Michael - The Great Album Debate

Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The wrong mix!!! Just lol. You don't really believe that?
Azsummergirl i remember that post. I think it might have been pentum. The so called correct mix sounded exactly the same to me too.

lol, it's always pentum. thank god for pentum, where would we be without you? pentum, if you're here and you still have that, you want to post it again?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Add 'wrong mix' to the list of excuses...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

see we are again going in circles

Now tell me, if the Estate and SONY music were such specialists and really sure that those tracks are sung by Michael, why did they bother to analyse those tracks at all? To cover their ass? From what? From genuine Michael Jackson's vocals? I mean if you are sure 100% that it IS Michael, why do you analyse the tracks? What is the reason if you are so sure?
see/remember : Due diligence

Due diligence concept says that you are REQUIRED to do EVERYTHING that is reasonable to do in such issues.

You cannot say " I'm absolutely sure I hear Micheal and I can bet my kids life on it" - beliefs, convictions, feelings aren't enough. A concern / a fraud possibility was raised by the Jacksons. And once the concerns were raised they were REQUIRED to investigate it - that's legit business practice.

Reading below

The term due diligence describes a general duty to exercise care in any transaction.

There are many reasons for conducting due diligence, including the following:

Confirmation that the business is what it appears to be;
Identify potential "deal killer" defects in the target and avoid a bad business transaction;
Gain information that will be useful for valuing assets, defining representations and warranties, and/or negotiating price concessions; and
Verification that the transaction complies with investment or acquisition criteria.

Who Conducts Due Diligence?

Lead and co-investors, corporate development staff, attorneys, accountants, investment bankers, loan officers and other professionals involved in a transaction may have a need or an obligation to conduct independent due diligence.

I am sorry, I don't buy that "due diligence" excuse. You know why? Because they released the tracks!

Now, from the moment you do due dilligence, it means you need to cover you back. So, the question still remeains, why releasing them? They could have done due diligence and whatever is related to it without releasing the tracks. Just keep them untill they can prove it to the public. But no, they prefered cashing in solely under the excuse that they did their legal procedures and that's it.

And again you defend their politics depsite the facts. The facts are: "DOUBTS"
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

to me, streaming the wrong mix is really an excuse. sony made a stupid decision to launch the new album with breaking news. the overall reaction is extremely negative. i'm not exaggerating if i say over 95% of the members here were totally disgusted by it. the public trashed it and thought it's not up to the michael jackson standard.

what could sony do? sony called teddy up and asked him to "clean up" the track the best he could; hence the slight difference.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Call it going around in circles or whatever you like ivy but tbe fact is that this is never going to stop until we get the truth. You always resort to the legal jargon when all else fails. Frankly i don't give a damn about this 'due diligence' .... All that means is that they have ass covered enough to get away with this fraud. Doesn't mean that michael jackson sang those tracks.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's prett obvious the Estate wants us to go around in circles since they haven't addressed this whole thing any further besides the Oprah show.

They say they have the fans in mind, doesn't seem that way though.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Add 'wrong mix' to the list of excuses...

It's just amazing to see some fans clambering over themselves in order to support the Estate/Sony. Just amazing.

Wrong mix? Pathetic! Absolutely pathetic!
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

It's just amazing to see some fans clambering over themselves in order to support the Estate/Sony. Just amazing.

Wrong mix? Pathetic! Absolutely pathetic!

Yeah, I was wondering when that one was gonna come up again....Almost forgot about it....!

Wrong mix....Bullshit...What kind of record company makes that type of mistake?

Something else I find quite interesting. The little snippet we heard of BN cut off after Michael's REAL ad libbed scream...Right before we hear that bullshit voice.....Making us believe that we were going to hear the real deal....Very obvious that was quite deliberate...If that's not a slap in the face to the fans, I don't know what is....
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

The little snippet we heard of BN cut off after Michael's REAL ad libbed scream...Right before we hear that bullshit voice.....Making us believe that we were going to hear the real deal....

I always wondered about that. During the teaser you hear an "Ow" which sounds lik it's taken from the 80's, in my opinion of course.

That's why they didn't let us hear any of ther verses until the song was to premiere. The contreversey surrounding vocals would've started early and none of us fans would've tuned in for the song in full the following week.

Very smart Sony.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

You always resort to the legal jargon when all else fails.

for your information due diligence isn't a legal concept. It's a business practice that's especially predominantly used in contracts / business transactions.

I am sorry, I don't buy that "due diligence" excuse. You know why? Because they released the tracks!

and why wouldn't they release them if they found out them to be legit?

example: someone says that you are intentionally posting on this thread to start arguments (you are a plant). I investigate it to my best ability and I find it not to be true. what will I do? Let you post freely because I couldn't find any evidence? or ban you from posting because a doubt about you was raised?

Now, from the moment you do due dilligence, it means you need to cover you back

Not correct. See the first part. For example in mergers/ acquisitions there are predetermined steps of due diligence. It's common business practice used in many type of transactions.

I said an investigation is especially more needed if there are some concerns.

For example : Cars are being sold with safety tests done - this is initial due diligence. If you see cars having accidents due to a common issue you need to do additional investigation - this is due diligence due to concerns.

Similarly I'm sure sony/estate isn't buying songs from anyone that walks from the street and says "I have a MJ song". MJ's relationship with Cascio's was already known and he also recorded vocals for Thriller 25 with them - those could have satisfied initial due diligence. After vocals doubts were introduced they could have done additional investigation. It's just normal.

Plus due diligence doesn't protect you from being sued. Regardless of any investigation done they can be sued. Due diligence just could be a defense point to demonstrate good faith and argue against intentional malice.

The facts are: "DOUBTS"

yes and your point being? cigarettes cause cancer yet they are being sold with a warning. Vocals debate and what has been done/ not done is public knowledge. Simply don't buy it if you don't like it.

ps: honestly I do not know how to explain due diligence better if it's not understood after all this.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Bangs head off wall...
For you information it means sweet f all to me whether it's a legal or business concept. So what? My point is still the same. Could you be any more condescending!
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I always wondered about that. During the teaser you hear an "Ow" which sounds lik it's taken from the 80's, in my opinion of course.

That's why they didn't let us hear any of ther verses until the song was to premiere. The contreversey surrounding vocals would've started early and none of us fans would've tuned in for the song in full the following week.

Very smart Sony.
Indeed, it was very very disappointing.

Hearing the clip of some new Michael Jackson music, when the initial teaser was released, I was beaming from head to toe, sooo excited!

But when the voice came in, my face dropped...

Of course, I'd heard some of the comments that family had made. I remember I listened to the premiere the second it came on, though, and I wasn't very impressed.

I was instantly reminded of Let Me Let Go.

Very odd... I will always remember those as my initial thoughts listening to the song. Seems like a lot of people here felt the exact same way. :(
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

But when the voice came in, my face dropped...

I was instantly reminded of Let Me Let Go.

I wonder why that is.....?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I felt sick when i heard it. I was like 'who the hell is that?' i thought to myself 'this has to be some sort of joke/publicity stunt'
I think i was in shock for a while, just couldn't believe it.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I thought the production was very similar to Let Me Let Go, the way the vocals were layered on the chorus and almost sound lost in the background?, not up front and strong like usual, if you know what I mean.

It seemed to be almost identical in production to Let Me Let Go, but obviously a little better because Teddy Riley produced it.

However, Michael often used a lot of layers on his vocals. Heaven Can Wait, Threatened, etc...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Bangs head off wall...
For you information it means sweet f all to me whether it's a legal or business concept. So what? My point is still the same. Could you be any more condescending!

In case you didn't notice I haven't argued against your point , I gave you a basic information , a definition. and you say that's condescending? sensitive much? you don't see me cry about your cursing do you?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I thought the production was very similar to Let Me Let Go, the way the vocals were layered on the chorus and almost sound lost in the background?, not up front and strong like usual, if you know what I mean.

It seemed to be almost identical in production to Let Me Let Go, but obviously a little better because Teddy Riley produced it.

So, your initial instinct was?? What did your ears hear first? Michael Jackson? Or someone completely different?

If you're having doubts now....Remember what you felt like...
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

First of all i'm not crying! Why would you cry about me cursing?
When i said you were condescending i wasn't referring to how were to me specifically. Telling people they can't 'grasp' the meaning of your business/ legal jargon.
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Complete and utter bullshit. It was the exact same bullshit vocals that are on this bogus CD. They're the exact same vocals. 'The wrong mix'!!! Who do you think you're fooling? Multimillion dollar companies don't make mistake after mistake after mistake by accident. 'The wrong mix'! Pathetic!

'I find it awfully bias...'? Of course you do.

Now why does Monster sound 'off' to you?

I've answered your question numerous times, you can't accept the answer. Get over it.

It doesn't matter if you nor anyone else believes the claim, fact is, that's what they said, fact is, the album version is different from the initial stream. Fact is, many people felt the acapella of the song sounded different from the initial stream, until it was corrected. Believe it or not, that was their claim, not mines, the fact that the album version is different from the initial stream, leads me to believe they were telling the truth. You don't agree, fine, but don't attempt to berate me or my opinion, because it conflicts with yours.
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

I must have missed that annie... Can you remind me please remind me?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Remind you for what? So you can say "Oh noezz! That's so pathetic! It's illogical! Just another excuse!!!"...No thanks, I'll save myself from the childish disputes.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Hmm, I guess I wasn't sure who I was hearing. No, it didn't sound like the Michael Jackson I knew.

No, it didn't sound like Michael from This Is It, either...

It sounded very strange to me.

It sounded like Let Me Let Go but a much better song. The production on the vocals on the chorus really struck me as similar, though.

I don't really know if that's relevant or not...

I can't really make a clear decision, right now, on the entire thing.

To me, the vibrato sounds really robotic, but that could be deliberate to make it sound processed or it could be because of volume leveling, etc. No one seems to really know what went on during this entire thing, and that really unsettles me.

I really hope the fans get heard and this vocal issue is put to rest. I am very uncomfortable listening to the album as a whole because of this controversy, and I don't like that...

Whenever I listen to the Cascio tracks I feel like I have to pay attention to the damn fucked up vocals and it's hard to really enjoy the music. Bad job, Sony... :(
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Can you share what qualifies those facts as facts annie?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

First of all i'm not crying! Why would you cry about me cursing?
When i said you were condescending i wasn't referring to how were to me specifically. Telling people they can't 'grasp' the meaning of your business/ legal jargon.

I said that as we discussed the same concept over and over again and once before we had issues with explaining / understanding what it means. however I'll edit my post if you were offended by something that I wrote to another person. ps: you'll achieve more if you respectfully point out something rather than using cursing.


Remind you for what? So you can say "Oh noezz! That's so pathetic! It's illogical! Just another excuse!!!"...No thanks, I'll save myself from the childish disputes.

you forgot "utter nonsense /bullshit" , that's my favorite :p I enjoy such "respectful" approaches to opposite opinions.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Can you share what qualifies those facts as facts annie?

Fact #1: Sony/The Estate admitted to the initial stream being the wrong mix, and they would fix the problem. Again, their claim, not mines.

Fact #2: The album version is different from the initial stream, as admitted by some of your fellow doubters on the last page. They don't hear the vocal difference, I do. That's fine, their opinion, I won't attempt to change that.

Fact #3: Many people heard the acapella of the song, and were convinced it was Michael, again that was confirmed by some of your fellow doubters in previous pages of this thread, to quote a couple, "I can't believe people actually believe this is Michael, after hearing this". Also, "Believe it or not, the acapella is what convinced many people that it's Michael on these songs."


Anything else?
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

and why wouldn't they release them if they found out to be legit?

Legit? You provide no proof and that's legit for you?

How do we actually know if the audiologists were fooled? What if they were fooled? You know what would happen in that case? NOTHING! Because they did everything they could, yet they were deceived. The tracks would remain legit untill someone brings the contrary proof. But how can one bring such a proof? There are no traces whatsoever!

Let's not mix up the term legit and genuine.



example: someone says that you are intentionally posting on this thread to start arguments. I investigate it to my best ability and I find it not to be true. what will I do? Let you post freely because I couldn't find any evidence? or ban you from posting because a doubt about you was raised?

Do not compare things that have nothing to do in common. Do you have a huge number of people telling you so? If yes, then my place is not here anymore. If a petition is raised against my comments I would most certainly take into account those complaints and despite the fact that it is not true, I would better retract from the thread and wait the appropriate moment to come back.


Not correct. See the first part. For example in mergers/ acquisitions there are predetermined steps of due diligence. It's common business practice used in many type of transactions.

And the point is? Do the Cascio tracks sound any different? No. Is there still a doubt? Yes.

For example : Cars are being sold with safety tests done - this is initial due diligence. If you see cars having accidents due to a common issue you need to do additional investigation - this is due diligence due to concerns.

Are the cars any safer? Yes, but NOT NECESSARILY. Many cars are called back to the factories because of many malfunctions. Last example TOYOTA and LEXUS. Some people even died because of brakes problems.
Was there a due diligence beforehand? Yes. Were the cars tested beforehand? Yes. Were the cars legit? Yes. Did that prevent accidents or loss of life? NO!

Similarly I'm sure sony/estate isn't buying songs from anyone that walks from the street and says I have a MJ song. MJ's relationship with Cascio's was already known and he also recorded vocals for Thriller 25 with them - those could have satisfied initial due diligence. After vocals doubts were introduced they could have done additional investigation.

The thing is, the doubts are on all Cascio tracks! Not only one. But all of them. It simply does not sound Michael. We can rehash comments over and over again. They can believe whoever they want, but they certainly do not seem to take into account a huge number of MJ's fans who are sure 1000000% that it is not Michael. You can fool a few people, but not thousands, whatever and whoever is behind this massive scam!

Plus due diligence doesn't protect you from being sued. Regardless of any investigation done they can be sued. Due diligence just could be a defense strategy to demonstrate good faith and argue against intentional malice.

Of course that they can be sued, but not found guilty. Let's not play with words.



yes and your point being? cigarettes cause cancer yet they are being sold with a warning. Vocals debate and what has been done/ not done is public knowledge. Simply don't buy it if you don't like it.

My point being that despite all the legal procedures, they did not manage to change what we hear: a voice that does not belong to MICHAEL. Those are facts because they do not have a single tangible proof. Not one! Nada! Zip! Zero! A waveform analysis is not a proof. It is what it is, an analysis that can fool even the most experienced audiologists (who probably happen not to be Michael's fans). They can be wrong, just as doctors can be wrong, such as Murray in his drugs administration despite the fact that he was portrayed as an excellent cardiologist.

ps: I don't think you were able to grasp what due diligence is. and honestly I do not know how to explain it better.

It has nothing to do with my understanding of due diligence. I know what it is. i know that companies use it. Investors use it. I just don't buy the excuse of it. It is not because you make something legit that it necessarily gives you the right to sell it like that.

The example with cigarette was a bad example. Untill recently we didn't know that cigarettes were harmful. As cancer is something that you don't catch in one day, we only recently realized how bad cigarettes are. Hence, they progressively are banning cigarettes, starting by anti-publicity, banning smoking in public places, restaurants, etc. Until they completely forbid it. it will happen.
 
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Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Excuses ARE 'utter nonsense/bullshit'....
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Legit? You provid no proof and that's legit for you?

this is not an issue of what WE know. this is an issue of what they know.

How do we actually know if the audiologists were fooled? What if they were fooled? You know what would happen in that case? NOTHING! Because they did everything they could, yet they were deceived.

Sure. but isn't that reality of life? Is everything perfect - no? Is errors possible - yes? Like your car example below - they try to do everything make sure the cars are safe but yet negative things can happen.

Are the cars any safer? Yes, but NOT NECESSARILY. Many cars are called back to the factories because of many malfunctions. Last example TOYOTA and LEXUS. Some people even died because of brakes problems.
Was there a due diligence beforehand? Yes. Were the cars tested beforehand? Yes. Were the cars legit? Yes. Did that prevent accidents or loss of life? NO!

this is actually perfect for the point I'm trying to make. but we still have cars on the streets right? and they are still being sold? so you have "doubts", you have a "history of concerns", you have example of "due diligence" failing / not being enough but yet the product is still being sold. Why? Why not pull the cars out of the market then? Isn't it your argument for the album? we have doubts and due diligence isn't perfect therefore it shouldn't be sold?

They can believe whoever they want, but they certainly do not seem to take into account a huge number of MJ's fans who are sure 1000000% that it is not Michael. You can fool some a few people, but not thousands, whatever and whoever is behind this massive scam!

okay I avoided it but let's talk about huge numbers then. How many people bought the album, how many people protested the album?

Wasn't the argument presented in the thread before they got away with it because the album sold well, most people didn't care/ couldn't tell and that they could do it again? so what is it? huge number against or not?

Of course that they can be sued, but not found guilty. Let's not play with words.

Legal system isn't that definitive as you portray out to be. and showing due diligence doesn't automatically equal to a free pass. We discussed this before for example like you suggested a judge could ask did you run impostor vocals through the system and they say no the due diligence couldn't mean anything as they fail to do "everything reasonably possible". I wrote it before it's quite high standard.
 
Re: Michael - The Great Album Debate (Only Go Here if You Want To Continue The Controversy)

Excuses ARE 'utter nonsense/bullshit'....


Not if most of those "excuses" aren't excuses at all, but valid reasoning as to why something may be the way it is...Bottomline is, you wouldn't appreciate it if I responded to all of your "excuses" as to why Sony would do such a thing as complete and utter bullshit. So why do you find it acceptable to do it to others?


Many of you are rearing far away from what Michael taught and stood for. Get a hold of yourselves.
 
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