love is magical
Proud Member
^^ Ivy, I'm gonna hide your hat one of these days lol
BTW, is it a fedora?
naughty girl.... ahem... mike, you can leave your hat on.. :naughty: :heat:
^^ Ivy, I'm gonna hide your hat one of these days lol
BTW, is it a fedora?
naughty girl.... ahem... mike, you can leave your hat on.. :naughty: :heat:
My point is that the suspicion was introduced - I'm not saying it shaped your opinion. I personally admit that I knew RF's stories and listened to the song as is it or isn't it Michael? Did you? I'm not saying you or anyone is brainwashed or simply repeating what Jacksons said. My whole argument is could the songs have been received differently if such suspicion wasn't introduced.
FYI you didn't agree with Joe Jackson's claims about body double but do you know that there are people that believe / think that there was body doubles in TII, in TII announcement?
and that's my point actually. When I looked to the soldier boy example I saw that Cascio songs are received more positively when people didn't have the outside effect. It dramatically changed when it became a public thing. and if the evaluations was indeed objective I would have expected to see "nice good catchy song but still doesn't sound like Michael" for example. and I'm curious about how much of "you don't like it" is that you don't like it because it's really a bad song or you don't like it because it's a Cascio song?
You know what . I wish that we had a Cascio song that no one knew that it was a Cascio song and it leaked. I wonder what the reactions would be? That would have been one hell of an experiment.
take your time. I have check the lawsuits to see if there are any developments
Are you in law school now? :scratch:
nah I was just talking about the lawsuits that the estate is a party. I check them to see if there are any new filings etc. that's all.
as for the rest like I said it was just a realization that came to me this morning after seeing some posts at Max Jax. I wasn't trying to generalize it to everyone. I wrote it before I believe Pentum's knowledge in regards to Malachi. I'll take any one of you's word about how you formed your opinion. However it was also obvious that there were some people that had no idea about Malachi and was convinced that it was Malachi due to posts and comparisons. and it made me wonder if this event, the reactions would be different if we didn't have such outside factors , that's all.
It would be instantly realized that it's the Cascio vocalist, I think.I agree. It would be a good experiment.
True, all of us take the opinions of others into account at varying degrees, whether we do it consciously or not. It's just human nature. I am reminded of this when I see that there are surprisingly many people who feel that Michael is not singing on Hollywood Tonight, or, in some extreme cases, any song on the ´Michael´ album.ivy;3407793 said:nah I was just talking about the lawsuits that the estate is a party. I check them to see if there are any new filings etc. that's all.
as for the rest like I said it was just a realization that came to me this morning after seeing some posts at Max Jax. I wasn't trying to generalize it to everyone. I wrote it before I believe Pentum's knowledge in regards to Malachi. I'll take any one of you's word about how you formed your opinion. However it was also obvious that there were some people that had no idea about Malachi and was convinced that it was Malachi due to posts and comparisons. and it made me wonder if this event, the reactions would be different if we didn't have such outside factors , that's all.
MindCompass;3407944 said:True, all of us take the opinions of others into account at varying degrees, whether we do it consciously or not. It's just human nature. I am reminded of this when I see that there are surprisingly many people who feel that Michael is not singing on Hollywood Tonight, or, in some extreme cases, any song on the ´Michael´ album.
I'm sure that some people heavily relied on what others had to say about Jason Malachi when they formed their opinion, or on the family's statements before Breaking News was streamed. But personally I was most surprised by the apparent persuasiveness of the Estate's statement. Many people who doubted that it was Michael before changed their opinion based on this statement, which I honestly feel was quite weak in the sense that it presented no real evidence. Although it did not come as a surprise, it was interesting to see how many people now appeared to hear MJ on the tracks. I could not help but think of the literature on authority in the context of social influence..
MindCompass;3407944 said:True, all of us take the opinions of others into account at varying degrees, whether we do it consciously or not. It's just human nature. I am reminded of this when I see that there are surprisingly many people who feel that Michael is not singing on Hollywood Tonight, or, in some extreme cases, any song on the ´Michael´ album.
I'm sure that some people heavily relied on what others had to say about Jason Malachi when they formed their opinion, or on the family's statements before Breaking News was streamed. But personally I was most surprised by the apparent persuasiveness of the Estate's statement. Many people who doubted that it was Michael before changed their opinion based on this statement, which I honestly feel was quite weak in the sense that it presented no real evidence. Although it did not come as a surprise, it was interesting to see how many people now appeared to hear MJ on the tracks. I could not help but think of the literature on authority in the context of social influence..
BUMPER SNIPPET;3407947 said:The last part of this post indicates that Ivy's argument of Pavlov's dog could not be used only against doubters, but also against believers.
The Estate's report without any detail regarding the analysis appears and all of sudden people hear MJ. I mean, even without that report, the sole fact that SONY labeled it as an MJ album equals to Pavlov's dog and introduce the idea as the fact that they MUST hear MJ on those tracks, since it's official.
Ok, I see what you're saying...I saw those posts too...I understand
Get your mind out of the legal gutter, Ivy lol
For the record, I never thought the comparisons would hold up in a court of law
@Ivy
You suggested to hear a new track without mentioning it as the Cascio one in order to see people's reaction.
How about releasing an unheard track of JM and label it as a Cascio MJ track in order to see people's reaction?
"cascio tracks" already have an attached negative meaning to them so it won't be received positively. and my point was that nothing that comes as "cascio track" is evaluated anymore.
so we'll need a "cascio track" without any information about it to see if it is perceived more positively and even legit
or a legit MJ track being introduced as a Cascio track to see if it will be received negatively and fake
however I don't think it's possible anymore as the song names are already known
"cascio tracks" already have an attached negative meaning to them so it won't be received positively. and my point was that nothing that comes as "cascio track" is evaluated anymore.
let me add this to be clear
I was talking about giving people "an alleged fake as a legit song" or "a legit song as an alleged fake" and to see if they can correctly identify the song as legit /fake regardless of how they were presented.
bumper's example is giving a fake as an alleged fake which would result in a fake
It is probably true that comparison clips would not hold in court. But I do wonder, if these clips were to be analysed by vocal experts or forensic musicologists, thus, generating that of an "expert opinion" from these comparisons, can they (or the expert opinions) be credible in that sense?
Kapital77;3408107 said:Why you, Ivy, Pompous, Korgnex, never supported any of the theories from Bumper/Pentum and the rest of the fans who thinks it´s not MJ?.
Why?.
Please, i don´t want to say more and i will return to not say more about this matter, but please, please, what the hell it´s happening here?.
an edited version is being compared. the regular version which only had one effect and totally Michael's own doing/change doesn't sound "similar" to vast majority of Michael's other songs.
I hope my point about 2000 watts is clear. Although it doesn't sound like most of michael jackson songs , although it can't be normally compared to Michael Jackson songs it doesn't mean that it's not Michael.
why would we pitch them? the issue would be if we knew to undo any processing that has been done but we don't have that information.
I didn't ask for an opinion or a result just based on ears. the report that you post said they "listened" to the song. I need more than that to classify something as objective. I need a forensic musicologist to run some test based on predetermined methods. I need an expert producer to tell me what can be and can't be done.
Well, you can say that. But you know very well that that argument could be used both ways. I already gace some examples.can I say Pavlov's dogs?
again I totally believe that you might have independent opinion. I believe in Pentum's knowledge in regards to Malachi. I'm simply saying that not everyone had that independent process.
let me give you an example. in the academia for example when we survey people we make sure that we do not have "leading" questions. for example you ask "what is the best car in the market?" and you don't ask "do you agree that porche is the best car in the market?". In the first question while it's open ended and the person may or might not say porche, in the second question the researcher not only reminds them of porche but presents the person with the idea that Porche is a good car.
now let me tell you another thing. 2+ months ago when I talked with Birchey before any leaks etc he had told me that soldier boy was his favorite and how he loved the song and how he couldn't believe it didn't make the cut to be released. I talked with 2 other people that had nothing but good things to say about soldier boy. These people were the few that listened to the song without any effect of anyone and had formed an independent opinion.
Then the song leaked and the it was immediately classified as a terrible song in many aspects. Why was this difference? Andt it got me to thinking. At this moment 1) are people really evaluating the songs anymore? 2) are their opinions even independent? or 3)anything that comes with "Cascio" name attached automatically seen as "terrible" and "fake"?
that's a separate thing IMO like I said before. fraud / fake vocals is one thing. over processed to the point of not sounding like him is another.
a little
question to bumper and his wife. did you hear Roger Friedman stories about the controversy about the songs? see the previous discussion on the forum etc before breaking news streamed? or nothing at all.
Kapital77;3408107 said:Why you, Ivy, Pompous, Korgnex, never supported any of the theories from Bumper/Pentum and the rest of the fans who thinks it´s not MJ?.
Why?.
Please, i don´t want to say more and i will return to not say more about this matter, but please, please, what the hell it´s happening here?.
ivy;3408128 said:It's called difference of opinions. As it can be seen obviously we mainly agree about legal, technical etc facts. For example when I say a forensic musicologist report is based on predetermined methods and therefore objective they agree. When Bumper points out no test is perfect and that there could be mistakes I agree.
The rest basically comes to what we hear or not. that's something that none of us agree with the other one and each argument is presented by a counter argument.
Let me tell you that in Belgium they would ask you Roger who? We don't have a clue how Roger Friedman (un)reliable is, and above all, who he is.
So, no I didn't show any particular interest in what Roger Friedman reported. I was browsing all the available news on the forthcoming album, and was quite active only in that forum. But, at that time I attracted many enemies, as basically I was posting ironic posts while people were litterally biting and eating their nails and demanding to hang SmoothCriminal because of his reports from his inside sources (his uncle at SONY). Love is Magical can confirm this, she was stalking me. First because she hated me for my posts, after because she laughed as she understood that I was purely being sarcastic without any negative agenda. And that was it.
When Breaking News was streamed, I was supposed to be happy but then not. So I came back to the forum to share my unfortunately negative impression about the song regarding the vocals.
As far as my wife is concerned, she likes MJ, but she's not a fan like me. However, in our 12 years of common life and my daily listening to MJ, she quite knows his voice, as she also has a musical ear (she can read music, sing and play the piano).
As I don't want to bother her with the controversy I come to the forum to speak about it with people who are interested in following this kind of conversation like you and me.
She still doesn't know who Malachi or the Cascios are and has never heard of them. But when I happen to play a song of Malachi in order to put side aside with a Cascio snippet, she claims to hear the same voice. But certainly not Michael's.
Out of curiosity I just played her the snippet with Barry Gibb without saying or asking anything else but simply to listen to it. When she heard MJ's part she immediately without slightest doubt said "it is MJ, is it a new song?"
My question remains, how come that when we hear a MJ song there is never a doubt?
@Ivy,
I think what Kapital meant is why, instead of uniting our forces and knowledge against those who split the community we are wasting our energy on counter-arguing without results.
Omg... I thought you forgot how we started. :lmao:
At first, I hated Bumper and thought he's just a trouble-maker who's sole purpose was to rain in people's parade. I think I may have exchanged a few heated posts with him... Lol... :cheeky:
Back in the new album thread, most of us were like children waiting for Christmas presents. We worshiped SC 05, cheered when he gave us updates, and trashed him when his info turned false. The new album thread, at times, was even more heated than this thread.... For people who think they cannot deal wih the heat here, may I say "you ain't see nothing yet." Gee... the good old days....
Bumper posted sometimes, but not as active as he is now. Mostly, he just made fun of people like me. He kept distance and didn't believe anything from SC 05. I highly doubt he was aware of the 3T tweets prior to breaking news.