Michael - The Great Album Debate

[StellaJackson]

Sure I'll admit they sound a little off but so did many others.

What non-Cascio songs have the same vibrato, accent and pronounciation etc issues?

 

[Jesta]

^I know, right? :lol:

Just felt the need to complete and maybe correct what Jesta was saying.

I know, I'm annoying...

Thanks for the corrections, TNA I don't claim to know everything about Queen as I see myself more as a casual fan (for the time being) but what I meant by "only one album was released in his name" was of strictly new material and not compilations like The Freddie Mercury Album. And I know that Queen wasn't just for Freddie, but for the sake of posthumous comparison is the reason why I said that only one album of new material was made after his death, rather than including the album that Queen made with Paul Rodgers purely because - even though it proves that Queen can function without Freddie - Made in Heaven was the last album that had Freddie as the spotlight, as such and therefore it is the only Queen album after Freddie's death that can compare to Michael's posthumous career - I prefer not to mention mere compilations due to their relatively lack of new content. However, Freddie's remix album could be comparable to IMMORTAL, however I know very little about Freddie's solo career to make a judgement on that.

Also, I find that You Don't Fool Me to be the most relevant song to the topic at hand because it has had somewhat similar circumstances to how we know for a fact the Cascio tracks have been created, namely through vocal sequencing... Of course, You Don't Fool Me and the tracks are quite different in how the sequencing has been handled, but it is a good example of Frankenstein music, and it brings up a case of whether the artist would've approved of Frankenstein songs (I'm sure Freddie wouldn't have minded because of his recording ideology in his final months, compared to Michael not intending to die and therefore this style is a lot more controversial).

I allow myself to make mistakes when it comes to Queen because - compared to my knowledge on Michael - I know pretty much nothing about them (c'mon, Made in Heaven is the only Queen album I own at the moment!!) so I have no problem with you correction and adding to my knowledge when/if I talk about them BTW, what Queen album would you recommend to me out of their 14 other albums?

 

[SoCav]

Sure I'll admit they sound a little off but so did many others.

That makes me even more interested in your opinion about the things that were mentioned in response to that YouTube link you posted. Hope you're willing to share your thoughts.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Funny how my example with Elvis and a well respected forensic seems not "as I think" and the Lennon/McCartney seems relevant to the Cascio situation...

 

[Arklove]

Sure I'll admit they sound a little off but so did many others.

Just a 'little off'? Do you really think that if they were only a 'little off' we would have a thread like this still ongoing?

Ok, many others sound a little off? Do many others of Michael's songs sound like the Cascio tracks? Which ones?

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

What non-Cascio songs have the same vibrato, accent and pronounciation etc issues?

To me he sounds the same on the Cascio tracks as he did on Invincible (To you IDK).





Well I will be back at like 11:00 PM because I need to start getting ready for Immortal so I'll post my opinions and everything when I return


This is off topic but thought it will calm this down a bit

"Everyone help me promote the upcoming Bad 25 album on Twitter

Instructions

#1 Download this .GIF file
#2 Go to Twitter and make it your profile picture
#3 Tweet with the hash tag #Bad25

http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/ADKIc3mAnX36O/untitle.gif"

 

[Jesta]

Funny how my example with Elvis and a well respected forensic seems not "as I think" and the Lennon/McCartney seems relevant to the Cascio situation...

Actually, I found that article on Elvis quite fascinating. Elvis' voice is another one which is very well known throughout the world, and this song appears to have thrown a lot of fans into a predicament like we are in - I have seen many comments either defending or opposing the song ala what we have been doing for a while now. Can you refresh my memory: what did the analysis conclude about the authenticity and did his Estate buy the track?

 

[kreen]

That is their explanations, at least from what I remember throughout the ... years?

Are you talking about the pronunciation of a single word in a song? Yes, the weird pronunciation of a single word in a song proves that a large-scale, complex, illegal fraud was conceived and carried out, despite the fact that such a conspiracy would have been basically impossible to conceive, carry out and keep hidden.

Why is that word weirdly pronounced? I don't know, why does MJ pronounce the word "lost" as "la-augh-st" on "You are My Life"? The fact that you can't explain every little detail about something does not invalidate all that you CAN explain. Maybe that particular word is one that was double-tracked by James Porte because the original was off-key. Maybe MJ pronounced it weirdly because of whatever disposition he was in on the day he recorded it. Maybe he sometimes pronounced similar words in slightly different manners; we all actually do that, even though we don't realize it. If you scrutinized all MJ songs as much as you've obsessed over the Cascio tracks, you'd probably find similar cases : people's voice, their accent, the way they stress syllables, the way they pronounce given words -- all of that constantly changes under a ton of variables.

Bottom line is, if the conspiracy you allege had really taken place, you'd be holding a LOT more evidence in your hands that the pronunciation of a single word in a song.

As for people saying the Cascio songs suck, I'd just like to reiterate that if the exact same songs had come out on Invincible, many of you would be praising them, in the same way you manage to praise material like "Privacy" or "Cry". I can absolutely imagine fans defending "Monster" as a cool uptempo number and "All I Need" as something different and mature from MJ. Many people's prejudice against the Cascios and theirs songs means they'll never admit to them having any quality, even just as songs, whoever sings them.

 

[T.N.A.]

I allow myself to make mistakes when it comes to Queen because - compared to my knowledge on Michael - I know pretty much nothing about them (c'mon, Made in Heaven is the only Queen album I own at the moment!!) so I have no problem with you correction and adding to my knowledge when/if I talk about them BTW, what Queen album would you recommend to me out of their 14 other albums?

No problem dude! Always enjoy having a conversation with fellow Queen fan (casual fan or hardcore fan, doesn't matter).

I highly recommend their last album, 'Innuendo'. And for the sake of 'Queen's last material, made with the idea that Freddie's gonna die soon', I'd also recommend 'The Miracle'. So the last two albums, but mainly 'Innuendo'. Cause those two albums are like a whole different chapter in Queen's history. So you have their 70s stuff, then their 80s stuff, until '86 when 'A Kind Of Magic' comes out, then the tour for that album and then Freddie being diagnosed with HIV and later AIDS. So they took a break (Freddie worked on some solo stuff) and when they came back in the studio to do their final two albums 'The Miracle' ('89) and 'Innuendo' ('91). They didn't knew which album was gonna be the last so they had a 'goodbye' song at the end of each album. 'Was It All Worth It' on the Miracle (thinking that was gonna be the last) and 'The Show Must Go On' on Innuendo. Great stuff indeed.

As far as classic Queen albums go, I'd say 'The Game'. That one is a true classic!

Btw, you should totally get 'Days Of Our Lives' on Blu-Ray, it came out this year and it's the ULTIMATE Queen documentary. Look it up...

 

[kreen]

What non-Cascio songs have the same vibrato, accent and pronounciation etc issues?

The vibrato is probably electronically-enhanced somehow. As for the accent and the pronunciation, I think a lot of that is your mind playing tricks on you, and also selective hearing.

 

[love is magical]

To me he sounds the same on the Cascio tracks as he did on Invincible (To you IDK).

ADKI, I know your feeling about the Cascio tracks. But, I just can't comprehend statement like the above. So, a combination of Michael Jackson and James Porte is equivalent to the majestic Michael Jackson at his vocal best?

Invincible is still so underrated. Vocally, the tracks on Invincible are simply magnificient.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

The reused melody from You Are Not Alone in “All I Need” is not from the original song : it’s Burt Bacharach’s little musical homage to a song he maybe liked himself.

So he used it once in YANA, and now "he" uses it again on "All I need"?

As for the other melodies that reappear, Eddie Cascio and James Porte wrote the songs, and they’re obviously big MJ fans, and tried to write music that sounded like MJ music.

When NE-YO, Usher, ... sing a song, THAT sounds like an inspiration from MJ. When Eddie and James wrote the songs, they didn't get inspired, they ripped off the melodies.

One way to do that is to include musical references to earlier songs.

Or in other terms: plagiarize.

MJ himself was not above that : “Cry” is a poor man’s MITM;

Extremely subjective opinion. You don't like the Invincible album that much, so clearly you will judge the songs from it as poor. (Only because it was ruined by SONY's policy).

People of the World is a rewrite of Heal the World, the ad-libs at the end of Heaven can Wait are similar to those at the end of Lady in My Life, and MJ rewrote “SYBDTTG” as “Lovely one” and DSTYGE.

I don't know where you see similarities with these songs. They're not even close to the Cascio rip-offs.

 

[Jesta]

No problem dude! Always enjoy having a conversation with fellow Queen fan (casual fan or hardcore fan, doesn't matter).

I highly recommend their last album, 'Innuendo'. And for the sake of 'Queen's last material, made with the idea that Freddie's gonna die soon', I'd also recommend 'The Miracle'. So the last two albums, but mainly 'Innuendo'.

As far as classic Queen albums go, I'd say 'The Game'. That one is a true classic!

You should totally get 'Days Of Our Lives' on Blu-Ray, it came out this year and it's the ULTIMATE Queen documentary. Look it up...

Thanks!! I plan on getting some Queen things throughout the year i.e. when I finish my exams, birthday etc. I'll definitely get Innuendo and The Miracle first, though! And I believe Days of Our Lives is on YouTube, so I'll watch it on there for the time being I also plan on getting Live at Wembley - 25th Anniversary Edition for my birthday in September!

Also, I would like all debaters to listen to this:

This is a song made out of various, unrelated vocal sequences. Can you tell that it's been fabricated in that way? Does the song not sound like Freddie Mercury? How does it compare to the Cascio tracks in terms of its creation and execution? This is the biggest comparison that we can have to the Cascio track issue and I think it could provide an interesting discussion.

 

[Arklove]

ADKI, I know your feeling about the Cascio tracks. But, I just can't comprehend statement like the above. So, a combination of Michael Jackson and James Porte is equivalent to the majestic Michael Jackson at his vocal best?

Invincible is still so underrated. Vocally, the tracks on Invincible are simply magnificient.

Agreed....Invincible is not one of my favourite albums, but it runs circles around any Cascio songs, that's for sure...His vocals are sublime in that album...


Sorry ADKI, but if you're going to compare the Cascio songs to vocal masterpieces of those on Invincible, I'm really curious as to why you think that..ie: some examples, vocal tics that are identical, etc...

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Actually, I found that article on Elvis quite fascinating. Elvis' voice is another one which is very well known throughout the world, and this song appears to have thrown a lot of fans into a predicament like we are in - I have seen many comments either defending or opposing the song ala what we have been doing for a while now. Can you refresh my memory: what did the analysis conclude about the authenticity and did his Estate buy the track?

According to the forensic who was filmed, who compared even with the soundalikes and who explained how he based his opinion, he confirmed it as an Elvis's song.

I didn't see any official report from the Estate and apprently they haven't bought the track. Many fans in the forums don't believe in the authenticity of the song.

 

[Jesta]

According to the forensic who was filmed, who compared even with the soundalikes and who explained how he based his opinion, he confirmed it as an Elvis's song.

I didn't see any official report from the Estate and apprently they haven't bought the track. Many fans in the forums don't believe in the authenticity of the song.

And hasn't Branca and McClain been trying to emulate the Elvis Estate's business model? In this case, we have a clear thought process as to how this song has been tested, and the inclusion of a soundalike has provided objectivity. That holds more water than the statement on the Cascio tracks, but the Elvis Estate has done the right thing by not purchasing the track: they know it's controversial, and they know it's just not worth the fan divide, regardless of its authenticity. A controversial song isn't exactly a marketable song.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Are you talking about the pronunciation of a single word in a song? Yes, the weird pronunciation of a single word in a song proves that a large-scale, complex, illegal fraud was conceived and carried out, despite the fact that such a conspiracy would have been basically impossible to conceive, carry out and keep hidden.

Why is that word weirdly pronounced? I don't know, why does MJ pronounce the word "lost" as "la-augh-st" on "You are My Life"? The fact that you can't explain every little detail about something does not invalidate all that you CAN explain. Maybe that particular word is one that was double-tracked by James Porte because the original was off-key. Maybe MJ pronounced it weirdly because of whatever disposition he was in on the day he recorded it. Maybe he sometimes pronounced similar words in slightly different manners; we all actually do that, even though we don't realize it. If you scrutinized all MJ songs as much as you've obsessed over the Cascio tracks, you'd probably find similar cases : people's voice, their accent, the way they stress syllables, the way they pronounce given words -- all of that constantly changes under a ton of variables.

Bottom line is, if the conspiracy you allege had really taken place, you'd be holding a LOT more evidence in your hands that the pronunciation of a single word in a song.

As for people saying the Cascio songs suck, I'd just like to reiterate that if the exact same songs had come out on Invincible, many of you would be praising them, in the same way you manage to praise material like "Privacy" or "Cry". I can absolutely imagine fans defending "Monster" as a cool uptempo number and "All I Need" as something different and mature from MJ. Many people's prejudice against the Cascios and theirs songs means they'll never admit to them having any quality, even just as songs, whoever sings them.

Kreen, there are too many "maybes". No, kreen, no one switches randomly from one dialect to another. Do you all of sudden have a Scottish accent? Or an Australian accent? Or Irish?

 

[Pentum]

The vibrato is probably electronically-enhanced somehow. As for the accent and the pronunciation, I think a lot of that is your mind playing tricks on you, and also selective hearing.

There's no mind playing tricks. I have showed it via audio files. Micheal has always pronounced "waiting", "waitin'/waiting".

Jason Malachi, in his own song pronounced "wai'in". JUST like in Stay and Monster.

And is Jason's vibrato "probably electronically enhanced somehow" (another excuse, clearly)?

Listen to this: http://hu.lk/349nk3vb3uuq Yes, listen to all of it, at least a few mins.

THEN listen to this http://hu.lk/6pdnabdiey7d
(Don't worry, I cut out the unreleased songs)

 

[Pentum]

Kreen, there are too many "maybes". No, kreen, no one switches randomly from one dialect to another. Do you all of sudden have a Scottish accent? Or an Australian accent? Or Irish?

It looks to me like he is just searching for ways for these songs to be MJ. That he is indeed lying to himself. He was a doubeter when the songs first hit the web.

 

[kreen]

I just thought of something else : all of the Cascio songs must have been presented to MJ in their original versions, with James Porte singing lead. So when MJ sang the songs, he may have just replicated James Porte's delivery, which may have also influenced his style and everything. That also is common in music, where you compare a demo and the final version and see the final singer copied the original singer in ways he wouldn't have if he had been the first singer.

 

[Arklove]

There's no mind playing tricks. I have showed it via audio files. Micheal has always pronounced "waiting", "waitin'/waiting".

Jason Malachi, in his own song pronounced "wai'in". JUST like in Stay and Monster.

And is Jason's vibrato "probably electronically enhanced somehow" (another excuse, clearly)?

Listen to this: http://hu.lk/349nk3vb3uuq Yes, listen to all of it, at least a few mins.

THEN listen to this http://hu.lk/6pdnabdiey7d
(Don't worry, I cut out the unreleased songs)

Whole lotta goatin' goin' on in dere

Or should I say 'goa'in'?

 

[T.N.A.]

Thanks!! I plan on getting some Queen things throughout the year i.e. when I finish my exams, birthday etc. I'll definitely get Innuendo and The Miracle first, though! And I believe Days of Our Lives is on YouTube, so I'll watch it on there for the time being I also plan on getting Live at Wembley - 25th Anniversary Edition for my birthday in September!

Also, I would like all debaters to listen to this:

This is a song made out of various, unrelated vocal sequences. Can you tell that it's been fabricated in that way? Does the song not sound like Freddie Mercury? How does it compare to the Cascio tracks in terms of its creation and execution? This is the biggest comparison that we can have to the Cascio track issue and I think it could provide an interesting discussion.

Wembley '86 might show Queen at the top of their career. The tour had a great set list and everything, but Freddie's voice was... meh, not so great during that tour.

I do however recommend Montreal '81 on Blu-Ray (shot on 35 mm, just like the Bad concert were supposedly shot). His voice was great during that time and the set list isn't so generic as the Magic Tour set list.

As far as 'You Don't Fool Me' goes. That one was indeed put together from bits and pieces. Here's some extra backround info on the track.

"You Don't Fool Me" was one of the last tracks recorded for Made in Heaven and came about in a most unusual way. May has explained on his website that producer for the band, David Richards, more or less created the framework of the song single handedly, building from bits of lyrics recorded just before Mercury's death. May has said that before Richards' work, there was no song to speak of. However, after Richards edited and mixed the song (including a bit of harmonies recorded for "A Winter's Tale") he presented it to the band. May, Taylor and Deacon then added their instruments and backing vocals and were surprised to end up with a finished song that had begun as nothing. The style of the song is reminiscent of their 1982 album Hot Space, and a comment over that featured on their Greatest Hits III album. The theme of the song could also be a continuation of the story told by prior Queen songs Play the Game and It's a Hard Life."

Like I said, I never really got why did decided to put so much effort into that one when they has stuff like this lying around in their vaults.

[youtube]0rkiAXzrwbY[/youtube]

[youtube]FelrCwGaRqs[/youtube]

LMAO @the messenges from the end, starting from 4:45. Freddie's message and Brian's were hilarious. :lol:

 

[love is magical]

As for people saying the Cascio songs suck, I'd just like to reiterate that if the exact same songs had come out on Invincible, many of you would be praising them, in the same way you manage to praise material like "Privacy" or "Cry". I can absolutely imagine fans defending "Monster" as a cool uptempo number and "All I Need" as something different and mature from MJ. Many people's prejudice against the Cascios and theirs songs means they'll never admit to them having any quality, even just as songs, whoever sings them.

I really wish you can stop making assumptions for people who genuinely enjoy Invincible. Invincible, as a matter of fast, is the album I reach out the most. On the other hand, I seldomly touch Off the Wall. So, I simply enjoy the style of Invincible. I'm not going to pretend that Privacy and Cry are my favorite Michael Jackson songs. But, I strongly disagree with you that they are "poor man's anything." Each to his own.

You know your argument works both way. You said people who think the Cascio songs suck have prejudice against the song. Meanwhile, I can also say that people who think the Cascio songs are at par of Michael Jackson's standards are desperate for more and more unreleased materails that they brainwash themselves in believing the overly produced songs are great. Let's not go there.

 

[Arklove]

I just thought of something else : all of the Cascio songs must have been presented to MJ in their original versions, with James Porte singing lead. So when MJ sang the songs, he may have just replicated James Porte's delivery, which may have also influenced his style and everything. That also is common in music, where you compare a demo and the final version and see the final singer copied the original singer in ways he wouldn't have if he had been the first singer.

So he replicated James Porte's delivery and ended up picking up Jason Malachi's vocal traits and completely forgot how to sound like himself? :scratch:

 

[kreen]

Kreen, there are too many "maybes". No, kreen, no one switches randomly from one dialect to another. Do you all of sudden have a Scottish accent? Or an Australian accent? Or Irish?

Except MJ doesn't "switch dialects" on the Cascio songs. You know it, especially if you have the expertise you claim to have in this field. The idea that MJ on the Cascio songs has an "accent" that is as different from his regular accent as the difference between Scottish and Australian is preposterous : you guys are taking insignificant, slight, rare, barely-there differences and turning them into strong evidence. Sorry, I know that's conspiracy-theory 101, but I don't fall for that.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I just thought of something else : all of the Cascio songs must have been presented to MJ in their original versions, with James Porte singing lead. So when MJ sang the songs, he may have just replicated James Porte's delivery, which may have also influenced his style and everything. That also is common in music, where you compare a demo and the final version and see the final singer copied the original singer in ways he wouldn't have if he had been the first singer.

Now we have a theory of MJ wanting to imitate some amateurs who ripped his own melodies? James Porte, what a reference...

 

[Jesta]

@Jesta: Wembley '86 might show Queen at the top of their career. The tour had a great set list and everything, but Freddie's voice was... meh, not so great during that tour.

I do however recommend Montreal '81 on Blu-Ray (shot on 35 mm, just like the Bad concert were supposedly shot). His voice was great during that time and the set list isn't so generic as the Magic Tour set list.

As far as 'You Don't Fool Me' goes. That one was indeed put together from bits and pieces. Here's some extra backround info on the track.

"You Don't Fool Me" was one of the last tracks recorded for Made in Heaven and came about in a most unusual way. May has explained on his website that producer for the band, David Richards, more or less created the framework of the song single handedly, building from bits of lyrics recorded just before Mercury's death. May has said that before Richards' work, there was no song to speak of. However, after Richards edited and mixed the song (including a bit of harmonies recorded for "A Winter's Tale") he presented it to the band. May, Taylor and Deacon then added their instruments and backing vocals and were surprised to end up with a finished song that had begun as nothing. The style of the song is reminiscent of their 1982 album Hot Space, and a comment over that featured on their Greatest Hits III album. The theme of the song could also be a continuation of the story told by prior Queen songs Play the Game and It's a Hard Life."

Thanks for the suggestions!! I'll keep those two in mind Exactly, You Don't Fool Me was a completely fabricated song, and it was only because of their producer that the song came into existence. Now, surely that song should sound a lot worse than the Cascio tracks, correct? I mean, the Cascio tracks are at least 80% new vocals which were purposefully created for a song, whereas You Don't Fool Me was created entirely from purposeless vocal fragments from a dying man. So why does this song sound Freddie-ish, as if he had sung the vocal fragments especially for this one song? Why don't the Cascio tracks - purposefully made for their current form - not sound Michael-ish and why does it become obvious where there are copy-pasted vocals?

 

[kreen]

There's no mind playing tricks. I have showed it via audio files. Micheal has always pronounced "waiting", "waitin'/waiting".

Jason Malachi, in his own song pronounced "wai'in". JUST like in Stay and Monster.

And is Jason's vibrato "probably electronically enhanced somehow" (another excuse, clearly)?

Listen to this: http://hu.lk/349nk3vb3uuq Yes, listen to all of it, at least a few mins.

THEN listen to this http://hu.lk/6pdnabdiey7d
(Don't worry, I cut out the unreleased songs)

Tell me, do these comparisons have any scientific value, or are they basically subjective? If I told you I don't hear what you hear, and find them not convincing at all, what would -- could -- you say?

 

[kreen]

He was a doubeter when the songs first hit the web.

Yes, and I'm proud to say I realized there was no hoax after all. Imagine still believing in a hoax more than a year after the fact, when even the Jacksons and John McClain have realized the songs are perfectly authentic.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Except MJ doesn't "switch dialects" on the Cascio songs. You know it, especially if you have the expertise you claim to have in this field. The idea that MJ on the Cascio songs has an "accent" that is as different as his regular accent as the difference between Scottish and Australian is preposterous : you guys are taking insignificant, slight, rare, barely-there differences and turning them into strong evidence. Sorry, I know that's conspiracy-theory 101, but I don't fall for that.

If you had intensively studied phonetics and phonology for several years, you'd quickly understand that there is no conspiracy nor that our minds are playing tricks on us when it comes to hearing some oddities in the voice.