Michael - The Great Album Debate

[OnirMJ]

Please, don't tell me that the unreleased demo of the dead legend cost nothing. It would be an absurd.

Yes, it costs nothing for the Estate and Sony to release them. They just need to put them on the CD or on itunes.

I don't know what are you trying to say. Read again what you wrote:

"Do you realize that this cost a lot more money that finish product because it's additional product and the material for another product. I don't understand why anybody with little common sense would sell it all together at once."

It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Rudolf]

The vibrato is so distinctly different in Cascio tracks. It is actually annoying me. I've never heard such vibrato in any MJ song. The lack of deepness in voice. It sounds like much younger person is singing. Yes, MJ used to have soft and high vocals but listen to Best Of Joy. Cascio vocalist voice sounds flat to me. But I won't start that all about pronunciation and accents because I haven't analysed all this and I won't. I'm just expressing my point of view as a casual MJ listener. I can't really believe some kind of digital processings could've changed MJ's voice THAT much that many fans can't even recognise him. And MJ didn't even need that. He could sing clearly and great all in one take the old fashioned way. Autotune and all that IMO is for someone that can't really sing.

 

[OnirMJ]

The vibrato is so distinctly different in Cascio tracks. It is actually annoying me. I've never heard such vibrato in any MJ song. The lack of deepness in voice. It sounds like much younger person is singing. Yes, MJ used to have soft and high vocals but listen to Best Of Joy. Cascio vocalist voice sounds flat to me. But I won't start that all about pronunciation and accents because I haven't analysed all this and I won't. I'm just expressing my point of view as a casual MJ listener. I can't really believe some kind of digital processings could've changed MJ's voice THAT much that many fans can't even recognise him. And MJ didn't even need that. He could sing clearly and great all in one take the old fashioned way. Autotune and all that IMO is for someone that can't really sing.

And one more very important thing. There is no autotune, melodyne, processing, pitch correction, change of tempos.. any computer software in the world that can change pronunciation and accent, and make person who can sing really well to sound like a person who is an amateur tone deaf singer.

 

[Arklove]

And one more very important thing. There is no autotune, melodyne, processing, pitch correction, change of tempos.. any computer software in the world that can change pronunciation and accent, and make person who can sing really well to sound like a person who is an amateur tone deaf singer.

Agreed....and even if that "amateur tone deaf singer" really IS MJ, then Eddie should be ashamed of himself for releasing the songs sounding like that...To me, that shows he doesn't respect MJ as a person and an artist. He didn't THINK before he sold those songs...THAT is what makes me so angry about the whole thing...

 

[elapentela]

Yes, it costs nothing for the Estate and Sony to release them. They just need to put them on the CD or on itunes.

I don't know what are you trying to say. Read again what you wrote:

"Do you realize that this cost a lot more money that finish product because it's additional product and the material for another product. I don't understand why anybody with little common sense would sell it all together at once."

It doesn't make sense to me.

After MJ's death any "unreleased" recording (singing, talking, laughing, etc. - with the proof of the authenticity) will be on the market in the future in different forms. Smart people, who are able to wait will get the fortune for the smallest thing. I hope you can understand now what I mean.

 

[elapentela]

Agreed....and even if that "amateur tone deaf singer" really IS MJ, then Eddie should be ashamed of himself for releasing the songs sounding like that...To me, that shows he doesn't respect MJ as a person and an artist. He didn't THINK before he sold those songs...THAT is what makes me so angry about the whole thing...

Many fans want to have everything. Even authentic farting sound. Again at least 2 mill. people is happy with Michael album. In future (like after 10 years, when Eddie will decide to sell what he is hiding now) with all additional material (proofs of authenticity) there will be a lot more happy buyers. If you don't understand a psychological approach, let me to explain.
Imagine that you lost someone close to you, family member or a friend. It's natural for people to look for staff they didn't know or see about the person. It doesn't matter if it's not perfect and it's not familiar. And remember that something what is ugly for you can be beautiful for others. It's exactly like MJ himself. Fans think he was beautiful and sexy and non fans claim he was opposite.

 

[Arklove]

Many l fans want to have everything. Even authentic farting sound. Again at least 2 mill. people is happy with Michael album. In future (like after 10 years, when Eddie will decide to sell what he is hiding now) with all additional material (proofs of authenticity) there will be a lot more happy buyers. If you don't understand a psychological approach, let me to explain.
Imagine that you lost someone close to you, family member or a friend. It's natural for people to look for staff they didn't know or see about the person. It doesn't matter if it's not perfect and it's not familiar. And remember that something what is ugly for you can be beautiful for others. It's exactly like MJ himself. Fans think he was beautiful and sexy and non fans claim he was opposite.

It's not about US as fans and what we want. It's about MJ as an artist.

 

[ivy]

Yes, Cascios have a hotel. They have 4 children. There was MJ with his 3 kids. And then there was Grace. That is 11 people. Anyone else? Maybe Porte stayed few nights when they worked long hours on those songs recording Michael's vocals through PVC pipe and in the shower. Why did they put him to sleep in that basement/studio if there was one more empty room then?

they have $1.5 Million house that's close to 6000 square feet. Given that the average 3 bedroom house is 2000 square feet, think it like they have 3 houses. Public records show similar houses in the neighborhood starting from 6 bedrooms and up and with 8 to up to 20 people occupancy.

In case you didn't know Cascio's are / were independently wealthy long before Michael's death / songs release. ( Like according to public record they bought their house in 1993. )

 

[elapentela]

It's not about US as fans and what we want. It's about MJ as an artist.

Unfortunately you won't be able to change anything. It is like it is. Your only choice is not buying the staff you don't like. For me Michael Jackson always will be one of the greatest artist ever and I want to buy his every new "sound"(even telephone conversation) but released officially. I'm especially interested in everything after the trial because it had to change him in some way.

 

[kreen]

And one more very important thing. There is no autotune, melodyne, processing, pitch correction, change of tempos.. any computer software in the world that can change pronunciation and accent, and make person who can sing really well to sound like a person who is an amateur tone deaf singer.

Doubters exagerate these so-called differences in pronunciation/accent : some of it is just in their imagination, some of it is due to Porte being all over the tracks. Listening to doubters, you'd think the Cascio singer had some sort of thick serbo-croatian accent or something. And then you listen to their audio comparisons, and you're like, "uh? That's your big proof?"

 

[elapentela]

20 million, not 2. It is MJ for you. Great for you. You can also listen Mamacita, Let Me Let Go and other classics and enjoy yourself. But in reality, it is not Michael Jackson.

And about Keep Your Head Up (MJ or not). That is one of the worst songs I've ever heard. Lyrics are so stupid and vocals are so week.

This is your opinion. My opinion is totally different so I enjoy to listen to the KYHU all the time. And because I can make a decision what many people will listen through the speakers in the place I work so others have to listen too. So far no one complained.

 

[OnirMJ]

For me Michael Jackson always will be one of the greatest artist ever and I want to buy his every new "sound"(even telephone conversation) but released officially. I'm especially interested in everything after the trial because it had to change him in some way.

Me too. I want to buy everything he ever recorded. But I don't want to buy something he never recorded. They should have released the instrumentals for the songs that MJ co-wrote. I would buy that. They could have released James Porte demos, like Ne-Yo said that he will release his songs that he wrote for Michael. That would be interesting to hear. But not this. This is unacceptable. I would rather buy real James Porte & Ne-Yo demos than fake Michael Jackson songs. In that case I could buy all Jason Malachi albums and pretend that it is Michael Jackson's new songs.

 

[kreen]

As for KYHU, for me it is one of the worst. Not the worst, that would have to go to Fall In Love and Water.

KYHU is very obviously, of the 3 Cascio songs on "Michael", the one that sounds closer to the "trademark" MJ voice that everybody in the world thinks of when they think of MJ : high-pitched, sweet, with "emotional" singing and falsetto, etc. That is demonstrated by the fact that it is the one song that many doubters felt could include some actual MJ vocals, and also by the fact that regular reviewers of the CD, operating outside of the whole authenticity debate, singled out Monster, BN and HT as having over-processed vocals, but never KYHU.

So when you say that, of those three songs, it is actually the one that sounds the LEAST like MJ, you're exhibiting a classic defense mechanism. Because it is the one song that most threatens your conviction, you over-compensate by claiming that it is actually the one that LEAST threatens it. It's classic, and we all do it.

This free psychology lesson was provided to you by kreen.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Doubters exagerate these so-called differences in pronunciation/accent : some of it is just in their imagination, some of it is due to Porte being all over the tracks. Listening to doubters, you'd think the Cascio singer had some sort of thick serbo-croatian accent or something. And then you listen to their audio comparisons, and you're like, "uh? That's your big proof?"

If you are not expert in languages you cannot claim that linguistical characteristics are one's imagination. If you are, then you'd come up with an explanation instead of undermining those characteristics.

 

[SoCav]

I do not care about what other people think, Jason's vocals on ballads, when his voice has to carry the song and he cannot hide behind fancy production, are always the worst to me too. The insincerity, the absolute fakeness and lack of real emotion in his voice make my skin crawl.

Then again, it was blatantly obvious to me that it was not MJ on the uptempo tracks as well.

Many fans want to have everything. Even authentic farting sound.

Yes. Authentic please.

 

[Chamife]

It sounds like some sound effect on MJ's voice. That is one line. In Cascio songs we are talking about all verses, bridges and choruses (and even some ad-libs that are not pasted from previous MJ recordings) on all 12 songs! In Monster all the lines sound the same so I don't know what difference are you hearing in that line. And remember that we are not talking about the sound effects here, we are talking about colour of the voice, pronunciation, accent and singing skills. That singer on Cascio songs can't sing. Just listen those week ad-libs on Monster or whole Keep Your Head Up.



We are not having "superhuman ability", we just have our own human ears and brains and we do not trust in everything Branca/Sony says.

And of course, 'Shout' is not 'YO OWDINAIWY WECOWD'..

Read this on Gearslutz (great stories and info about Michael);

I was fortunate enough to work with MJ early in my career. He was an incredible artist. Talented beyond your wildest dreams. Extremely generous, and a hard worker. I actually went from a staff assistant at the Hit Factory in NYC to freelance engineer under Swedien and MJ. They were due to start in Los Angeles when the Northridge earthquake hit so they moved to New York. One room was all Bruce, the second room was the writing room. I started assisting Bruce's writing partner Rene Moore. I would track stuff with Rene, and Bruce would come in and tell me what I did wrong, sit in for a few hours and set us straight. After a couple months MJ arrived and the entire tour rig was moved in along with Brad Buxer, Andrew Scheps, and Eddie Delena. I continued to assist them until the whole crew moved to L.A., they decided to take me with them. I would assist Bruce during the day, and help out every where else at night - assisting, engineering, programming, and on one song playing guitar. We had two rooms at Record One, and two rooms at Larrabee where I met John. At one point in NYC we had just about every room at the Hit Factory. The crew was great, and I learned so much from all of them. I learned to engineer from Bruce Swedien, John, and Eddie, and got to sit in with producers like MJ, Jam And Lewis, Babyface, David Foster, Teddy Riley, and Dallas Austin.

I was actually asked to leave the project early on because there were too many people around and MJ didn't know me. Luckily, I was rehired about 10 days later. At the wrap party MJ apologized profusely, and expressed his gratitude. Truly the most sincere man you will ever meet.

Some random memories:


One morning MJ came in with a new song he had written overnight. We called in a guitar player, and Michael sang every note of every chord to him. "here's the first chord first note, second note, third note. Here's the second chord first note, second note, third note", etc., etc. We then witnessed him giving the most heartfelt and profound vocal performance, live in the control room through an SM57.

He would sing us an entire string arrangement, every part. Steve Porcaro once told me he witnessed MJ doing that with the string section in the room. Had it all in his head, harmony and everything. Not just little eight bar loop ideas. he would actually sing the entire arrangement into a micro-cassette recorder complete with stops and fills.

At one point Michael was angry at one of the producers on the project because he was treating everyone terribly. Rather than create a scene or fire the guy, Michael called him to his office/lounge and one of the security guys threw a pie in his face. No further action was needed . . . . .

During the recording of "Smile" on HIStory, Bruce thought it would be great if Michael would sing live with the orchestra. But of course, we didn't tell the players that. We set him up in a vocal booth off to the side. They rehearsed a bit without vocals in, then during the first take Michael sang, just about knocked them out of their chairs.

His beatboxing was without parallel, and his time was ridiculous.

His sense of harmony was incredible. Never a bad note, no tuning, even his breathing was perfectly in time.

Once, while we were taking a break, I think we were actually watching the OJ chase on TV, there was a news program talking about him being in Europe with some little boy. I was sitting next to the guy while the news is making this crap up. He just looked at me and said this is what I have to deal with.

I spent close to 3 years working with him, and not once did I question his morals, or ever believe any of the allegations. I wasn't even a fan then. I saw him interact with his brothers kids, other people's children, and at one point my own girlfriend's kids. I got to spend a day at Neverland with them. A completely incredible human being, always looking for a way to make all children's lives better. Every weekend at Neverland was donated to a different children's group - children with AIDS, children cancer, etc., and most of the time he wasn't there.

He was simply living the childhood he never had. In many ways he never grew up.

I was assisting Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis while they recorded the background vocals for "Scream" with MJ and Janet. The two of them singing together was amazing. Super tight, no bad notes. One part after another. When they took a break they sang the showtunes they used to sing as kids. Again, perfect harmony. Mj refused to sing the "stop f*ckin' with me part" because he would NOT curse.

I was the tape op for the recording of the background vocals on "Stranger in Moscow". Scared the hell out me. Michael was dropping in and out on syllables, rearranging the notes and timing as he put it down. No Pro Tools at the time, just 2" tape, and my punches.

I erased a live keyboard overdub that he played one night. He came in the next morning, replaced it, and never uttered another word about it.

I was there when Lisa Marie was around. They acted like two kids in love. Held hands all the time, and she hung out at the studio for quite a while. I never questioned their love for each other.

We recorded a Christmas song during the summer of '94 that needed a children's choir. Michael insisted that the entire studio be decorated with xmas lights, tree, fake snow and a sled for their recording. And he bought presents for everyone.

The last weekend of recording on HIStory he came to me and Eddie Delena, and said "I'm sorry, but I don't think any of us are going to sleep this weekend. There's a lot to get done, and we have to go to Bernie on Monday morning". He stayed at the studio the entire time, singing, and mixing. I got to spend a couple quiet moments with him during that time. We talked about John Lennon one night as he was gearing up to sing the last vocal of the record - the huge ad libs at the end of "earth song". I told him the story of John singing "twist and shout" while being sick, and though most people think he was screaming for effect, it was actually his voice giving out. He loved it, and then went in to sing his heart out. . . .

Later that night, while mixing, everyone left the room so MJ could turn it up. This was a common occurrence during the mixes, and I was left in the room with ear plugs, and hands over my ears, in case he needed something. This particular night, all the lights were out and we noticed some blue flashes intermittently lighting up the room during playback. After a few moments we could see that one of the speakers (custom quad augspuergers) was shooting blue flames. Mj liked this and proceeded to push all the faders up . . . .

MJ liked hot water while he was singing. I mean really hot !!!!! It got to the point that I would melt plastic spoons to test it.

Bruce and I were talking about walking to the studio everyday in NYC, and what routes we took. Michael looked at us and said we were so lucky to be able to do that. He couldn't walk down the street without being harassed. It was a sad moment for all of us.

The studio crew got free tickets to the Janet show so we all went right from work one night. About halfway through the show we see this dude with a long beard, dressed in robes dancing in the aisle behind. I mean really dancing . . . it was Mj in disguise. Kind of like the costume Chevy Chase wears in Fletch while roller skating.

He got one of the first playstations from sony in his lounge . . . we snuck in late at night to play the games that hadn't been released yet.

A couple people on the session hadn't seen Jurassic Park while it was out, so MJ arranged a private screening for us at Sony.

He was a huge fan of Nine Inch Nails Downward Spiral . . . .

I was lucky enough over the course of 3 years to have access to the multitrack masters for tour prep, videos, and archive purposes. To be able to pull these tracks apart was a huge lesson in production, and songwriting. A chance to look into the minds of geniuses.

Of all the records I've worked on, MJJ was the only company to give platinum award records.

One day we just all sat in the studio listening to his catalog with him for inspiration. He loved the process, he loved the work.
__________________
Rob Hoffman

When you read the bolded parts, it's is pretty unbelievable that when he was older his voice suddenly needed pitch-correction and autotune and whatever. My opinion is that these talents don't leave you when you get older. You got it or you aint got it.

 

[SoCav]

Of course, Chamife (btw, those Gearslutz posts from the people who worked with MJ are a joy to read, aren't they?).

I watched the Mexico Deposition for the first time in ages last week. MJ sings from time to time in the court room, as he explains his creative process (sadly, this is actually one of the best insights into his songwriting that we ever got). His voice was not in good condition because he had a concert the night before he gave the deposition. It was, as we all know, also a terrible time in his life. Yet he still sounds undoubtedly like Michael Jackson. And he sounds a million times better than the run-of-the-mill boyband reject that sings the Cascio tracks.

 

[Jesta]

Continuing on with my "fake tracks released during Michael's lifetime" series, let's look at yet another set of tracks falsely attributed to having Michael Jackson on vocals.

We've all heard of The Jackson 5's very early work, right? Big Boy is pretty much the first song that Michael ever sang in a recording studio. Aside from the two most famous tracks from these sessions (the aforementioned Big Boy and We Don't Have To Be 21 [To Fall in Love]), most of the recording that took place in that short, short time between 1967 and 1968 was thought to be lost... Until 1995. I believe Gordon Keith (the founder of Steeltown) or some guy affiliated with him found the missing recordings along with a ton of unopened 7" singles of Big Boy. Coinciding with the release of HIStory, a compilation album of these songs was made with the tongue-in-cheek name of Pre-History. Seems like every MJ fan's dream, right? To have Michael's first recorded moments. Hell, most of the material sounds like studio rehearsals, which is even better! I even have one of these albums, and early-era Michael is hardly my forte.

HOWEVER, there was a fraud that was committed on this album. For you see, the two opening tracks - the songs meant to blow us away and show off the quality of the album - were not performed by Michael Jackson and the Jackson 5. No, instead they were performed by another group under the Steeltown label: Ripples & Waves [;us Michael. This group was in no way affiliated with the Jackson Family or any of their members, and yet their songs made it onto the album that introduced the world to Michael's primordial recordings. The compiler fucked up.

So what happened when this was discovered? Absolutely nothing. The compiler of the album didn't comment on it, though I do seem to remember that there was a court case of some kind between one of the compiler and someone regarding this album, but I'm not sure of any details. The point is, no-one publicly admitted to the mistake and the album died out. But on the plus side, re-issues of the album under different titles have emerged over the years, some with slightly varying set-list (there is no definitive album with every single known track, sadly). Hell, I even have one of them, as does love is magical.

The re-issue of the Steeltown Sessions that I own

So are we sensing a pattern here in how people act when they seriously screw up something like this? Cold silence. It's not the best solution by any means, but at least it's an attempt to let their mistake die rather than bringing it up time and again to show their true ignorance of the situation. Hell, even Michael owned a copy of Pre-History with the fraudulent tracks.

 

[Chamife]

KYHU is very obviously, of the 3 Cascio songs on "Michael", the one that sounds closer to the "trademark" MJ voice that everybody in the world thinks of when they think of MJ : high-pitched, sweet, with "emotional" singing and falsetto, etc. That is demonstrated by the fact that it is the one song that many doubters felt could include some actual MJ vocals, and also by the fact that regular reviewers of the CD, operating outside of the whole authenticity debate, singled out Monster, BN and HT as having over-processed vocals, but never KYHU.

So when you say that, of those three songs, it is actually the one that sounds the LEAST like MJ, you're exhibiting a classic defense mechanism. Because it is the one song that most threatens your conviction, you over-compensate by claiming that it is actually the one that LEAST threatens it. It's classic, and we all do it.

This free psychology lesson was provided to you by kreen.

I do not care about what other people think, Jason's vocals on ballads, when his voice has to carry the song and he cannot hide behind fancy production, are always the worst to me too. The insincerity, the absolute fakeness and lack of real emotion in his voice make my skin crawl.

Then again, it was blatantly obvious to me that it was not MJ on the uptempo tracks as well.


Yes. Authentic please.

Ditto Socav.

"Because it is the one song that most threatens your conviction".

Lol at your psychologylessons, Kreen... Luckily you aren't a psychologist. After finishing our sessions, I'd be a lost cause, ROFLMAO!!

Of course, Chamife (btw, those Gearslutz posts from the people who worked with MJ are a joy to read, aren't they?).

Heavenly.

 

[SoCav]

Interesting Jesta. I agree that silence is never the best solution, but do think there are two crucial differences between Pre-History and 'Michael' that make this cold silence tactic annoying but not too problematic in the former case, but grossly unsatisfying in the latter case.

-Pre-History was a rather obscure compilation album, 'Michael' was the first posthumous release for the biggest artist of all time and marketed as such. I have no clue what the sales of the former are, but obviously it is no comparison to 'Michael'. I doubt even most fans are aware of the Pre-History compilation.
-Most importantly: the mistake in the case of Pre-History is that whoever compiled the set accidentally picked two (at the time) almost 30-year old tracks that were not authentic from the Steeltown archives. It was an honest mistake. Ripples & Waves obviously never set out to pass off their songs as Jackson 5 tracks. Unfortunately, the Cascio tracks are not just an honest mistake.

 

[Jesta]

Interesting Jesta. I agree that silence is never the best solution, but do think there are two crucial differences between Pre-History and 'Michael' that make this cold silence tactic annoying but not too problematic in the former case, but grossly unsatisfying in the latter case.

-Pre-History was a rather obscure compilation album, 'Michael' was the first posthumous release for the biggest artist of all time and marketed as such. I have no clue what the sales of the former are, but obviously it is no comparison to 'Michael'. I doubt even most fans are aware of the Pre-History compilation.
-Most importantly: the mistake in the case of Pre-History is that whoever compiled the set accidentally picked two (at the time) almost 30-year old tracks that were not authentic from the Steeltown archives. It was an honest mistake. Ripples & Waves obviously never set out to pass off their songs as Jackson 5 tracks. Unfortunately, the Cascio tracks are not just an honest mistake.

I agree with you on both factors (though not to the extent regarding the awareness of the sessions. I think a decent amount of fans know about the sessions, but have not necessarily heard anything from them). But at the same time, whether it was an honest mistake could be up to interpretation. OK, let me rephrase that: I think the motivation for including the two fraudulent tracks on the compilation was the same for including the Cascio tracks on "Michael": they were high quality, complete tracks.

Now, I have to use that term to apply to different aspects of these tracks. The Waves & Ripples tracks were recorded professionally (compared to most of what you hear on any of these albums) and were likely very vocally complete tracks (I haven't heard them recently, but I can imagine that they are). Likewise, the Cascio tracks - while lyrically and vocally weak - do have complete vocal tracks, which is somewhat of a rarity considering how Michael recorded vocals during the creative process. The compiler of Pre-History likely put the two Waves & Ripples tracks on the album out of the good faith that they were two more professionally recorded tracks. I believe SONY (with the reluctance of the Estate, given McClain's protests at the inclusion of the tracks) also put the tracks on "Michael" in the good faith that they were vocally complete tracks and were among the last complete things that Michael recorded. My personal theory is that Eddie Cascio is ultimately to blame for presenting these tracks and proceeding to lie adamantly about the origins and conditions of the tracks to further sell them (and I believe that it was SONY who pushed for them on account of them being more vocally complete than the average MJ out-take), which is the sole defining difference between these two releases.

It's also worth nothing that - after a little more research - it appears that it was The Jacksons themselves that filed a lawsuit over the compiler of the album... Well, Michael apparently wasn't involved in the lawsuit. But I believed that the lawsuit was quickly settled and the compiler of the album sent a DVD to the brothers, personally apologizing for what had happened. But again, no public admission.

 

[144000]

See, you're already wrong right there at the beginning. We KNOW Cascio/Porte sent to a sound engineer 4 of those songs to be mixed and given to MJ on his London trip. So MJ didn't "record" 12 songs. He laid down incomplete guide vocals for 12 songs. And we know he wasn't "happy" because they were all meant to be re-rerecorded for real in London.

You say no work tape exist. That's not true. No work tapes have been heard publicly. Not the same thing.

The Estate feel the songs are real, and the Jacksons feel they can't sue. So while the public may not have proof, those guys have, and that proof convinces THEM, which is good enough for me.

Eddie went on Oprah wth his whole family to defend the tracks. He's then stayed quiet, porobably for legal reasons. If it's a hoax, he's pretty ballsy to go on national TV and lie, with his own flesh and blood with him. And his family is a bunch of liars and fraudsters. Which I have no reason to believe they are, but feel free to accuse innocent people : hey, it's not like your beloved MJ ever suffered from that...

why do you refer to him as "'your?' beloved MJ"?

 

[WildStyle]

This is becoming a joke. I have to step away from this mess for a while. Michael Jackson sounds like Michael Jackson. If you can't hear the difference between the person singing KYHU and Michael's voice, I really don't know what to tell you. You're missing the true depth and beauty (and technique and ability) of one of the greatest vocalists of all time if these two people sound alike to you. I hope you don't think of Michael as a regular run of the mill singer. He was extraordinary. I hear these singers on these TV talent shows that everybody goes crazy over and to me 90% are really nothing special. It is truly a rare occurrence for a special, unique, brilliant vocalist to appear on the scene. An Amy Winehouse for example. If you listen to her whole discography, she was an extremely skilled singer. A lot of depth. Sam Cooke (a song of his just came on)... incredible. Michael is in that league. Really, to me, he's even on a different level to them. As the kids say today, he was a beast. I don't know... enjoy your "Michael Jackson" songs. If you can't hear it, that's on you. But do not try to tell other people what they hear or why they are hearing it, because trust me, you are dead wrong in your analysis. The people that can tell the difference will continue to try to bring what was done in the dark into the light.

 

[144000]

This is becoming a joke. I have to step away from this mess for a while. Michael Jackson sounds like Michael Jackson. If you can't hear the difference between the person singing KYHU and Michael's voice, I really don't know what to tell you. You're missing the true depth and beauty (and technique and ability) of one of the greatest vocalists of all time if these two people sound alike to you. I hope you don't think of Michael as a regular run of the mill singer. He was extraordinary. I hear these singers on these TV talent shows that everybody goes crazy over and to me 90% are really nothing special. It is truly a rare occurrence for a special, unique, brilliant vocalist to appear on the scene. An Amy Winehouse for example. If you listen to her whole discography, she was an extremely skilled singer. A lot of depth. Sam Cooke (a song of his just came on)... incredible. Michael is in that league. Really, to me, he's even on a different level to them. As the kids say today, he was a beast. I don't know... enjoy your "Michael Jackson" songs. If you can't hear it, that's on you. But do not try to tell other people what they hear or why they are hearing it, because trust me, you are dead wrong in your analysis. The people that can tell the difference will continue to try to bring what was done in the dark into the light.

i'll go further. Michael was the best. better than all those you mention. and also..he was that special rarity..the triple threat plus one. that extra one was A and R. No wonder so many wanna piggy back on him. the thing that insults me most about all this is the leech mentality. the old fashioned start from the ground up mentality isn't considered important anymore. I've said it before, but it's worth repeating. but back to what i'm saying. Michael is the first time i ever thought a pop singer was better than all opera singers. I don't think the people that take this lightly, understand. i've never been captivated enough to play a song, and if my mind was busy interrupting me by thinking something, beyond my control, and it caused me to miss an inflection from Michael's singing, i got extremely frustrated, and stopped the tape, cd, file, or whatever, and started it again, so i could hear his inflection, and NOT miss it. No other singer in history ever did that to me, before, or since. That includes Stevie Wonder.
Suffice it to say..there is so much more than the 'technical' aspect, going on here. And there really is no use in trying to kill myself explaining it over and over to a person who wishes not to hear it. I'm too busy setting record for most repeat buys of an artist's 'old' song, in history. Because that 'old' song, is always something from Michael Jackson. The believer's idea of this, shall i say, doesn't do any of that for me. I listen to 'Butterflies' i get into that obsessive compulsive behavior i just told you about. I do it with 'Unbreakable'. I do it with 'Billie Jean'. I do it with 'Heaven Can Wait'. I do it with 'Speechless'. I do it with 'Remember The Time'. I don't do this with anybody else. I certainly don't with that Cascio stuff. I don't even 'buy' that stuff for free. Nor listen to it for free. I don't even have the energy to illegally download it.

 

[Arklove]

I have to say that I love the last two posts. Michael Jackson was something special. IS something special.

Michael always said to feel the music. It's always about feeling. That's what made him so unique, so special, and be the type of artist to evoke that type of emotion from millions around the world. In saying that, if he WAS NOT of this stature, I doubt ANY of us would be even discussing this issue as long as we have.

Now, I know some believers think it's silly to go with instinct or feeling. But I equally think it's silly to explain away with myriads of reasons why that voice sounds the way it does on the Cascio tracks. Why do we need to do that to identify his voice?

To me, I only have to listen to the voice on the Cascio tracks to know it's not him. We KNOW it's MJ singing Billie Jean or Speechless, or Earth Song, or any other song. As sure as I am of him singing those songs, I am just as sure it's not Michael on those Cascio tracks. And I have felt the same way since hearing that voice on Breaking News for the first time. I'm sorry, but it's as simple as that for me.

To those who are trying to explain to ME why I am hearing what I'm hearing, or not hearing, or whatever with some sort of pseudo-psychoanalysis, please don't even bother. It's actually a waste of your time.

 

[StellaJackson]

Oh what's the point. I'd get more sense talking to a brick wall.

 

[Jesta]

Oh what's the point. I'd get more sense talking to a brick wall.

The point is that there is no point. It's a moot point now. All this shit happened in 2010, the Estate are trying to forget and yet the show still goes on. We know the tracks are fake, and yet we are powerless to do anything about it. We know the Estate fucked up, and they know it too. What would be a more interesting and productive discussion is what to do if we ever have irrefutable and comprehensive evidence to the fraud? How would we go about presenting it? Would such a thing be enough for a court case? Who do we launch the case against, specifically? As in, who has the bigger burden of guilt here: the Estate and SONY for releasing it or Eddie for fabricating and selling it?

Personally at this point, I wouldn't care if this entire thing went unsolved and the tracks were forgotten about, or at least seen in the same light as Bela Lugosi's stand-in for Plan 9 From Outer Space, or the Waves & Ripples tracks on Pre-History.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

See, you're already wrong right there at the beginning. We KNOW Cascio/Porte sent to a sound engineer 4 of those songs to be mixed and given to MJ on his London trip. So MJ didn't "record" 12 songs. He laid down incomplete guide vocals for 12 songs.

Your post is going astray from what I was saying. I wasn't talking of who sent which song to whom as this is clearly not the issue at all. I was talking about who recorded the songs before sending them to anyone. Eddie claims himself that MJ was ready to release those 12 songs and that he worked hard every day. So what if the 4 songs were sent for a mix!? It doesn't change a thing about who recorded them initially.

Regarding your claim that the "guide vocals laid down by MJ are incomplete" are in complete (no pun intended) contradiction with Eddie's claim. So, this indicates that either you know better than Eddie or that Eddie lied or simply that you actually know nothing at all. This latter being the most logical, we get back to my argument that Eddie was the only witness, and as MJ is dead, it's rather a convenient situation for him.

we know he wasn't "happy" because they were all meant to be re-rerecorded for real in London.

You claim to "know" a lot of things, yet all the things you "know" contradict Eddie's claims.

You say no work tape exist. That's not true. No work tapes have been heard publicly. Not the same thing.

I claim that the worktape doesn't exist on the basis that nobody claimed to have heard it. You claim that it exists despite the fact that not only you haven't seen or heard it, but nobody else had seen it or heard it. So I don't know how you know it exists, unless you blindly believe what Roger Friedman wrote (although he himself didn't claim he heard it at all).

And if it existed I highly doubt that they'd keep it secret for no reasons and also, I highly doubt they'd hire forensics (to do what? To tell them who's on that supposed worktape too?)

The Estate feel the songs are real, and the Jacksons feel they can't sue. So while the public may not have proof, those guys have, and that proof convinces THEM, which is good enough for me.

Wrong. The executors of the Estate gave green light to release the tracks after being fooled. And regarding the Jacksons currently "being not able" to sue doesn't make the songs authentic for one bit.

If George Bush is directly responsible for millions of innocent people killed in the gulf despite the fact that he knew there were no weapons of mass destruction, not suing him doesn't make George Bush an innocent man.

Wake up, we live in a world where perfectly organized crime, fraud and corruption do exist and where a bad guy have all the chances to win and even dominate over good and sometimes naive people. This is not a Hollywood movie with a super hero and happy ending.

Eddie went on Oprah wth his whole family to defend the tracks. He's then stayed quiet, porobably for legal reasons. If it's a hoax, he's pretty ballsy to go on national TV and lie, with his own flesh and blood with him. And his family is a bunch of liars and fraudsters. Which I have no reason to believe they are, but feel free to accuse innocent people : hey, it's not like your beloved MJ ever suffered from that...

Your memory is extremely selective and short. When it comes to MJ and his money, many seemingly innocent people and "well caring friends" have had guts to lie or disappoint MJ. Some of them did it when MJ was alive, some have done it now that he's dead.

And, as a doubter and MJ defender, I have two words for you when it comes to MJ and his legacy:

zero tolerance

 

[Pentum]

New example showing how it's the same person singing:

http://soundcloud.com/pentum/agaiiiii-i-i-i-n

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

New example showing how it's the same person singing:

http://soundcloud.com/pentum/agaiiiii-i-i-i-n

It's just your imagination