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Michael Jackson Estate to Joe: No, No, No

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Michael Jackson Estate to Joe: No, No, No

Posted Feb 4th 2010 5:57PM by TMZ Staff
Lawyers for Michael Jackson's estate have filed legal papers opposing Joe Jackson's attempt to get his son's UCLA medical records -- records Joe wants in order to file a wrongful death lawsuit.

0204_mj_joe_ex_tmz_01.jpg


Estate lawyers say there are three reasons why Joe is not entitled to medical records.

1. Joe was not a dependent of Michael Jackson and therefore not legally entitled to sue for the wrongful death of his son.

2. Joe has filed his request for medical records in connection with his attempt to get an allowance from the estate, and an allowance has nothing to do with wrongful death.

3. There is a physician-patient privilege that bars Joe from getting the medical records.

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/#ixzz0ec17QFF9



  • If Michael was dead when he arrived at UCLA then there is no physician-patient privilege.
  • No Dr wanted to sign MJs death certificate (as odd as that is). In fact we havent heard from any Dr's ever regarding MJ's death.
  • Why does the estate want to stop Joe digging through the medical records? Finding out how MJ died isnt going to allow Joe to get an allowance so why not let him have it?
 
MJ wasn't pronounced dead until after he was at UCLA and most likely the Attending Physician (or Medical Director or who ever was the one who does it there...) called it. Michael Jackson is entitled to the same HIPAA medical privacy laws as everyone else in the United States.
 
Reghead121 said:
MJ wasn't pronounced dead until after he was at UCLA and most likely the Attending Physician
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We dont know that as there is still dispute about that. Joe claims that MJ was already dead when he arrived at the UCLA and by the way the ambulance left MJ's compound (which was slow with no lights or sirens on) it appears that that MJ may have been already deceased by then.
 
Now this is funny like your telling a child s/he can't have candy anymore ''no, No, NO!'' lol
 
It was reported today by a family source that MJ was dead on arrival at UCLA i know this is a true fact because of who it came from.. Still Katherine should be asking for these if she wanted to file a wrongful death not Joe
 
Dangerous Incorporated said:
We dont know that as there is still dispute about that. Joe claims that MJ was already dead when he arrived at the UCLA and by the way the ambulance left MJ's compound (which was slow with no lights or sirens on) it appears that that MJ may have been already deceased by then.
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It doesn't matter they still have to call it. Paramedics and EMTs cannot call if someone is dead, that is the job of a physician. Even if he was DOA they still call it at the hospital. In any case I'm pretty sure the situation is covered under HIPAA otherwise everyone and their brother would be petitioning for those records already.
 
I'm sure Katherine is clever enough to wait until the case with Murray is solved after that she will probably sue on Michael's kids behalf as it's mostly done by a deceased's kids or on their behalf if the children are minors, like in this case. I do not remember Dee Dee's father or mother suing for wrongful death suits it was 3T doing so.
 
Reghead121 said:
It doesn't matter they still have to call it. Paramedics and EMTs cannot call if someone is dead, that is the job of a physician. Even if he was DOA they still call it at the hospital. In any case I'm pretty sure the situation is covered under HIPAA otherwise everyone and their brother would be petitioning for those records already.
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But no Dr did call it as no Dr has signed the death certificate. So for Joe to find out this info, he needs the medical records. The only person we have heard from was Jermaine. He is not in an official position to say so. A Dr. is.
 
Dangerous Incorporated said:
  • If Michael was dead when he arrived at UCLA then there is no physician-patient privilege.
  • No Dr wanted to sign MJs death certificate (as odd as that is). In fact we havent heard from any Dr's ever regarding MJ's death.
  • Why does the estate want to stop Joe digging through the medical records? Finding out how MJ died isnt going to allow Joe to get an allowance so why not let him have it?
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Joe Jackson's very FIRST course of action should be to get rid of Brian Oxman as his attorney. That's the first step, in my opinion. Oxman is a clown who cannot be trusted and he's also a media whore.

Oxman would be WAVING Michael's medical papers on the Nancy Grace show, 2 seconds after he obtained them.

Any attorney worth his salt would not have allowed Joe Jackson to ask for an allowance that includes money for his daughter and HER daughter, money for lavish hotels and airfare for vacations. They would have advised Joe to request money for his basic day-to-day needs. An attorney worth his salt would be advising Joe to wait until the conclusion of the criminal case before taking any further legal steps.

Whether Joe Jackson's request for Michael's medical records is for legitimate reasons or not, he will not be taken seriously with Brian Oxman as his attorney and mouth piece.
 
you need to seperate "Joe Jackson is Michael's father" from "what is acceptable by law".

When you think him as his father you think he is entitled to somethings but law says the only people can ask for such records are dependents, next of kin, spouse and representatives - this means legally Katherine, MJ's kids and the estate has a right to these records.

Furthermore it is wanted in a irrelevant way - when asking for monetary support. This is no different than for example somebody is filing a creditors claim saying " MJ did not pay me $10,000 for a job that I did and by the way while sending me the check please include a copy of the medical records".

Dangerous Incorporated said:
We dont know that as there is still dispute about that. Joe claims that MJ was already dead when he arrived at the UCLA and by the way the ambulance left MJ's compound (which was slow with no lights or sirens on) it appears that that MJ may have been already deceased by then.
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Doesn't matter what Joe claims , doesn't matter even if he is right. Check the death certificate - he is declared death 14.26 PM PST. In reality he might have died 2 hrs, 4 hrs , 10 hours etc earlier , from legal standpoint MJ was alive at 14.25 PM.

I also tend to believe that "If Michael was dead when he arrived at UCLA then there is no physician-patient privilege." may not be true - if this is the case then yes we would see all news media going to court for those records. I believe there must still be some sort of privacy law protecting those records from becoming public.
 
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Big Apple2 said:
Joe Jackson's very FIRST course of action should be to get rid of Brian Oxman as his attorney. That's the first step, in my opinion. Oxman is a clown who cannot be trusted and he's also a media whore.

Oxman would be WAVING Michael's medical papers on the Nancy Grace show, 2 seconds after he obtained them.

Any attorney worth his salt would not have allowed Joe Jackson to ask for an allowance that includes money for his daughter and HER daughter, money for lavish hotels and airfare for vacations. They would have advised Joe to request money for his basic day-to-day needs. An attorney worth his salt would be advising Joe to wait until the conclusion of the criminal case before taking any further legal steps.

Whether Joe Jackson's request for Michael's medical records is for legitimate reasons or not, he will not be taken seriously with Brian Oxman as his attorney and mouth piece.
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That may all be very well true. But the estate should not be stopping Joe from having MJs medical records. There will be nothing in medical records that gives Joe legal reasons for an allowance. The only thing in the medical records will show whether MJ was DOA, etc.
 
Dangerous Incorporated said:
But no Dr did call it as no Dr has signed the death certificate. So for Joe to find out this info, he needs the medical records. The only person we have heard from was Jermaine. He is not in an official position to say so. A Dr. is.
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I don't understand.... has someone actually seen the chart made by EMS and finished in the ED by physicians? People are saying no one called it... where's the proof of that? It is a hospital, someone called it after they wheeled him in and transfered him off the gourney and went through protocol. I don't care what tabloids and 'this person who knows this person' and all that says... it is standard scope of practice and it would have happened. I don't even know if the attending would sign the death cert... i thought that was the job of the coroner's office, i'd have to look. The coroners office and dept. of health, they did sign his death cert. From what I remember there is not even a place for the attending from ED to sign a person's death certificate....

I hate when everyone reads everything all over the net with no true understanding of how the EMS systems work and then believe stuff when it might not be true just because it made it into an article. It just makes everything more confusing that it already is....
 
Dangerous Incorporated said:
That may all be very well true. But the estate should not be stopping Joe from having MJs medical records. There will be nothing in medical records that gives Joe legal reasons for an allowance. The only thing in the medical records will show whether MJ was DOA, etc.
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You do realize that estate lawyers are not / cannot stop Joe from having the records right? Joe files a request with the court, the estate lawyers file a opposing request. It will ultimately be the judge who decides which is the right thing to do legally.
 
ivy said:
You do realize that estate lawyers are not / cannot stop Joe from having the records right? Joe files a request with the court, the estate lawyers file a opposing request. It will ultimately be the judge who decides which is the right thing to do legally.
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Yes I do. Its the fact that the estate is opposing it that has me raising my eyebrows. The estate should be onside of the family, and not being a hindrance.

The estate also tried to block Katherine having MJ's AEG contract. Why?

Like I said, Joe having the records does not allow him any money from MJ. Even if a wrongful death suit is filed, if the family won, the money would go to the estate not Joe.
 
Dangerous Incorporated said:
Like I said, Joe having the records does not allow him any money from MJ. Even if a wrongful death suit is filed, if the family won, the money would go to the estate not Joe.
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It allows him plenty of money, when his attorney, Brian Oxman, takes said medical papers on EVERY news program know to man!

Joe Jackson won't need an allowance, if Oxman get's his hands on those papers. Joe will be paid "hard-cold-cash," for allowing Oxman to reveal those medical papers on national television!

I'm not even sure if Joe Jackson knows which way is up and is only being lead by Oxman's words, i.e. "don't worry Joe, I'll take care of everything."
 
Dangerous Incorporated said:
But no Dr did call it as no Dr has signed the death certificate. So for Joe to find out this info, he needs the medical records. The only person we have heard from was Jermaine. He is not in an official position to say so. A Dr. is.
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Both of them not true.

check the certificate at the link below - see the part that says physicians certification and item 115 signature and title of the certifier - that is the doctor who announced him dead and who signed the death certificate.

http://www2.tbo.com/exposure/full/2009/07/07/5996_michael-jackson-death-certificate.jpg

Furthermore the family already have the actual death certificate (the names not redacted version) to arrange for the burial etc - so Joe should already know and be able see who announced him dead by looking to item 115.
 
ivy said:
Furthermore the family already have the actual death certificate (the names not redacted version) to arrange for the burial etc - so Joe should already know and be able see who announced him dead by looking to item 115.
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Exactly!

And the family most likely also already has an official copy of the coroner's report. Just because it wasn't released to the PUBLIC, doesn't mean the family is not in possession of a copy.
 
ivy said:
Both of them not true.

check the certificate at the link below - see the part that says physicians certification and item 115 signature and title of the certifier - that is the doctor who announced him dead and who signed the death certificate.

http://www2.tbo.com/exposure/full/2009/07/07/5996_michael-jackson-death-certificate.jpg

Furthermore the family already have the actual death certificate (the names not redacted version) to arrange for the burial etc - so Joe should already know and be able see who announced him dead by looking to item 115.
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Thanks for that! I hadn't seen that yet :)
 
If Michael was dead when he arrived at UCLA then there is no physician-patient privilege.
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What happened to the reports that Michael was dead already? - That is what a paramedic supposedly said. That was one story, the other story said he had a faint pulse on arrival.

And Remember Frank Dileo in the Raffles interview - Frank DiLeo said that when he arrived a nurse told him 'Michael was already gone but they would continue working on him until his mother arrived.' ?! Thats just weird.

And what about the whole thing about lividity?
 
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ivy said:
Both of them not true.

check the certificate at the link below - see the part that says physicians certification and item 115 signature and title of the certifier - that is the doctor who announced him dead and who signed the death certificate.

Furthermore the family already have the actual death certificate (the names not redacted version) to arrange for the burial etc - so Joe should already know and be able see who announced him dead by looking to item 115.
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The CORONER said no doctor signed the death certificate - so is that the coroner signature?

These are just some questions and answers from the press conference with the Coroner Spokeman Mr. Craig Harvey.

Full video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmdrNn3HZcY

Q:'Was there any controversy about the death certificate signature by the dr. '

A:'Uh.. no, the problem with the death certificate was that there was no doctor to sign the death certificate, which then requires that the coroner become involved because if there is no dr to sign the death certificate it falls to the coroner to do that function, so that was why we became involved in the first place. Had he been under the care of a doctor and the doctor had been willing to sign the death certificate the coroner would not have become involved.'

Q:'He went into a coma at the hospital, correct? His time of death wasn't pronounced until after that, after he was pronounced dead at the hospital'

A:'He was pronounced at the emergency room in the hospital, yes'

Q:'Were there any injection marks?'

A:'Errr, no, not that I'm aware of. I couldn't comment on it if there were'

Q:'Were you able to determine approximately the time of death?'

A:'The time of death is what was established by the hospital in the emergency room'

Q:'And would that change there be indication if he had actually died much prior to that time?'

A:'No. The time of death will remain what it was in the hospital emergency room pronounced by a physician'.

Q:'Is the family asking for a seperate autopsy?'

A:'Not to my knowledge, I'm not aware of any request.'

Q:'Have you been able to talk to the personal physician that you wanted to talk to?'

A:'We have not spoken to any physician associated to Mr. Jackson or any other member of the family.'
 
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^^
I can't be 100% sure about that. To me it seems like they wanted Murray to sign it and he refused so they say that therefore no doctor were to sign the certificate. If you see the item 115 it is a certification of time place and manner. I guess it could be signed by a witness too.
 
The facts are that Joe has no legal standing to request medical records and he has no legal standing to sue for wrongful death.

Katherine can request medical records and sue for wrongful death on behalf of the children, and she likely will once the criminal case is decided.

Of course, that way Joe won't get any money. So if justice and information is what he really cared about, you would think he'd be talking to Katherine, not trying to pursue his own agenda - whatever that may be.

And I agree with the person who said Oxman and Joe would be selling the medical records all over the place. I sure wouldn't put it past them. And the resulting tabloid crap heard could damage the criminal trial because of course they'd be talking crap on Michael and not Murray.

Oxman needs to sit down and shut up, and if Joe wants justice and not just a payoff, he needs to let those who are legally able to sue do it - in the right time and the right way.
 
ivy said:
Both of them not true.

check the certificate at the link below - see the part that says physicians certification and item 115 signature and title of the certifier - that is the doctor who announced him dead and who signed the death certificate.

http://www2.tbo.com/exposure/full/2009/07/07/5996_michael-jackson-death-certificate.jpg

Furthermore the family already have the actual death certificate (the names not redacted version) to arrange for the burial etc - so Joe should already know and be able see who announced him dead by looking to item 115.
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This is NOT the Dr's signature at all. Also the coroner which has been stated above me also confirmed this.

No Dr has ever said or signed anything regarding Michael's death.
 
I thought Latoya signed the death certificate? I can't remember where I heard that.
 
marebear said:
I thought Latoya signed the death certificate? I can't remember where I heard that.
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She signed that it was indeed MJ.

The medical records by the EMT's might have been posted on line but I am not sure. I don't think so as I don't remember seeing them.

The chart in the Emergency room has also never been posted. That is all covered under HIPPA laws.
 
There are several issues going on here. There is Murray's refusal to sign the death certificate, even though it's very likely Michael was long gone when paramedics were called. There is the issue of whether or not the family actually DID have a second autopsy done. We do not KNOW if they did or did not. They were "planning to," but there is no evidence that they actually did. If there is "evidence," someone please post that, so we can be certain? Then there is Joseph's track-record of opportunism. And there is much more.

Murray was the last doctor standing, and he already admitted already giving Michael the propofol. So, there is that court case to-come, or he will plead guilty, or try to plea-bargain. There is ALSO the possibility of a wrongful death suit. That would be against Murray (who has no money, apparently, but that might not matter in terms of justice and finding out facts?), but also against AEG, who by all accounts were the "employer" who contracted to pay Murray, and were Michael's "employers."

The point here (one of them), is, "was or was not Michael in shape to do the concerts?" If not (and autopsy results would hopefully show that? And NO, we have NOT seen them. . . . .). then AEG surely knew that. Was he or was he not carrying sufficient weight to do the concerts, and if not, WHY not? Hence, the possibility of a wrongful death suit against AEG.

With that said, this law-suit would not be Joe's to do. As an heir, this would be for Katherine to do. This is NOT over. . . . .
 
Dangerous Incorporated said:
We dont know that as there is still dispute about that. Joe claims that MJ was already dead when he arrived at the UCLA and by the way the ambulance left MJ's compound (which was slow with no lights or sirens on) it appears that that MJ may have been already deceased by then.
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joe was in vegas...your point?
 
Victoria83 said:
There are several issues going on here. There is Murray's refusal to sign the death certificate, even though it's very likely Michael was long gone when paramedics were called. There is the issue of whether or not the family actually DID have a second autopsy done. We do not KNOW if they did or did not. They were "planning to," but there is no evidence that they actually did. If there is "evidence," someone please post that, so we can be certain? Then there is Joseph's track-record of opportunism. And there is much more.

Murray was the last doctor standing, and he already admitted already giving Michael the propofol. So, there is that court case to-come, or he will plead guilty, or try to plea-bargain. There is ALSO the possibility of a wrongful death suit. That would be against Murray (who has no money, apparently, but that might not matter in terms of justice and finding out facts?), but also against AEG, who by all accounts were the "employer" who contracted to pay Murray, and were Michael's "employers."

The point here (one of them), is, "was or was not Michael in shape to do the concerts?" If not (and autopsy results would hopefully show that? And NO, we have NOT seen them. . . . .). then AEG surely knew that. Was he or was he not carrying sufficient weight to do the concerts, and if not, WHY not? Hence, the possibility of a wrongful death suit against AEG.

With that said, this law-suit would not be Joe's to do. As an heir, this would be for Katherine to do. This is NOT over. . . . .
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Would you consider the family NOT ASKING TO BE REIMBURSED for the autopsy proof enough?

I think it is .

They have asked the estate to reimbursed every dime they spent for MJ's funeral (including the clothes they wore)....It is fair to assume, since they did not bill the estate for the autopsy, there wasn't a second one.
 
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