew from his own family and even his family did not know what was going on at that time. Putnam says at various times Jacksons tried to do interventions but they failed. He says Michael was an addict and no matter how much you want to help an addict you can&#8217;t help them unless they want to help themselves. Putnam says the jury will hear Jacksons testify that Michael told them he was fine and they too thought it was true."

I don't know if jurors know the real reason MJ not wanting to see his family. it wasn't like MJ withdraw from his family because he wanted to hide his addiction from family, but he just didn't want to see or hear them begging him to do thing he didn't want to do.
--------------------
He stopped in the beginning of 2008. Work began in August of 2007, got paid in September and didn't get paid anymore until 2008.
LaPerruque spoke with MJ. "He said he was very embarrassed not being able to pay me, he said he was going to make it right, apologized."
This was in November 2007. He still didn't get paid.

Didn't security told to Kai C when she wasn't being paid, that not to mentioned to MJ?
MJ wasn't able to pay his staff, but KJ said MJ didn't have money problems and she was happy camper as long as she got her support.


Btw, LaParraque mentioned that kids nanny was traveling with them. I thought that seemingly 2001-2004 was bad time for MJ (in regards drugs). I see the only side who doesn't want to see Grace on stand is plaintiffs. Makes me wonder the reason of her disappearance, especially when she disappeared after what happened to Paris?

Heartbreaking to hear that Prince/Paris went through a previous scare that their father was passed out and may even have been dead (had they not called for help, who knows?). I don't think this looks good to the jury--they will likely blame Michael and see that this event was kept a secret. Now, clearly, Michael is not responsible for his own death--the incompetent and reckless Murray is to blame--but the jury may see that Michael may have taken drugs with at least one other near-fatal event and AEG is far removed from any responsibility for what they did not know. If I were on the jury, I'd have a tough time holding AEG responsible.

Re/Randy in the helicopter flying over Neverland so he could what???--make a surprise landing on the property to force a conversation with Michael? ROFL. It's so hilarious if it wasn't so pathetic. Randy is a "piece of work" and not in a good way. And, the side show continues to this day.
 
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I think the Jackson attorneys need to point out that no one knows why Michael passed out. And a lot depends on when Michael last got anything from a doctor.
 
I think the Jackson attorneys need to point out that no one knows why Michael passed out. And a lot depends on when Michael last got anything from a doctor.

I think the attorneys can only do that by questioning LaPerruque again who testified he didn't see any alcohol or pills. Unfortunately, because LaPerruque had to perform mouth-to-mouth to revive Michael, I think the jury will conclude this was more than just "fainting" and with Michael's history of being given drugs for pain relief with the alcohol mix LaPerruque testified to, they will likely assume that was the cause. That can happen to ANYONE if there's a bad reaction BTW, so if they can show Michael was under doctor's care/orders it will provide reasonable doubt to counter-balance it for the jurors.
 
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The issue with the payment of the loans is important b/c due to MJ's status as a high-risk person, from the bank's perspective, his loans had very high interest rates--I believe over 10% or around there, 9.4%. His loan payments on the interest alone were huge and he was not able to meet them, which is why he was in default in various ways (as in the Neverland situation) and was facing a big balloon payment in late 09. The estate was able to negotiate the interest rates down to 4% o 4.5%.

The interest rates were kiling MJ and he would have to take out another loan to meet the previous loans, all while pilling on more interest rate and fees. This need to be considered in factoring in his financial picture. It's really not what you owe as much as what are your loan payments, and that is based on interest rate. Look at CC rates when you use the cash payment option--23% or more--this is outrageous. Look at a cc bill where it estimates how much interest you will pay if you only pay the minimum each month. That tells you you will pay 3 or 4 times more over time for the loan amount due to paying off your loans over time, and with a high interest rate it gets worse.

@Jamba:
In principle I agree with above.
But I'm not sure, wheter I understand this right: "The interest rates were kiling MJ ..."

Yes, the %-rates were usurious interests. This is true. But this alone did not killing Michael. Not until he must read the claims

- January 2009 John Landis filed suit against Michael, claiming he's owed royalties for his work on the Thriller-Video and related spin-offs.

- March 04, 2009 MJJ Productions, files a lawsuit in Los Angeles Superior Court on against Julien's Auction House.
(it is one day before Michaels announcement!)

- May 05, 2009 Ola Ray (Michael's partner in the Thriller-Video) files a lawsuit against Michael over unpaid royalties

- May 07, 2009 Raymone Bayne files a lawsuit against Michael about 46 Millions US-Dollar

- June 10, 2009 AllGood files a lawsuit against Michael about 40 millions US-Dollar minimum

These were taking from Michael his breath.
And (imo!) at least Bayne and Allocco were good friends with Michaels birth-family. In the hindsight for me it seems as "ordered" to throw Mj in a corner. sorry for that...
 
Unfortunately we can't determine why he fainted but I must say that just because drugs wasn't around doesn't mean it was not drug related. A lot of people - even this bodyguard - testified that doctors were called and in most instances the drugs were given by the doctors through injection. Michael wasn't pill popping.

Ivy, he was asked whether he remembered there was a doctor around at that time and he said NO .

If drugs were not around nor alcohol , no doctor was around , but drugs still could be the reason why ? The explanation you gave yesterday when justthefacts said MJ could not have been addicted to demerol because there were gaps between the visits, Was "just because it was not in the medical records does not mean he was not taking them" Why do we have to always assume the worst?

I have to ask , has anyone so far from the list of doctors or bodyguards testified MJ was not suffering physically when he took the meds ?
 
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