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Michael - HIS family, the fans...the real deal

#1MJstan said:
I feel you Chichi, now cookout @Jamgirl's house.. I will bring the margaritas.. U know how to make 'tata salad@Jamgirl.. lmaooooo

Oh I am glad we can agree to disagree.. u guys are the cutest...
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Course. Made some last Sunday....with some purple kool aid! :cheeky:
 
Totally agreed! Michael may have had issues with his father, but those were his issues and not ours. I firmly believe that Michael didn't want us to consume ourselves with these issues, because as much as he may have had a problem with Joe that was still his Dad. Kinda like, "I can talk about my parents or family, but over my dead body nobody else can!" You made so many valid points and Joseph has been there in Michael's defense EVERY time needed... even every day of his trial appearances.
 
MJJChichi said:
this thread and forum needs a middle ground ... it aint strictly hate and love people. This aint big brother and we are not up for evicition. They are no have nots. Bring some reality into this and take a little from the other side and meet in the middle.
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Exactly. Nobody is right or wrong here. It's totally opinion. We can all agree to disagree. :)
 
jamgirl86 the post you with the quote from JohnLucas is 100% how I feel. I wish some of the people that think so negative of his family would actually try to know MJs family like they have gotten to know MJ over the years. I think Joe is just as misunderstood as Michael is. It's like people only see negative in Joe. All my times of hearing MJ speak of his father I always sensed that MJ wanted to have an affectionate relationship with his father just like he has with his mother. It's amazing how people judge Joe Jackson and don't try to understand him/know him. I only wish Joe would've been more affectionate with his son, because MJ wanted that. And I do remember the video where MJ was calling someone a "bear" "here's comes country" and called his own little brother an "ugly ape". :hysterical: I laughed so hard because I got to finally see MJ as his normal self. I've always notice when MJ's family speak of him they talk about him as a human being and as a Jackson, not as a music legend. People try to treat MJ like a science project and not as a human being(I've done it too). I personally believe MJ was as normal person as he could be given his celebrity status and not a weirdo.
We as fans also cause MJ problems sometimes, because MJ could never experience the world as a normal person because us fans would always crowd around him and watch him as if it was odd for Michael Jackson to go shopping. I feel sad knowing that before he passed I was one of those same fans that thought he was larger than life and would have acted like a psycho when I saw him. I wouldn't have approached him as another human being because in my mind Michael was above being human, he was an icon, an idol. So if us fans want to put the blame on MJs family and friends for the problems they have caused him, we need not to forget that we added to that ourselves.

ETA: Wow my post is long:scratch:, I doubt anyone will fully read it lol
 
MJJC Momma said:
:unsure: What was this thread about? I like green Kool aid :unsure:
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Omg, she just killed me with the green kool aid.. lmaoooooo.. u all don't know about mixing that grape + cherry= grerry.. bangin' that's all i can say, bangin'.. mouth looks like u got gangrene but it's bangin'..
also that invisible strawberry/kiwi.. omg, u will slap yo momma especially if it's made with the right amount of sugar.. *dancin'*

ok back on topic..
Tarah I liked your post.. I read all of it.. you forgot to add what kind of kool aid you like, that's the only thing u missed talking about.. lmaooo

Dead@Michaelyouareastud
 
tarah86 said:
We as fans also cause MJ problems sometimes, because MJ could never experience the world as a normal person because us fans would always crowd around him and watch him as if it was odd for Michael Jackson to go shopping. I feel sad knowing that before he passed I was one of those same fans that thought he was larger than life and would have acted like a psycho when I saw him. I wouldn't have approached him as another human being because in my mind Michael was above being human, he was an icon, an idol. So if us fans want to put the blame on MJs family and friends for the problems they have caused him, we need not to forget that we added to that ourselves.

ETA: Wow my post is long:scratch:, I doubt anyone will fully read it lol
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LOL!

I read it and I busted out laughing. Hubby was looking at me like wtf? You are so honest and so right.

I was just picturing in my head how Michael said he would get done up in full disguise just do to a park and sit down on a bench or go to the music store to pic up a few CD's. The man said NOBODY would treat him like he was normal once he went out as "himself".

He was forced to masquerade just to get a TASTE of what we all take for granted.

It must be hard being put on a pedestal your whole life and not being seen as normal.

Who the hell really wants people around them who never want to see them for who they really are and not what they represent?
 
I think there are alot of more to it than just Joe being the mean one in the family. Yes, they were probably all mean at some point or another, but this has to do with so much more than badmouthing one another.. Saying rude stuff to one another is not the same thing as a father whipping and beating their children with an iron cord or belts...

You still cannot compare a CHILD saying mean things to siblings and a FATHER who physically and mentally and emotionally abuses his children. Remember Michael would vomit from the sight of his father.. I think Joe did alot more than say mean things to him... And it dosnt matter who said what... Physical abuse is just not right.. It scarred Michael, wheither or not you say its right.
 
I remember hearing that Joe has become nicer and “softer” in the last few years, and I think even Michael mentioned that in some of his interviews. During the courtcase Joe stood strongly by Michael’s side and their relationship seemed better than before. While Joe certainly seems to have difficulty expressing his emotions, I do believe that Michael’s death has caused him a lot of pain. However, having said all this, I still hate it how people try to justify corporal punishment when asking for respect for Joe.

I myself work as a psychologist with children, and have therefore studied this topic quite a lot. It is such a common misunderstanding that some children “need” spanking because of them being “bad kids” or whatever. Yes, children can act cruelly and have enormous behavior problems, but spanking is NEVER a good way to solve these problems. Actually, if a child teases other children or has problems controlling his or her anger, a parent behaving the same way towards the child will only make things worse. Using a corporal punishment can certainly make children obey their parents out of fear of punishment. However, it doesn’t help them to understand why it was wrong what they did, and therefore they are likely to continue that kind of behavior outside the presence of their parents instead of developing an inner sense of morals and ethical values. This is why a corporal punishment is not a good way to stop your child from ending up in crimes. Actually, crime rates are much higher for adults who were beaten as kids than for those, who weren’t. Even mild forms of corporal punishment have been shown to be harmful. For example, children who are spanked, tend to interpret other children’s neutral gestures as aggressive more often than children who haven’t been spanked. And this, of course, can lead them to behave aggressively towards their peers.

No child is born bad or evil, although using a corporal punishment can make children feel they are that. Then, as adults they often talk defensively about their childhood: “I had a normal/happy childhood. Yes, I got spankings, but I always deserved it. I turned up okay”. And unfortunately, this kind of defensive attitude is usually a sign of them continuing their parents’ way of behavior towards their own families (spouses and/or children), and actually this seems to be the case with some of the Jackson brothers. So, it would be wrong to say that Michael is somehow extra sensitive or the only one affected by Joe’s behavior. Actually, he seems to be one of the few family members who have acknowledged that what Joe did was wrong, and therefore he was able to stop the cycle with his own children.

When it comes to Michael’s children, none of us as outsiders can be sure what the situation is with Joe nowadays. I know that I certainly don’t want him to RAISE them, but I would perhaps consider it a bit extreme to say that there shouldn’t be any contact at all with him, unless we find out that this is what Michael wanted before his death. After all, it is possible that Joe is different with his grandkids than he was with his own kids. Apparently even Katherine has defended spanking in her book, but I hope they both now see by watching Michael’s kids that spanking is absolutely not needed and will respect Michael’s wishes by solving problems in other ways. It makes me happy to know that while Michael left us too soon, he DID spend many good years as a loving dad to all his children. These years with Michael have taught his kids that they are unconditionally loved and that no one has a right to hurt them. So even, if they were to have spankings at some point in the future, they will instinctively know that it is not right and depending on the situation, maybe even defend themselves. They will not have to feel themselves bad or unworthy like many other kids, who have been born in an abusive environment and are not able to question things because of not knowing of anything better.
 
I just wanna give you a big hug! What an great contribution to this thread! :clap:
 
^^^
Very sensitive post.
I do not like the tendency to disrespect Joe Jackson either, because nobody has the right to judge someone they do not know.
But to defend physical punishment ( I don`t agree with the term "disipline" because to me spanking, hitting, slapping etc... is about punishment- lets call a spade a spade).

If anyone is interested, Alice Miller is a good read when it comes to these subjects. You can read her to test your own convictions, if you disagree with her or not.
One should always keep ones mind open to the possibility that what I now think and hold as true may be wrong...................

http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php

http://www.naturalchild.org/alice_miller/childhood_trauma.html
 
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jamgirl86 said:
JohnLucas made a post in a thread that I thought deserved alot of thought.

I agree 100% with it.

For those who just can't stand the existence of Joe Jackson in the Jackson family.
What do you want to do? Take him to prison? Have him cut out of the family? Have him isolated on a deserted island away from all humanity?

Remember, as much as we are fans & a "family" for Mike, his REAL family comes first. He's not leaving his kids to any of us. He's leaving them to his family (& one of his Motown family in Diana Ross).

There are some who are so into Michael & so admiring of his qualities that they grow a blind spot to anything outside of him. As if he doesn't have faults or errs significantly.

Jackie Jackson said that in Michael's young days "Michael was bad when he was little." He said it with a smile in a joking way but it was honest.

We all see Michael as an angel but at one time Michael was rambunctious. We see the remnant of that part of his personality when he was on stage. The crotch grab anyone?

And here's an example or two for those talking about Michael as nothing but an angel. Sister Janet's nickname is Dunk, right? Who do you think gave her that nickname? Michael. And you know what it was short for? Donkeybutt. He was talking about Janet's big butt as a youngster & even as an adult. Janet's future worry about her weight & looks were probably influenced by this nickname Michael used to call his sister. He used to call LaToya 'Moonface' because of her full round face. Marlon was called 'Liver Lips' by the brothers becuase of his lips. I remember seeing this 1975 home movie of The Jacksons spending Christmas on this ranch with Michael, Randy, & Jermaine all working the camera, you hear Michael refer to Randy as "that big ugly ape".

It looks to me that Michael could dish it out but couldn't take it. He teased his family just as much as they teased him. Exception was when he was on the receiving end, he couldn't take it. It affected his esteem & being in the spotlight added fuel to the fire. And Joe may have teased him to give him a taste of his own medicine. You don't know exactly how that family interacted. We weren't there.

Michael was the only one bold enough to challenge his father when he was young. He reminds me of this little cousin I just visited with today & this weekend over my family reunion. He's got a sassmouth & will sometimes slap you in the face when he's feeling himself & getting rowdy. You see the good in him too but he's just got too much energy & starts really acting up.

Some of y'all need to get acquainted with the animated movie BeBe's Kids to understand this. Some kids don't behave & spanking is not necessarily abuse. If you can discipline your kids without spanking, then good. It shouldn't be overused anyway. But if you think all kids listen to reason, you just haven't dealt with any highly spirited "bad @ss" kids.

Joe was right. He worked two jobs. If you don't think Katherine spanked those 9 'spirited' kids in a house no bigger than a 2 car garage, then you're fooling yourself. Now of course Joe's spankings were probably more fearsome as he had the role as disciplinarian. And I wouldn't deny that maybe he took it too far & went all James Evans from Good Times on them. One thing for sure those kids didn't backtalk or badmouth their parents like some kids nowadays do.

Joe's problem was that he didn't show affection. THAT was his problem. He looked like a monster because he didn't outwardly show the love he had for his kids like Katherine. He felt it was the man's role to be hard & stern. If Joe showed a little more affection there would not be an image of him being emotionally abusive. The stance on physical abuse depends on your cultural beliefs & generation of birth.

There are some who live by the Bible's saying "Spare the rod, spoil the child". Some accept this way of life & some don't. A spanking is not necessarily abuse but it's not mandatory for everyone. I got whooped with a switch & a belt too. I'm Black & from the South. I'm not emotionally traumatized or shy & withdrawn. It affects certain people differently. Some Blacks who received this type of discipline choose not to continue the tradition while others do.

In my grandma's day if you acted up, the whole neighborhood gave you spankings depending on who you offended & THEN you got spanked by your parents too. You act up at somebody's house, they would spank you send you home & then your parents will spank you AGAIN. I guarantee you there was a lot more respect for the parents then there is now because of that. Not for the spanking aspect but the community aspect of discipline.

Remember not to be so caught up in Michael to badmouth his family. That's in bad form. If you were truly his fans, you would understand his view on his family & accept it. I never liked when fans ran down family members like that. THOSE are the people who will back you up when nobody else will (a good one anyway). You don't have to agree with all of their decisions but respect Michael's stance on his family. That walling away some of his staff did is the same thing we do when we try to erect walls between Michael's kin & himself.

:yes:
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ya know what, not to disrespect the author of this very well written post....but..I am a Michael Jackson fan, and it is not my responsibility to judge weather or not Joe abused Michael or if Michael was a smart mouth kid or if he coudnt take what he dished out. I loved Michael unconditionally so what ever he did I dont really care if he was happy I was happy. I believe Michael when he said that Joe abused him he cannot make that up. so if he feels he was abused then that is what happened.
 
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I don't have anything good or bad to say about Joe Jackson, so I do as mama told me, "If you ain't got nuthin' good to say about people, don't say nuthin' at all" :lol: ....

Seriously, Whatever happened between Michael and his father, happened far in the past. I absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, believe that Michael and his brothers were physically abused by their father. I take Michael at his word on that. After hearing Michael detail (the private calls that were released) how Joe broke his ribs broke my heart. Michael spoke of the time he bravely stood up and told Joe "If you ever hit me again, I'll walk out and never perform". These conversations detailed a lot of angst and made me understand a whole lot more about MJ and Joe's relationship. These convos were used in court for MJ.

Michael goes on to detail how Joe would speak about Michael's skin tone (too black) and wide nose and made him feel ugly. He also said that instead of getting angry at the world, he (Michael) took it out on himself.

There is a long, tumultuous father/son relationship that none of us can pretend to know and/or understand. But one thing is clear.... Michael had issue with his father and that his father had a problem with abuse. We're not talking about a whoopin'/spankin. We're talking about throwing children in the basement and breaking ribs. That is beyond punishment, beyond spanking ... it's abuse.

With that said, Michael Jackson told Martin Bashit that he forgave his father, so I won't speak ill of Joe Jackson. However, I take Michael at his word about the abuse and I hope Michael made true peace with his father before he passed away.
 
Trish said:
I don't have anything good or bad to say about Joe Jackson, so I do as mama told me, "If you ain't got nuthin' good to say about people, don't say nuthin' at all" :lol: ....
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If you can't say anything nice about anybody... come sit by me. :lol:
 
I love how everyone said what they had to say in a respectful manner..

MJsSoulmate I understand what you are saying, especially since I work at a mental hospital for kids, and believe me the boys I work with have issues galore some stem from abuse all the way to sexual predators..

But your statement about justifying the spankings now that we are older, I am not saying the spankings I got made me who I am today, but I won't say they caused any problems in my life neither.. Of course as a kid you may not like getting punished but as you get older you can understand why you may have received the punishment. Be it spanking, timeout, no dessert, etc.. Hell working here in this mental hospital I have issues with the doctors doping these kids up, medicine doesn't cure everything.. I consider that a form of abuse, is it gonna stop the shrinks and med companies nope. But if the guardians (parent(s), or child services) sign off on giving there kids meds who am I to tell them they are wrong..

Joe AND Katherine Jackson raised their children how they saw fit. Mrs. Jackson has spoken about their disciplining their children plenty of times and I don't recall her ever saying she never wanted her husband to pop them..

PLEASE DON'T THINK I CONDONE KNOCKING THE SNOT OF YOUR KIDS. I DON'T HAVE ANY KIDS SO I DON'T TELL PPL HOW TO RAISE THEIRS.... Raise the lil boogers how you want, I just pray they don't end up at my job, cuz then I gotta deal with the problem some of the parents created..

I just wish we would not call Joe Jackson out his name, he never called us out of our names, and you may not like the way he raised but at least give him a lil respect at least for MJ's sake..:angel:

Kool aid for everyone:cheers::cheers:
 
tarah86 said:
jamgirl86 the post you with the quote from JohnLucas is 100% how I feel. I wish some of the people that think so negative of his family would actually try to know MJs family like they have gotten to know MJ over the years. I think Joe is just as misunderstood as Michael is. It's like people only see negative in Joe. All my times of hearing MJ speak of his father I always sensed that MJ wanted to have an affectionate relationship with his father just like he has with his mother. It's amazing how people judge Joe Jackson and don't try to understand him/know him. I only wish Joe would've been more affectionate with his son, because MJ wanted that. And I do remember the video where MJ was calling someone a "bear" "here's comes country" and called his own little brother an "ugly ape". :hysterical: I laughed so hard because I got to finally see MJ as his normal self. I've always notice when MJ's family speak of him they talk about him as a human being and as a Jackson, not as a music legend. People try to treat MJ like a science project and not as a human being(I've done it too). I personally believe MJ was as normal person as he could be given his celebrity status and not a weirdo.
We as fans also cause MJ problems sometimes, because MJ could never experience the world as a normal person because us fans would always crowd around him and watch him as if it was odd for Michael Jackson to go shopping. I feel sad knowing that before he passed I was one of those same fans that thought he was larger than life and would have acted like a psycho when I saw him. I wouldn't have approached him as another human being because in my mind Michael was above being human, he was an icon, an idol. So if us fans want to put the blame on MJs family and friends for the problems they have caused him, we need not to forget that we added to that ourselves.

ETA: Wow my post is long:scratch:, I doubt anyone will fully read it lol
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movingcoolcat said:
^^^
Very sensitive post.
I do not like the tendency to disrespect Joe Jackson either, because nobody has the right to judge someone they do not know.
But to defend physical punishment ( I don`t agree with the term "disipline" because to me spanking, hitting, slapping etc... is about punishment- lets call a spade a spade).

If anyone is interested, Alice Miller is a good read when it comes to these subjects. You can read her to test your own convictions, if you disagree with her or not.
One should always keep ones mind open to the possibility that what I now think and hold as true may be wrong...................

http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php

http://www.naturalchild.org/alice_miller/childhood_trauma.html
Click to expand...

Trish said:
I don't have anything good or bad to say about Joe Jackson, so I do as mama told me, "If you ain't got nuthin' good to say about people, don't say nuthin' at all" :lol: ....

Seriously, Whatever happened between Michael and his father, happened far in the past. I absolutely, without a shadow of a doubt, believe that Michael and his brothers were physically abused by their father. I take Michael at his word on that. After hearing Michael detail (the private calls that were released) how Joe broke his ribs broke my heart. Michael spoke of the time he bravely stood up and told Joe "If you ever hit me again, I'll walk out and never perform". These conversations detailed a lot of angst and made me understand a whole lot more about MJ and Joe's relationship. These convos were used in court for MJ.

Michael goes on to detail how Joe would speak about Michael's skin tone (too black) and wide nose and made him feel ugly. He also said that instead of getting angry at the world, he (Michael) took it out on himself.

There is a long, tumultuous father/son relationship that none of us can pretend to know and/or understand. But one thing is clear.... Michael had issue with his father and that his father had a problem with abuse. We're not talking about a whoopin'/spankin. We're talking about throwing children in the basement and breaking ribs. That is beyond punishment, beyond spanking ... it's abuse.

With that said, Michael Jackson told Martin Bashit that he forgave his father, so I won't speak ill of Joe Jackson. However, I take Michael at his word about the abuse and I hope Michael made true peace with his father before he passed away.
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#1MJstan said:
I love how everyone said what they had to say in a respectful manner..

MJsSoulmate I understand what you are saying, especially since I work at a mental hospital for kids, and believe me the boys I work with have issues galore some stem from abuse all the way to sexual predators..

But your statement about justifying the spankings now that we are older, I am not saying the spankings I got made me who I am today, but I won't say they caused any problems in my life neither.. Of course as a kid you may not like getting punished but as you get older you can understand why you may have received the punishment. Be it spanking, timeout, no dessert, etc.. Hell working here in this mental hospital I have issues with the doctors doping these kids up, medicine doesn't cure everything.. I consider that a form of abuse, is it gonna stop the shrinks and med companies nope. But if the guardians (parent(s), or child services) sign off on giving there kids meds who am I to tell them they are wrong..

Joe AND Katherine Jackson raised their children how they saw fit. Mrs. Jackson has spoken about their disciplining their children plenty of times and I don't recall her ever saying she never wanted her husband to pop them..

PLEASE DON'T THINK I CONDONE KNOCKING THE SNOT OF YOUR KIDS. I DON'T HAVE ANY KIDS SO I DON'T TELL PPL HOW TO RAISE THEIRS.... Raise the lil boogers how you want, I just pray they don't end up at my job, cuz then I gotta deal with the problem some of the parents created..

I just wish we would not call Joe Jackson out his name, he never called us out of our names, and you may not like the way he raised but at least give him a lil respect at least for MJ's sake..:angel:

Kool aid for everyone:cheers::cheers:
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Nice end...to a nice thread. :clapping:
 
Er, Michael was abused by Joe. End of. Stop making excusing for a man ABUSING his child.
 
I totally agree. Finally someone gave Joe a lil break. Yes, Michael was hurt at times but Joe wasn't a monster. So just quit it.

Joe messed up big time but his pride for Michael shows that he does love him.
 
I really don't know what to think of that article. What i do know is seeing Joe looking all happy and promoting new music from his label...RIGHT after his son's death...at the BET awards. That's what i saw, and that's what made me go 'WTF!!!!!!!' .

So tell me...why does he deserve so much respect from me?

I also did not forget that phonecall MJ had with a friend of his..where he talked about Joe and what he used
to say to him....like 'You look so black, you don't look like my child, your nose is so big'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y-eougm-uI&feature=related

come on now...read that....i ain't gonna glorify anything about this man. What michael is saying there....it's pretty obvious, they got more than a normal smack on the buttocks. MUCH worse.
 
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