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Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Tony R said:
Yes, I hear you. But at the time, these songs were the exception rather than the rule so it had novelty value.

No most of the Top 40 is filled with this crap, and the good songs are the exception.

But in all fairness, I don't remember George, Michael, Prince or Madonna suffering as a result of this. I think their sales started dwindling due to the fact that as they got older the record buying public identified with them less.

Hence why Lady Gaga now outsells Madonna even though M's last album was far superior.

Same with George, not many 13-19 year olds identify with GM, but will do with (ahem!) N-Dubz (I was just a little sick in my mouth).

Your original point probably still stands though, but records such as Ride On Time or Theme From S-Express were still excellent at the their time.
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It's not only a question of young/old artists, but the style of music that was in -- repetitive, without lyrics and with no singing skills.

In the 80S Tom Jones was considered as an older singer, yet his version of "KISS" was a huge hit.

[youtube]aq3Vx28wG7Y[/youtube]
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

samhabib said:
Exactly. Forget the million and one excuses for why it doesn't sound like Michael Jackson. The most probable reason is just ONE reason... it doesn't sound like Michael Jackson because it's not Michael Jackson.
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When I play these songs, nothing but laughter is coming out of me by the thought of all the people actually believing that this is Michael Jackson. It's absolutely absurd and laughably to me.

Nothing will ever, ever change my mind.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
It's not only a question of young/old artists, but the style of music that was in -- repetitive, without lyrics and with no singing skills.

In the 80S Tom Jones was considered as an older singer, yet his version of "KISS" was a huge hit.

[youtube]aq3Vx28wG7Y[/youtube]
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Well, there's always the exception that proves the rule, especially with singles.

E.g. Madonna's 4 Minutes was a huge hit as was Hung Up.

But on the whole, the older an artist gets the less they sell, irrelevant of the quality of the music.

E.g. Had Timberlake released You Rock My World it probably would have been a bigger hit.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Pentum, dont condescend me... actually, im going to take this debate to the only level i CAN take it to at this point... The Socratic Method.

Like Socrates i believe that everyone's opinions are not correct and that only opinions that are correct are worth listening to... "The unexamined life, is one not worth living".

Ok, using the socratic method to figure out the truth, this method is the only fair way of comparing opinions.

THE PROBLEM: Michael Jackson did not sing the Cascio tracks.

Step 1: We have to look to common sense first, common sense is quite simply that he must have sung the songs, they have him credited as singing them, and there are witnesses who stated he sang them.

Step 2: We now have to automatically assume that this conclusion is false, what situations are there that these songs are fake? Sony hired a sound a like (Jason Malachi/Someone else) to record the songs after Michael died, perhaps Sony were given the tracks that were fake from the Cascios, or maybe the Cascios got it from Michaels vault, or Michael's family and the Cascios assumed the vocals were Michael, and the family knew it was just someone who demo'd the songs for Michael.

Step 3: As there IS a possibility that common sense could be wrong partially or entirely, as it is in this instance, we move to step 4.

Step 4: We now need to present common sense as the final answer... but we must include our new found exceptions, is it possible, that Michael sang the tracks and have people fill in parts for him? Is it possible that the tracks were demo'd by someone else, at Michaels instruction? Is it even remotely possible that Michael, desperate to restart his career hired an imposter himself, to record for him while he took care of his kids?

Step 5: This is where it gets tricky, we must now prove or disprove the questions raised in step 4, using the same process until the truth is found, everytime someone brings up a possible scenario in which one of the statements are false, i will continue, but as it stands, those are the questions.

There is no other way to debate what is all opinion, the only other way to do it, is to present facts, which of course, none of us actually HAVE
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Tony R said:
Well, there's always the exception that proves the rule, especially with singles.

E.g. Madonna's 4 Minutes was a huge hit as was Hung Up.

But on the whole, the older an artist gets the less they sell, irrelevant of the quality of the music.

E.g. Had Timberlake released You Rock My World it probably would have been a bigger hit.
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I understand what you mean completely, but your theory would probably be correct if there weren't many examples showing that many artists sold more when they got older than when they were younger.

Such are:

-Stevie wonder, (when he was younger sold less than when he made huge hits such as Superstition, Master Blaster Jammin', I just called to say I love you.)
-Lionel Richie
-The Jackson 5 from the 70s vs The Jacksons or vs Michael Jackson in the 80s and 90s
-Madonna (80s) vs Madonna (90s and even after)
-U2 (80s) vs U2 (beginning of the 90s)
-Dr Alban (end of 80s) vs Dr Alban (first half of the 90s)
etc.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Pentum said:
When I play these songs, nothing but laughter is coming out of me by the thought of all the people actually believing that this is Michael Jackson. It's absolutely absurd and laughably to me.

Nothing will ever, ever change my mind.
Click to expand...

You know Pentum, you can laugh as much as you like at me. I don't really care.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

BUMPER SNIPPET said:
I understand what you mean completely, but your theory would probably be correct if there weren't many examples showing that many artists sold more when they got older than when they were younger.

Such are:

-Stevie wonder, (when he was younger sold less than when he made huge hits such as Superstition, Master Blaster Jammin', I just called to say I love you.)
-Lionel Richie
-The Jackson 5 from the 70s vs The Jacksons or vs Michael Jackson in the 80s and 90s
-Madonna (80s) vs Madonna (90s and even after)
-U2 (80s) vs U2 (beginning of the 90s)
-Dr Alban (end of 80s) vs Dr Alban (first half of the 90s)
etc.
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Yeah but MJ in the 80s was still in his 20s/30s so was young, albeit not as young as J5!
Madonna sold more in the 80s, and again in early 90s was still in her early 30s.
Stevie may have had the off huge hit in the 80s, but album wise he's much more of a 70s artist.
The U2 band sold more in the 80s/early 90s
Dr Alban? How did he show up? He's only known here for It's My Life.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Tony R said:
Yeah but MJ in the 80s was still in his 20s/30s so was young, albeit not as young as J5!
Madonna sold more in the 80s, and again in early 90s was still in her early 30s.
Stevie may have had the off huge hit in the 80s, but album wise he's much more of a 70s artist.
The U2 band sold more in the 80s/early 90s
Dr Alban? How did he show up? He's only known here for It's My Life.
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[youtube]pYImEf_-km0&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]jMKqXyOIUD8[/youtube]

Ok, They were from the year 1990, yet I considered them still as reminent of the end of the 80s as the songs were written in the 80s (just like the Dangerous album by Michael Jackson).
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Maksima40 said:
You know Pentum, you can laugh as much as you like at me. I don't really care.
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And I don't care that you don't care.


larry141094 said:
Pentum, dont condescend me... actually, im going to take this debate to the only level i CAN take it to at this point... The Socratic Method.

Like Socrates i believe that everyone's opinions are not correct and that only opinions that are correct are worth listening to... "The unexamined life, is one not worth living".

Ok, using the socratic method to figure out the truth, this method is the only fair way of comparing opinions.

THE PROBLEM: Michael Jackson did not sing the Cascio tracks.

Step 1: We have to look to common sense first, common sense is quite simply that he must have sung the songs, they have him credited as singing them, and there are witnesses who stated he sang them.

Step 2: We now have to automatically assume that this conclusion is false, what situations are there that these songs are fake? Sony hired a sound a like (Jason Malachi/Someone else) to record the songs after Michael died, perhaps Sony were given the tracks that were fake from the Cascios, or maybe the Cascios got it from Michaels vault, or Michael's family and the Cascios assumed the vocals were Michael, and the family knew it was just someone who demo'd the songs for Michael.

Step 3: As there IS a possibility that common sense could be wrong partially or entirely, as it is in this instance, we move to step 4.

Step 4: We now need to present common sense as the final answer... but we must include our new found exceptions, is it possible, that Michael sang the tracks and have people fill in parts for him? Is it possible that the tracks were demo'd by someone else, at Michaels instruction? Is it even remotely possible that Michael, desperate to restart his career hired an imposter himself, to record for him while he took care of his kids?

Step 5: This is where it gets tricky, we must now prove or disprove the questions raised in step 4, using the same process until the truth is found, everytime someone brings up a possible scenario in which one of the statements are false, i will continue, but as it stands, those are the questions.

There is no other way to debate what is all opinion, the only other way to do it, is to present facts, which of course, none of us actually HAVE
Click to expand...
At least, with my small audio comparison videos, I've managed to make people find what to believe in. People were unsure, saw my videos (and other videos) and stopped being unsure. Why? Because the audio was so damning, and to them, it was just plain obvious the singer has the same voice as Jason.

I don't care what any company or person told me, the singer is not Michael Jackson.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Pentum said:
When I play these songs, nothing but laughter is coming out of me by the thought of all the people actually believing that this is Michael Jackson. It's absolutely absurd and laughably to me.

Nothing will ever, ever change my mind.
Click to expand...

What an inspiring display of open-mindedness.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Pentum said:
And I don't care that you don't care.



At least, with my small audio comparison videos, I've managed to make people find what to believe in. People were unsure, saw my videos (and other videos) and stopped being unsure. Why? Because the audio was so damning, and to them, it was just plain obvious the singer has the same voice as Jason.

I don't care what any company or person told me, the singer is not Michael Jackson.
Click to expand...

What makes you think that the audio which you used to compare to the Cascio tracks was what changed their mind?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Pentum said:
I don't care what any company or person told me, the singer is not Michael Jackson.
Click to expand...

No company can tell me what I'm listening to. It's not Michael Jackson, as far as I'm concerned. And no 'analysis' will change that.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The worst thing about BN is its intro.
"Clock ticking to destroy Michael Jackson"? Come on, who came up with this? A 5 years old?
At first I didn't even pay attention to the intro, but once I've noticed it, it's becoming more and more annoying day by day. Putting the vocal controversy aside, this single line destroys the whole song.
Couldn't they just sample some actual news? Or did someone actually say such stupid thing?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
What makes you think that the audio which you used to compare to the Cascio tracks was what changed their mind?
Click to expand...
Feedback?

It's not only fans here at MJJC I've been showing all the audios to, trust me.


kreen said:
What an inspiring display of open-mindedness.
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Do I have to be one of the "I don't think it's Michael Jackson singing, but I am open minded and totally ready to be proven wrong because it might be" guys?

fzsky said:
The worst thing about BN is its intro.
"Clock ticking to destroy Michael Jackson"? Come on, who came up with this? A 5 years old?
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It's just as ironic as the lyrics "Fake faking breaking the news", 'They're gunning for the money so they fake it" and "why did you fake it?".

Arklove said:
Same here....Absolutely...
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Yeah, there, I said it. I might be the first one to say that nothing will ever change my mind. People might start to ignore me and pay no attention to me, but to be honest, I don't care. It's just my opinion.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Pentum said:
Feedback?

It's not only fans here at MJJC I've been showing all the audios to, trust me.

So if Michael is not on the tracks, who benefited from it? and if no one did, why did they do it? And if you dont know why they did it, can we assume the possibility of those tracks being Michael?
Click to expand...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Pentum said:
I might be the first one to say that nothing will ever change my mind.
Click to expand...

Get in the queue, there, flyboy... :)
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

There is no possible way that's Michael Jackson singing...Not according to my ears....I won't betray what I trust the most...My own damn hearing....Period.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Arklove said:
There is no possible way that's Michael Jackson singing...Not according to my ears....I won't betray what I trust the most...My own damn hearing....Period.
Click to expand...

Is that enough? Is it enough to call out one of the biggest hoaxes in music history because your ears heard differently?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
So if Michael is not on the tracks, who benefited from it?
Click to expand...

I don't know, but... maybe someone who sang it? Or maybe someone who sold it to Sony?
It's risky, but if is so risky that everybody think that no one will ever do it, maybe it's not risky anymore.
But again, I said MAYBE.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
Is that enough? Is it enough to call out one of the biggest hoaxes in music history because your ears heard differently?
Click to expand...

Absolutely.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

fzsky said:
I don't know, but... maybe someone who sang it? Or maybe someone who sold it to Sony?
It's risky, but if is so risky that everybody think that no one will ever do it, maybe it's not risky anymore.
But again, I said MAYBE.
Click to expand...

So are you saying that someone who sounded like Michael sold the tracks to Sony and tricked them? Or are you saying Sony are in on it?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
And how is it that you know your ears are right?
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How is it that you know your ears are right? Because your hearing is backed up by a statement? Is THAT enough for you?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
So are you saying that someone who sounded like Michael sold the tracks to Sony and tricked them? Or are you saying Sony are in on it?
Click to expand...

No, I said maybe. But if I'm forced to make the story, Sony being in on it would make it look more natural.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Arklove said:
How is it that you know your ears are right? Because your hearing is backed up by a statement? Is THAT enough for you?
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I may or may not be correct, but i go with what i said before, my ears are not my judge, as i have always said, our ears are never correct
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

larry141094 said:
my ears are not my judge, as i have always said, our ears are never correct
Click to expand...

Then you may as well stop listening to music.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

^Arklove: just wondering, I might be wrong, but I can remember you being a lot less certain when this started out. You were hesitant at first, openminded, wanted it to be Michael. What has solified it into an unshakable truth for you that it isn't him? Just curious...
 
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