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Michael - The Great Album Debate

IvoDT said:
I think the reason for this was to make the album more diverse.
For example, not all the cascio songs were "good" enough to be put on one album, imo. Take Fall In Love for example. Much Too Soon/Best Of Joy sounds much better (from what we know) right?

So it's not really strange that they didn't put them all on the album.

I still do hope they release Burn Tonight somehow. Such a good song.
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The question was never were they good or bad songs. Most of them are indeed very catchy. The question was always focused on the lead vocals themselves.

Now, it's a posthumous release, and I don't really see why the album Michael flows better with diverse songs than if they released them as a 2007 era? They had a complete album with catchy songs and the same studio environment.
 
Chamife said:
[youtube]o1JFR8pmTS4[/youtube]
[youtube]mE6DjsaQUdg[/youtube]
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So here is a very simple question to the Estate and SONY: what does Seth Riggs say about who sings on the Cascio tracks?
I'd rather believe him than any musicologist on Earth.

A year ago I sent him an e-mail, but I never got the reply. I am sure the Estate would be much more successful than I in reaching out for him and have him giving his opinion.
 
Billyjeanplxiv said:
Can one of us contact Seth Riggs on the subject of Cascio Tracks?
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I did it, but no reply. I just don't get why the Estate is silent about Seth Riggs, as if he didn't exist, yet we have a voice controversy that is at stake.
 
The Estate was right about one thing in their report:

"Although there still seem to be concerns being expressed in some quarters about the authenticity of the lead vocals, notwithstanding the opinion of those who worked with Michael, and two independent forensic analysts, ultimately, Michael’s fans will be the judges of these songs, as they always are."

But since they decided to release those tracks anyway, I doubt their sincerity when they say:

"We take all fan comments very seriously, and as I’d stated above, there is nothing more important to the Estate than Michael’s music, his legacy and his fans."

The MJ fan community has never ever been so divided since the release of the Cascio tracks. As they decided to go on with that project, they OWE the doubters ALL the proof they have including the analysed acappellas (at least streaming them), publishing the experts' reports an have Seth Rigg's opinion. Only then we can talk about objectivity, transparency and concerns for MJ's fans. We can't rely only on their words without seeing a damn thing except what we hear on those tracks..​
 
BUMPER SNIPPET;3614766 said:
The Estate was right about one thing in their report:

"Although there still seem to be concerns being expressed in some quarters about the authenticity of the lead vocals, notwithstanding the opinion of those who worked with Michael, and two independent forensic analysts, ultimately, Michael’s fans will be the judges of these songs, as they always are."

But since they decided to release those tracks anyway, I doubt their sincerity when they say:

"We take all fan comments very seriously, and as I’d stated above, there is nothing more important to the Estate than Michael’s music, his legacy and his fans."

The MJ fan community has never ever been so divided since the release of the Cascio tracks. As they decided to go on with that project, they OWE the doubters ALL the proof they have including the analysed acappellas (at least streaming them), publishing the experts' reports an have Seth Rigg's opinion. Only then we can talk about objectivity, transparency and concerns for MJ's fans. We can't rely only on their words without seeing a damn thing except what we hear on those tracks..​
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WHile I agree with this, I just want to remind you all there are far more "believers" as you call them (people who don't know/don't care) in the world than people who are doubters. The very fact this "problem" isn't in the news says enough as in, they do not see it as a big enough reason/problem to take action for it.

2 reasons:
Either they changed their opinion and think they are real.
Or they are just too damn lazy/scared to take actions with their words.

Who knows..
 
IvoDT said:
WHile I agree with this, I just want to remind you all there are far more "believers" as you call them (people who don't know/don't care) in the world than people who are doubters. The very fact this "problem" isn't in the news says enough as in, they do not see it as a big enough reason/problem to take action for it.

2 reasons:
Either they changed their opinion and think they are real.
Or they are just too damn lazy/scared to take actions with their words.

Who knows..
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They did remove Monster from the Immortal tour. So, they do know that the fans are still strongly divided because of those songs. They just opted to put their heads into the sand hoping that the fans will forget about the Cascio issue.
 
IvoDT said:
WHile I agree with this, I just want to remind you all there are far more "believers" as you call them (people who don't know/don't care) in the world than people who are doubters. The very fact this "problem" isn't in the news says enough as in, they do not see it as a big enough reason/problem to take action for it.

2 reasons:
Either they changed their opinion and think they are real.
Or they are just too damn lazy/scared to take actions with their words.

Who knows..
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How do you know this exactly? Really, no one knows how many doubters, believers, inbetweeners there are...I know a lot of members at least on this forum that don't even bother coming to this thread, but doubt the songs just as much as other doubters do...People feel helpless and don't feel a need to come to a forum to express their displeasure or to even question anything anymore or a lot didn't even bother discussing anything on a forum at all.....So it can go both ways...There could be a lot more doubters than anyone else...who knows...

It's just the fact that this statement stated numerous times that the fans are the ultimate judges, etc, etc...Yet, they contradict themselves by actually going ahead and including the songs anyway...I know there are some believers that want to hear the Cascio songs and really want them released on future albums, but I believe there are a lot more believers, along with the doubters and don't-knowers that ultimately don't want anymore Cascio songs to see the light of day simply because of the trouble they cause and no one really knows if they're Michael or not, so why continue including them?
 
How I know this?

Simply, if everyone thought it was NOT MJ singing on those songs, there WOULD have been a lawsuit, simple as that.
Instead, what we have now are people in forums shouting this and that without taking action (saying they can't etc etc).
While I won't say it's easy/how to take action, I like to remind you guys that we've been in the same forum (goes for other forums aswell) and fighting with each other about these tracks. What apparently everyone still doesn't realize is that this is still going nowhere and if people go on like this, it could take another 2 years.

Therefore, it's safe to assume people (who bought the album/listened to it) are in peace with the tracks or just simply don't care enough to take action/become mad. I do not call those people doubters. They're thinking logical as in, Sony wouldn't take such a big risk etc etc.
 
Besides, Seth Riggs had been coaching Michael in ALL SITUATIONS for over 30 YEARS! I just have hard time believing that the Estate didn't contact him at all. If they didn't contact him, I wonder why. If they did contact him, why they don't say anything about his opinion? Wouldn't Seth Riggs be one of the real BEST people to give his opinion on this subject?
 
IvoDT said:
How I know this?

Simply, if everyone thought it was NOT MJ singing on those songs, there WOULD have been a lawsuit, simple as that.
Instead, what we have now are people in forums shouting this and that without taking action (saying they can't etc etc).
While I won't say it's easy/how to take action, I like to remind you guys that we've been in the same forum (goes for other forums aswell) and fighting with each other about these tracks. What apparently everyone still doesn't realize is that this is still going nowhere and if people go on like this, it could take another 2 years.

Therefore, it's safe to assume people (who bought the album/listened to it) are in peace with the tracks or just simply don't care enough to take action/become mad. I do not call those people doubters. They're thinking logical as in, Sony wouldn't take such a big risk etc etc.
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Read comments on all other MJ forums across the world and youtube and so on. You'll see that the number of the doubters is not that negligable as you make it sound.

There can't be a lawsuit without any proof. Besides, suing who and for what with what tools as proof in court of law?
 
What I agree that this thread is really going no where. The Michael Debate thread will go on even till last day of this forum (hope there won't be such day lol) until some official conclusion would be made - meaning, showing us the analysis they've done and some real proof - demos, video recordings. Although I deeply doubt that would ever happen, therefore this is probably gonna be neverending thread.
 
MJJLatvia said:
What I agree that this thread is really going no where. The Michael Debate thread will go on even till last day of this forum (hope there won't be such day lol) until some official conclusion would be made - meaning, showing us the analysis they've done and some real proof - demos, video recordings. Although I deeply doubt that would ever happen, therefore this is probably gonna be neverending thread.
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I can agree with you there...Of course we're going around in circles, we don't need to be reminded of that...lol...Unfortunately, there are no definite answers, so this thread is a way to try and figure stuff out...since no one has any proof and ultimately really can't do anything legally speaking...
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Did you read what I wrote?

What if JM's also matched the waveform? And by the way, my question was what exactly matches with what? They compared the waveforms of sentences sung in the Cascio songs with sentences from previous MJ's acappellas. So how tehy draw conclusion based on a coppariosn of different things only by reading the waveforms? How they know a soundalike wouldn't match the same criteria?
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Isn't wave testing 99.9% accurate like DNA ?


I was watching some documentary on how Osama Bin Laden was found, they knew it was him before the assassination because they were spying on him and his voice was examined by forensic analysts to make sure it matched the one that they knew was his own and it did so that gave the green light to continue the mission.
 
Yeah, as long as you guys keep accusing each other, and Sony/The cascio's this won't be forgotten.

Seriously, wouldn't it be better to just try and take action instead of doing nothing else than fight each other in this forum, to which we ALL apparently agree on that it adds nothing to the actual issue?
 
IvoDT said:
Yeah, as long as you guys keep accusing each other, and Sony/The cascio's this won't be forgotten.

Seriously, wouldn't it be better to just try and take action instead of doing nothing else than fight each other in this forum, to which we ALL apparently agree on that it adds nothing to the actual issue?
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Where do you see fighting?

You can rush in to all kinds of stupid actions, which will get you no where, but it's better to use your head. Doesn't matter how long it takes.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
Isn't wave testing 99.9% accurate like DNA ?
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Unfortunately not. What some professional refer to as a voiceprint, in reality there is no such thing. It's just a jargon term to make it easier for the communication between professionals, but it has no scientific value at all.


ADKIc3mAnX said:
I was watching some documentary on how Osama Bin Laden was found, they knew it was him before the assassination because they were spying on him and his voice was examined by forensic analysts to make sure it matched the one that they knew was his own and it did so that gave the green light to continue the mission.
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The Ben Laden case is not the same. Audio forensics and muscicologist forensics are not the same disciplines nor the same people behind those disciplines.

In case of Ben Laden, if a forensic was hired it was probably an audio forensic, not a musicologist.

Now, having said that, the audio forensic can help the case, but cannot guarantee a 100% success or certainty that it was Ben Laden.

On top of that, comparing speeches are less complex than a singing voice due to the change of intonations that follows the melody. For example, when Michael speaks he usually has a very soft spoken voice, but when he sings, his voice becomes different from his speaking voice. And to make it more complex, his voice in some songs are sometimes high, sometimes low. Those exaggerate nuances are usually not present in speeches delivered by Ben Laden.
 
IvoDT said:
Yeah, as long as you guys keep accusing each other, and Sony/The cascio's this won't be forgotten.

Seriously, wouldn't it be better to just try and take action instead of doing nothing else than fight each other in this forum, to which we ALL apparently agree on that it adds nothing to the actual issue?
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There is no direct accusation. Just speculation. Now, the first concern is more info from those analyses.
 
Arklove said:
I understand about the confidentiality issue...But SOMETHING must have made them decide to contact JM...If he's a well-known impersonator that was mistaken for Michael in the past...Maybe they asked him if it was him, and maybe they actually did ask if they could perform analysis of his acappellas to the Cascio songs...Maybe JM declined this? Then you'd have to wonder why he would, does he have something to hide? Maybe they just decided to take his word for it when he denied his involvement...But what is the use of asking JM in the first place without doing anything tangible? It doesn't help to just 'ask' him...
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This is something I've always been curious about. Just who identified Jason as a possible contender? Thing is, nobody actually spoke to Jason as far as we know, they spoke to his manager, Thad Nauden. Nothing unusual there. That's the first person they would go to. They actually spoke to Nauden and he also received a call from Sony...

Monday, October 18, 2010
Michael Jackson's Estate and John Branca.
October 18 - Received a call from Michael Jackson's Estate. John your a great guy, hope to meet you someday.

RIP MJ.
Posted by stagerecording.com at 8:31 PM 0 comments

Tuesday, October 19, 2010
Michael Jackson's Estate Part 2.
October 19 - Received another call from my idol's estate.

Man..... I just wish you would have called me at least a year and a half earlier.

I'm here if you guys need me again.

GOD Bless!

RIP MJ.
Posted by stagerecording.com at 8:33 PM 0 comments

Wednesday, October 20, 2010
Sony Records
October 20 - Linked up with The VP of Marketing and A & R for Sony Music (New York).

John, it was great speaking with you! I'm going to take you up on the face to face sooner than later. I definitely look forward to linking up with you and your staff!

I'm here if you need me.

Stage Recordings Loves SONY Music Group!
Posted by stagerecording.com at 8:38 PM 0 comments

And here is what he said in the days leading up to BN premiere...

Sunday, November 7, 2010
MICHAEL JACKSON
I cannot wait to hear Michael's new music! My daughters and I are excited and we anticipate another great hit from the King Of Pop, Michael Jackson.

According to Sony the new song "Breaking News" will be able to be heard starting at midnight tonight.
Posted by stagerecording.com at 8:48 AM 0 comments

Monday, November 8, 2010
"Breaking News"
Loving the new Michael Jackson song "Breaking News"

Can't wait for the new "Michael" album to drop in December.
Posted by stagerecording.com at 11:02 AM 0 comments

And this is what he said after the controversy erupted...

Monday, November 22, 2010
No Statement Needed.
At this time Stage Recordings & Publishing, LLC. and their affiliates feel that there is no need for any statements at this time.

A lot of Michael Jackson fans and the general public wants my client Jason Malachi to make a statement regarding Michael Jackson's new album and some of the tracks on the new album. Why?

We are focusing on Jason's career and we are looking forward to the release of his new c.d. sometime in the 2nd or 3rd quarter of 2011.

We promise that his new c.d. will amaze all and cross all borders and boundaries. This will be his finest work to date. We look forward to the release and traveling to all parts of the world with a tour and promoting the project. We also hope that all Michael Jackson fans enjoy and embrace it as well.

Jason has never been a Michael Jackson impersonator, but he has been truly influenced by Mr. Jackson as well as many others.

Stage Recordings & Publishing, LLC.
Posted by stagerecording.com at 11:05 AM 0 comments
 
StellaJackson said:
This is something I've always been curious about. Just who identified Jason as a possible contender? Thing is, nobody actually spoke to Jason as far as we know, they spoke to his manager, Thad Nauden. Nothing unusual there. That's the first person they would go to. They actually spoke to Nauden and he also received a call from Sony...

Monday, October 18, 2010
Michael Jackson's Estate and John Branca.
October 18 - Received a call from Michael Jackson's Estate. John your a great guy, hope to meet you someday.

RIP MJ.
Posted by stagerecording.com at 8:31 PM 0 comments

Tuesday, October 19, 2010
Michael Jackson's Estate Part 2.
October 19 - Received another call from my idol's estate.

Man..... I just wish you would have called me at least a year and a half earlier.

I'm here if you guys need me again.

GOD Bless!

RIP MJ.
Posted by stagerecording.com at 8:33 PM 0 comments

Wednesday, October 20, 2010
Sony Records
October 20 - Linked up with The VP of Marketing and A & R for Sony Music (New York).

John, it was great speaking with you! I'm going to take you up on the face to face sooner than later. I definitely look forward to linking up with you and your staff!

I'm here if you need me.

Stage Recordings Loves SONY Music Group!
Posted by stagerecording.com at 8:38 PM 0 comments

And here is what he said in the days leading up to BN premiere...

Sunday, November 7, 2010
MICHAEL JACKSON
I cannot wait to hear Michael's new music! My daughters and I are excited and we anticipate another great hit from the King Of Pop, Michael Jackson.

According to Sony the new song "Breaking News" will be able to be heard starting at midnight tonight.
Posted by stagerecording.com at 8:48 AM 0 comments

Monday, November 8, 2010
"Breaking News"
Loving the new Michael Jackson song "Breaking News"

Can't wait for the new "Michael" album to drop in December.
Posted by stagerecording.com at 11:02 AM 0 comments

And this is what he said after the controversy erupted...

Monday, November 22, 2010
No Statement Needed.
At this time Stage Recordings & Publishing, LLC. and their affiliates feel that there is no need for any statements at this time.

A lot of Michael Jackson fans and the general public wants my client Jason Malachi to make a statement regarding Michael Jackson's new album and some of the tracks on the new album. Why?

We are focusing on Jason's career and we are looking forward to the release of his new c.d. sometime in the 2nd or 3rd quarter of 2011.

We promise that his new c.d. will amaze all and cross all borders and boundaries. This will be his finest work to date. We look forward to the release and traveling to all parts of the world with a tour and promoting the project. We also hope that all Michael Jackson fans enjoy and embrace it as well.

Jason has never been a Michael Jackson impersonator, but he has been truly influenced by Mr. Jackson as well as many others.

Stage Recordings & Publishing, LLC.
Posted by stagerecording.com at 11:05 AM 0 comments
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And I had naively thought that they contacted Jason because we the fans thought it was Jason. Actually they had already contacted him before the fans even knew anything about the songs or the controversy.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
And I had naively thought that they contacted Jason because we the fans thought it was Jason. Actually they had already contacted him before the fans even knew anything about the songs or the controversy.
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Yes three weeks before BN was streamed. I believe, based on when Teddy Riley began working on the songs and what was stated by Taryll Jackson, that they both raised concerns around early September.
 
Chamife said:
There should be a way to get the names of both experts (formal letter to Sony, The Estate?) so we can contact them (formal letter again) and ask if it is possible they care to explain to us (fans and laymen) how in this case the analysis was conducted exactly, as many fans have questions about it. Most experts are proud of their work, so I see no reason why they wouldn't adress that question.
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good luck getting in touch with people who don't exist. i don't even believe they did an analysis. they've lied about everything else.

of everything bumper has written, there are really only 2 questions about the estate's statement that i care about:
-Why the Estate doesn't post the report made by the forensic?
-Why SONY doesn't post the report made by their forensic?

ya. where are those? they don't exist.

there's really no reason not to publish those findings. even if, for some reason, they DIDNT want to post the actual analysis, they could have at least cited a name. I mean, who does that?? you can't just credit 2 vague nameless "experts." It's completely not credible. It would be like writing a research paper and putting in all your "facts" but not citing a source. If your works cited page listed "various experts in their field" you would get a big fat FAIL on that paper, i tell ya what.

they cited nothing, offered nothing credible, released songs that sound nothing like michael, and people still believe them. Wow, they have the easiest job in the world.
 
azsummergirl said:
good luck getting in touch with people who don't exist. i don't even believe they did an analysis. they've lied about everything else.

of everything bumper has written, there are really only 2 questions about the estate's statement that i care about:
-Why the Estate doesn't post the report made by the forensic?
-Why SONY doesn't post the report made by their forensic?

ya. where are those? they don't exist.
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You forgot the third question:

Why are they silent about Seth Riggs's opinion? :D
 
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