Michael Jackson's doctor says others gave him propofol

[GOLDSPACESUIT45]

Iam sorry if this has been posted. I have looked around and have not seen this but if this has been posted mods feel free to delete it ok thanks you.

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) – Michael Jackson's personal physician told investigators he was not the first doctor to give the pop star propofol, the powerful anesthetic that was one of the drugs to cause his death, according to court papers unsealed on Friday.
Dr. Conrad Murray, a target of the criminal probe into Jackson's death, recounted under questioning by a Los Angeles police detective that Jackson told him he was given propofol by two unnamed doctors in Germany, the affidavit states.
Murray, a heart specialist with offices in Houston and Las Vegas, was hired to care for Jackson while the singer prepared for a series of comeback concerts in the weeks before his sudden death in Los Angeles on June 25 at age 50.
The Los Angeles County coroner has ruled the death a homicide by overdose, determining that propofol and the sedative lorazepam were the main drugs that caused his death.
Murray previously had been identified as the target of a manslaughter probe, but Los Angeles prosecutors are still determining whether to seek criminal charges against any one of a number of doctors who treated the "Thriller" singer.
The latest affidavit was filed in support of a search warrant carried out in August at a Las Vegas pharmaceutical supply office where Murray bought propofol and other drugs later found in the singer's body, the affidavit states. Copies were made public Friday on celebrity news website TMZ.com.
Murray has admitted giving Jackson a 25-milligram dose of propofol the morning he died, according to police records. Murray told police he worried Jackson was addicted to propofol and was trying to wean him off the drug with smaller doses.
The latest affidavit says Murray recalled Jackson being vague when Murray asked who else was treating him and what drugs he was being prescribed.
Jackson mentioned two other doctors, his longtime dermatologist Dr. Arnold Klein and previous personal physician Allan Metzger, "had given him medicine and that it was not working," the affidavit states.
It also says Murray arranged at Jackson's request for another doctor in Las Vegas, identified as David Adams, to give the singer propofol, which he did in Murray's presence in "a third party cosmetologist's office."
The document also states that bottles of propofol were found in Murray's doctor's bag and on the bedside table of Jackson's home after his death.

 

[Soundmind]

Klien and metzeger meds were found beside mj's bed , they were sleeping aids , so no big deal . as for David Adams he had already denied everything murray said . he confirmed he was contacted by murray in march and he came with mj to his office but he did not administer any propofol to mj in murray presence .infact he said that was the only time he saw murray and he had never met him before.

he also confirmed he gave mj propofol on four different occasions when mj had serious dental procedures in 2008 .

Adams was there with another doctor . so propofol was not used to 'sleep'. it was a typical medical procedure .

the two German doctors we know about them , they were on the History tour. they did nothing wrong, they followed everything in the book .

The document also states that bottles of propofol were found in Murray's doctor's bag and on the bedside table of Jackson's home after his death.

can someone post an exact quote ?

 

[Beachlover]

the two German doctors we know about them , they were on the History tour. they did nothing wrong, they followed everything in the book .

can someone post an exact quote ?

Can you post a link showing me that? I only know there was talk of the doctors but nothing regarding their technique. Just trying to keep my facts straight.

 

[marebear]

But Murray is the one that gave him the propofol that caused his death. He admitted giving it to him. Other doctors should not have given it either but Murray was the one that did that day and he was negligent and careless. He is responsible and should be held accountable for the choices he made that day.

 

[Beachlover]

But Murray is the one that gave him the propofol that caused his death. He admitted giving it to him. Other doctors should not have given it either but Murray was the one that did that day and he was negligent and careless. He is responsible and should be held accountable for the choices he made that day.

I don't think that is in question here.

 

[Soundmind]

the German doctors were infact Ratner and another one from Germany, according to CNN they were traveling with mj during the history tour , they had a small clinic with them , they will be according to Lisa Bloom ( a major hater) Murray's biggest nightmare , because unlike him , they did administer propofol night after night during the history tour, they had all the medical equipment necessary and specified by the manufacturer to help in case something went wrong, one was an anaesthetist , the other was there to revive . they simply followed all the instructions and that's why MJ had never suffered any complications .

Murray on the other hand , had no medical equipment , had no expertise on propofol , and his lack of experience, his lack of regard to human life resulted in MJ's death .

 

[Beachlover]

the German doctors were infact Ratner and another one from Germany, according to CNN they were traveling with mj during the history tour , they had a small clinic with them , they will be according to Lisa Bloom ( a major hater) Murray's biggest nightmare , because unlike him , they did administer propofol night after night during the history tour, they had all the medical equipment necessary and specified by the manufacturer to help in case something went wrong, one was an anaesthetist , the other was there to revive . they simply followed all the instructions and that's why MJ had never suffered any complications .

Murray on the other hand , had no medical equipment , had no expertise on propofol , and his lack of experience, his lack of regard to human life resulted in MJ's death .

This is great. Do you have a link or can you point me in the direction of the article?

 

[Soundmind]

CNN , Anderson Cooper, Lisa Bloom , Dr Ratner , small clinic , Tour .

 

[ExoticPrincess]

the German doctors were infact Ratner and another one from Germany, according to CNN they were traveling with mj during the history tour , they had a small clinic with them , they will be according to Lisa Bloom ( a major hater) Murray's biggest nightmare , because unlike him , they did administer propofol night after night during the history tour, they had all the medical equipment necessary and specified by the manufacturer to help in case something went wrong, one was an anaesthetist , the other was there to revive . they simply followed all the instructions and that's why MJ had never suffered any complications .

Murray on the other hand , had no medical equipment , had no expertise on propofol , and his lack of experience, his lack of regard to human life resulted in MJ's death .

My thing with this though is, why did Michael need to be prescribed this in the first place as a sleeping aid while on the tour? I just don't get it. A course was started here that led to something deadly happening.

 

[Ramona122003]

My thing with this though is, why did Michael need to be prescribed this in the first place as a sleeping aid while on the tour? I just don't get it. A course was started here that led to something deadly happening.

Unless we know exactly what caused his insomnia and what he was taking to treat it over the years, we can never have a solid answer. Just a bunch of theories that could be completely wrong.

Given how Michael was using propofol, he only seemed to used it when he had a very tight timeline to follow and needed to be fully rested. Michael said himself that he had trouble sleeping on tour and add to the fact that he had insomnia did not help. I have heard from his friends, family, and employees that Michael could go days without sleeping. It was so bad he actually said one time he occasionally sleeps. Which is why some thought he had a drug problem.

It is easy to say with 20/20 hindsight that this chain of events led to his death, but you have to remember that propofol is a safe drug when done correctly with the right equipment. It was really Murray screwing up that killed him. If he had a good doctor, even though it is not a good idea to take propofol to sleep, he might still be alive.

 

[Soundmind]

what everyone keep forgetting propofol has never been a controlled substance, it was not illegal to be used outside a medical facility , what a doctor is bound to do by law is to follow whatever instructions set by the manufacturer , what was written on the propofol bottle, the precautions, the instructions ...etc everything the manufacturer printed on that bottle . that's it , nothing else .

here is Murray's biggest nightmare , HE IGNORED ALL THESE INSTRUCTIONS , he simply did not follow them , and with a drug like propofol with the smallest error resulting in death , no excuse would be acceptable .


according to Dr.Adams 6000 of his patients got propofol during the last eight years , none of them died , it is that safe when administered properly .


according to Bloom the question will be WHY JACKSON SURVIVED AND SUFFERED NO COMPLICATIONS BEFORE BUT ONCE YOU CAME HE DROPPED DEAD ?

the other doctors are good for the prosecution case, they will be an evidence of Murray incompetent .

 

[Beachlover]

Here is what I found from CNN:

Tonight, new information on Jackson's history with potent sleep drugs -- 360 M.D. Sanjay Gupta has been on the trail of a doctor who we've learned worked for Jackson on tour in the late 1990s, an anesthesiologist himself with a checkered medical past. Sanjay what have you learned?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'll tell you. We know several things now. Sources close to Michael Jackson tell us that during the "History" tour back in '96 and '97 Jackson was actually traveling with what looked like a mini clinic, including an IV pole, drips and what looked like a rack with lights and monitors and such.

Sources who had the opportunity to see Jackson at various points during the tour say Jackson was traveling with at least two doctors and one of whom was anesthesiologist Dr. Neil Ratner.

Now, one source said he asked Ratner about all this elaborate equipment, and Ratner said he was there because Michael simply couldn't sleep. Now Ratner went on to say, according to the source, "I take him down at night" -- referring to Jackson -- "and I bring him back up in the morning."

Now, a source said Michael Jackson often appeared groggy. And when the source asked Jackson about all of this equipment, he just said he needed sleep. So, it was pretty remarkable, Anderson, to just hear that so clearly. COOPER: Well Sanjay, I mean, over the past couple of nights we've talked to each other about how dangerous powerful anesthetics can be. Do we know anything about precautions taken to protect Jackson on this tour?

GUPTA: Yes, we do. Sources say that Ratner would keep the equipment in his hotel room, which would be next to Jackson's. And he would use that for monitoring Jackson's vital signs when he was asleep, or under, as the source put it.

Now, there was a "Vanity Fair" article that said a former business associate of Jackson's said the singer had a quote, "sleep disorder," and then Ratner confirmed that to us today on the phone.

But I really want to talk to him some more, so we tracked him down, Anderson, today at the Woodstock, New York, where he now lives with his wife. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA (on camera): We've come here because your name was obviously associated with Michael Jackson. And people said that there was a question of whether or not you gave anesthesia to him while he was on tour. And we just wanted to come to the source, you, and hear and find out if that had happened.

DR. NEIL RATNER, FORMER PHYSICIAN OF MICHAEL JACKSON'S: I'm very upset. I'm distraught. Michael was a good person.

I can't talk about it right now. It's really something I don't want to talk about right now. I've lost a friend and I feel very badly about that.

GUPTA: There were two people, and I just want to allow you to respond to this. And you can or you don't have to. But I think it's important that you hear this. We have a couple of different sources have said they would see IV equipment, what sounded like probably pumps, they described as sort of an audio rack sort of looking thing in a hotel room with Michael. And they made it sound like that was your stuff. Are they wrong? I was really...

RATNER: I don't want to talk about this topic at all now. I really have nothing to say about it right now. You know? The man hasn't had a funeral, and the man hasn't been buried. It's inappropriate. I don't want to talk about it right now. And I appreciate it if we could end this now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Ok to be fair, it sounds like they had monitoring equipment but to say it was BY THE BOOK is a far stretch. Even then it was probably a very risky thing to do and in my opinion should not have been done.

Everyone seems to get very upset when I say these things and they think I am not blaming Murray, but that is not true. Of course he is the last man standing and to blame, but I also see that this could have happened years ago and some small part of me is angry at Michael too for allowing this to happen. I know a lot of people will disagree and say that I am wrong, but this is my personal feeling and I am just mad that he let this happen. He was so young and had so much going for him.

Darn it....I want him not to be gone.

 

[Ramona122003]

what everyone keep forgetting propofol has never been a controlled substance, it was not illegal to be used outside a medical facility , what a doctor is bound to do by law is to follow whatever instructions set by the manufacturer , what was written on the propofol bottle, the precautions, the instructions ...etc everything the manufacturer printed on that bottle . that's it , nothing else .

here is Murray's biggest nightmare , HE IGNORED ALL THESE INSTRUCTIONS , he simply did not follow them , and with a drug like propofol with the smallest error resulting in death , no excuse would be acceptable .


according to Dr.Adams 6000 of his patients got propofol during the last eight years , none of them died , it is that safe when administered properly .


according to Bloom the question will be WHY JACKSON SURVIVED AND SUFFERED NO COMPLICATIONS BEFORE BUT ONCE YOU CAME HE DROPPED DEAD ?

the other doctors are good for the prosecution case, they will be an evidence of Murray incompetent .

I think the question is simpler than that. He would be asked:

"As a doctor who just given a patient multiple drugs, why did you leave their bedside of instead of monitoring them?"

 

[Memefan]

But Murray is the one that gave him the propofol that caused his death. He admitted giving it to him. Other doctors should not have given it either but Murray was the one that did that day and he was negligent and careless. He is responsible and should be held accountable for the choices he made that day.

He is going down, he is trying to take as many with him. Loser.

But I do think Klein & Hoefflin are the ones who probably started MJ down that path

 

[Soundmind]

By the way Murray was supposedly the doctor who would revive not the doctor who would administer , Dr. Admas was contacted to be the doctor who would administer but he declined for whatever reason .

from an article posted on Foxnews , murray contacted a fellow doctor in Houston or Vegas to join him as part of the medical team for the This is it . I believe that was also contacted to be the one who would administer . but he declined because he could not leave his family and clinic for a long period . so murray told mj" i'll do it myself"

 

[vargak]

My thing with this though is, why did Michael need to be prescribed this in the first place as a sleeping aid while on the tour? I just don't get it. A course was started here that led to something deadly happening.

and this the question the investigation should also consider...interesting things would come to light then .....

 

[Beachlover]

what everyone keep forgetting propofol has never been a controlled substance, it was not illegal to be used outside a medical facility , what a doctor is bound to do by law is to follow whatever instructions set by the manufacturer , what was written on the propofol bottle, the precautions, the instructions ...etc everything the manufacturer printed on that bottle . that's it , nothing else .

here is Murray's biggest nightmare , HE IGNORED ALL THESE INSTRUCTIONS , he simply did not follow them , and with a drug like propofol with the smallest error resulting in death , no excuse would be acceptable .

according to Dr.Adams 6000 of his patients got propofol during the last eight years , none of them died , it is that safe when administered properly .

according to Bloom the question will be WHY JACKSON SURVIVED AND SUFFERED NO COMPLICATIONS BEFORE BUT ONCE YOU CAME HE DROPPED DEAD ?

the other doctors are good for the prosecution case, they will be an evidence of Murray incompetent .

Thats not totally in question but you haven't got all the facts straight. You have a case for negligence or incompetence but that's not enough of a sentence and fans won't be happy with that.

I am sure he is preparing his defense about why this happened at this time and thats why I hope this never really gets to court cause it won't be pretty and we are going to have to hear a lot more bad stuff about Michael and quite frankly, I have heard enough to last my lifetime without hearing more.

I simply want to keep 'facts' straight and not cloud them with our personal opinions.

 

[Soundmind]

Here is what I found from CNN:

Tonight, new information on Jackson's history with potent sleep drugs -- 360 M.D. Sanjay Gupta has been on the trail of a doctor who we've learned worked for Jackson on tour in the late 1990s, an anesthesiologist himself with a checkered medical past. Sanjay what have you learned?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'll tell you. We know several things now. Sources close to Michael Jackson tell us that during the "History" tour back in '96 and '97 Jackson was actually traveling with what looked like a mini clinic, including an IV pole, drips and what looked like a rack with lights and monitors and such.

Sources who had the opportunity to see Jackson at various points during the tour say Jackson was traveling with at least two doctors and one of whom was anesthesiologist Dr. Neil Ratner.

Now, one source said he asked Ratner about all this elaborate equipment, and Ratner said he was there because Michael simply couldn't sleep. Now Ratner went on to say, according to the source, "I take him down at night" -- referring to Jackson -- "and I bring him back up in the morning."

Now, a source said Michael Jackson often appeared groggy. And when the source asked Jackson about all of this equipment, he just said he needed sleep. So, it was pretty remarkable, Anderson, to just hear that so clearly. COOPER: Well Sanjay, I mean, over the past couple of nights we've talked to each other about how dangerous powerful anesthetics can be. Do we know anything about precautions taken to protect Jackson on this tour?

GUPTA: Yes, we do. Sources say that Ratner would keep the equipment in his hotel room, which would be next to Jackson's. And he would use that for monitoring Jackson's vital signs when he was asleep, or under, as the source put it.

Now, there was a "Vanity Fair" article that said a former business associate of Jackson's said the singer had a quote, "sleep disorder," and then Ratner confirmed that to us today on the phone.

But I really want to talk to him some more, so we tracked him down, Anderson, today at the Woodstock, New York, where he now lives with his wife. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA (on camera): We've come here because your name was obviously associated with Michael Jackson. And people said that there was a question of whether or not you gave anesthesia to him while he was on tour. And we just wanted to come to the source, you, and hear and find out if that had happened.

DR. NEIL RATNER, FORMER PHYSICIAN OF MICHAEL JACKSON'S: I'm very upset. I'm distraught. Michael was a good person.

I can't talk about it right now. It's really something I don't want to talk about right now. I've lost a friend and I feel very badly about that.

GUPTA: There were two people, and I just want to allow you to respond to this. And you can or you don't have to. But I think it's important that you hear this. We have a couple of different sources have said they would see IV equipment, what sounded like probably pumps, they described as sort of an audio rack sort of looking thing in a hotel room with Michael. And they made it sound like that was your stuff. Are they wrong? I was really...

RATNER: I don't want to talk about this topic at all now. I really have nothing to say about it right now. You know? The man hasn't had a funeral, and the man hasn't been buried. It's inappropriate. I don't want to talk about it right now. And I appreciate it if we could end this now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Ok to be fair, it sounds like they had monitoring equipment but to say it was BY THE BOOK is a far stretch. Even then it was probably a very risky thing to do and in my opinion should not have been done.

Everyone seems to get very upset when I say these things and they think I am not blaming Murray, but that is not true. Of course he is the last man standing and to blame, but I also see that this could have happened years ago and some small part of me is angry at Michael too for allowing this to happen. I know a lot of people will disagree and say that I am wrong, but this is my personal feeling and I am just mad that he let this happen. He was so young and had so much going for him.

Darn it....I want him not to be gone.

they did everything by the book , they were at least two doctors , one of them an anaethesist , all the necessary equipments were available . a mini clinic was there . by the law they did everything right , they were 'innovative' in using it as a 'sleep aid' . that was it .


again Dr.Adams adminiter it to 6000 patients in 8 years and no one died .

propofol is GREAT , WONDERFUL drug when administered properly .

 

[Beachlover]

He is going down, he is trying to take as many with him. Loser.

But I do think Klein & Hoefflin are the ones who probably started MJ down that path

In all fairness, how can you blame doctors doing a procedure on his face for this? Do you think that you would be able to stand having your face cut or needles stuck in it, near your eyes and other painful places if you were awake for it? Just to be fair.

 

[Ramona122003]

Here is what I found from CNN:

Tonight, new information on Jackson's history with potent sleep drugs -- 360 M.D. Sanjay Gupta has been on the trail of a doctor who we've learned worked for Jackson on tour in the late 1990s, an anesthesiologist himself with a checkered medical past. Sanjay what have you learned?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'll tell you. We know several things now. Sources close to Michael Jackson tell us that during the "History" tour back in '96 and '97 Jackson was actually traveling with what looked like a mini clinic, including an IV pole, drips and what looked like a rack with lights and monitors and such.

Sources who had the opportunity to see Jackson at various points during the tour say Jackson was traveling with at least two doctors and one of whom was anesthesiologist Dr. Neil Ratner.

Now, one source said he asked Ratner about all this elaborate equipment, and Ratner said he was there because Michael simply couldn't sleep. Now Ratner went on to say, according to the source, "I take him down at night" -- referring to Jackson -- "and I bring him back up in the morning."

Now, a source said Michael Jackson often appeared groggy. And when the source asked Jackson about all of this equipment, he just said he needed sleep. So, it was pretty remarkable, Anderson, to just hear that so clearly. COOPER: Well Sanjay, I mean, over the past couple of nights we've talked to each other about how dangerous powerful anesthetics can be. Do we know anything about precautions taken to protect Jackson on this tour?

GUPTA: Yes, we do. Sources say that Ratner would keep the equipment in his hotel room, which would be next to Jackson's. And he would use that for monitoring Jackson's vital signs when he was asleep, or under, as the source put it.

Now, there was a "Vanity Fair" article that said a former business associate of Jackson's said the singer had a quote, "sleep disorder," and then Ratner confirmed that to us today on the phone.

But I really want to talk to him some more, so we tracked him down, Anderson, today at the Woodstock, New York, where he now lives with his wife. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA (on camera): We've come here because your name was obviously associated with Michael Jackson. And people said that there was a question of whether or not you gave anesthesia to him while he was on tour. And we just wanted to come to the source, you, and hear and find out if that had happened.

DR. NEIL RATNER, FORMER PHYSICIAN OF MICHAEL JACKSON'S: I'm very upset. I'm distraught. Michael was a good person.

I can't talk about it right now. It's really something I don't want to talk about right now. I've lost a friend and I feel very badly about that.

GUPTA: There were two people, and I just want to allow you to respond to this. And you can or you don't have to. But I think it's important that you hear this. We have a couple of different sources have said they would see IV equipment, what sounded like probably pumps, they described as sort of an audio rack sort of looking thing in a hotel room with Michael. And they made it sound like that was your stuff. Are they wrong? I was really...

RATNER: I don't want to talk about this topic at all now. I really have nothing to say about it right now. You know? The man hasn't had a funeral, and the man hasn't been buried. It's inappropriate. I don't want to talk about it right now. And I appreciate it if we could end this now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Ok to be fair, it sounds like they had monitoring equipment but to say it was BY THE BOOK is a far stretch. Even then it was probably a very risky thing to do and in my opinion should not have been done.

Everyone seems to get very upset when I say these things and they think I am not blaming Murray, but that is not true. Of course he is the last man standing and to blame, but I also see that this could have happened years ago and some small part of me is angry at Michael too for allowing this to happen. I know a lot of people will disagree and say that I am wrong, but this is my personal feeling and I am just mad that he let this happen. He was so young and had so much going for him.

Darn it....I want him not to be gone.

The problem is that it didn't happen under other doctors. You can say this could had happen at anytime, but it didn't. He could had taken propofol for the next 20 years and no suffer any ill effects or he could had died during the History Tour. Since none of the above happen, the point is moot.

Maybe if he didn't take propofol he would had taken multiple sedatives like Heath Ledger and OD that way. Maybe he would had been driven so insane by his insomnia that he commits suicide.

We can use this circular logic and what ifs questions until the cows come home, but it is all moot. The facts reminds that Murray screw up and did not do what a doctor should do. What could of, should, would of happen really does not matter at this point.

 

[Beachlover]

they did everything by the book , they were at least two doctors , one of them an anaethesist , all the necessary equipments were available . a mini clinic was there . by the law they did everything right , they were 'innovative' in using it as a 'sleep aid' . that was it .


again Dr.Adams adminiter it to 6000 patients in 8 years and no one died .

propofol is GREAT , WONDERFUL drug when administered properly .

I give up. You see it how you see it, right or wrong.

 

[vargak]

propofol is not great not wonderful even when it is administered properly..if someone needs to be administered w Dipravi-Propol just to go to sleep outside of a hospital setting or a surgery taking place there is something wrong!
Sleep should be natural if someone is insomniac proper care and assistance should be given..propofol hardly fits the term of "proper care and assistance" for an insomnia...
and this where it all starts....why wasnt MJ given proper care and assistance to manage his insomnia for YEARS?! how did he became such a SEVERE insomniac?! that is what also should be investigated..not just what happened on that tragic night

 

[Soundmind]

Thats not totally in question but you haven't got all the facts straight. You have a case for negligence or incompetence but that's not enough of a sentence and fans won't be happy with that.

I am sure he is preparing his defense about why this happened at this time and thats why I hope this never really gets to court cause it won't be pretty and we are going to have to hear a lot more bad stuff about Michael and quite frankly, I have heard enough to last my lifetime without hearing more.

I simply want to keep 'facts' straight and not cloud them with our personal opinions.

Beachlover, you ask for something I provide for you , then you go and turn it upside down and say it is against mj .

no it is not against mj at all . Murray had no defense, Murray said yes , murray contacted other doctors to join him , murray then decided to do it himself because he wanted money .

MJ did not use it after the history tour , that means he was not dependant on it, it was simply a temporary solution to a chronic problem.

when he had to rehearse and tour he had to get some sort of rest and propofol was a temporary solution when everything failed to do so .

It was murray's incompetent and his lack of regard to human life that killed mj .

 

[Beachlover]

The problem is that it didn't happen under other doctors. You can say this could had happen at anytime, but it didn't. He could had taken propofol for the next 20 years and no suffer any ill effects or he could had died during the History Tour. Since none of the above happen, the point is moot.

Maybe if he didn't take propofol he would had taken multiple sedatives like Heath Ledger and OD that way. Maybe he would had been driven so insane by his insomnia that he commits suicide.

We can use this circular logic and what ifs questions until the cows come home, but it is all moot. The facts reminds that Murray screw up and did not do what a doctor should do. What could of, should, would of happen really does not matter at this point.

To an extent I do agree. This was not done properly and whatever happened before is not so important in the scheme of things but I hate to see things misquoted and told in such a way that it rewrites HIStory so to speak. I like the facts to be factual, actual.

 

[Ramona122003]

propofol is not great not wonderful even when it is administered properly..if someone needs to be administered w Dipravi-Propol just to go to sleep outside of a hospital setting or a surgery taking place there is something wrong!
Sleep should be natural if someone is insomniac proper care and assistance should be given..propofol hardly fits the term of "proper care and assistance" for an insomnia...
and this where it all starts....why wasnt MJ given proper care and assistance to manage his insomnia for YEARS?! how did he became such a SEVERE insomniac?! that is what also should be investigated..not just what happened on that tragic night

I fail to see how answering why Michael had insomnia would help the case. That seems more like a questions fans what to know for the sake of information. Michael's prior medical past had no bearing on what Murray has done, so I see no point to why it should be brought up.

The question is not why Murray gave him propofol. The questions are why did leave the room when his patient was under seduction, why didn't he call 911 immediately after he discovered Michael not breathing, and why as a heart doctor did he mess up CPR?

 

[Soundmind]

propofol is not great not wonderful even when it is administered properly..if someone needs to be administered w Dipravi-Propol just to go to sleep outside of a hospital setting or a surgery taking place there is something wrong!
Sleep should be natural if someone is insomniac proper care and assistance should be given..propofol hardly fits the term of "proper care and assistance" for an insomnia...
and this where it all starts....why wasnt MJ given proper care and assistance to manage his insomnia for YEARS?! how did he became such a SEVERE insomniac?! that is what also should be investigated..not just what happened on that tragic night

when will you guys stop claiming he was using it as a cure or treatment and it was not a cure nor a treatment .

he suffered from insomnia all his life , he accepted it and lived with it , but when he had to rehearse or tour he had no choice but to sleep and propofol offered him ' eight hours' of rest .

It was again a temporary solution for a chronic problem .

the insomnia from 35 years , not new . he had a problem a huge problem but it was not his fault he could not sleep naturally , what the hell is wrong with you ?

the guy could not sleep naturally since he was a little kid , and you act like he was some kind of freak.

 

[Beachlover]

Beachlover, you ask for something I provide for you , then you go and turn it upside down and say it is against mj .

no it is not against mj at all . Murray had no defense, Murray said yes , murray contacted other doctors to join him , murray then decided to do it himself because he wanted money .

MJ did not use it after the history tour , that means he was not dependant on it, it was simply a temporary solution to a chronic problem.

when he had to rehearse and tour he had to get some sort of rest and propofol was a temporary solution when everything failed to do so .

It was murray's incompetent and his lack of regard to human life that killed mj .

I never said he was dependent on Propofol. I didn't turn it against MJ. I agree that Murray was wrong and did not do things properly. I simply questioned what you said as 'fact' and wanted to know more about it. I am sorry if I offend some people. Thats not my intention at all.

I am no less sorry than you are that Michael is gone and I guess my way of dealing with it is to gather my facts and think about it all. I need it to be true, and not what we want it to be or imagine it to be.

 

[Beachlover]

when will you guys stop claiming he was using it as a cure or treatment and it was not a cure nor a treatment .

he suffered from insomnia all his life , he accepted it and lived with it , but when he had to rehearse or tour he had no choice but to sleep and propofol offered him ' eight hours' of rest .

It was again a temporary solution to a chronic problem .

the insomnia was from 35 years , not new . he had a problem a huge problem but it was not his fault he could not sleep naturally , what the hell is wrong with you ?

the guy could not sleep naturally since he was a little kid , and you act like he was some kind of freak.

Ok. I understand you are upset about things, but be patient with people who ask questions. I have suffered insomnia at times and know it is mind boggling and you get so tired and you want to sleep but you wake up soon after you get to sleep.....so I do understand.

I think many people are frustrated too because there ARE other solutions and they are just unhappy that this was such a sad ending for something so seemingly simple...just sleep.

 

[Soundmind]

so what 'facts' were not presented ?

I said there was a mini clinic, there were two doctors , one of them an anaethesist , there were all the necessary equipments , propofol not a controlled substance, it was not illegal to be used outside a medical facility . jackson did not suffer any complications before when professional doctors administered it will be used against murray .

tell me now what was not factual about my post ?

 

[Soundmind]

Ok. I understand you are upset about things, but be patient with people who ask questions. I have suffered insomnia at times and know it is mind boggling and you get so tired and you want to sleep but you wake up soon after you get to sleep.....so I do understand.

I think many people are frustrated too because there ARE other solutions and they are just unhappy that this was such a sad ending for something so seemingly simple...just sleep.

those other solutions either were not offered to MJ or simply did not work at all .

have anyone asked himself/herself why would he use this drug which has no 'high' advantages whatever if indeed he was offered another effective solution ?


people get addcited to propofol, but they reinject themselves many times a day , sometimes more than hundred injection a day .

he was not doing so , he was trying to sleep , he tried , he indeed tried but nothing worked, nothing was presented to him worked .

the guy told two executives at Sony he wanted to stop touring because "the last time they hooked me to an iv to sleep" , he did not like it, he did not want it, he was a NIGHT man , he stayed up for days , he used to call people all the time at 2, 3 ,4 am , he accepted it but when he had to tour or rehearse THERE WAS NO CHOICE BUT TO SLEEP , TO GET SOME KIND OF REST .
yet some here blame him for his insomnia and even for his own death .