lets talk abortion!

[Bl00dyphynix]

I saw the gay gene debate going on...and i thought discussing abortion would be interesting...especially from a pro-choice perspective, since I am pro-life. Im new, so i apologise if this was talked about already or if their is alread a topic on it..I dunno if this is allowed to be discussed or not or w/e...if it isnt, moderators, go ahead and remove it before i sy anyting, i want to say that i sympathize with women who have gone through it..I know it is a tough dicisionm and if any of you reading this have had an abortion before...I feel for you. Im not trying to get you down...

what I have to say is this: beyond weather the mother can provide for her child or not, beyond the child being a "mistake", beyond the power of choice, even beyond the small 2% of babies that have been reported to be aborted because of rape...is that really worth a life? is that one moment of amazing phisical intimacy with a person worth a life? is the small chance of your condom not working ever worth a life? or does life really not have any value anymore even to the extent that even those that arnt born yet just arnt worth all the hassle?

I dont think a poor child should ever be torn up, tortured(sometimes the mother is in extreme pain as well!)and thrown away just because it is too much of an inconvience. Moreover...didnt GOD let that happen for a reason? Here is a way that the Lord can change your life, He has given you a miracle...and you just tear "it" up and throw "it" away....how grateful humanity is to their creator.

Their is also the chance that a woman's body can be badly damaged if the "doctor" slips up..and if that happens, possibly ruining the chance of the woman to have a baby ever again. Much of the time when a baby is aborted, the woman feels DEEP guilt for what she did to her child. It can be up to years after it took place, and it can take a long time to heal.

These women usually get pressured by their family and friends, and by the guy that was involved, which leaves them feeling so worn down and frustrated and alone that they feel like their is no way out. Alot of them are confused, vulnerable and scared, which puts them in the perfect position for the so called money-hungry "doctors" to give them excuses, get inside their head, and ask them questions to win their favor:

"im not sure if this is what i really want." "well have you talked with your family about it?" "they really want me to do this." "...think of the burden it would be, and you cant even provide for it. why go through that hell? wouldnt this be better then putting it through a hard life? its not that bad..itll be over before you kno it..if your family wants this, i think you should do it. they only want whats best for you."

Lastly...have you forgotten adoption? Some people worry about the children either going from foster home to foster home, or in an orphanage for all of their childhood, or just find that a hassle as well. Yes im sure it would be a hassle, but i would think knowing the child would be allive would be worth the hassle of making sure the child would have a good life.

the power of choice should NEVER be placed higher then the value of a life. Period.

please share your thoughts!

 

[Nighty]

you have great points there, just have to say that the option of an abortion could be a great thing for some people.

"what I have to say is this: beyond weather the mother can provide for her child or not, beyond the child being a "mistake", beyond the power of choice, even beyond the small 2% of babies that have been reported to be aborted because of rape...is that really worth a life? is that one moment of amazing phisical intimacy with a person worth a life? "

lets make one thing clear, it's technicly not a life yet, just an embryo - and rape will never be " one moment of an amazing physical intimacy" (i know you didn't mean it to come across that way)...

So I'm totally in for the option to exist, cause we live in a too f****d up world..

Adoption is a wonderful thing, nothing I would personally do thou. have to much weird history with things like that in my life...


(sorry for coming across as an ass, I always do when I write...)

 

[mariemarie]

Personal choice and freedom.
If abortion will be unlegal, it will happen on the streets. Abortion is nothing new. it has been going on for centuries.

Those who are against abortion, I always hear talks about God and relegion and that we shouldn't decide who should live and who should not. The way I see it, it's not a baby. It's an embryo. And witnessing in my younger years seeing two friends going through abortions is not something they want or wish to do. It's painfull and it makes you feel horrible. But still, they have that choice to make. And I think that is very important.

Why should we judge what other people want to do? How do we know how they feel? It's too easy to say no to abortion because of God and maybe it makes you feel a little better about yourself too.

I think it is far more important to say No to guns and drugs that are killing people that allready have gotten the chance to live on this planet of ours.

Beeing an european an all, when I heard one of the republicans say that they are pro-life and pro-guns, it didn't make any sense to me at all.

I think it is important for girls and women to feel that they have that choice to make IF they ever make it to that level. Education and knowledge for preventing abortions to happen is far more important than the discussion on pro-life and pro-choice, imo.

 

[Telha]

Im TOTALLY against it... I just dont think that a baby or a soon-to-be baby should have to pay for other people's mistakes...
If a woman gets raped and doesnt want the baby, at least give it up for adoption....its a life that will be spared....

 

[Bl00dyphynix]

you have great points there, just have to say that the option of an abortion could be a great thing for some people.

"what I have to say is this: beyond weather the mother can provide for her child or not, beyond the child being a "mistake", beyond the power of choice, even beyond the small 2% of babies that have been reported to be aborted because of rape...is that really worth a life? is that one moment of amazing phisical intimacy with a person worth a life? "

lets make one thing clear, it's technicly not a life yet, just an embryo - and rape will never be " one moment of an amazing physical intimacy" (i know you didn't mean it to come across that way)...

So I'm totally in for the option to exist, cause we live in a too f****d up world..

Adoption is a wonderful thing, nothing I would personally do thou. have to much weird history with things like that in my life...


(sorry for coming across as an ass, I always do when I write...)

no its alright i love debating about abortion. i usually dont take offense to anything said, and i surely hope no one here does with what i say.

thats the anser i always get. its not allive yet. but it is. if its not really a human, its still a being. its still a creature. i will admit, i mainly come from a religious perspective. GOD let it happen for a reason. he didnt put that baby in the stomach(embro, fetus, w/e you want to call it)of the woman just to have it be thrown away..

 

[Nighty]

I come from a catholic upbringing, always had a belief in things higher than us. But I can't say God let it happen for a reason. God stopped dealing with us humans when we left paradise it seems like. If I choose to do something - let's say create a life with someone - that doesn't mean God has anything to do with it. He's not my personal life coach or anything.. And that doesn't mean God put that fetus in her stomach, that would be me in this scenario!


(sorry again for sounding like a prick, I just don't get how I never can come across as nice when I write, haha)

 

[browneyedgirl]

I'm definitely pro-choice. A woman has the right to choose what she wants to do, if the father of the baby agrees.

Don't get me wrong... my mother's a Muslim, my father's a Catholic, and I attended private Catholic schooling (

). It's been drilled into my head to be pro-life, so I understand their case. I just don't agree with it.

 

[Grand Master S]

I used to be pro-life until I realized what an awesome argument pro-choicers have for why abortion is okay. Then I went on a serial killing spree because it's my choice what I do with my body.

 

[Momma Shannon]

I used to be pro-life until I realized what an awesome argument pro-choicers have for why abortion is okay. Then I went on a serial killing spree because it's my choice what I do with my body.

Having an opinion is a wonderful thing. Expressing your opinion appropriately is something you should consider working on.

Ignorance aside - this debate has both good and bad points on both sides. It's hard to say yes I'm 100% in agreement with either side. Finding a compromise here is difficult because it involves the begining of life.

Abortion means the death of an unborn child and pro-life mean enduring pregnancy and all the medical risks involved with that, possible death and/or the possibility of major health issues with both the mother and child, raising and caring for unwanted child and/or adoption of said child and possibly the said mother if they too are underage.

Who's rights take precidence? The legal process is one thing totally. The social and religious ramifications are something totally different. Who has the right to decide which party deserves their rights protected? I simply am not qualified to make anyone else's decision - oddly enough no one truely is.

So...it's a hard topic.

 

[GiveintomeMJ]

well this is a very touchy subject but i think of all of the children currently waiting to be adopted... that are already here and alive... the poor care and abuse many of them suffer in the foster care system when they cannot be adopted (the rate of adoption for minority children is ATROCIOUS!) and I say the right to choose should remain...

adoption isn't a guarantee at a family for kids unless they're a white baby... and even that's not 100% especially if the baby is born addicted to drugs or the mother drank during pregnancy...

abortion isn't my choice but i would fight for my right regardless!

 

[Grand Master S]

Having an opinion is a wonderful thing. Expressing your opinion appropriately is something you should consider working on.

Ignorance aside

What exactly am I being ignorant of? Ignorant is when one doesn't know something. Ignorant is an ignorant choice of word in this instance, if you were in fact referring to me with that. Perhaps you meant "immature," which is fine by me. The way I worded my opinion above is how I often do so, because it's my personality. It's nothing that needs to be worked on, though if we're pointing out perceived personality flaws, I would say that some people should work on their sense of humor. Thanks for the advice, but I'll stick to how I said it.

Anyhow, I'm unsure from a legal standpoint, but from a personal standpoint, I am inclined to believe that unless the conception involved rape or abuse, getting an abortion and justifying it with "my choice!" is lame. Especially when all it essentially means in most cases is that you're not willing to be inconvenienced for 9 months and put your baby up for adoption.

 

[Soso Deaf]

no one can tell me what to do w/ my body....sure i can't terminate my preg. accordingto pro-lifers BUT i can still legally drink and do drugs and anything else i want and harm my child until it's born.

forcing a woman to keep a life inside of her when she doesn't want it is like russian roullette.....there will always be back alley abortions, there will always be rapes and incenstrous relationships, and there will always be women who cannot afford to take care of a child

sure adoption is great but to force a mother to make the ultimate choice isn't power any government should have.

i'll be damned if a MAN, cuz that's who writes all the laws, is gonna tell me what the hell i can do to my body

 

[Momma Shannon]

What exactly am I being ignorant of? Ignorant is when one doesn't know something. Ignorant is an ignorant choice of word in this instance, if you were in fact referring to me with that. Perhaps you meant "immature," which is fine by me. The way I worded my opinion above is how I often do so, because it's my personality. It's nothing that needs to be worked on, though if we're pointing out perceived personality flaws, I would say that some people should work on their sense of humor. Thanks for the advise, but I'll stick to how I said it.

Well, I certainly wasn't being humorous. And if your personality has flaws that is your issue. I don't have an opinion on what type of person you are but the comment was crude and if you prefer immature thats fine - I don't particularly care.

Anyhow, I'm unsure from a legal standpoint, but from a personal standpoint, I am inclined to believe that unless the conception involved rape or abuse, getting an abortion and justifying it with "my choice!" is lame. Especially when all it essentially means in most cases is that you're not willing to be inconvenienced for 9 months and put your baby up for adoption.

Now that is an intelligent response that can be commented on :yes: So you too are not 100% either direction. There are cases which can be acceptable and others that are simply unacceptable. So again who's qualified to make that decision?

 

[Grand Master S]

So you too are not 100% either direction. There are cases which can be acceptable and others that are simply unacceptable. So again who's qualified to make that decision?

Unfortunately, when we're talking about the law, it's too tricky to answer because of all the differing scenarios, so in essence I'm not. I stand by the personal belief that getting an abortion after consensual sex (counting child abuse and things of that nature as "non-consensual") is disgusting, though. To me, if it's alive, it's a human. By the time a lot of people go through with the abortion, the would-be baby is probably a lot closer to a baby than the parent(s) would like to believe.

 

[L.J]

As this topic can often get very volatile very easily (speaking from previous experiences on here).... I'm going to ask that everyone posts with a level of respect and common decency. Immature posts that will flame other members will be simply removed and if necessary infractions will be issued.

This is a very good debate topic and I don't want to see it closed from a few people being childish or offensive.

Simply put I'm taking a zero tolerance policy on flamming in debate threads.

Please do not reply to this post just read and heed.

Thankyou.

 

[Momma Shannon]

Well, I've gone through fertility to have a baby so I know in my heart life begins the second it is formed. There is no "oh it's not a baby til 3 months" stuff as far as I'm concerned. It's a tiny wiggling life. It wouldn't thrive and become a baby if not for those initial steps so I don't understand how anyone can easily discount them. Life is a begining, a middle and an end. Conception is that begining.

Circumstances surrounding conception are the main reasons for abortions. But there are those who find themselves or the life of the unborn child to be in jeopardy and must have abortions as well as those that choose to terminate on the grounds that a test has shown the unborn child is deficient in some way.

Personally I would die to give my child life and no test would deprive my child of the best future I could provide for them. I have compassion for those that are medically unable and must have an abortion but not those that choose to terminate because the child may or may not have a probability of any condition.

I also feel that anyone using abortion as a birthcontrol measure should be sterilized. To me that's simply immoral on a horribly selfish level. If you choose to engage in causal behaviorisms then you have to take responsibility for your actions. Does that mean raising a child you can't afford, don't want, neglect or abuse, no. But is adoption the answer when there are already so many children needing loving parents? Catch 22.

Can anyone honestly answer for a 12yr old girl who is pregnant with the baby of her sexually abusive father? Would you adopt the 12 yr old and her infant? Which child is to be protected? Do you save the girl who has suffered so much already? Do you force her to conceive her father's child? Do you save the unborn child? Are you personally able and ready to take on the demands placed here? I don't have the ability to answer.

The only recourse I can even muster is education and moral values. Today's society is lacking in both. Laws forcing people won't educated them. And the child without instilled values looks for love and attention in all the wrong ways. This is our responsibility as a society and one that we do have the ability to answer for. Teaching our children. Education is always key.

 

[FinalEyes]

My view is that there always needs to be options. If something goes wrong, would you want to bring a child into this world who you couldn't care for, and who would probably die of starvation or lack of love? Or would you decide to end a life so that you wouldn't ruin it and make it miserable?

I understand why people get so upset over this topic, because it is murder. But on the other hand, isn't it murder of the soul to bring a child into the world that you can't properly raise, and who will eventually die or end up in foster care, anyway? That seems much more cruel to me.

 

[Mechi]

haven't changed my stand...
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41130

 

[Autumn II]

Please, everyone, try to be respectful of the views of others.

Here is another factor. This is far from an ideal world, but one thing in particular that seems to be lacking is the ability to learn from the past. . .from history. In an ideal world there would be no abortions and no capitol punishment. .. . . However, in the past in the U.S. when abortion was illegal, it was the POOR who suffered. A rich woman could always go to another country to get an abortion. What actually happened was back-room abortions in unsterile circumstances. I have had a child. I have never had an abortion. But, having HAD a child I understand the physical and emotional changes and the risks. A thirteen year-old rape victim coming from a wealthy family could have an abortion overseas when abortions were illegal in the United States. Not so with a young woman born into poverty. THIS is the historical truth in this country. Look it up, anyone, to verify. It would be the truth again, if abortion were criminalized again. Issues that seem clear-cut, rarely are.

To me the key is education, responsibility, and available birth-control. I hope people make responsible choices, and everyone who does not think a woman should have a right to choose -- and hopefully make an intelligent, compassionate choice -- should have at least one adopted child, preferably an older, "unadoptable" child. That is my opinion, and I respect the right of others to have alternate viewpoints.

Victoria

 

[Grand Master S]

But on the other hand, isn't it murder of the soul to bring a child into the world that you can't properly raise, and who will eventually die or end up in foster care, anyway? That seems much more cruel to me.

I'm guessing the majority of children in foster care prefer that over not existing if they somehow had the choice, even if their situation isn't perfect. The important part is that they have a chance. The line of reasoning you mentioned would be more often than not used to make someone feel better about their decision; a decision that is in all likelihood driven by their own wants and needs, with the pain lessened by thinking, "well it's best for the baby too." Which, if not so sad, would be comical.

But I'm mostly arguing this from a "moral" standpoint over a legal one.

 

[Autumn II]

I'm guessing the majority of children in foster care prefer that over not existing if they somehow had the choice, even if their situation isn't perfect. The important part is that they have a chance. The line of reasoning you mentioned would be more often than not used to make someone feel better about their decision; a decision that is in all likelihood driven by their own wants and needs, with the pain lessened by thinking, "well it's best for the baby too." Which, if not so sad, would be comical.

But I'm mostly arguing this from a "moral" standpoint over a legal one.

See my post, above, about the history of criminalized abortion. It then becomes a social class issue as well. "Legal is related to "moral" and often can't be separated. It is not simple. It is NOT moral to force a thirteen year-old rape victim to carry and give birth to a child. If abortion were illegal, only the poor would face this and THAT is a moral issue. I have never known anyone who had an abortion based on her "wants and needs." One person I know had a fetus that was terribly malformed and would have died shortly after birth. She had an abortion, and grieved terribly about it. In that case, yes, it WAS best for the baby. There are kids maxing out of the foster-care system, without ever having had a family. Is it better to be alive, instead of never born? I think some would choose to have never been born at all. The system can be that brutal.

I don't know ANYONE who is "pro-abortion." Just pro having the right to make choices that are difficult. Every situation is different.

Every family that believes that women should not have the right to choose, should adopt a child out of the foster care system. That is what I think, and I respect the right of others to think differently.

Victoria

 

[L.J]

haven't changed my stand...
http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41130

I just read that entire archived thread!! Damn we made some great points back then :lol:

and I'm interested to see that my stance hasn't changed either.


I'm still of the opinion and if I can borrow the words of one of our members to say this... "education is the key"
The amount of people who are so uneducated about sex is astounding... and usually with that lack of education comes the problems... and sadly they're often avoidable problems.

At the risk of looking incredibly lazy... I'mma repost my post from the earlier thread...



At the end of the day in my view... it's a question of ethics, making abortion illegal again would result a rise in women dying or severly injuring themselves by underground abortions.

I don't think it's right to remove choice. we are after all free thinking individuals and I'm fairly sure that the majority of women who have had an abortion, weighed up every option and knew full well the seriousness of their action.

I think the best way to compare whether it's a fair/just thing to allow to happen is to compare countries with legal abortion with those countries that consider abortion illegal.

For example: China has 44 million missing women, the reasons behind these missing women and young girls has been largely blamed upon the one child law. Females after hearing that their soon to be born child is not a male (the preferred of the gender due to the fact that they can carry the name)... are either aborted... or killed shortly after birth. This often results in the woman either dying as well for having an unsave procedure in an unsafe environment (these are performed underground as it is illegal). I remember reading about the various unsafe practices used to abort unwanted female unborns, as well as the methodical ways to kill of new born girls to make them look like accidents... one involving the use of holding a fan over a child crushing their chances of taking normal breaths.

Since 1977, there have been nearly 80,000 acts of violence or disruption at abortion clinics in North America these actions of violence include everything from doctors being stalked and abused (labeled doctors of death), women being harassed, abused, spat at as they try to enter or leave a clinic. There have also been the occasional murders of docotrs, and clients as well as shootings and other destructive acts.


I think at the end of the day it's important to realise that everyone has different points of view on the matter but exclusion as opposed to quality control is not the answer. So in my opinon it's far better to have it as a legal action which is well monitored by professionals who know what they're doing. as opposed to making it illegal and leaving desperate people to seek desperate alternativies.

 

[Autumn II]

Thanks, L.J. Your post is identical to my thoughts on it. (see my post above, about social class issues and criminalization of abortion.)

Education is the key, and availability of birth-control

Vic

 

[Grand Master S]

See my post, above, about the history of criminalized abortion. It then becomes a social class issue as well. "Legal is related to "moral" and often can't be separated. It is not simple. It is NOT moral to force a thirteen year-old rape victim to carry and give birth to a child. If abortion were illegal, only the poor would face this and THAT is a moral issue. I have never known anyone who had an abortion based on her "wants and needs." One person I know had a fetus that was terribly malformed and would have died shortly after birth. She had an abortion, and grieved terribly about it. In that case, yes, it WAS best for the baby. There are kids maxing out of the foster-care system, without ever having had a family. Is it better to be alive, instead of never born? I think some would choose to have never been born at all. The system can be that brutal.

I don't know ANYONE who is "pro-abortion." Just pro having the right to make choices that are difficult. Every situation is different.

In my earlier posts I mentioned that I wasn't referring to special circumstances like rape or abuse. I didn't specifically mention a situation like the one you brought up with the malformed fetus, but that would be another one. And you can also include if the pregnancy is going to be fatal to the mother. And probably some other stuff I'm forgetting. That's why it gets tricky with the law, because you can't say, "It's all right to get an abortion if _______ or ______ or _______ or ________, but otherwise no."

That's why I used words like "moral" or "personal belief", and was talking specifically about when the choice to get an abortion comes down to fixing a mistake and/or convenience to your own life. That I will always testify is sickening. And while I respect someone's legal right to do it, I don't respect the decision itself, nor am I ever going to or need to. If the option of adoption is on the table, it should be taken advantage of.

Every family that believes that women should not have the right to choose, should adopt a child out of the foster care system. That is what I think, and I respect the right of others to think differently.

So unless a family can afford to adopt a child, they should not have a certain opinion on the subject.

I'm not sure where this idea that being under foster care is worse than not existing comes from. I know right about now someone is on the verge of "educating" me on horror stories about foster homes, but I'm again wondering if the majority of children there would prefer not living.

I'm thinking that the hypothetical child has a much better chance of living a worthwhile life in that situation over never being born in the first place.

 

[Autumn II]

Actually, I know adults who were children in the foster care system, and part of my work has been with disadvantaged children. Fetal alcohol syndrome is quite terrible, and permanent. Being born addicted to heroine is hellish, I'm sure.

For those who believe in a divinity. . . well, my personal opinion is that souls go on, and no one is ever truly lost. That is what I think, and others may think differently.

Vic

 

[Grand Master S]

Actually, I know adults who were children in the foster care system, and part of my work has been with disadvantaged children. Fetal alcohol syndrome is quite terrible, and permanent. Being born addicted to heroine is hellish, I'm sure.

And I'm glad they're all alive regardless. Hopefully most or all of them feel the same way.

 

[L.J]

See my post, above, about the history of criminalized abortion. It then becomes a social class issue as well. "Legal is related to "moral" and often can't be separated. It is not simple. It is NOT moral to force a thirteen year-old rape victim to carry and give birth to a child. If abortion were illegal, only the poor would face this and THAT is a moral issue. I have never known anyone who had an abortion based on her "wants and needs." One person I know had a fetus that was terribly malformed and would have died shortly after birth. She had an abortion, and grieved terribly about it. In that case, yes, it WAS best for the baby. There are kids maxing out of the foster-care system, without ever having had a family. Is it better to be alive, instead of never born? I think some would choose to have never been born at all. The system can be that brutal.

I don't know ANYONE who is "pro-abortion." Just pro having the right to make choices that are difficult. Every situation is different.

Every family that believes that women should not have the right to choose, should adopt a child out of the foster care system. That is what I think, and I respect the right of others to think differently.

Victoria

I also know a friend from highschool who had that same ordeal, it was a heartbreaking decision for her because even though she hadn't planned on getting pregnant at the time she was actually really getting excited about the prospects of being a young mum and even though she didn't have any money or her own place she was going to try and see what happened... the child was diagnosed with severe cerebral palsy and a few other conditions and wasn't given a very good chance.
She had to make the agonosing decision to abort the fetus and then go through all the trauma that came after it.

What I discovered was that a lot of women then go into a serious level of depression or a guilt phase and then rush out to make amends by trying to get pregnant again to make up for their earlier mistake.... women are made to feel guilty about their experience (even though it is not their fault that the child was going to be severely handicapped for life).

I've seen people carry those malformed babies to term, only to witness them be placed in the system because the parents are unable to provide the care required to keep that child alive, this becomes a burden on society, a burden on the hospitals (which in most places are already overburdened) a burden on the parents (the feelings of guilt at not being able to provide and care for their ill child), a burden for their extended family and friends and most importantly a burden for the one who was born and either has no full comprehension of what is going on around it, or is living in pain consistently.



I would imagine it would be a different world if it were men who had to be the ones who were pregnant, cause no way in hell they would be willing to carry a child for 9 months and deal with that emotional crap when they knew they didn't want the child to begin with.


I'm a little tired of people crying murder for something that has yet to form a nervous system to allow it the knowledge that it is becoming a living entity.... we let our children go to war over lies and we're trained not to blink when they are killed at war. We are becoming a society that doesn't know how to use words and their meanings correctly.

as for the life at conception points that are always raised... that is an emotional response (yet note that religion has crept in and tied a spiritual connection with it) from a woman's body ... a response that occurs after they receive the knowledge of a physical change within their system.... it's a survival instinct so that the woman knows she needs to start taking steps to ensure that all goes to plan biologically.


Ok I type too much :bugeyed

 

[Autumn II]

And I'm glad they're all alive regardless. Hopefully most or all of them feel the same way.

At least some, do NOT feel the same way, actually. That is the point I'm trying to make here. The foster care system is brutal and some -- many -- feel that they have no futures, despite adult interventions at this late stage.

And here is where we agree to disagree. . and that's ok.

Vic

 

[Grand Master S]

At least some, do NOT feel the same way, actually.

I already realized that, which is why I said "majority." I only mentioned the possibility of "all" of them when referring specifically to the ones you personally knew. I'm not deluded enough to think that every foster kid is happy to be alive, when there are kids raised in "normal" environments who are suicidal or wish they weren't born.

My main point is that the child having the chance and opportunity of leading a worthwhile existence is worth it, even if he or she doesn't have the guarantee. Hell, none of us have a guarantee to an extent, though I'm not arguing it's harder on them than most.

I don't think we actually disagree on as much as you think we do, but fair enough.

 

[L.J]

Thanks, L.J. Your post is identical to my thoughts on it. (see my post above, about social class issues and criminalization of abortion.)

Education is the key, and availability of birth-control

Vic

Now see that's where I have a problem... I work in a top notch school... but alas... it's a catholic school... and I teach Health.... I am restricted to only teaching students to abstain from sex.... yeah right like horny 16 year olds are going to follow my advice there.

It's incredibly hard because they always ask me about contraception and how to have sex safely and I have to say to them to abstain...as I worry about a variety of things... 1.) my employment status 2.) angry parents ringing me and telling me I have no right to talk about contraception "I specifically enrolled my child into a catholic school so that we wouldn't have to worry about them learning about these immoral things!" ... you know cause ignorance is such an improvement in one's education and ablity to be able to reason on their own....
these parents are usually in the catergory of "contradictory" .... "MY child is brilliant and just sooo smart..... don't you dare teach my child about these things because they shouldn't be informed" (ok so are you telling me your child is smart? or your child is stupid and can't make a decision on their own?) :lol:


The truth being that most people believe in the myth that if you teach children about contraception and safe sex... then they'll definately want to give it a go! LOL Too often teenagers are treated like idiots when they really do realise that there are results from any actions they may take LOL.
My students don't want to know so that they can go out and practice... they want to know so that when they right time comes along that they don't have to say "wait a minute I'm not educated on this matter let me read some textbooks and get back to you..." :lol:


and I went slightly off-topic.... but I can't teach anything about abortion at school either... which sucks ass majorly... girls (and boys) should be educated on how to make BIG decisions in life even if they never have to make a big decision in their whole life.