Michael - The Great Album Debate

[mj_forever]

very hard for me to see the logic in holding back evidence, if there is. if there is original demo that fans haven't heard, and if it's the only thing that can prove that the tracks are authentic MJ all the way, why isn't Sony/Cascio/Estate going public with it to settle the issue once and for all and generate more sales for the album? as in NOW and not next year?

"next year" could be misinterpreted to mean it's still being prepared, as in fabricated. i don't mean to offend korgnex, but a level playing field would be - not just nice, but essential, i think.

 

[Arklove]

very hard for me to see the logic in holding back evidence, if there is. if there is original demo that fans haven't heard, and if it's the only thing that can prove that the tracks are authentic MJ all the way, why isn't Sony/Cascio/Estate going public with it to settle the issue once and for all and generate more sales for the album? as in NOW and not next year?

I guess they are hoping that it all just 'goes away' and that fans will eventually forget about it...

Nothing will save this album now....It's been dead since the day it was released....It's not as if doubters will rush out and buy the album if something comes up to prove the tracks really are Michael....I know a lot of doubters, including me, have bought the album anyway...

 

[Rudolf]

Oh, and out beliefs are not purely based on what Birchey said. I couldn't care less about what Birchey said. I believe what I hear and nothing more.

Exactly. To be honest I don't even know what he said..
What did he say? :scratch:

 

[OnirMJ]

The snort is on the mix that was collected from Eddie Cascio on July 10th 2010. It is not the result of anything Teddy Riley did. Unless you think Brawley did it. Well we all know what he did do.

What exactly did Brawley do?

 

[WhoIsIt89]

But the fact remains that he is covering up for his brother. That makes him just as guilty. And for him to sit there throwing the blame at the family instead of answering any of the difficult questions goes to show what a coward he is. The version of Breaking News that leaked is IDENTICAL to the mix on the album and he knows that. He is a liar. A coward and a backstabbing liar.

The BN version streamed isn't identical to the one on the album, this was settled long ago. It isn't that different but it's not identical, the difference is the layering of the backing and lead vocals. The initial stream had the backing vocals turned up over the lead, almost to the point where it drowned out the lead vocal in some parts. The album version fixed that, nonetheless, the versions ARE in fact different in terms of mixing, but vocally, it's the same voice on the two songs. I didn't watch that video, so I don't know what he said in regards to the family, but I do know that Frank isn't fibbing when he says he had nothing to do with the later production of those songs.

And I don't know what happened here, but why do some find it cool to slander Birchey and his character when he isn't here to defend himself? Anywho, regardless of what side you're on, Birchey has always provided valuable information about what really occurred with these songs, TPIM as well. Korgenex is right in that the 12 leaked snippets aren't the original demos, and most of us have yet to hear those, however, its possible Birchey thought they were the raw demos, and I doubt he lied for kicks and just to cause a stir within the fan community. We shouldn't throw around those kind of accusations.

 

[StellaJackson]

What exactly did Brawley do?

He was involved in the recording of Invincible, specifically, the same tracks that have adlibs taken from and pasted on the Cascio songs. He was also a part of the Angelikson production team. I'm sure you can connect the dots.

 

[StellaJackson]

The BN version streamed isn't identical to the one on the album, this was settled long ago. It isn't that different but it's not identical, the difference is the layering of the backing and lead vocals. The initial stream had the backing vocals turned up over the lead, almost to the point where it drowned out the lead vocal in some parts. The album version fixed that, nonetheless, the versions ARE in fact different in terms of mixing, but vocally, it's the same voice on the two songs. I didn't watch that video, so I don't know what he said in regards to the family, but I do know that Frank isn't fibbing when he says he had nothing to do with the later production of those songs.

And I don't know what happened here, but why do some find it cool to slander Birchey and his character when he isn't here to defend himself? Anywho, regardless of what side you're on, Birchey has always provided valuable information about what really occurred with these songs, TPIM as well. Korgenex is right in that the 12 leaked snippets aren't the original demos, and most of us have yet to hear those, however, its possible Birchey thought they were the raw demos, and I doubt he lied for kicks and just to cause a stir within the fan community. We shouldn't throw around those kind of accusations.

They are the original demos. They are exactly what was collected from Eddie Cascio. Eddie himself probably had earlier mixes, but as far as what Sony acquired, they are the originals.

 

[Korgnex]

They are the original demos. They are exactly what was collected from Eddie Cascio. Eddie himself probably had earlier mixes, but as far as what Sony acquired, they are the originals.

Eddie's 2nd identity must be C. Tricky Stewart then.

Boy, you know, you're lying for your friend Birchey...


@WhoIsIt89: You're right. Birchey was speculating what they were when he first heard them. Stating something as a fact without anything to back it up isn't wise. He later found out he was wrong but then started to lie by maintaining the delusion.

 

[StellaJackson]

Eddie's 2nd identity must be C. Tricky Stewart then.

Boy, you know, you're lying for your friend Birchey...


@WhoIsIt89: You're right. Birchey was speculating what they were when he first heard them. Stating something as a fact without anything to back it up isn't wise. He later found out he was wrong but then started to lie by maintaining the delusion.

First of all, Birchey is not my friend. He's a fan who you seem to be obsessed with. You state in your signature that people are being judged wrongly, well why not do the decent thing and let Birchey have his day in court before you condemn him? You haven't shown anything to prove his guilt after all. His situation has no bearing on the reality of the songs whatsoever. And you are the one who keeps coming on here claiming to know this and that but what do you have? Nothing. You've done nothing to prove you've heard any earlier mixes. And you've brough nothing to this debate that changes what we can all hear on the tracks, which is not MJ. Either put up or shut up.

Do you not realise what you are saying? Your accusing people of not backing up what they say but you a doing exactly the same thing.

 

[OnirMJ]

He still didn't answer the question: Did you hear any earlier mixes where the vocals sound like MJ and not JM? If so, where did you hear those mixes and how? Why the Estate didn't release those mixes to prove it's MJ? Korgnex if you want to be a reliable source you should answer this simple questions.

 

[Jesta]

And Korgnex, you've been asserting your speculative beliefs on us with your vague language i.e. phrases like "you'll see" and "if you heard this unleaked demo, you'd know the truth". The integral part of any argument is to back it up with EVIDENCE! Why will the future make us see anything differently? What do you know about this that we don't that makes you the authority on this situation? If you honestly think an unleaked demo will completely change this debate over, then by all means put your money where your mouth is and deliver this evidence so this debate will end as soon as possible! Because isn't that what we all want? An end to this long-running debate? If you have such concrete evidence as you so claim, then WHY aren't you using it effectively! Merely listening to it in the privacy of your own home and telling us little-to-no info about it, claiming that it's concrete proof that the songs are Michael isn't good enough. By doing nothing but asserting in this debate, you're losing credibility with everyone here. You're more likely to be believed if you actually back up your point with solid evidence.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Korgnex, I don't understand why you answer futile questions about what doubters believe and not a single question about what are the things that you know and that we don't. What are the things that you have heard and we not and what are the things that we'll see?

Are we discussing the songs or people? Your arguments are always directed towards people who lie and make assumptions according to you, but every single post of yours is backed with nothing more than vague words.

 

[azsummergirl]

Why this crazy vendetta against birchey?? is he like your arch nemesis or something? Most of us don't really know birchey, and this debate was going on LONG before he weighed in with his information. Do you have a datboard in your garage with a picture of birchey's face on it? I mean jeez . . .

 

[Arklove]

Why is it that people seem to think that Birchey's info is the be all to end all? It's great to know all that information along with all the comparisons that have been done....But I doubted these songs loooooong before Birchey's info or any comparisons were made...None of that has anything to do with why I believe these songs aren't sung by MJ.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Why is it that people seem to think that Birchey's info is the be all to end all? It's great to know all that information along with all the comparisons that have been done....But I doubted these songs loooooong before Birchey's info or any comparisons were made...None of that has anything to do with why I believe these songs aren't sung by MJ.

Anyway Birchey's case is not about the songs themselves, but about SONY's servers. So I don't know what will be funny in seeing two men risking a fine or jail.

Without Birchey we had been discussing about Monster, Keep Your Head Up and Breaking News. We even had three or four different threads and finally sized down to this one. Birchey's posts about other things came afterwards. It did answer some questions we had been wondering, but he did not influence us.

Anyway I hope the trial ends with no harm for anyone. Wishing someone bad things is really low. We're talking about human lives against a big corporation here.

Other than that, if someone knows something about the songs, instead of calling out names it'd be more useful to spread the info about the things they know than delightfully awaiting the trial and hoping that two people get hurt.

 

[Korgnex]

Why this crazy vendetta against birchey?? is he like your arch nemesis or something? Most of us don't really know birchey, and this debate was going on LONG before he weighed in with his information. Do you have a datboard in your garage with a picture of birchey's face on it? I mean jeez . . .

You guys must have a datboard in your garage with a picture of the Jason dude then. Or why else is he Stella &. Co.'s archenemy? Because they are the almighty vocal experts? The only fans that have the full insight about these tracks because they claim so themselves?

Jeez, it has always been known that I can't stand scammers.
Birchey has been exposed as both a liar and a criminal and anyone wishing them the best for their trial doesn't know that there's no doubts about what they did. Everyone gets a defense. Look at Murray's defense and you'll see a similar poor attempt from Birchey's defense.

I've never been here to back anything up. It's not my business. I can't simply put out sensitive information just because I'm so sick of all the crazyiness here.

 

[Rudolf]

I've never been here to back anything up. It's not my business. I can't simply put out sensitive information just because I'm so sick of all the crazyiness here.

You could change people's minds and make them less crazy.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

You guys must have a datboard in your garage with a picture of the Jason dude then. Or why else is he Stella &. Co.'s archenemy? Because they are the almighty vocal experts? The only fans that have the full insight about these tracks because they claim so themselves?

Jeez, it has always been known that I can't stand scammers.
Birchey has been exposed as both a liar and a criminal and anyone wishing them the best for their trial doesn't know that there's no doubts about what they did. Everyone gets a defense. Look at Murray's defense and you'll see a similar poor attempt from Birchey's defense.

I've never been here to back anything up. It's not my business. I can't simply put out sensitive information just because I'm so sick of all the crazyiness here.

What do you know that we don't? is it difficult to answer the question?

 

[OnirMJ]

You guys must have a datboard in your garage with a picture of the Jason dude then. Or why else is he Stella &. Co.'s archenemy? Because they are the almighty vocal experts? The only fans that have the full insight about these tracks because they claim so themselves?

Jeez, it has always been known that I can't stand scammers.
Birchey has been exposed as both a liar and a criminal and anyone wishing them the best for their trial doesn't know that there's no doubts about what they did. Everyone gets a defense. Look at Murray's defense and you'll see a similar poor attempt from Birchey's defense.

I've never been here to back anything up. It's not my business. I can't simply put out sensitive information just because I'm so sick of all the crazyiness here.

You are still avoiding to answer the question:
1. Did you hear that rough demo that sounds like Michael Jackson?
2. If that rough demo really exists why Estate didn't release it to prove it is Michael?

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

You are still avoiding to answer the question:
1. Did you hear that rough demo that sounds like Michael Jackson?
2. If that rough demo really exists why Estate didn't release it to prove it is Michael?

He keeps on talking about doubters' craziness and Birchey but doesn't answer a single question.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Arrogance at its best. Will be funny next year.

What will be funny next year?

Pretty embarrassing for certain people who hold up certain lies ("snorts", "rough demos", comparison clips with the wrong vocals/singer...)

Prove the contrary. We have been waiting since 2010.

It's a stupid assumption

Prove that it's an assumption.

to call those noises on KYHU and BN a "snort".

How do you call them? Sneezes? Coughs? Burps?

It just shows that you have NOT heard the earlier mixes (unleaked),

So you have heard UNLEAKED remixes? Where? How? Explain yourself. You attended the recording sessions with Eddie in his basement?
You hacked Eddie's server?

Now, you are accusing us to have not heard the early mixes. Are you implying that you have? Explain yourself. Where did you hear them? Who made you listen to them? Why don't they show them to end the craziness as you liek to call it?

they make it clear there's no "snort" anywhere.

Prove it. So far you have just been talking like us without explaining anything. Where did you hear versions without snorts?

Feel free to continue believing in this lie and other ones.

It's not a lie when we say that we hear snorts. So far you have been claiming that there were no snorts. Now, prove that you are not lying.

@teli-mj: Unlike Birchey I have no interest to make sensitive information public or invent stories like he did (again: "rough demos" is the biggest lie ever talked about here).

So far it's your word against his. So back your claims with something instead of shouting "lie, lie, lie".

Not to mention TPIMaster's inability to recognize what's wrong with his infamous comparison clip called "Yogurt"...
No other doubter is recognizing it as well. Guess why? The contradictions between the doubters are always being ignored in order to keep up the common frustration and hatred towards the imagined enemy.

What dimension do you live in? What imaginary enemies are you talking about? We're talking about the authenticity of teh voice and you call us liars, stupid and crazy.

It is an unproven claim that the noise you hear on Teddy's mix would be a "snort". If you heard the earlier mixes of it, you would understand why this claim is nonsense. I have already told you it's a production artefact and nothing else.

Prove it. How do you know it's not a snort? How do you know it's a production artefact? Give yourself some credit with soemthing else than your claims.

So your "at least one clear sort" is the arrogance I'm talking about. You don't have sufficient information to back up such ridiculous claims that have been declared as so-called "facts" for months. They can easily be refuted.

Prove it to us that you have more information. What do you know that we don't. Prove it that my claim is ridiculous. So far you have been doing nothing else actually but pushing your claims on us without a single evidencer whatsoever.

The same goes for how some of Teddy's statements have been - intentionally or not - distorted and how he's been ridiculed about because of that and became one of your preferred targets (you guys know why you always type "beLIEver" as well). He did NOT lie when he said he messed up Michael's vocals with Melodyne. It is true. However he wasn't the only producer, he was simply the finisher. You have to realize that he didn't say anything more or less. It is simply your assumption what to make of this limited information and unfortunately you guys are believing this would be an attempt to explain the vocals - but it isn't in any way.

And you are completely ignoring the remaining Cascio songs that have not been touched by Teddy, yet they still sound as off as the ones on the album. Same timbre and same vibrato. Again, you have nothing to corroborate that Teddy told the truth, not a single thing.

Birchey has never heard any rough vocals, all the tracks he could acquire have already been worked on by professionals in the industry. That's all I want to say (and have said several times before).

Again Birchey. Again, prove that he hadn't heard any rough vocals. So far you have nothing else but claims.

Yeah, have you? All the leaked snippets are mixes from professional producers, dude. The KYHU mix e.g. is another one from C. "Tricky" Stewart [to make it 100% clear: I'm NOT talking about the mix that is almost identical to the album version which was leaked before the album was released and which you all have!]. All of them have been worked on, it's time to open your eyes. You have NOT heard anything "all before" professional producers have picked it up.

Have you heard anything before professional producers have picked it up? Answer the question, have you? Where? Who allowed you to hear anything before others? Prove you know more things than us or share the info with us instead of scattering your futile assumptions and claims all over the board.

Sometimes it's quite interesting that people choose to believe what suits them best...

Again, prove that we believe what suit us and that you don't believe what suit you. Again, it's yet another claim without any proof.

Rather believing the pathetic lies by Birchey, isn't that what many of you are actually doing for months now?
Let me repeat again: These mixes are anything but "rough" and "untouched". It's a lie by Birchey & Co.

Birchey, Birchey, Birchey. The only word in your mouth. Again, prove that what Birchey said was a pathetic lie. Prove it. We can't see anything else but your claims. What makes your claim without any proof a not pathetic lie and Birchey's a pathetic lie?

He also claimed to have some of the stolen songs from studio acetates when everything was taken from Sony's server. His own wife even claimed - PUBLICLY(!) on Twitter I might add - he got FIVE ultra rare songs for only EIGHTY pounds.
Yeah, we have to believe such honest people. *lol*
Their charges must be a mistake which their defense will try to refute. Like Murray's defense, I might add.

You really have some grudge against Birchey. This part of the post has nothing to do with the Cascio voice. You're impatiently awaitng the trial and hoping to see them go down. How pathetic. And you are the ones who call others' people crazy with pathetic lies and some kind of agenda against some imaginary enemies.

Birchey lied to me.
Birchey lied to MJJC/Gaz.
Birchey lied to you.

Bichey, Birchey, Birchey. Man you need an anti-Birchey intoxication treatment.

Wake up, doubters!

We're perfectly awaken and waiting for the slightest info, something you seem unable to provide.

I'm not saying that Birchey made you believe what you believe. But you believed certain lies about the songs that he posted here.

Again Birchey, Birchey, Birchey.

You have just created a new syndrom: Bircheyphobia.

Eddie's 2nd identity must be C. Tricky Stewart then.

Boy, you know, you're lying for your friend Birchey...

Yawn.

@WhoIsIt89: You're right. Birchey was speculating what they were when he first heard them. Stating something as a fact without anything to back it up isn't wise. He later found out he was wrong but then started to lie by maintaining the delusion.

Stating something as a fact without anything to back it up isn't wise. Now that's the best part among all your posts. All you have to do now is to back your statements up.

You guys must have a datboard in your garage with a picture of the Jason dude then. Or why else is he Stella &. Co.'s archenemy? Because they are the almighty vocal experts? The only fans that have the full insight about these tracks because they claim so themselves?

And what have you offered as a proof? We're still waiting.

Jeez, it has always been known that I can't stand scammers.
Birchey has been exposed as both a liar and a criminal and anyone wishing them the best for their trial doesn't know that there's no doubts about what they did. Everyone gets a defense. Look at Murray's defense and you'll see a similar poor attempt from Birchey's defense.

You compare Birchey to Murray, to a case of involuntary slaughter. How unfortunate.

I've never been here to back anything up. It's not my business. I can't simply put out sensitive information just because I'm so sick of all the crazyiness here.

First of all, prove we're all about craziness here.

Second, why don't you follow your own wonderful statement:

Stating something as a fact without anything to back it up isn't wise.

 

[T.N.A.]

I can't simply put out sensitive information just because I'm so sick of all the crazyiness here.

How convenient...

 

[love is magical]

You guys must have a datboard in your garage with a picture of the Jason dude then. Or why else is he Stella &. Co.'s archenemy? Because they are the almighty vocal experts? The only fans that have the full insight about these tracks because they claim so themselves?

Jeez, it has always been known that I can't stand scammers.
Birchey has been exposed as both a liar and a criminal and anyone wishing them the best for their trial doesn't know that there's no doubts about what they did. Everyone gets a defense. Look at Murray's defense and you'll see a similar poor attempt from Birchey's defense.

I've never been here to back anything up. It's not my business. I can't simply put out sensitive information just because I'm so sick of all the crazyiness here.

You are not in the position to call anybody criminal. Birchey will face a trial. You, like everyone of us, should give him a chance to defend himself.

Your posts always come across as nothing but arrogance. Instead of discussing the songs, you tend to bring up Birchey. What happened between the two of you is none of our business. To be honest, I think it is a low blow to trash him here knowing he is not able to talk about this matter. It speaks a lot about you.

 

[Korgnex]

You are not in the position to call anybody criminal.

I am. I have evidence about his crimes myself.

It speaks a lot about you.

It speaks a lot about how people here IGNORE not only Birchey's lies but also those of his own wife that LIED and ACCUSED this forum's staff members and founder. It shows who you want to sympathize with - until the game is over and you will regret believing he could be an honest person after all.
Don't forget, a leak here happened shortly after an arrest because he had scammed someone. A lot about his past has been exposed since then. A lot of the lies he told MJJC staff members, me and others have been uncovered, too.
You guys don't know much about all this and that's what I have to accept until next year.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I am. I have evidence about his crimes myself.



It speaks a lot about how people here IGNORE not only Birchey's lies but also those of his own wife that LIED and ACCUSED this forum's staff members and founder. It shows who you want to sympathize with - until the game is over and you will regret believing he could be an honest person after all.
Don't forget, a leak here happened shortly after an arrest because he had scammed someone. A lot about his past has been exposed since then. A lot of the lies he told MJJC staff members, me and others have been uncovered, too.
You guys don't know much about all this and that's what I have to accept until next year.

If you can't talk about it it means you have acquired something illegally.

 

[StellaJackson]

I am. I have evidence about his crimes myself.



It speaks a lot about how people here IGNORE not only Birchey's lies but also those of his own wife that LIED and ACCUSED this forum's staff members and founder. It shows who you want to sympathize with - until the game is over and you will regret believing he could be an honest person after all.
Don't forget, a leak here happened shortly after an arrest because he had scammed someone. A lot about his past has been exposed since then. A lot of the lies he told MJJC staff members, me and others have been uncovered, too.
You guys don't know much about all this and that's what I have to accept until next year.

Who cares? I know you have a personal vendetta against Birchey for some reason, but what does it have to do with this debate and what we've been hearing since November 2010? Absolutely nothing. Let's assume Birchey is completely guilty. How has that personally affected you or the legacy of Michael? It certainly hasn't done as much harm as these songs did in wrecking the albums chances and dividing the community. It hasn't stopped Bad 25. Why are you so obsessed with that when what we should be doing is getting to the bottom of this?

 

[qbee]

I am. I have evidence about his crimes myself.

It speaks a lot about how people here IGNORE not only Birchey's lies but also those of his own wife that LIED and ACCUSED this forum's staff members and founder. It shows who you want to sympathize with - until the game is over and you will regret believing he could be an honest person after all.
Don't forget, a leak here happened shortly after an arrest because he had scammed someone. A lot about his past has been exposed since then. A lot of the lies he told MJJC staff members, me and others have been uncovered, too.
You guys don't know much about all this and that's what I have to accept until next year.

This is completly off topic - You are providing nothing productive to this discussion. you are not even discussing this topic but just attacking members and others and giving yourself some misplaced self importance by dangling information you are suppose to have that others dont like a carrot.

Please get back on topic and stop discussing Birchey or trying to implicate Gaz or MJJC in your discussions. I dont think Gaz will appreciate you speaking for him or MJJC in this matter acting like you have some inside info from MJJC. Which you do NOT. I know for a Fact Every thing we know on this matter has been publically stated in various threads about the Birchey Trail. I must say Your posts are coming off very arrogant for the most part in the way you speak down to members in this thread. Stop the attacks and insults on members and please take Birchy and that mess out of the equasion. Any further posts of this nature will be deleted .. knock it off please.

I dont care which view you hold .. but you are way out of line in this thread .. If you cant discuss this topic without insulting
or attcking others then please stay out , becuase you have provided nothing helpful or productive to this discussion.



Guys please get back on topic .. lease: Becuase if not I have pages of cleaning to do to force the thread back on topic.

 

[Member Service]

This thread is one step away from being closed permanently,

Take this as your last warning,

I will not tolerate any further instances like I have read here.

Either learn or be shut down,

Your choice.

 

[Billyjeanplxiv]

we just want answers.

 

[qbee]

^^You seem so clueless :better: You were not even involved with the discussing being addressed - And I guess the warning and post above went completly over your head to say such a thing .. No one ever stated you cant seek answers in this thread. So your reply is kind of off topic . Go seek all the answers you want .. in fact we encourage it. Thats what this thread is for. Believers and Doubters have lots of answers to seek and "some" posting in here have NOTHING to provide in that area .. that is what we were addressing .. not you seeking answers.

So lets get Back on topic please .. Discuss what you have or dont have or need to make you case
No matter what side of the issue you stand ..