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Michael - The Great Album Debate

elapentela said:
In my opinion he was productive enough.
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this is the post where you say opinion. the others, you say, are logic. Humans are not machines. no matter what their craft it's not logical to assume that their humanness might not, at one time or another, go in a different direction, no matter how passionate they are about something. there are things i'm passionate about, but i don't always keep the same routine, with those things.
 
144 said:
this is the post where you say opinion. the others, you say, are logic. Humans are not machines. no matter what their craft it's not logical to assume that their humanness might not, at one time or another, go in a different direction, no matter how passionate they are about something. there are things i'm passionate about, but i don't always keep the same routine, with those things.
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For many people not keeping the same routine means getting into hot mess. Humans who want to be in shape or to maintain their craft above the average will work more than average humans. That's simple. Usually that's the reason why some humans are achieving more and some less.
 
MJ did use the studio in his stay with the Cascio's. Thriller 25. There is no evidence he used it for anything else.

Why does Michael sound exactly like himself on WBSS 2008, and sounds like some other dude on the 12 Cascio songs, even though they were allegedly both recorded in the same time period on the same equipment? Why, why, why?
 
WildStyle said:
MJ did use the studio in his stay with the Cascio's. Thriller 25. There is no evidence he used it for anything else.

Why does Michael sound exactly like himself on WBSS 2008, and sounds like some other dude on the 12 Cascio songs, even though they were allegedly both recorded in the same time period on the same equipment? Why, why, why?
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Tell 'em that it's human nature...
 
WildStyle said:
MJ did use the studio in his stay with the Cascio's. Thriller 25. There is no evidence he used it for anything else.

Why does Michael sound exactly like himself on WBSS 2008, and sounds like some other dude on the 12 Cascio songs, even though they were allegedly both recorded in the same time period on the same equipment? Why, why, why?
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Because Taryl said so...
 
kreen said:
Stella has said only three people need to be involved for the hoax to be possible : Eddie, James and the singer. Well, that's not true. The recordings supposedly took place in a definite time period, and in a definite place -- and this place happens to be the Cascio family's own home.

So everybody living in that home during that definite time period -- the father, the mother, and unless I'm forgetting someone, at least the younger brother and the younger sister -- would have to be aware either of superstar Michael Jackson spending time downstairs with their own son/brother recording music, OR of superstar Michael Jackson living with them but NOT spending time downstairs recording music.

The following discussion CANNOT have happened in 2009 :

Eddie : "Hi mom and dad! Remember when MJ lived with us for several weeks in 2007?"

Mom and dad : "Of course, son."

Eddie : "Remember how he and I never mentioned then he spent time with me recording, and how you never saw him recording in your own home, and how he was always doing other things than recording with me? Well don't be surprised, but I'm coming out with 12 songs he actually recorded with me while you knew he was not recording with me."

Mom and dad : "Oh, sure, son, whatever you say, we believe you."

That's impossible. If there is a hoax, we have to believe that the Cascio family is aware of it, but chooses not to say anything to protect their son. Which is accusing a whole family of upstanding citizens of being party to a crime. And I'm not doing that.

The same logic applies to James and the impersonator. They must have girlfriends, friends, wives, parents. Can you imagine the following dialogue happening in 2009?

James Porte to his girlfriend : "Hey girl, remember the summer of 2007, when I was with you the whole time, doing nothing but watching TV and writing jingles I hoped to sell to Arby's to move out of my apartment?"

Girlfriend : "Sure, honey."

James : "Well don't act surprised, but all that time I was actually spending weeks in a basement studio recording 12 songs with Michael Jackson, despite you remembering from your own personal knowledge that I wasn't."

Girlfriend : "I believe you, honey, after all my memories of you NOT being in a basement for 6 weeks recording with superstar Michael Jackson 2 years ago might be a bit fuzzy..."

Bottom line is : the fact that the hoax is said to have taken place in a definite period in a definite place means that everybody in those three conspirators' circle of relatives, friends and girlfriends who know where they actually were, and what they actually did during that period of time could blow their cover if they chose to. Since none have blown their cover, it means they're all keeping silent. Which is a pretty unbelievable display of loyalty, if you ask me.
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Of course that all the Cascios know that the songs are fake. But they are family and unlike MJ's family and MJ fans they stick together and they don't betray each other (even in crime like this). They are Italians and family is sacred for them and of course turning against your own family or being a snitch is one of the worst things you can do. Watch The Godfather Part II.

"a whole family of upstanding citizens" Hahaha.. that is really funny.

Also there are other people (like the vocalist and Porte) who are paid to keep their mouths shut. When the money stops flowing, they will start to talk. Similar situation to Breaking Bad season 5 (if anyone watch that series).
 
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elapentela said:
For many people not keeping the same routine means getting into hot mess. Humans who want to be in shape or to maintain their craft above the average will work more than average humans. That's simple. Usually that's the reason why some humans are achieving more and some less.
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at least, you did add that the word 'usually', because it's not all the time. but, no. it's not that simple. Michael Phelps will tell you that. And i thought how you thought, about him. I hope you know who that is. if not, you can pm me, but, i think i made my point. if this is an attempt to say you were the fly on the wall in that house, it's not working. who is the fly on the wall? This kind of approach doesn't prove you know, beyond the shadow of a doubt, about those Cascio tracks.
 
elapentela said:
Michael was vacuuming too. And practicing his dance steps. However it's absolutely natural and logical to think that his main activity for at least 2 months would be recording if he had an equipment available. Especially when he didn't even had to take his pjs off. He also had his bed in the basement. It was his bedroom over there.

And except Cascios and MJ's children there was Grace living in the house (in the room with children). Plus the teacher was coming to the classroom every day. They could have some informations. They definitely would remember more.
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Grace was not at the house. It was Mj and the kids only with a tutor staying at a hotel. The closest person outside of that circle ho could have any knowledge is Raymone Bain who has no knowledge of anything that happened.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Ms and Mr Logicmen,

So MJ recorded 12 songs with the Cascios in 2 months and he was so happy with those songs that he didn't feel the need to record more than roughly as many in his entire career after Invincible 2001?

An entire album without worktape or single trace of any kind. Any.
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See, you're already wrong right there at the beginning. We KNOW Cascio/Porte sent to a sound engineer 4 of those songs to be mixed and given to MJ on his London trip. So MJ didn't "record" 12 songs. He laid down incomplete guide vocals for 12 songs. And we know he wasn't "happy" because they were all meant to be re-rerecorded for real in London.

You say no work tape exist. That's not true. No work tapes have been heard publicly. Not the same thing.

The Estate feel the songs are real, and the Jacksons feel they can't sue. So while the public may not have proof, those guys have, and that proof convinces THEM, which is good enough for me.

Eddie went on Oprah wth his whole family to defend the tracks. He's then stayed quiet, porobably for legal reasons. If it's a hoax, he's pretty ballsy to go on national TV and lie, with his own flesh and blood with him. And his family is a bunch of liars and fraudsters. Which I have no reason to believe they are, but feel free to accuse innocent people : hey, it's not like your beloved MJ ever suffered from that...
 
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WildStyle said:
MJ did use the studio in his stay with the Cascio's. Thriller 25. There is no evidence he used it for anything else.

Why does Michael sound exactly like himself on WBSS 2008, and sounds like some other dude on the 12 Cascio songs, even though they were allegedly both recorded in the same time period on the same equipment? Why, why, why?
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Why, why, why?

Finished, final vocal take on a finalised product vs. guide, demo vocals never meant to be heard.

Plus he doesn't sound that different on all of those recordings. All of you are guilty of sytematically exagerating the difference between the Cascio tracks and other MJ tracks and minimizing the difference between different songs in MJ's regular oeuvre.

Not 5 minutes ago, I was listening to "Shout". There's a part where MJ goes someting like "but will we never see the dawn". I think it's right before the bridge. Now that part sounds MORE non-MJ ish that any part of the three Cascio tracks : the only part that to my ears sounds as weird is the "and he runnin, and he runnin' part on Monster.

But I'm sure you'll all tell me I'm crazy, and that the "Shout" part I've pointed out sounds "absolutely like MJ. Unlike the Cascio tracks, which sound nothing like him". Yeah, yeah...
 
StellaJackson said:
Grace was not at the house. It was Mj and the kids only with a tutor staying at a hotel. The closest person outside of that circle ho could have any knowledge is Raymone Bain who has no knowledge of anything that happened.
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What's your source for all of that private info? You keep pulling stuff out of thin air like you know all of those people. Sounds like hearsay to me, and since you put on ignore people who contradict you, I have doubts about the objectivity of your "sources".
 
Guide vocals? You can't hear that the Cascio singer is singing full out? Singing his little heart out. You can't tell? You want to know what MJ guide vocals sound like? Listen to "Beautiful Girl", "In The Back", or "Fall Again". MJ guide vocals sound like MJ lazily singing.

In WBSS 2008 Michael sounds like Michael. In the Cascio tracks the singer sounds like someone else completely. In every way. Not even close. Does not sound at all like the man singing WBSS 2008. I can hear it. Many others can hear it. You can't. Oh well.
 
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StellaJackson said:
Grace was not at the house. It was Mj and the kids only with a tutor staying at a hotel. The closest person outside of that circle ho could have any knowledge is Raymone Bain who has no knowledge of anything that happened.
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Grace was in the house. There are witnesses who met her with children and Cascios during MJ's family stay in NJ. They were very private, still some fans had an opportunity to meet with them daily. Ask grace and ask the teacher. Maybe you will be lucky and they will answer your questions.
 
elapentela said:
Do you realize that this cost a lot more money that finish product because it's additional product and the material for another product. I don't understand why anybody with little common sense would sell it all together at once.
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What are you talking about? If you are talking about the Demos, they cost nothing. They can just take whatever demo from the vault and release it.

But I posted that video to prove that guide vocals can not sound different. He doesn't even have to sing the lyrcs, he can mumble and it still sounds like MJ. kreen said that when MJ sings guide vocals that he sounds like someone else. To prove that that is not true I posted that Billie Jean Home Demo.
 
There are many MJ guide vocals/demos such as In The Back, Fall Again, Beautiful Girl, Cheater, She Got It, Work That Body plus all the demos for released songs. In not one of them does he sound anything like the Cascio vocalist. It doesn't matter what type of vocal they are, it still fails to explain all the issues with the songs such as vibrato, accent pronounciation etc. Can the believers post one MJ guide vocal, demo, live vocal or outtake that sounds like the person on the Cascio tracks? No.
 
OnirMJ said:
What are you talking about? If you are talking about the Demos, they cost nothing. They can just take whatever demo from the vault and release it.

But I posted that video to prove that guide vocals can not sound different. He doesn't even have to sing the lyrcs, he can mumble and it still sounds like MJ. kreen said that when MJ sings guide vocals that he sounds like someone else. To prove that that is not true I posted that Billie Jean Home Demo.
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How about that line from "Shout" I mentioned? Do you HONESTLY say that sounds like MJ?

Look, I'll meet you halfway: the phrase on Monster where he goes "and he's running, and he's running" sounds VERY odd to me. So can you admit the "but we live to see the dawn" line sounds odd too?

I'm just trying to see if it is possible for doubters to admit that sometimes a singer's voice sounds different from his usual voice. Any fan of any artist will readily admit this : hey, there is a never-ending debate in Beatles circles about who sings the long "aaaaa-haaaa" note over the bridge in "A Day in the Life". Similarly, McCartney fans are still debating whether Denny Laine sings lead vocals on "Little Lamb Dragonfly" or not.

But doubters can't admit this reality that any other person will readily admit, because their whole belief rests on the superhuman ability of their subjective ears to always identify a person, no matter what the circumstamces.
 
elapentela said:
Grace was in the house. There are witnesses who met her with children and Cascios during MJ's family stay in NJ. They were very private, still some fans had an opportunity to meet with them daily. Ask grace and ask the teacher. Maybe you will be lucky and they will answer your questions.
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Yes, Cascios have a hotel. They have 4 children. There was MJ with his 3 kids. And then there was Grace. That is 11 people. Anyone else? Maybe Porte stayed few nights when they worked long hours on those songs recording Michael's vocals through PVC pipe and in the shower. Why did they put him to sleep in that basement/studio if there was one more empty room then?
 
kreen said:
How about that line from "Shout" I mentioned? Do you HONESTLY say that sounds like MJ?

Look, I'll meet you halfway: the phrase on Monster where he goes "and he's running, and he's running" sounds VERY odd to me. So can you admit the "but we live to see the dawn" line sounds odd too?

I'm just trying to see if it is possible for doubters to admit that sometimes a singer's voice sounds different from his usual voice. Any fan of any artist will readily admit this : hey, there is a never-ending debate in Beatles circles about who sings the long "aaaaa-haaaa" note over the bridge in "A Day in the Life". Similarly, McCartney fans are still debating whether Denny Laine sings lead vocals on "Little Lamb Dragonfly" or not.

But doubters can't admit this reality that any other person will readily admit, because their whole belief rests on the superhuman ability of their subjective ears to always identify a person, no matter what the circumstamces.
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That line from Shout is classic MJ, How could anyone think that doesn't sound like Michael?
 
StellaJackson said:
There are many MJ guide vocals/demos such as In The Back, Fall Again, Beautiful Girl, Cheater, She Got It, Work That Body plus all the demos for released songs. In not one of them does he sound anything like the Cascio vocalist. It doesn't matter what type of vocal they are, it still fails to explain all the issues with the songs such as vibrato, accent pronounciation etc. Can the believers post one MJ guide vocal, demo, live vocal or outtake that sounds like the person on the Cascio tracks? No.
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I listen to KYHU all the time and it's Michael for me. The other 2 songs are not my favorite but I don't skip them when listening to the whole album. Again it's MJ for me. I' m positive that at least
2 more millions fans hear exactly the same Michael Jackson.
 
OnirMJ said:
What are you talking about? If you are talking about the Demos, they cost nothing. They can just take whatever demo from the vault and release it.

But I posted that video to prove that guide vocals can not sound different. He doesn't even have to sing the lyrcs, he can mumble and it still sounds like MJ. kreen said that when MJ sings guide vocals that he sounds like someone else. To prove that that is not true I posted that Billie Jean Home Demo.
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Please, don't tell me that the unreleased demo of the dead legend cost nothing. It would be an absurd.
 
StellaJackson said:
There are many MJ guide vocals/demos such as In The Back, Fall Again, Beautiful Girl, Cheater, She Got It, Work That Body plus all the demos for released songs. In not one of them does he sound anything like the Cascio vocalist. It doesn't matter what type of vocal they are, it still fails to explain all the issues with the songs such as vibrato, accent pronounciation etc. Can the believers post one MJ guide vocal, demo, live vocal or outtake that sounds like the person on the Cascio tracks? No.
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KYHU sounds like usual MJ on any of his more saccharine songs. The part where he does his "angry" voice (you know what I mean) is typical MJ in those circumstances, similar to, say, when he does the same thing on One More Chance. The parts where he does the little falsetto thing is similar to any part where he does the same thing in any other song.

In fact, in the same way you are sure of everything you say, I'm sure of this : if KYHU had been mistakenly called a non-Cascio track, and HT a Cascio track, 75% of you would have reversed position and called the former authentic, and the latter fake.

And now I watch as you deny that KYHU sounds "anything like MJ".

In fact, I remember many doubters saying on this very board, "KYHU is the one that I'm not sure about. The others are most definitely fake, but that one..." Have you purged from your ranks those dissenters?

Incidentally, I'll point out that the producer of that track said MJ wrote it, and that as far as I know, he has never disowned it, which we can assume means he thinks it's MJ. So he's either another deaf idiot, or another paid conspirator. How many of them do we have now?
 
elapentela said:
I listen to KYHU all the time and it's Michael for me. The other 2 songs are not my favorite but I don't skip them when listening to the whole album. Again it's MJ for me. I' m positive that at least
2 more millions fans hear exactly the same Michael Jackson.
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It might be MJ for you but that doesn't mean it is and doesn't explain the wealth of inconsistencies surrounding the songs or the numerous issues with the vocals.
 
kreen said:
How about that line from "Shout" I mentioned? Do you HONESTLY say that sounds like MJ?

Look, I'll meet you halfway: the phrase on Monster where he goes "and he's running, and he's running" sounds VERY odd to me. So can you admit the "but we live to see the dawn" line sounds odd too?

But doubters can't admit this reality that any other person will readily admit, because their whole belief rests on the superhuman ability of their subjective ears to always identify a person, no matter what the circumstamces.
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It sounds like some sound effect on MJ's voice. That is one line. In Cascio songs we are talking about all verses, bridges and choruses (and even some ad-libs that are not pasted from previous MJ recordings) on all 12 songs! In Monster all the lines sound the same so I don't know what difference are you hearing in that line. And remember that we are not talking about the sound effects here, we are talking about colour of the voice, pronunciation, accent and singing skills. That singer on Cascio songs can't sing. Just listen those week ad-libs on Monster or whole Keep Your Head Up.

We are not having "superhuman ability", we just have our own human ears and brains and we do not trust in everything Branca/Sony says.
 
kreen said:
KYHU sounds like usual MJ on any of his more saccharine songs. The part where he does his "angry" voice (you know what I mean) is typical MJ in those circumstances, similar to, say, when he does the same thing on One More Chance. The parts where he does the little falsetto thing is similar to any part where he does the same thing in any other song.

In fact, in the same way you are sure of everything you say, I'm sure of this : if KYHU had been mistakenly called a non-Cascio track, and HT a Cascio track, 75% of you would have reversed position and called the former authentic, and the latter fake.

And now I watch as you deny that KYHU sounds "anything like MJ".

In fact, I remember many doubters saying on this very board, "KYHU is the one that I'm not sure about. The others are most definitely fake, but that one..." Have you purged from your ranks those dissenters?

Incidentally, I'll point out that the producer of that track said MJ wrote it, and that as far as I know, he has never disowned it, which we can assume means he thinks it's MJ. So he's either another deaf idiot, or another paid conspirator. How many of them do we have now?
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I don't know how many times you need to be told that we do not think the songs are fake because they are "Cascio" songs but because they clearly don't sound like Mj. As Onir explained, many of us didn't know which songs were which yet we were still able to identify Michael on HT as soon as we heard it. HT sounds pure Mj. As for KYHU, for me it is one of the worst. Not the worst, that would have to go to Fall In Love and Water. I can understand a casual fan maybe mistaking it on first listen but it's ridiculous that long term fans can't tell that it's not Michael. It has nothing in it to identify as Mj's voice. And once again, there is still no explanation for all the discrepancies with it - the vibrato. The different pronounciation and on and on. And which producer are you talking about? Angelo Montrone, who wasn't even there and was just giving his opinion based on what he was told?
 
elapentela said:
I listen to KYHU all the time and it's Michael for me. The other 2 songs are not my favorite but I don't skip them when listening to the whole album. Again it's MJ for me. I' m positive that at least
2 more millions fans hear exactly the same Michael Jackson.
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20 million, not 2. It is MJ for you. Great for you. You can also listen Mamacita, Let Me Let Go and other classics and enjoy yourself. But in reality, it is not Michael Jackson.

And about Keep Your Head Up (MJ or not). That is one of the worst songs I've ever heard. Lyrics are so stupid and vocals are so week.
 
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