Michael Jackson Estate to Joe: No, No, No

[ivy]

There are several issues going on here. There is Murray's refusal to sign the death certificate, even though it's very likely Michael was long gone when paramedics were called. There is the issue of whether or not the family actually DID have a second autopsy done. We do not KNOW if they did or did not. They were "planning to," but there is no evidence that they actually did. If there is "evidence," someone please post that, so we can be certain? Then there is Joseph's track-record of opportunism. And there is much more..

Haven't we already discussed this in IU?. there are several sources that show that the second autopsy is done.

- The coroners office said they were notified of the second autopsy. This is the exact quote "Los Angeles County Coroner's investigator Brian Elias said yesterday that Jackson's family told his office on Friday they want a second autopsy carried out."
- 6/29/2009 Press Conference : Joe speaks about the private autopsy saying that it is underway. I think around 2:26 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F34lwv51b0s
- Joe also confirmed it at CNN Larry King Live that it was completed. Here's the copy of the transcript.
KING: The official autopsy results have not yet been released. They've been delayed a while, I guess. But you had a private autopsy. What can you tell us it said, Joe?
JACKSON: Well, I haven't -- I don't know yet. I haven't heard it. I haven't read it.
KING: Didn't you get a private autopsy for the family?
JACKSON: Yes, but they haven't -- they haven't reported nothing to me yet.
- Brian Oxman gave an interview to The Sun talking about the results, how the doctor came home to tell Katherine the details.
- Latoya gave an interview to tabloids talking about the autopsy results, needle marks etc.

I think we can be quite certain that a second autopsy is done as we heard it from Joe, Latoya and even Oxman.

 

[Memefan]

That may all be very well true. But the estate should not be stopping Joe from having MJs medical records. There will be nothing in medical records that gives Joe legal reasons for an allowance. The only thing in the medical records will show whether MJ was DOA, etc.

The estate does not make the law, they are just reminding Joe why he cannot have access to MJ's medical records. And It is not only the estate....HIPAA also is stopping joe.

Basically, the estate is the least of Joe's problem...HIPAA laws DICTATE who can have access MJ's medical records: ONLY HIS REPRESENTATIVES.

The LAW says Joe has not say. Thank God.

Yes I do. Its the fact that the estate is opposing it that has me raising my eyebrows. The estate should be onside of the family, and not being a hindrance.

The estate also tried to block Katherine having MJ's AEG contract. Why?

Like I said, Joe having the records does not allow him any money from MJ. Even if a wrongful death suit is filed, if the family won, the money would go to the estate not Joe.

Actually, AEG did not want the contract public. The estate were legally bound not to share the contract with anyone ..and if you go back, you will see that in court papers, they were willing to share the information with her BUT she had to sign a confidentiality agreement not to make the contract available to anyone else. She refused to sign the confidentiality agreement, so AEG wouldn't let her see the contract.

She went to court to request the contract. And guess what? The judge warned her not to share the information in the contract with third parties.

All that information is available online.

I think we can be quite certain that a second autopsy is done as we heard it from Joe, Latoya and even Oxman.

Do we only have confirmation from these 3 people? Then, I would positively say, the second autopsy did not happen. These 3 are the least reliable off all the players.

Otherwise, Joe wouldn't need medical records to know how much to sue Murray for.

OT: He cannot even sue Murray legally, he was not a dependant. Only MJ's children and Katherine can sue.

 

[Dangerous Incorporated]

The LAW says Joe has not say. Thank God.

Really? Thank God? Cuz I for one would like to know what is in those medical records that everyone is trying to keep so protected. What's in them that they dont want everyone to know? What harm is it going to cause for Michael's father to look in the files?

Oh please and wonder why AEG didnt want anyone to see MJs AEG contract. Everybody has something to hide dont they?

 

[Rockin.]

We dont know that as there is still dispute about that. Joe claims that MJ was already dead when he arrived at the UCLA and by the way the ambulance left MJ's compound (which was slow with no lights or sirens on) it appears that that MJ may have been already deceased by then.

I don't remember reading that Joe claimed MJ was already dead, where was that?

We have Frank Dileo saying in the Raffles Van Exel interview that a nurse told him Michael was already gone but they would continue working on him until his mother arrived.

I thought it was from a paramedic who also said it. I read that paramedics wanted to pronounce Michael dead at the scene but Murray insisted they take him to hospital.

I'm trying to find a source, I found this right away, there is probably others:

Dr. Conrad Murray, the official target of the LAPD homicide investigation in Michael Jackson’s death, is not an anesthesiologist, yet he may have administered Propofol to the singer and then fell asleep as his patient was dying. When the paramedics arrived on the scene, Michael Jackson was dead, TMZ informs, and Murray was acting very strange.

As we were also telling a short while back, there is speculation that Michael Jackson might have still been alive if it had not been for his personal doctor, Dr. Conrad Murray, administering propofol to him, a very powerful anesthetic.

Not only was Murray present at the house when the singer’s heart stopped, but he was also the one to perform CPR on him, call for the ambulance and insist that he be rushed to the hospital, which is extremely strange, since Jackson was already dead when the paramedics got there.

According to the aforementioned publication, inside sources claim paramedics found Michael Jackson dead when they arrived on the scene. He was flatlined and showed no signs that a trip to the hospital was necessary.

“Our sources say when paramedics got to Jackson’s home he was flatlined. There was no electrical activity in his heart and Jackson showed no sign of life. Multiple sources say paramedics wanted to pronounce Jackson dead at the scene but Dr. Conrad Murray insisted that the singer be transported to the hospital. Dr. Murray – as a higher medical authority than the EMTs – had the power to overrule them.” TMZ writes.

What’s more, not only did Murray overrule paramedics in saying Jackson should be taken to the hospital as well, but he was also acting extremely strange. It was, insiders say, as if he was doing his best to hinder the paramedics from doing their job, or as if he was feeling guilty about something. Of course, this should be taken with a grain of salt, since it’s coming from unauthorized police sources, one might as well add.

“Law enforcement sources tell us one of the theories they’re exploring in Michael Jackson’s death is that Dr. Conrad Murray administered Propofol to the singer and then left the room, eventually to return to a dead body. Our sources say when paramedics arrived Michael Jackson was found with an IV in his arm, an IV stand nearby along with an empty IV bag and oxygen tank. We’re told paramedics who arrived on scene say Dr. Murray’s conduct was ‘strange’ – he was ‘hard to deal with’ and was ‘getting in the way’ of emergency responders.” the same celebrity gossip website / paparazzi agency informs.

I know there are a lot of 'our insiders say' and the infamous 'a. source'

Edit: Found the TMZ article:

Paramedics: Jackson Dead When We Arrived

Posted Jul 27th 2009 12:30AM by TMZ Staff

Law enforcement sources tell us when paramedics arrived at Michael Jackson's house he was already dead ... and it took them a while to even realize the victim was the famous singer.

Our sources say when paramedics got to Jackson's home he was flatlined. There was no electrical activity in his heart and Jackson showed no sign of life.

Multiple sources say paramedics wanted to pronounce Jackson dead at the scene but Dr. Conrad Murray insisted that the singer be transported to the hospital. Dr. Murray -- as a higher medical authority than the EMTs -- had the power to overrule them.

Paramedics didn't realize for nearly 10 minutes the victim was Michael Jackson. As one emergency worker put it: "It just looked like a frail, old, sickly man."

Yet other reports said he had a faint pulse on arrival.. so.. what is the truth?

And if he was dead already at his home, why did they work on him in the hospital...even after they knew he was gone, to wait until his mother arrived?!

None of this is making sense. I'm so confused.

 

[Dangerous Incorporated]

Haven't we already discussed this in IU?. there are several sources that show that the second autopsy is done.

Yes there has been a 2nd autopsy done for sure. It was widely reported as well as Larry King talking to Joe about it who said he still didnt know what the results were.

 

[ivy]

here the doc. :

http://www.etonline.com/documents/jacksonmotion_feb4_et.pdf

Okay the documents are SOOOOO interesting. Two main things

- Joe has asked for ALL MEDICAL DOCUMENTS, Medical Correspondence regarding to MJ. (See page 6 - requests 1,2,3)
- Apparently autopsy records are not privileged (also meaning that MJ's autopsy will probably made available eventually[during or after trial]) but emergency life saving procedures are protected under patient-doctor privilege even though the patient cannot communicate (unconscious during time) and dies during/shortly after these procedures. UCLA records fall under emergency life saving procedures.

After reading the documents I can easily say that Oxman does not know what he is doing.

 

[Rockin.]

Okay the documents are SOOOOO interesting. Two main things

- Joe has asked for ALL MEDICAL DOCUMENTS, Medical Correspondence regarding to MJ. (See page 6 - requests 1,2,3)
- Apparently autopsy records are not privileged (also meaning that MJ's autopsy will probably made available eventually[during of after trial]) but emergency life saving procedures are protected under patient-doctor privilege even though the patient cannot communicate (unconscious during time) and dies during/shortly after these procedures. UCLA records fall under emergency life saving procedures.

After reading the documents I can easily say that Oxman does not know what he is doing.

Yes are protected unter patient-doctor privilege, but it said in the OP that this patient-doctor privilege doesn't exist if the patient was dead on arrival at the hospital? Which he could have been....

But Murray wouldn't pronounce him dead and insisted he go to the hospital.. so this is why he is protected under patient-doctor privilege?? - was Michael dead at his home but Murray did this to stop the info coming out that Joe now wants?

Confused.

 

[ivy]

I don't remember reading that Joe claimed MJ was already dead, where was that?

We have Frank Dileo saying in the Raffles Van Exel interview that a nurse told him Michael was already gone but they would continue working on him until his mother arrived.

I thought it was from a paramedic who also said it. I read that paramedics wanted to pronounce Michael dead at the scene but Murray insisted they take him to hospital.


Yet other reports said he had a faint pulse on arrival.. so.. what is the truth?

And if he was dead already at his home, why did they work on him in the hospital...even after they knew he was gone, to wait until his mother arrived?!

None of this is making sense. I'm so confused.

Yes are protected unter patient-doctor privilege, but it said in the OP that this patient-doctor privilege doesn't exist if the patient was dead on arrival at the hospital? Which he could have been....

As for as this case for Joe's request for medical records whether he was alive or dead on arrival to hospital does not matter. Legally he died at 14.26 PM and legally he was alive during the paramedics took him to hospital and when he arrived the hospital. In reality he might already be dead for several hours, but like I said it does not matter.

I guess we'll learn the truth during the trial. He might had a pulse or already dead but paramedics took him to hospital and worked on him either because 1)Murray asked them to do and paramedics have to follow doctor's orders or 2)he was seen as a high profile person and wanted to make sure that everything possible was done.

 

[Dangerous Incorporated]

Do we only have confirmation from these 3 people? Then, I would positively say, the second autopsy did not happen. These 3 are the least reliable off all the players.

Otherwise, Joe wouldn't need medical records to know how much to sue Murray for.

Joe wants the medical reports to compare them to the autopsy reports. Simple really.

 

[Dangerous Incorporated]

Yes are protected unter patient-doctor privilege, but it said in the OP that this patient-doctor privilege doesn't exist if the patient was dead on arrival at the hospital? Which he could have been....

But Murray wouldn't pronounce him dead and insisted he go to the hospital.. so this is why he is protected under patient-doctor privilege?? - was Michael dead at his home but Murray did this to stop the info coming out that Joe now wants?

Confused.

Joe Jackson Gunning to Sue Over MJ's Death

Posted Jan 30th 2010 5:00AM by TMZ Staff

Joe Jackson is trying to force UCLA to hand over all of their medical records on Michael Jackson -- because daddy is looking to sue whoever is responsible for killing his son ... according to documents obtained by TMZ.

TMZ has obtained documents that Joe filed Friday in L.A. County Superior Court -- in which he claims, "The UCLA records will permit [Joe] to determine with medical experts and then present to this court, how much support [Joe] needs to pay for the prosecution of his wrongful death action against those responsible for his son's death."

Michael was transported to UCLA on June 25, 2009 -- where he was pronounced dead on arrival.

Joe says in the documents that Michael was already dead when he arrived at UCLA so there is no physician-patient privilege for a dead man.

Joe Jackson filed the papers in the Michael Jackson estate case -- responding to the Estate's opposition to Joe's motion for Michael's medical records. Joe claims the estate has refused to file a wrongful death lawsuit on his behalf and it is costing him money.

According to his legal docs, Joe thinks the medical records will show what really happened to Michael, and that will help Joe determine how much he'd be able to collect from those responsible for Michael's death.

UPDATE: Howard Weitzman, lawyer for Michael Jackson's estate, tells TMZ, "The estate continues to believe Joe Jackson's claims are not well taken and he should not have access to Michael's medical records."

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2010/01/30/joe-j...gful-death-ucla-estate-lawsuit/#ixzz0ecwqWt6N
​

 

[Dangerous Incorporated]

As for as this case for Joe's request for medical records whether he was alive or dead on arrival to hospital does not matter. Legally he died at 14.26 PM and legally he was alive during the paramedics took him to hospital and when he arrived the hospital. In reality he might already be dead for several hours, but like I said it does not matter.

Who declares when someone is dead on arrival and when they arrive is that is when they are legally dead, when they get to a hospital because thats not always the case.

 

[marc_vivien]

What Joe says is not important, it's the LAW

 

[Rockin.]

As for as this case for Joe's request for medical records whether he was alive or dead on arrival to hospital does not matter. Legally he died at 14.26 PM and legally he was alive during the paramedics took him to hospital and when he arrived the hospital. In reality he might already be dead for several hours, but like I said it does not matter.

I guess we'll learn the truth during the trial. He might had a pulse or already dead but paramedics took him to hospital and worked on him either because 1)Murray asked them to do and paramedics have to follow doctor's orders or 2)he was seen as a high profile person and wanted to make sure that everything possible was done.

Yes then my question is why did Murray refuse to pronounce him at his home if he was dead (if thats true), did he know about this patient-doctor privilege technicallity? Did he want to stop information coming out? Guess this is IU stuff..

 

[ivy]

delete - misunderstood the question.

 

[Memefan]

Really? Thank God? Cuz I for one would like to know what is in those medical records that everyone is trying to keep so protected. What's in them that they dont want everyone to know? What harm is it going to cause for Michael's father to look in the files?

Oh please and wonder why AEG didnt want anyone to see MJs AEG contract. Everybody has something to hide dont they?

Maybe you should take a minute and read the replies to your posts...because I feel several of us have been telling you the same thing over and over again.

Before you fire up another reply ..take a breather...and a minute and read and try to UNDERSTAND the replies. ok?

Joe has no say. THANK GOD.

Katherine should pursue to get the medical records if the autopsy results don't answer her questions.

I feel like I am back in second grade.

Contracts or contract terms are generally not made available...there is a little thing in business call: non disclosure agreement.

For a company like AEG, it is not in their best interest to have MJ's contract made public to 3rd parties. Because other artists they might want to enter into contract with, knowing how much MJ was making with AEG, might try to negotiate a contract as lucrative as MJ's with Live Nation or AEG.

ALL companies have non disclosure agreements nowadays. Most companies have their new employees sign NON DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT, to protect their business against competitors.

A non-disclosure agreement (NDA), also known as a confidentiality agreement, confidential disclosure agreement (CDA), proprietary information agreement (PIA), or secrecy agreement, is a legal contract between at least two parties that outlines confidential material, knowledge, or information that the parties wish to share with one another for certain purposes, but wish to restrict access to by third parties. It is a contract through which the parties agree not to disclose information covered by the agreement. An NDA creates a confidential relationship between the parties to protect any type of confidential and proprietary information or trade secrets. As such, an NDA protects non-public business information.

 

[Memefan]

Yes are protected unter patient-doctor privilege, but it said in the OP that this patient-doctor privilege doesn't exist if the patient was dead on arrival at the hospital? Which he could have been....

But Murray wouldn't pronounce him dead and insisted he go to the hospital.. so this is why he is protected under patient-doctor privilege?? - was Michael dead at his home but Murray did this to stop the info coming out that Joe now wants?

Confused.

Actually, Murray did more harm to the investigation by taking MJ to the hospital IF he was actually dead before he got there.

Had he been declared dead at the house, the house would have been immediately declared a crime scene, and Latoya and co would not have been allowed inside the house to ransack the place and trample on evidence.

 

[Ramona122003]

Haven't we already discussed this in IU?. there are several sources that show that the second autopsy is done.

- The coroners office said they were notified of the second autopsy. This is the exact quote "Los Angeles County Coroner's investigator Brian Elias said yesterday that Jackson's family told his office on Friday they want a second autopsy carried out."
- 6/29/2009 Press Conference : Joe speaks about the private autopsy saying that it is underway. I think around 2:26 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F34lwv51b0s
- Joe also confirmed it at CNN Larry King Live that it was completed. Here's the copy of the transcript.
KING: The official autopsy results have not yet been released. They've been delayed a while, I guess. But you had a private autopsy. What can you tell us it said, Joe?
JACKSON: Well, I haven't -- I don't know yet. I haven't heard it. I haven't read it.
KING: Didn't you get a private autopsy for the family?
JACKSON: Yes, but they haven't -- they haven't reported nothing to me yet.
- Brian Oxman gave an interview to The Sun talking about the results, how the doctor came home to tell Katherine the details.
- Latoya gave an interview to tabloids talking about the autopsy results, needle marks etc.

I think we can be quite certain that a second autopsy is done as we heard it from Joe, Latoya and even Oxman.

I see a problem. These three people have a history of lying and there was no needle marks on Michael's neck, which Toy claim was in the autopsy that the family did. They also talked to tabloids instead of new organizations. Since tabloids never check any facts, no one will follow up to see if any of their claims were true.

Also, read the first quote carefully:

- The coroners office said they were notified of the second autopsy. This is the exact quote "Los Angeles County Coroner's investigator Brian Elias said yesterday that Jackson's family told his office on Friday they want a second autopsy carried out."


It did not say that the second autopsy was done. It simply said the family wanted an another autopsy. Big differences.

I also find it strange if this second autopsy was done why they didn't ask the estate to flip the bill, they paid for everything else and if they did have one, who paid for it. That paid Janet back for her part for Michael's funeral, so I doubt they were let her just pay for an autopsy, which are expensive.

The family also seem to be clueless in many ways about what shape Michael was in and what killed him. They couldn't even get where the needle marks were.

Although, maybe the autopsy was done, but only certain family members can see it.

 

[Ramona122003]

Actually, Murray did more harm to the investigation by taking MJ to the hospital IF he was actually dead before he got there.

Had he been declared dead at the house, the house would have been immediately declared a crime scene, and Latoya and co would not have been allowed inside the house to ransack the place and trample on evidence.

This is slightly wrong. The LAPD close the house up almost the moment Michael was dead. The house was not release back towards the family until that night. It was during this time that they took Murray's car.

They only went back to get Murray's doctor bag, which was hidden. It was hidden so well that the LAPD and the family completely missed it because the bag was exactly where Murray left it.

Although, it would had been better for Murray to 'discover' Michael more than the crap he did instead.

 

[ivy]

Although, maybe the autopsy was done, but only certain family members can see it.

Generally families do private autopsy to get results faster. and they might have paid for it themselves as it is an extra thing to do (Estate can be willing to pay for funeral as it is an related expense but not a private autopsy as one is already being done by the coroner). I feel like there are two different opinions in the family and most probably Katherine does not support Joe's actions. I kinda think that she has the info but not telling the Joe - him telling that he has not seen the reports, going for record wrongful death suit himself while Katherine has more standing makes me think like this.

ps: as for the info goes I tried to list the available information in order coroner saying they are told to transfer the body, Joe saying it was underway, Joe saying it was finished and then Latoya and Oxman talking about the results.

 

[Ramona122003]

Generally families do private autopsy to get results faster. and they might have paid for it themselves as it is an extra thing to do (Estate can be willing to pay for funeral as it is an related expense but not a private autopsy as one is already being done by the coroner). I feel like there are two different opinions in the family and most probably Katherine does not support Joe's actions. I kinda think that she has the info but not telling the Joe - him telling that he has not seen the reports, going for record wrongful death suit himself while Katherine has more standing makes me think like this.

ps: as for the info goes I tried to list the available information in order coroner saying they are told to transfer the body, Joe saying it was underway, Joe saying it was finished and then Latoya and Oxman talking about the results.

But all three of them are unreliable sources. They all called him an addict under the control of multiple drugs and so on. Also, no one else from that family even mention the autopsy. They only acknowledge the leak autopsy report and even then it said it confirm their worst fears. If they did a second autopsy report, wouldn't they know that already? Why release a statement that confirms what you fear if you already knew?

Also, Toy claimed there were needle marks on Michael's neck, seemly confirming a tabloids which stated such a thing. No needle marks were found on his neck according the the leak autopsy and the family never stated otherwise.

Joe seems badly out of the loop to the point that it seems that he is throwing crap until something sticks.

 

[Annie123]

Your last sentence - no kidding. Mr. Jackson needs to get a new attorney.

Okay the documents are SOOOOO interesting. Two main things

- Joe has asked for ALL MEDICAL DOCUMENTS, Medical Correspondence regarding to MJ. (See page 6 - requests 1,2,3)
- Apparently autopsy records are not privileged (also meaning that MJ's autopsy will probably made available eventually[during or after trial]) but emergency life saving procedures are protected under patient-doctor privilege even though the patient cannot communicate (unconscious during time) and dies during/shortly after these procedures. UCLA records fall under emergency life saving procedures.

After reading the documents I can easily say that Oxman does not know what he is doing.

 

[curlybrat]

On the death certificate in box 102, it is marked "ER/OR". There is a box for "DOA" but that wasn't marked. Is it safe to assume that MJ was not "DeadOnArrival" but instead died in the ER?

 

[Soundmind]

On the death certificate in box 102, it is marked "ER/OR". There is a box for "DOA" but that wasn't marked. Is it safe to assume that MJ was not "DeadOnArrival" but instead died in the ER?

It is a technicality issue , we will know very soon what really happened .

 

[Justthefacts]

No they did not pronounce him dead until he got to the ER. They were waiting for Katherine to get there

 

[Soundmind]

and his attroney is claiming they expect a ONE charge of IM ohhh YOU WISH . I expect a list of charges and not one charge .

 

[curlybrat]

No they did not pronounce him dead until he got to the ER. They were waiting for Katherine to get there

I don't understand this. If he was dead when he was first brought in, why would the ER work on him at all? What reason would they have? I guess I could understand their waiting for Katherine if MJ died during their recovery efforts in the ER. But to initiate recovery efforts on a person who is already dead doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[ivy]

I don't understand this. If he was dead when he was first brought in, why would the ER work on him at all? What reason would they have? I guess I could understand their waiting for Katherine if MJ died during their recovery efforts in the ER. But to initiate recovery efforts on a person who is already dead doesn't make any sense to me.

he is a high profile person , they might have wanted to make sure they try everything under the sun and the moon even though it might not work or be too late.

Joe seems badly out of the loop to the point that it seems that he is throwing crap until something sticks.

That I completely agree with.

 

[Ramona122003]

I don't understand this. If he was dead when he was first brought in, why would the ER work on him at all? What reason would they have? I guess I could understand their waiting for Katherine if MJ died during their recovery efforts in the ER. But to initiate recovery efforts on a person who is already dead doesn't make any sense to me.

The best way to describe it is by the saying "death is a process, not an event."

A person can be clinic dead, but still brought back to life if given the proper care in time.

When Michael arrived at the ER, he was clinically dead. Meaning, no pulse and was not breathing. However, there was still a chance that he could be revive since they did not know how long he was dead. If given oxygen, a person can survive for up to 30 minutes before they can become brain dead.

Which is why you have people who were 'brought back from the dead."

 

[curlybrat]

The best way to describe it is by the saying "death is a process, not an event."

A person can be clinic dead, but still brought back to life if given the proper care in time.

When Michael arrived at the ER, he was clinically dead. Meaning, no pulse and was not breathing. However, there was still a chance that he could be revive since they did not know how long he was dead. If given oxygen, a person can survive for up to 30 minutes before they can become brain dead.

Which is why you have people who were 'brought back from the dead."

Thank you. So does this mean that he would had to have been either breathing or have a pulse when the EMTs first arrived? I think I read that they worked on him at the house for 40 minutes or so.

 

[Rasta Pasta]

Joe's whole premise and motive is suspect....its all about the money and