Latest on MJJC

Michael - The Great Album Debate

Gaz said:
I think we all seem to missing one huge point here,

You have absolutely no evidence to support the fact you all think this is indeed Malachi singing,

And yes on the other side there is absolutely no evidence to which we have that supports it is in fact Michael singing.

Like it or not everything in here is a theory a personal opinion,

Until I have on my desk that evidence I/we/MJJC will not take one bit of what anyone says with any ounce of credit.

And yes I find it deplorable the effects this never ending (over 12 months now with little gained) has had on a community I have spent ten years creating,

All based on what - A Personal opinion a personal belief with no factual evidence to support.
Click to expand...

And that fault lay with the people who chose to put these songs on an album and created this mess. And clearly it is not just a theory put forward by fans as both the Estate/Sony were investigating Jason due to concerns raised behind the scenes before the public ever heard Breaking News. Unfortunately, while a simple "no" from Nauden may have satisfied them, it doesn't satisfy us. And that's all we have: a denial.
The Estate's statement isn't worth the paper it is printed on because while it mentions the people in the listening session who said it was Michael, it omits those who said it wasn't. The alleged forensic tests are irrelevant as we've never seen any results, specifics of the tests, what the margin of error was or anything else. For me, as a fan who has listened to Michael daily for 17 plus years now and having been listening to, and dare I say previously quite enjoying, the music of Jason Cupeta, I have no doubts as to the identity of the singer. We have no hard proof such as pictures, videos or worktapes of either Michael or Jason recording them (and if it was Jason why would we?), all we have is our experience as fans. With so many fans, and indeed non fans, not hearing Michael on these tracks, clearly there is a problem. For me, the comparisons which show identical vocal nuances to Jason including accent, pronounciation and the infamous vibrato to name but a few are indeed strong proof. They are certainly more proof than we have for Michael being the vocalist.

As a "doubter", this situation, and my beliefs, are not about one side being right over the other, nor is it about some imagined agenda against the Cascios, Jason or any other individual or group. It is about one person: Michael Jackson. I would love to be proven wrong. I want to be proven wrong. I don't want to think that Michael was stabbed in the back by the Cascio's, after being so close to them. I don't want to think that after so many years of tireless hard work and dedication to his craft that someone was able to put three fraudulent songs on an album (with a further 9 in the vault), thereby exploiting Michael and his fans. It is insulting beyond words. I would be over the moon to learn the songs are real. Headache over. It is only natural, as humans, for us to want to be right, but not with this. Not with Michael's music. Please don't let this be. But I can't deny want I hear. I hear 12 songs that have multiple takes of lead vocals performed by Jason Cupeta, supported with backing vocals by James Porte and cut together with numerous pasted ad libs from older records. And I see nothing of substance, nothing, to adequately refute that. The people responsible for these songs got paid and seemingly don't care anymore. It is the responsibility of the Estate to protect and respect Michael's legacy. While they have done a good job in most instances, they have failed miserably in this one, and their continued choice to ignore the concerns of a great many fans is only making a bad situation worse. The Michael album was a commercial disaster, despite it's strong potential as a concept and I am afraid that with or without Cascio tracks, future projects may suffer the same fate. The damage is done and as a fan who loves Michael, I am not prepared to sit by and let those who I feel were responsible for this fraud get away with it.

Those are my thoughts and feelings. I have no interest in continued debate. For me, the truth is clear as day and I hope that one day, for the sake of Michael, that the truth prevails and people are held accountable for their actions.
 
Last edited:
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
As far as I am concerned, I've always supported this board and even the one that was before this one (I forgot the name, was it MJNI? or something like that?). I don't think this board should be questioned for the Cascio tracks as it has nothing to do with them. And it is a good thing we can discuss them here. So the 12 months spent on opinions about the tracks isn't necessarily a negative thing. On the contrary, it shows at what extent the Estate's choice of recognizing those tracks as Michael's was a bit hasty.

Even if we close this thread, those tracks won't remain unforgotten necessarily, especially if in the future they release the remaining tracks on MJ's official albums.
Can we really deny that the voice on those tracks is off compared to all MJ songs we've heard in the past decades? Mission impossible.
Click to expand...

My post does not refer to closing this thread thus it stays and has done for 12 months it also does not mention denying a voice, however it is my problem when it becomes a dictation of thought an impact on the tone of this forum.

All I ask is do what you do with respect, realise we have nothing to factually go on other than opinions and theories.

And please lets not let it be at the cost of MJJC which you rightly say we have no involvement in.
 
Gaz said:
My post does not refer to closing this thread thus it stays and has done for 12 months it also does not mention denying a voice, however it is my problem when it becomes a dictation of thought an impact on the tone of this forum.

All I ask is do what you do with respect, realise we have nothing to factually go on other then opinions and theories.

And please lets not let it be at the cost of MJJC which you rightly say we have no involvement in.
Click to expand...

Why are you afraid that this thread could be at the cost of MJJC. For many of us it has been the best thread ever, despite the controversy. It is also a thread where people got to know each other and met, despite some arguments. We're all humans after all, but as far as I know, I don't think anyone is aiming to cause damage to this board. Why would anyone do that?
 
StellaJackson said:
And that fault lay with the people who chose to put these songs on an album and created this mess. And clearly it is not just a theory put forward by fans as both the Estate/Sony were investigating Jason due to concerns raised behind the scenes before the public ever heard Breaking News. Unfortunately, while a simple "no" from Nauden may have satisfied them, it doesn't satisfy us. And that's all we have: a denial.
The Estate's statement isn't worth the paper it is printed on because while it mentions the people in the listening session who said it was Michael, it omits those who said it wasn't. The alleged forensic tests are irrelevant as we've never seen any results, specifics of the tests, what the margin of error was or anything else. For me, as a fan who has listened to Michael daily for 17 plus years now and having been listening to, and dare I say previously quite enjoying, the music of Jason Cupeta, I have no doubts as to the identity of the singer. We have no hard proof such as pictures, videos or worktapes of either Michael or Jason recording them (and if it was Jason why would we?), all we have is our experience as fans. With so many fans, and indeed non fans, not hearing Michael on these tracks, clearly there is a problem. For me, the comparisons which show identical vocal nuances to Jason including accent, pronounciation and the infamous vibrato to name but a few are indeed strong proof. They are certainly more proof than we have for Michael being the vocalist.

As a "doubter", this situation, and my beliefs, are not about one side being right over the other, nor is it about some imagined agenda against the Cascios, Jason or any other individual or group. It is about one person: Michael Jackson. I would love to be proven wrong. I want to be proven wrong. I don't want to think that Michael was stabbed in the back by the Cascio's, after being so close to them. I don't want to think that after so many years of tireless hard work and dedication to his craft that someone was able to put three fraudulent songs on an album (with a further 9 in the vault), thereby exploiting Michael and his fans. It is insulting beyond words. I would be over the moon to learn the songs are real. Headache over. It is only natural, as humans, for us to want to be right, but not with this. Not with Michael's music. Please don't let this be. But I can't deny want I hear. I hear 12 songs that have multiple takes of lead vocals performed by Jason Cupeta, supported with backing vocals by James Porte and cut together with numerous pasted ad libs from older records. And I see nothing of substance, nothing, to adequately refute that. The people responsible for these songs got paid and seemingly don't care anymore. It is the responsibility of the Estate to protect and respect Michael's legacy. While they have done a good job in most instances, they have failed miserably in this one, and their continued choice to ignore the concerns of a great many fans is only making a bad situation worse. The Michael album was a commercial disaster, despite it's strong potential as a concept and I am afraid that with or without Cascio tracks, future projects may suffer the same fate. The damage is done and as a fan who loves Michael, I am not prepared to sit by and let those who I feel were responsible for this fraud get away with it.

Those are my thoughts and feelings. I have no interest in continued debate. For me, the truth is clear as day and I hope that one day, for the sake of Michael, that the truth prevails and people are held accountable for their actions.
Click to expand...


this1.jpg
x 100000000
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Why are you afraid that this thread could be at the cost of MJJC. For many of us it has been the best thread ever, despite the controversy. It is also a thread where people got to know each other and met, despite some arguments. We're all humans after all, but as far as I know, I don't think anyone is aiming to cause damage to this board. Why would anyone do that?
Click to expand...
True, each of us has his own peculiarities, which I like and got used to. Although I agree that tone and respect are important, I also want to stress that maybe we shouldn't put salt on every snail. Literal translation of a Dutch proverb, which means that maybe we shouldn't put every word under the microscope and make a problem out of something that isn't worth making a problem of.

Keeping the convo going is most important.
 
Gaz said:
I think we all seem to missing one huge point here,

You have absolutely no evidence to support the fact you all think this is indeed Malachi singing,
Click to expand...

Logically this only begs the question of what constitutes "evidence" or a "proof". If we go by the standards of criminal or civil law in the U.S. then the doubters would need empirical evidence that proves that Malachi, not Jackson, sang on the tracks in question beyond the glimmer of a doubt. Fortunately "evidence" and "proof" as such are not reducible to to the strict requirements of criminal and civil laws; that is unless we all agree to discuss this subject under the general assumption that "evidence" and "proof" are defined only by prosecutorial definitions. Many attorneys specialize in assisting their clients in skirting the strict requirements of the law--of walking the line as they say--which is why it could be said that there is nothing absolute about the law; it is more about approximation. This absence of legal "evidence" notwithstanding the doubters have a far weightier argument, which explains the longevity of this thread. I think the doubters have far more evidence than do the believers because the definition of evidence assumed by the doubters is not exhausted by courts of law.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Why are you afraid that this thread could be at the cost of MJJC. For many of us it has been the best thread ever, despite the controversy. It is also a thread where people got to know each other and met, despite some arguments. We're all humans after all, but as far as I know, I don't think anyone is aiming to cause damage to this board. Why would anyone do that?
Click to expand...

Its not this thread that's the problem, those who are steadfast on their beliefs can not keep it to where that given topic is, instead they seek to derail and destroy any attempt throughout our pages in their quest to be heard. for instance the immortal album thread which does not even have cascio songs on it.

Thus some can not even hold a discussion, thus they think why do they bother thus they do not visit, this then becomes mine and my teams job to stop. which is why I am in here now.

Do you better understand my point now.

With all that said, we are not going to shut this thread or this forum.

Carry on enjoy as you were.
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
Why are you afraid that this thread could be at the cost of MJJC.
Click to expand...

Gaz can talk for himself but speaking for myself and other moderators that I discussed this issue with I can say
- we don't like the amount of disrespect on this thread
- we are concerned about the amount of hate as well
- we don't like fans acting like their fellow fan friends are the ones responsible about this issue, like they did it, like they are the enemy.
- we don't like any group being belittled due to their opinions - such as questioning their fandom, knowledge and stuff.
- we don't like how people act out towards moderators. we believe everyone should realize that this is a discussion board that posts get reported and will be moderated - and it has nothing to do with your opinion about these songs. We - as staff- is actually a lot careful about this topic and I do NOT moderate any Cascio related discussion. so if a post is deleted on such threads it's done by a moderator who thinks the songs aren't Michael. So any acting outs, tantrums, and whatever you call it is unnecessary.
- and then there's also the issue of the stolen songs.

when we did the survey one reason people gave as why not they aren't coming as much and not posting as much was this negativity, this mood I just described it above. So although we have no intention to close this thread , we aren't really happy about what this thread brings either. And we believe it hurts us all. This argument, fights, attacks etc aren't good for us personally and isn't good for MJJC either.

The only reason I came to this thread because I liked the intelligent, respectful and calm discussions we had. Currently I feel like it's all lost. and that's my two cents.
 
I've heard enough comparisons to conclude that in my opinion, Jason Malachi is all over these tracks. I haven't heard/seen one single thing that would sway me to believe they are not lying and Michael did indeed record these tracks.
 
Yukon Jack said:
Logically this only begs the question of what constitutes "evidence" or a "proof". If we go by the standards of criminal or civil law in the U.S. then the doubters would need empirical evidence that proves that Malachi, not Jackson, sang on the tracks in question beyond the glimmer of a doubt. Fortunately "evidence" and "proof" as such are not reducible to to the strict requirements of criminal and civil laws; that is unless we all agree to discuss this subject under the general assumption that "evidence" and "proof" are defined only by prosecutorial definitions. Many attorneys specialize in assisting their clients in skirting the strict requirements of the law--of walking the line as they say--which is why it could be said that there is nothing absolute about the law; it is more about approximation. This absence of legal "evidence" notwithstanding the doubters have a far weightier argument, which explains the longevity of this thread. I think the doubters have far more evidence than do the believers because the definition of evidence assumed by the doubters is not exhausted by courts of law.
Click to expand...

Only one problem, this is my fan club and forum, not the court of U.S. law.
 
ivy said:
Gaz can talk for himself but speaking for myself and other moderators that I discussed this issue with I can say
- we don't like the amount of disrespect on this thread
- we are concerned about the amount of hate as well
- we don't like fans acting like their fellow fan friends are the ones responsible about this issue, like they did it, like they are the enemy.
- we don't like any group being belittled due to their opinions - such as questioning their fandom, knowledge and stuff.
- we don't like how people act out towards moderators. we believe everyone should realize that this is a discussion board that posts get reported and will be moderated - and it has nothing to do with your opinion about these songs. We - as staff- is actually a lot careful about this topic and I do NOT moderate any Cascio related discussion. so if a post is deleted on such threads it's done by a moderator who thinks the songs aren't Michael. So any acting outs, tantrums, and whatever you call it is unnecessary.
- and then there's also the issue of the stolen songs.

when we did the survey one reason people gave as why not they aren't coming as much and not posting as much was this negativity, this mood I just described it above. So although we have no intention to close this thread , we aren't really happy about what this thread brings either. And we believe it hurts us all. This argument, fights, attacks etc aren't good for us personally and isn't good for MJJC either.

The only reason I came to this thread because I liked the intelligent, respectful and calm discussions we had. Currently I feel like it's all lost. and that's my two cents.
Click to expand...

Amen to that. perfect post.
 
ivy said:
Gaz can talk for himself but speaking for myself and other moderators that I discussed this issue with I can say
- we don't like the amount of disrespect on this thread
- we are concerned about the amount of hate as well
- we don't like fans acting like their fellow fan friends are the ones responsible about this issue, like they did it, like they are the enemy.
- we don't like any group being belittled due to their opinions - such as questioning their fandom, knowledge and stuff.
- we don't like how people act out towards moderators. we believe everyone should realize that this is a discussion board that posts get reported and will be moderated - and it has nothing to do with your opinion about these songs. We - as staff- is actually a lot careful about this topic and I do NOT moderate any Cascio related discussion. so if a post is deleted on such threads it's done by a moderator who thinks the songs aren't Michael. So any acting outs, tantrums, and whatever you call it is unnecessary.
- and then there's also the issue of the stolen songs.

when we did the survey one reason people gave as why not they aren't coming as much and not posting as much was this negativity, this mood I just described it above. So although we have no intention to close this thread , we aren't really happy about what this thread brings either. And we believe it hurts us all. This argument, fights, attacks etc aren't good for us personally and isn't good for MJJC either.

The only reason I came to this thread because I liked the intelligent, respectful and calm discussions we had. Currently I feel like it's all lost. and that's my two cents.
Click to expand...

Well I think everyone speaks for themselves, and no one likes to be offended.

As far as intelligent discussions are concerned, how do you expect from people to have one if so little credit is given to the people who work in different areas such as music industry, and other domains allowing them to doubt the authenticity of the tracks despite the official version full of serious gaps which you seemingly defend.
 
ADKIc3mAnX said:
For me #1 is more similar.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your answer. Even I don't share your opinion, I recognize your position is clear and coherent with what you hear.

I noticed that the doubters and believers generally have a different approach. The first have a strong opinion based on what they hear, whereas the last have a more theoretical approach.

I would really like to see more answers to that question. Ivy, Korgnex,... you shared your opinion and reasonings, but I don't know about your feelings regarding these comparisons. Would you tell us, like ADKIc3mAnX, which comparison is the more relevant for you?

Thanks

mjmax said:
[...] She asked whether the voices are more similar in comparison 1 or comparison 2.

comparison 1
>>> http://www.box.com/s/3n6t8v0lejsu307r8i4i

comparison 2
>>> http://www.box.com/s/x5ptznfnfhxte6b198b7

Forget who are the singers.. just assume you don't know about Michael Jackson and Jason Malachi. When you hear each comparison, which one shows more similar voices? 1 or 2?

If we want to move the discussion forward, we should first try to find a common basis on which both the believers and doubters can agree. I think this question was a good starting point.
Click to expand...
 
BUMPER SNIPPET said:
As far as intelligent discussions are concerned, how do you expect from people to have one if so little credit is given to the people who work in different areas such as music industry, and other domains allowing them to doubt the authenticity of the tracks despite the official version full of serious gaps which you seemingly defend.
Click to expand...

and did you need to add that personal comment there? It's apparent that I wrote that long post for nothing. Why can't we discuss the issue and leave the person out?
 
ivy said:
and did you need to add that personal comment there? It's apparent that I wrote that long post for nothing. Why can't we discuss the issue and leave the person out?
Click to expand...

What's wrong now? I said that I agreed that we all speak in our names and that no one likes being offended. What's wrong with my post now? Aren't you being sensitive? You misunderstood me. This was in response to your lost intelligent discussions.

When we discussed and when I told you that the Cascio singer has the same voice timbre and phonetical and linguistical characteristics as Jason and not as michael, you completely seem to ignore it.

For example if I tell you that in British English the word "city" is pronounced [siti] and that in American English it is pronounced [sidi], and you deny it, there's no intelligent discussion any more.

Likewise when I pointed out Jason's characteristics based on phonology, you seem to deny it. Now, how can we have an intelligent discussion?

When people like Grent show you things black on white that some things cannot be done as what you seem to stand for, how can we have an intelligent discussion?

When we tell you listen to the tracks to hear the voice, you (in any case publicly) refuse to listen to them, yet are telling us that we are being subjective. The subjectivity has to stop somewhere though. If in British we say [siti] and in American [sidi] it's a fact, not something what we think we hear. The same goes for those Cascio tracks. They sound more Jason than Michael based on many, many details provided in this long thread.
 
ivy said:
yes bumper you are absolutely right , you win.
Click to expand...

Win what???? Now you're being sarcastic. Well, I'd better shut my mouth.

Edited to add:

All I am asking is to be proven wrong based on the same arguments I put forward:
pronunciation, snorts, timbre, accent, etc.

But you give impression that you don't like to be proven wrong, hence I don't see why such a sarcastic post.
 
Last edited:
How come there's such a difference between listening to leaks of sound engineers, executives ... and those stolen by a hacker?
In both ways the rights of the music were mistreated.

Or: there are certain beloved users that collect money to buy unreleased tracks. And I'm not entirely sure if those users can be assured, that such a buy, such a deal is legal ? That the seller has the right to sell and the buyer has the right to spread?

Or haven't you ever listened to any leak at all? Monkey Business (in the past), Escape, Hold My Hand and such?
 
We all know how how MJ's soundalikes sound. But I just wonder how would sound a soundalike who would attempt to sound like the Cascio tracks singer.
 
Bumper wrote a great post.

There are many details that we only found in the Jason voice that are included on the Cascios tracks.

I trully believe none could doubt it is Jason voice after heard tons and tons of comparisions created by many fans all over the entire world.

Comparisions of how he say words like "Maikol", etc....

Comparisons of vibrattos, Yelps, Snorts

Comparisons of melodyes...

Comparisons of estructures of songs...

Same use of spanglish on the songs...

If you take all those evidences and what we read from Taryll, Randy J, Jermaine, La Toya, Jackie, Producer of Jason songs and the amount of erased videos/audio compatisons all over the net to avoid many heard them and realized it is JM....

If we read the name of Jason on the lawyer statement....

What will you believe? What will the Mj fans believe?.

Where is Jason?, where is his new album?, where is Bobby Ewing and the album he created with Frank and Eddie Cascio with the working tittle "Slideshow?.

¿Where?...
 
ivy said:
Grent - the difference is legal action involved.
Click to expand...
Did you know about that from the very first day of the leak and hence decided not to listen to the stolen tracks?

Maybe MJ sued somebody over the Hold My Hand leak, as I'm sure, contracts were signed.
 
Grent - Did MJ sue fans due to the leaks? Was MJ sending cease and desists all around?

and it seems some people can't read between the lines.
 
ivy said:
Grent - Did MJ sue fans due to the leaks? Was MJ sending cease and desists all around?

and it seems some people can't read between the lines.
Click to expand...

Ivy, you are again referring to our conversation we had earlier. Reading between the lines = ambiguity and assumptions. And every time someone says something when based on reading between the lines, it is so easy to accuse him/her of making assumptions.
 
I wonder why some persons avoid to talk about the voice. Is it not the first point on which we should discuss before elaborate any theory?
Apparently some prefer to write long posts and criticize others' attitude.. but don't even take the time to answer very simple questions..
 
some of us discussed the voice over the last 12 months all over this 1364 page thread and aren't motivated to say the same things again and again. perhaps try the search function ?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top