Michael - The Great Album Debate

[ADKIc3mAnX]

But it was his business to appear on youtube to clear things up before, why not now? What does any concert have to do with my question regarding clearing the doubt up?



You did not correct fact 4, you just added your own fact 5. I am talking about Jason Malachi who himself appeared on youtube, you are talking about his manager. I never denied in any of my facts that his manager did or did not deny.

My fact 4 stands. Jason Malachi himself does not appear at all to clear any doubt up as he did for Mamacita and Let Me Let Go.





The fact remains unchanged, Jason did not appear to say anything at all from his own mouth.



I am not talking about "a lot of times" nor other people. I am talking about Jason's behavior when he appeared himself to clear things up. Now he not only doesn't clear things up, but disappears from the surface of this planet.

By the way, is your opinion based on what you hear on 3 tracks or on 12 tracks? I am asking this, because I don't see how you can make up an opinion on something you did not hear.

Someone said he went into hiding and he is doing concerts so he is not hiding he is just minding his own business.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

12 months for the three released songs.

How many months for the ones that haven't been released? As far as I know, many believers changed their minds after hearing them, so no more discussion was there. And those who haven't heard them continue to talk about the issue without giving clear indication if they heard the songs or not and what is their impression of the voice they heard.

So no, we haven't been discussing for the past 12 months about the same tracks. It's been only since +/- August we've heard the new evidence.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

Someone said he went into hiding and he is doing concerts so he is not hiding he is just minding his own business.

A 12-month tour?

 

[mjmax]

perhaps try the search function ?

At least you don't need the search function to answer the simple question I asked.. You just have to go one page back

 

[Grent]

Grent - Did MJ sue fans due to the leaks? Was MJ sending cease and desists all around?

and it seems some people can't read between the lines.

It seems we always drift apart. I have no idea what you are talking about.
But I don't care anymore.

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

I'm not saying they are a bunch of crazy people. I'm just saying that a line has been crossed.

For example do you think cursing Frank, Teddy Riley on twitter is acceptable ?
Do you think putting the head of Malachi on a body of a goat is nice?
Do you think it's decent to accuse people when you have no proof?
Now imagine that you were at the receiving end of this and other people was doing these to you. How would you feel?

None of the above are investigating, discussing or uncovering anything. It's not productive. It just shows you that people lost their way and cannot even see it. It's actually very sad.

Thank You.

This is why I feel bad for Jason Malachi he is getting the same hate that Michael use to get for what reason ?

NONE.

 

[Pentum]

It seems to me that the voice does not matter anymore. If Jason were to record himself singing a snippet of KYHU (saying nothing else, just singing), it wouldn't have mattered. Because the songs are still registered as MJ, released, blah, blah, blah.

 

[Arklove]

It seems to me that the voice does not matter anymore. If Jason were to record himself singing a snippet of KYHU (saying nothing else, just singing), it wouldn't have mattered. Because the songs are still registered as MJ, released, blah, blah, blah.

Exactly! I was just thinking about that..I personally feel that way too much time is spent discussing the legalities and logistics of it all that it seems we've forgotten a huge elephant in the room...the VOICE...that no one seems to want to elaborate on....if you think it's Michael singing...well, fine....but I don't see a reason to even continue to discuss this matter if you refuse to describe exactly what it is that makes you hear Michael...It's a simple thing....

I don't hear Michael and I've posted numerous times as to WHY I don't hear Michael, in great detail...it's part of the discussion and something I believe strongly in....It's puzzling and frustrating to get such defensive responses (or lack thereof) from those (not all) who believe it's Michael singing.....

 

[ivy]

Win what???? Now you're being sarcastic.

I wasn't being sarcastic - it's was like "whatever I don't care" post.

For example if I tell you that in British English the word "city" is pronounced [siti] and that in American English it is pronounced [sidi], and you deny it, there's no intelligent discussion any more.

I guess not everyone is good with short term/ long term memories. I never denied anything you said about pronunciation. I clearly stated I didn't know anything about it and I wasn't knowledgeable enough to comment on it. Furthermore I never made any claims about pronunciation or even remotely mentioned it in my posts. I am personally aware of what I'm knowledgeable of and what I'm not.

When people like Grent show you things black on white that some things cannot be done as what you seem to stand for, how can we have an intelligent discussion?

It wasn't black on white. I think Grent acknowledged most of what I said to be true but in his opinion not likely. He used terms as "unless you mess it up", and agreed to vibrato's elements and so on. Although I appreciate Grent's knowledge and explaining posts, it doesn't mean that I'll accept them as gospel. I have no idea who Grent is in real life and what is his credentials and knowledge. My musician friends whom I know for decades have different answers and I trust them. Furthermore for example this last week Grent and another person commented that Cascio vocals regardless of being recorded in a basement by a not knowledgeable person was suitable for "final release". I totally disagree with that comment - but didn't see the need to start an argument about it. My past experience showed me that no professional musician would see a basement recording as worthy of final release. Studios, sound engineers etc serve a purpose. So there are some things that I question - and seems to be biased opinion.

It seems we always drift apart. I have no idea what you are talking about.
But I don't care anymore.

Ask your question more directly and I will answer more directly.

As far as I can understand you asked about leaks and not listening to them. and I tried to respond as this wasn't a moral's police position - it wasn't about saying "leaks are bad". and these songs had a different issue about them that included legal consequences for the fans.

It seems to me that the voice does not matter anymore. If Jason were to record himself singing a snippet of KYHU (saying nothing else, just singing), it wouldn't have mattered. Because the songs are still registered as MJ, released, blah, blah, blah.

and now you are being unfair. as I said we discussed the vocals in depth over the last year. In short Jason has a different technique and I'm not convinced he's the one singing. I'm not hearing him and there aren't million different ways to say what I think about the vocals. I already wrote it multiple times. If he was to sing a KYHU snippet and had the exact same technique we would have discussed it. If I believe techniques didn't match , I would have said that as well.

but I don't see a reason to even continue to discuss this matter if you refuse to describe exactly what it is that makes you hear Michael...It's a simple thing....

I don't hear Michael and I've posted numerous times as to WHY I don't hear Michael, in great detail...it's part of the discussion and something I believe strongly in....It's puzzling and frustrating to get such defensive responses (or lack thereof) from those (not all) who believe it's Michael singing.....

Again a memory limitation? I personally discussed this in depth - back &forth with TPIMaster months ago. I explained it in detail. And honestly it's not my problem if you don't remember it or chose to classify it as "excuse" and not give importance to it. And actually it's this approach that stopped me from responding to it. and honestly writing the same thing a million times - well is boring.

edited to add: and the other day when Bumper posted the video of Jason in his living room and I asked 2 questions saying "forget timbre and so on does he sound like Michael? does the live snippet or the studio recording sound more like Michael?" it was actually to start a discussion about the vocals but none of you responded. So pot calling kettle black I guess.

 

[ADKIc3mAnX]

A 12-month tour?

Tour ? I said concerts like little shows in airports, etc.

 

[Arklove]

I wasn't being sarcastic - it's was like "whatever I don't care" post.



I guess not everyone is good with short term/ long term memories. I never denied anything you said about pronunciation. I clearly stated I didn't know anything about it and I wasn't knowledgeable enough to comment on it. Furthermore I never made any claims about pronunciation or even remotely mentioned it in my posts. I am personally aware of what I'm knowledgeable of and what I'm not.



It wasn't black on white. I think Grent acknowledged most of what I said to be true but in his opinion not likely. He used terms as "unless you mess it up", and agreed to vibrato's elements and so on. Although I appreciate Grent's knowledge and explaining posts, it doesn't mean that I'll accept them as gospel. I have no idea who Grent is in real life and what is his credentials and knowledge. My musician friends whom I know for decades have different answers and I trust them. Furthermore for example this last week Grent and another person commented that Cascio vocals regardless of being recorded in a basement by a not knowledgeable person was suitable for "final release". I totally disagree with that comment - but didn't see the need to start an argument about it. My past experience showed me that no professional musician would see a basement recording as worthy of final release. Studios, sound engineers etc serve a purpose. So there are some things that I question - and seems to be biased opinion.



Ask your question more directly and I will answer more directly.

As far as I can understand you asked about leaks and not listening to them. and I tried to respond as this wasn't a moral's police position - it wasn't about saying "leaks are bad". and these songs had a different issue about them that included legal consequences for the fans.



and now you are being unfair. as I said we discussed the vocals in depth over the last year. In short Jason has a different technique and I'm not convinced he's the one singing. I'm not hearing him and there aren't million different ways to say what I think about the vocals. I already wrote it multiple times. If he was to sing a KYHU snippet and had the exact same technique we would have discussed it. If I believe techniques didn't match , I would have said that as well.



Again a memory limitation? I personally discussed this in depth - back &forth with TPIMaster months ago. I explained it in detail. And honestly it's not my problem if you don't remember it or chose to classify it as "excuse" and not give importance to it. And actually it's this approach that stopped me from responding to it. and honestly writing the same thing a million times - well is boring.

edited to add: and the other day when Bumper posted the video of Jason in his living room and I asked 2 questions saying "forget timbre and so on does he sound like Michael? does the live snippet or the studio recording sound more like Michael?" it was actually to start a discussion about the vocals but none of you responded. So pot calling kettle black I guess.

Ivy I know you've explained what you hear...I even responded to it awhile back and you never wanted to discuss it further...Second of all, I never mentioned EXCUSE once in my post so why you had to bring that up, I really don't know...

Thirdly, I barely post here anymore, so I missed your post in response to Bumper's....I'm also tired of saying the same thing over and over again, and you KNOW I've described numerous times why I don't hear Michael....But you've also discussed the same thing over and over again with regards to legalities and registration and other such things...The entire subject has been beaten to death as we all know...

Of course Jason sounds a bit like Michael, but I hear tons and tons of differences that I attribute to Michael's astounding talent and truly unique voice...I was more talking about those believers who refuse to describe why they hear Michael....

 

[ivy]

Ivy I know you've explained what you hear...I even responded to it awhile back and you never wanted to discuss it further...Second of all, I never mentioned EXCUSE once in my post so why you had to bring that up, I really don't know...

Thirdly, I barely post here anymore, so I missed your post in response to Bumper's....I'm also tired of saying the same thing over and over again, and you KNOW I've described numerous times why I don't hear Michael....But you've also discussed the same thing over and over again with regards to legalities and registration and other such things...The entire subject has been beaten to death as we all know...

Of course Jason sounds a bit like Michael, but I hear tons and tons of differences that I attribute to Michael's astounding talent and truly unique voice...I was more talking about those believers who refuse to describe why they hear Michael....

It was a general post and I mentioned "excuses" in general meaning. I mean I explained what I hear and what I didn't hear and went back and forth about it for months. and as I said it's not my problem if some doesn't remember it or just read it and went "meh" and now want me to do write it again or whatever. My answer is simple - I did wrote about it so search it. And I also wrote that people's "meh", "excuse" etc approach made me stop responding to such questions. If what I wrote isn't going to be accepted with respect and discussed about then I have no reason to write it. I'm over it. I really do not care. I also don't want to spend my time explaining myself to a group of people who aren't open to an alternative idea. It's not worth my time and effort.

As for the legalities and registration - you do realize that I'm not the one that's bringing it up right? Calisto brought up registration, Stella mentioned lawsuits and Bumper is going on about statements from the reps and personal statements. I'm not bringing it up. It's just when I see some errors - in some instances factual errors - I correct them. If this thread is to be "about vocals only" then the people who bring up these side topics should also be criticized. People love to act like I'm the one that only goes around "legalities and logic" but for some reason they fail to acknowledge who came up with these issues. I didn't randomly start talking about personal reps, communications through middle man - bumper brought it up. I didn't magically started discussing registrations - Calisto wrote a detailed theory. and I certainly didn't go "gag orders - confidentiality agreements" - Stella mentioned a lawsuit.

 

[Arklove]

Ugh, I'm too tired to argue....Sorry Ivy...

How 'bout some off-topic talk?

 

[Jesta]

Ugh, I'm too tired to argue....Sorry Ivy...

How 'bout some off-topic talk?

I'm up for that! MJ talk or stuff in general?

 

[ivy]

Ugh, I'm too tired to argue....Sorry Ivy...

How 'bout some off-topic talk?

me too. Sponge bob?

 

[mjmax]

Ivy, I'm sorry if you already answered everything about the voice... but I read most of the posts on maxjax & mjjc, and you know, so few comparison with Michael were suggested. Finally KOPV claimed "Best Of Joy" was closer to KYHU than any Jason's songs. Following is initiative, I made two comparisons to discuss concretely about his claim. He never answered. In fact, none of the believers answered, apart ADKIc3mAnX, after insisting many times. I'm not throwing a tantrum for my question.. Pentum, bumper, Kapital, azsummergirl, ... were also being ignored the same way. I have the general impression that doubters are getting ignored when they give accurate facts on the voice. Why escaping? Is there something difficult to admit here?

I'm tired to argue and see that people are even scared to give a point to the other side... This thread is only confrontation. Is there really no way to simply talk very concrete facts?

Korgnex, in his long post, explained how much the doubters are extremist and disrespectful people.. btw, I think the lasts were rather nice not to answer and keep focusing on the debate. They proved they are not the kind of people whom he took so much time to denigrate... Stella even answered by summarizing the concrete facts that allow us to doubt about the tracks' authenticity. This is only one example but very representative of the kind of discussions we have..... -.-
We don't need long moralizing talks, we just need answers to very simple facts.

I'm not saying the doubters are perfect. Some of us are very frustrated.. and please understand that such condescending posts and the feeling to be ignored don't help to calm down the frustration.

I'm really trying to express a malaise here. Surely there are faults on both sides, but I think we can do better than fighting each other..

 

[Arklove]

I'm up for that! MJ talk or stuff in general?

Doesn't matter

me too. Sponge bob?

:rofl: Always a good choice, I'm starting to warm up to Sponge Bob

 

[Jesta]

Woo!! So I watched a review of the 2001 film Moulin Rouge... There's some crazy stuff in that film!!!

Plus I got a tweet from Spike Lee

 

[Chamife]

Ugh, I'm too tired to argue....Sorry Ivy...

How 'bout some off-topic talk?

I'm up for that! MJ talk or stuff in general?

Tomorrow it's the fifth of December, meaning the 'birthday' of SINTERKLAAS and almost all people in The Netherlands (and other countries, see link) are celebrating that. It's an old Dutch tradition. You don't get a day off for it, unfortunately, lol.
All the shops are stuffed with typical dutch treats, like pepernoten and marsepein and you give eachother presents.

Right now I'm busy making a 'surprise', meaning a package for the present I'm going to give, so it's a 'surprise' what is in the package. The package has to be something special also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas

I LOVE SINT

Sinterklaas was the basis for Santa Claus..

So, first we celebrate Sinterklaas and then we celebrate Christmas. First Sint and then Santa Claus.

Thought I'd share.

 

[Arklove]

Woo!! So I watched a review of the 2001 film Moulin Rouge... There's some crazy stuff in that film!!!

Plus I got a tweet from Spike Lee

I've never seen Moulin Rouge :fear: Probably cuz I don't particularly like Nicole Kidman....But...I do like Ewan McGregor :wub:

What'd Spike Lee have to say?

 

[Aniram]

Missed you guys! I'll be back soon.

 

[Jesta]

I've never seen Moulin Rouge :fear: Probably cuz I don't particularly like Nicole Kidman....But...I do like Ewan McGregor :wub:

What'd Spike Lee have to say?

Well he sings about love a lot... Maybe you'll like it! Plus it's got a HILARIOUS rendition of Like a Virgin!

Spike wanted to know why there was never a video for Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'. I replied with my thoughts and got this!

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I wasn't being sarcastic - it's was like "whatever I don't care" post.

How nice of you.

I guess not everyone is good with short term/ long term memories. I never denied anything you said about pronunciation. I clearly stated I didn't know anything about it and I wasn't knowledgeable enough to comment on it. Furthermore I never made any claims about pronunciation or even remotely mentioned it in my posts. I am personally aware of what I'm knowledgeable of and what I'm not.

I didn't say any of what you've just said. I said you seem to ignore all what people from different area are telling you. While you are supporting the theory of subjectivity, I am supporting the theory of facts as far as pronunciation of sounds is concerned. There is a threshold where it is not about subjectivity any more, but about a fact what we hear and what we don't hear.

You indeed never actually commented on any aspects of the pronunciation of the Cascio singer, yet you have claimed you hear Michael. I already told you before if someone from your country came from another city than you, you'd immediately notice a non-local accent, and that's a fact on the Cascio songs. The singer for example pronounces the word "waiting" the same way Jason Malachi pronounces it, not the way Michael pronounces it. Now how can you talk about subjectivity when you clearly hear those differences? And that's only one example among so many.

It wasn't black on white. I think Grent acknowledged most of what I said to be true but in his opinion not likely. He used terms as "unless you mess it up", and agreed to vibrato's elements and so on. Although I appreciate Grent's knowledge and explaining posts, it doesn't mean that I'll accept them as gospel. I have no idea who Grent is in real life and what is his credentials and knowledge. My musician friends whom I know for decades have different answers and I trust them. Furthermore for example this last week Grent and another person commented that Cascio vocals regardless of being recorded in a basement by a not knowledgeable person was suitable for "final release". I totally disagree with that comment - but didn't see the need to start an argument about it. My past experience showed me that no professional musician would see a basement recording as worthy of final release. Studios, sound engineers etc serve a purpose. So there are some things that I question - and seems to be biased opinion.

Oh come on! He posted the picture of waveformat on this very thread to prove his point, and I didn't see any pictures that you posted from your friends.

By the way, he transcribed the notes I was suspecting to be identical between Monster and Let Me LEt Go, which I even posted here on Soundcloud. Such proximity between the two songs could be even considered as plagiarism according to the official documents I read on forensics analyses and law.

I don't know if Grent remembers or if he still has the transcription of the twin-sister melodies I pointed out, but he can confirm it.

 

[Arklove]

Tomorrow it's the fifth of December, meaning the 'birthday' of SINTERKLAAS and almost all people in The Netherlands (and other countries, see link) are celebrating that. It's an old Dutch tradition. You don't get a day off for it, unfortunately, lol.
All the shops are stuffed with typical dutch treats, like pepernoten and marsepein and you give eachother presents.

Right now I'm busy making a 'surprise', meaning a package for the present I'm going to give, so it's a 'surprise' what is in the package. The package has to be something special also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas

I LOVE SINT

Sinterklaas was the basis for Santa Claus..

So, first we celebrate Sinterklaas and then we celebrate Christmas. First Sint and then Santa Claus.

Thought I'd share.

Very cool! I love these types of traditions....That 'marsepein'...it's like 'marzipan'? Sounds similar....

What's the surprise gonna be?

Missed you guys! I'll be back soon.

Hey Aniram! Long time no see

Well he sings about love a lot... Maybe you'll like it! Plus it's got a HILARIOUS rendition of Like a Virgin!

Spike wanted to know why there was never a video for Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'. I replied with my thoughts and got this!

Interesting...Lucky you

 

[Chamife]

Very cool! I love these types of traditions....That 'marsepein'...it's like 'marzipan'? Sounds similar....

What's the surprise gonna be?

Yes, it's 'marzipan'. I was too lazy to translate.

I'm making a stage, made out of a cardboard box with a microphonestand made out of thin ironthread and a background with a 'Billie Jean' spotlight... And a pic of her (daughter) in the spotlight with the microphone right in front of her.

She loves to sing, that's why..

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

It was a general post and I mentioned "excuses" in general meaning. I mean I explained what I hear and what I didn't hear and went back and forth about it for months. and as I said it's not my problem if some doesn't remember it or just read it and went "meh" and now want me to do write it again or whatever. My answer is simple - I did wrote about it so search it. And I also wrote that people's "meh", "excuse" etc approach made me stop responding to such questions. If what I wrote isn't going to be accepted with respect and discussed about then I have no reason to write it. I'm over it. I really do not care. I also don't want to spend my time explaining myself to a group of people who aren't open to an alternative idea. It's not worth my time and effort.

As for the legalities and registration - you do realize that I'm not the one that's bringing it up right? Calisto brought up registration, Stella mentioned lawsuits and Bumper is going on about statements from the reps and personal statements. I'm not bringing it up. It's just when I see some errors - in some instances factual errors - I correct them. If this thread is to be "about vocals only" then the people who bring up these side topics should also be criticized. People love to act like I'm the one that only goes around "legalities and logic" but for some reason they fail to acknowledge who came up with these issues. I didn't randomly start talking about personal reps, communications through middle man - bumper brought it up. I didn't magically started discussing registrations - Calisto wrote a detailed theory. and I certainly didn't go "gag orders - confidentiality agreements" - Stella mentioned a lawsuit.

Why don't you accept then that it is a factual error to assume that all you hear is subjective? I am knocking my head against the wall when trying to tell you that it is not about subjectivity but about the identical pronunciation between Jason and the Cascio singer, yet you just don't accept it, but you allow yourself to correct other people.

 

[IvoDT]

It's Michael and Jason singing together of course (On the cascio tracks)! =P
Both sides happy. =D

 

[Arklove]

Yes, it's 'marzipan'. I was too lazy to translate.

I'm making a stage, made out of a cardboard box with a microphonestand made out of thin ironthread and a background with a 'Billie Jean' spotlight... And a pic of her (daughter) in the spotlight with the microphone right in front of her.

She loves to sing, that's why..

Take a pic and post it on here when you're done :wild:

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

It's Michael and Jason singing together of course (On the cascio tracks)! =P
Both sides happy. =D

Well with copy pasted things from Michael's previous songs, yes, I agree.

 

[BUMPER SNIPPET]

I need some rest too