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Lets Discuss BAD concerts footage and what may have been shot on film ?

Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

mj_brainiac said:
I see a big difference between the The Way You Make Me Feel clip and the 16th. Not to mention, the 15th was a more complete show with the full '88 setlist
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I see a difference, but not to such a degree that I would say, "Oh my god, this show is in better quality." The clip from the 15th wasn't even remastered -- the estate just threw it on there last minute as a bonus. And the DVD was only missing ONE song, which isn't a big deal. I still prefer the 16th.

And regarding an interview with John Branca, that would be great. The only gripe is that we probably wouldn't get any answers. I'm sure he wouldn't tell us the exact number of songs they have, nor would he give a detailed explination of the goings around the Cascio recordings. He would probably just give us some back information and maybe a few hints at what we should be expecting next. But I digress. I would love to ask him a few questions. I've looked high and low for contact information to set up a personal interview for For All Time (my book) to no luck.
 
Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

mj_brainiac said:
Since they have umatics for other shows, they could still do a blu ray release. It doesn't have the July 16 show. Heck, they could've done the July 15 show
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U-matic tapes can't be HD. They need film reels for that.
 
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Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

Umatics aren't much better than VHS. TWYMMF proved that
 
Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

dam2040 said:
Umatics aren't much better than VHS. TWYMMF proved that
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I think this is the quality of most Umatic tapes:

That is on the official VEVO Youtube channel.
 
Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

Galactus123 said:
I think this is the quality of most Umatic tapes:

That is on the official VEVO Youtube channel.
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Umatic is TWYMMF quality. This is shot on tape or some other media. Not film though.
 
Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

dam2040 said:
Umatic quality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24KLSEDkhL8

Maybe this is umatic then? We know Bucharest was restored for release in 2005 and that is very good quality, possibly u-matic but possibly not.
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The tape used in Bucharest may not be U-matic. They used some great quality format for 1989 L.A. concerts:


That is amazing quality for old tape. Rudolf said in one post that he thinks it is from Betamax tape.
 
Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

They won't make TWYMMF looks better than the entire concert, shamone!
We all know umatic has higher quality.
 
Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

octavio001331 said:
They won't make TWYMMF looks better than the entire concert, shamone!
We all know umatic has higher quality.
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TWYMMF isn't umatic though
 
Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

Galactus123 said:
The tape used in Bucharest may not be U-matic. They used some great quality format for 1989 L.A. concerts:


That is amazing quality for old tape. Rudolf said in one post that he thinks it is from Betamax tape.
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Yeah I don't think both Bucharest and LA are on umatic. Simply because umatic can't be of such quality. I guess best umatic can be is how TWYMMF looks from bonus and the brief kiss snippet from MSG in Spike Lee's documentary.
 
Re: Bad Tour to get cinema screen in London!

Lounis' Rome/Tokyo videos look better than Wembley dvd.

And that's at least 3 to 4 generations AFTER the fact (u-matic --> promo tape dub --> (possible 2nd dub) --> ripped/converted digitally to what we know of today).

I still don't believe that they don't have any other multi track recordings of a show they have on a u-matic. Nonsense, I tell you! :mad:

---

Anyway, back to what I said about Yokohama quality (not over the fact of 1st or 2nd leg), I'm watching the DVD again (haven't in a while. And whenever I would, it would be clips on YT), but it really is SUCH a good copy of the show.

The estate, arguably, should have released both shows in the same package.
1 professionally shot show of an early incarnation of the tour and a "rare, personal copy" of his Wembley show.

And yes, everyone and their sister has Yokohama by now, but it was never officially released (and strangely only officially aired in Japan).


It's too bad MJ didn't take a tv offer like the BBC/HBO one for Dangerous...

/venting again
 
Re: Bad Tour to get cinema screen in London!

AtlasAir said:
I still don't believe that they don't have any other multi track recordings of a show they have on a u-matic. Nonsense, I tell you! :mad:
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They should have multitracks for some other concerts too at least. Man in the Mirror in Moonwalker has great multitrack audio.
 
Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

Galactus123 said:
The tape used in Bucharest may not be U-matic. They used some great quality format for 1989 L.A. concerts:


That is amazing quality for old tape. Rudolf said in one post that he thinks it is from Betamax tape.
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Does the Estate have the full L.A show?
 
enough of all this Umatic & Betamax, it's driving me crazy. digitise film reels from any show of the BAD Tour Second leg, even if it's L.A 89' Jan 16th-27th, add Dirty Diana from another show as a bonus. Many possibilities, and with the changing times, we need better quality than the available 480p, 576i for Wembley and Bucharest. I hope we see a full second leg show on Blu-Ray in the next 7 years.
 
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Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

Rudolf said:
Yeah I don't think both Bucharest and LA are on umatic. Simply because umatic can't be of such quality. I guess best umatic can be is how TWYMMF looks from bonus and the brief kiss snippet from MSG in Spike Lee's documentary.
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No No No.

Any and every Bad tour video you have ever seen (jumbo tron feeds) were originally from a U-Matic master copy of the show (or an equivalent high quality tape that is not VHS).
Think of all those TV clips, Lounis promo tapes, and LA 89 footage we have seen. They look great (or rather, you could tell the master copy would look a lot better). There are plenty of examples that look considerably better than the TWYMMF clip.

I don't know WHAT they did with TWYMMF from Wembley DVD, but looks like they didn't want it to look too much greater than the main feature. It's not from a VHS because it would look just like the Wembley feature, otherwise.

(Why would an old vhs copy be used over a "u-matic" from the 15th, which they have the multi tracks for? Princess Diana, for one..)

And the MSG clip in Bad 25 was zoomed in to fill the 16:9/1080p frame to fill up the screen. So already, it's losing some quality from that.

The LA 89 video from the ONE dvd is probably how all master copies look when transferred right.

And Bucharest was filmed with the intention of making a tv concert, so each camera was probably recording onto a high quality tape (whatever the standard was at the time).


tumblr_inline_mi365lPjte1qz4rgp.gif
 
it's 2013. DVDs are dying. bring on Blu ray.
 
lolno.
DVD's aren't dying. Physical media as a whole are dying.
 
I have honestly no idea if TWYMMF was from the umatic or not. It's a speculation.

I want to quote something "The total potential lines of horizontal resolution for standard U-matic is 280 lines per picture height. Vertical resolution is the NTSC standard of 486 visible scan lines."

How can any umatic tape look nearly as good and detailed as for example LA if it has 280 lines? Plus all the degradation over time.

It's this big -




If we are talking about the BVU-SP format it has 330 lines. That isn't that much better anyway.

And TBH all Dangerous tour stuff and later stuff look just as HQ as Bucharest when taken from master. Even Bucharest has parts from Munich and Wembley in that look the same apart from colours. Bucharest's quality means nothing because there was nothing special or exceptional about the quality of the tape it was captured on. All shows they shot in 90s look like that when taken from master.
 
Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

AtlasAir, in case you are right, I stand corrected.

But until then you'll have to write a bit more to convince me :D I'm stubborn as hell really.
 
At what part? My last few posts are all kind of garbled into one clump of thoughts right now.
 
AtlasAir said:
At what part? My last few posts are all kind of garbled into one clump of thoughts right now.
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Well, that umatic is basically a master tape and can be of good quality.

I just don't think so. But I don't claim to be an expert lol.
We're having an interesting discussion. Haven't had one for a while now.
 
I'm simply referring to the fact that any and every bad tour clip you have seen out there was sourced from a u-matic or a similar high quality tape from that time.
It's irrelvenet how many lines of resulution these things have. We have all seen what they look like from various sources.

It's possible the 89 shows were recorded to another type of tape, but I already covered that possibility in the previous sentence (as to why 89 looks really good).

But pull up any 88 clip. They look pretty damn good (and in most cases are over several generations of quality degradation.)
Master copy ---> promo tape furnished for TV station ---> tv broadcast ---> VCR or Betamax taped by fan from TV in 80s ---> digitized for online/YT viewing.

And in the case of those Lounis tapes: master copy ---> promo tape furnished for TV station ---> possible 2nd dub, maybe not ----> collector transfers digitizes it for computer/web.

And what I mean by good is, it would look better knowing that it was from the master copy.

TWYMMF looks like a different kind of source. Arguably, it looks better than Wembley main feature, but as I said before, they didn't make it look as pretty (or even degraded the video).


Am I making sense? Let me know. I'm a little sleepy right now.
 
AtlasAir said:
I'm simply referring to the fact that any and every bad tour clip you have seen out there was sourced from a u-matic or a similar high quality tape from that time.
It's irrelvenet how many lines of resulution these things have. We have all seen what they look like from various sources.

It's possible the 89 shows were recorded to another type of tape, but I already covered that possibility in the previous sentence (as to why 89 looks really good).

But pull up any 88 clip. They look pretty damn good (and in most cases are over several generations of quality degradation.)
Master copy ---> promo tape furnished for TV station ---> tv broadcast ---> VCR or Betamax taped by fan from TV in 80s ---> digitized for online/YT viewing.

And in the case of those Lounis tapes: master copy ---> promo tape furnished for TV station ---> possible 2nd dub, maybe not ----> collector transfers digitizes it for computer/web.

And what I mean by good is, it would look better knowing that it was from the master copy.

TWYMMF looks like a different kind of source. Arguably, it looks better than Wembley main feature, but as I said before, they didn't make it look as pretty (or even degraded the video).


Am I making sense? Let me know. I'm a little sleepy right now.
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You do make sense. But I guess we will never know anyway for a fact. It's all speculation.

And I'm about to go to bed anyway. Sleepy as well. It's 1:18 AM already.
 
Betamax and U-Matic can be restored for digital download at cheap price, only. every existing film
reel should be scanned at 4k and partially Restored (colours only) grain as in detail is my addiction in film. we need these high resolution productions. to be preserved forever.
 
They really need to do a iTunes or a self contained store on their own site for stuff like that.
Hence, the collectors label we're all fantasizing about.
 
Zakk said:
Betamax and U-Matic can be restored for digital download at cheap price, only. every existing film
reel should be scanned at 4k and partially Restored (colours only) grain as in detail is my addiction in film. we need these high resolution productions. to be preserved forever.
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What you said about restoring and releasing the U-Matic's is a bad idea. While I haven't really followed the discussion of the quality of U-matics in this thread, they don't exactly have a high resolution ("The total potential lines of horizontal resolution for standard U-matic is 280 lines per picture height. Vertical resolution is the NTSC standard of 486 visible scan lines."). No point flooding the market with low quality concerts. Storing full 2-hour long movies and having them available to download can actually be rather expensive and, with the low quality, there wouldn't be much demand for them. Plus, you never want to flood a market with products like this. Personally, I believe the only other Bad tour they should release is the best one they can source from film reels.

In regards to your second point, no doubt that if the Estate found any film reel that would be of any use, they would digitalise it (and I think I recall discussing with you, maybe, like a week or two ago that the Estate had been digitalising much of Michael's archive for a while now), so I don't think we need to worry too much about this :)

They should leave the grain alone. Adding on digital grain is a terrible idea and removing the grain too much can make the image look flat.
 
Here's what I think is the issue and confusion.
1. The estate were only responsible for restoring the quality of The main feature (i.e Wembley 16th)
2. TWYMMF was from U-Matic but consider 2 things ( 1. Tapes degrade 2. It could be a copy of the master)
3. BAD TOUR L.A AND Dirty Diana NY were recorded on a BETA Tape, MUCH Higher Quality than VHS, and Umatic.
4.Dangerous Tour was ALSO recorded on BETA TAPE. Why Beta? Because the 80s/90s television standard for recording was on the sony betacam.
(As speculated) Bad Tour L.A was apparently planned for release back in the day(so I have heard) so this could be the reason it was recorded on the highest possible tape standard of the time.
U-Matic was the Tape standard for the 70s. I really don't know why Michael or his production team went cheap with the choice of the outdated tape format.
So basically, Dangerous Tour , Bad Tour L.A, History Tour were recorded on a higher standard tape. As said by Rudolf this is still speculation. This is my educated estimate lol :)
I hope this clears the confusion though...
 
Dirty Diana was sourced from whatever kind of tapes they were using at the time for shows in general.

They probably sent that tape out to tv stations to play during the time of the tour for more promo (which is why MTV will sometimes play Kansas City, Houston, and NY material).
 
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