Lets Discuss BAD concerts footage and what may have been shot on film ?

MJBT · Jul 25, 2013

Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

If they do decide to release another concert from the umatic tapes they have(wishfull thinking I know but dare to dream) Madison Square Garden gets my vote

AlwaysThere · Jul 25, 2013

Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

mj_brainiac said:
I think GoFlying posted some time ago that the estate DID find the umatic or reels for the Wembley show?

Since they have umatics for other shows, they could still do a blu ray release. It doesn't have the July 16 show. Heck, they could've done the July 15 show (I'm still trying to figure out why they used the July 16 show when they had the July 15 show in better quality along with the multitracks)

People aren't understanding. U matic tapes are practically the same quality as VHS tapes. Look at the performance of TWYMMF from the July 15 show. Not that much of a difference. Had they given us the 15 it would be SLIGHTLY better quality than the 16. Barely noticable.

analogue · Jul 25, 2013

Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

To be honest i would have preferred the 15th. Mainly because it has The Way You Make Me Feel in the setlist so the show feels more complete. Why did they choose the 16th? Is it because that was the one they had with the best quality or is it because Princess Diana was at that show? If it was because of Diana then that's a dumb reason to pick the 16th. I'm not interested in The Royal Family. I wanna see Michael

AlwaysThere · Jul 26, 2013

Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

analogue said:
To be honest i would have preferred the 15th. Mainly because it has The Way You Make Me Feel in the setlist so the show feels more complete. Why did they choose the 16th? Is it because that was the one they had with the best quality or is it because Princess Diana was at that show? If it was because of Diana then that's a dumb reason to pick the 16th. I'm not interested in The Royal Family. I wanna see Michael

Because many have billed it as Michael's absolute BEST performance, not to mention that fans specifically called the July 15 show out in petitions. And it truly is Michael's best show. I've heard from people who were there that it was better than any other show. I think you see the Royal Family twice during the shows for no more than five seconds.

qbee · Jul 26, 2013

Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

analogue said:
To be honest i would have preferred the 15th. Mainly because it has The Way You Make Me Feel in the setlist so the show feels more complete. Why did they choose the 16th? Is it because that was the one they had with the best quality or is it because Princess Diana was at that show? If it was because of Diana then that's a dumb reason to pick the 16th. I'm not interested in The Royal Family. I wanna see Michael

bobmoo79 said:
This is going over old ground, but I thought they DIDN'T have any multi-track audio for any of the Umatics. Maybe I'm wrong.

They didn't have multi-track audio for the 15th. The Best sound quality was for the 16th. They chose that because it was an iconic performance and for the HQ sound, Which they could also use for the Live CD. No matter what they did some would be complaining. If they released 15th fans would be complaining about the audio and the quality and becuase it wasn't on Blu Ray. The umatic tapes isn't all that much better. So its just all down to personal preference. You can't please everyone. It will be that way no matter what they released, even down to the song choices. One group of fans will say they don't like that song another will say they love it. One will say they wanted a different song, another will say they don't want that song. One will say I don't like the way its mixed another will say they love the mix. it just personal preference. which they can't cater to.

Dudex · Jul 26, 2013

Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

if that so, why TWYMMF from 15 july sounds same by quality like 16 july?

qbee · Jul 27, 2013

Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

I dunno.

mj_brainiac · Jul 27, 2013

Re: Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ?

Zakk said:
me too! one perfect Blu-Ray Release of each Tour with hours of bonus features would be perfect!

Was looking for this thread but kept missing it LOL

I agree. Maybe in the coming years, a blu ray release could be a possibility

Dudex · Jul 27, 2013

Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

It means only that 15 july multitrack exists. Sony released 16 july cause fans asking it, not because they don't have other multitrack audio.

Rudolf · Jul 27, 2013

Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

qbee said:
They didn't have multi-track audio for the 15th. The Best sound quality was for the 16th.

It was recorded and they did. The 15th and the 16th are about the same quality. Dave has confirmed that in couple of his posts.

Rudolf · Jul 27, 2013

Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

analogue said:
To be honest i would have preferred the 15th. Mainly because it has The Way You Make Me Feel in the setlist so the show feels more complete. Why did they choose the 16th? Is it because that was the one they had with the best quality or is it because Princess Diana was at that show? If it was because of Diana then that's a dumb reason to pick the 16th. I'm not interested in The Royal Family. I wanna see Michael

I think mainly it's the Diana thing. Marketing.

Zakk · Jul 29, 2013

Re: Michael's Contract

we need direct contact with them, we need to know what was filmed, what wasnt, whats on 35mm film, 16mm film, 8mm film, umatic, beta tape, vhs etc. and see what other shows exist on multitrack, as we know now that july 16th wembley isnt the only show on multitrack.. july 15th is too.

AtlasAir · Jul 29, 2013

Re: Michael's Contract

Zakk said:
we need direct contact with them, we need to know what was filmed, what wasnt, whats on 35mm film, 16mm film, 8mm film, umatic, beta tape, vhs etc. and see what other shows exist on multitrack, as we know now that july 16th wembley isnt the only show on multitrack.. july 15th is too.

They will never tell what they have. It's not a good move financially to do such a thing.

The Jackson estate will continue for many many years to come slowly releasing stuff here and there. It's just how it goes.

And there surely is more multi track audio in their possession to match up with a master copy of a show.

I still think the only reason they chose the 16th is because Diana was there (woo...) and it was a stadium show.
LIVE AT WEMBLEY! just sounds better than LIVE IN MINNESOTA!, haha

Zakk · Jul 29, 2013

Re: Michael's Contract

AtlasAir said:
They will never tell what they have. It's not a good move financially to do such a thing.

The Jackson estate will continue for many many years to come slowly releasing stuff here and there. It's just how it goes.

And there surely is more multi track audio in their possession to match up with a master copy of a show.

I still think the only reason they chose the 16th is because Diana was there (woo...) and it was a stadium show.
LIVE AT WEMBLEY! just sounds better than LIVE IN MINNESOTA!, haha

regardless of the HIStoric reason, and considerring diana was only featured for like 4 seconds at most... i would go for a professionally filmed show either directed by william pecchi or patrick kelly!

Zakk · Jul 29, 2013

Re: Michael's Contract

When they identified the pk films in the archive, didnt they make an announcement of the discovering? david said they had been in michael's archive all along. and that liverpool is on film in full.. we need some kind of statement based on film reels, and not just umatics from them.

dam2040 · Jul 29, 2013

Re: Rumor of Michael's contract

Wembley was announced, being printed and shipped all over the world. They weren't going to stop it after the time/money/flack they got for doing the whole Wembley thing losing more money. I have no doubt they have an awful lot of VHS tapes/Laser discs of the tours because of what they've said. We know NOTHING about what was filmed. Some bits may have been shot for Moonwalker but just because there's a tiny section of IWYB in Man in the Mirror from in the crowd, doesn't mean there was some multi-track multi-angle film recording. I couldn't care less about what people have said about what was filmed until I see "Michael Jackson Live at.." on Blu-Ray, because until then it's speculation, which is pointless and only ends up going around in circles not getting anywhere. Really, we've got all we'll ever need to document Michael's progression as a performer. The high energy 1987-88 but better 1992 tour followed by an older MJ proving he could still rock it in 1997. It allows for us to see MJ advance as a performer, and nothing else is really needed now from the tour perspective. It's just the unreleased songs/demo's and there is quite a few of them, so bring on the new album!

HIStoric · Jul 30, 2013

Re: Rumor of Michael's contract

jtabbott8 said:
I wish the estate would make some announcement or something that listed material (Songs,Films,Etc..) they have so that way all of these ridiculous "there is nothing left in the vault" and "no film reels exist" or stories like this would stop..

Zakk said:
we need direct contact with them, we need to know what was filmed, what wasnt, whats on 35mm film, 16mm film, 8mm film, umatic, beta tape, vhs etc. and see what other shows exist on multitrack, as we know now that july 16th wembley isnt the only show on multitrack.. july 15th is too.

No they do not. Part of the mystery is not knowing what is in the archive but, as previously mentioned, it's just not wise financially.

AtlasAir said:
I still think the only reason they chose the 16th is because Diana was there (woo...) and it was a stadium show.
LIVE AT WEMBLEY! just sounds better than LIVE IN MINNESOTA!, haha

Yeah, Wembley seems to have this certain 'pizazz' quality to it's name. You often see artists release their shows that were performed at the famous Wembley stadium because of it's name alone. That's probably why the Dangerous is just "Michael Jackson Live in Bucharest" instead of "Michael Jackson Live at Bucharest National Stadium". Wembley is famous worldwide and gives off the feeling that the many of the artists perform their best there.

dam2040 said:
Wembley was announced, being printed and shipped all over the world. They weren't going to stop it after the time/money/flack they got for doing the whole Wembley thing losing more money. I have no doubt they have an awful lot of VHS tapes/Laser discs of the tours because of what they've said. We know NOTHING about what was filmed. Some bits may have been shot for Moonwalker but just because there's a tiny section of IWYB in Man in the Mirror from in the crowd, doesn't mean there was some multi-track multi-angle film recording. I couldn't care less about what people have said about what was filmed until I see "Michael Jackson Live at.." on Blu-Ray, because until then it's speculation, which is pointless and only ends up going around in circles not getting anywhere.

In regards to the higher quality footage you seen in Moonwalker, Warner Brothers would have a complete negative of the film in their archives, hence why it was rescanned and re-released on Blu-ray three years ago. I don't believe Warner Brothers have much else in their archives due to the fact the Blu-ray had no extras minus a trailer (plus they would much rather use the space on THEIR content, rather than Michael Jackson's as they would only have the distribution rights to the film itself).

As such, nobody (well, us anyway) would know if the Estate has the rest of the shows (or the show we see in MW) still archived. For all we know, the rest of the footage might have been lost in the quarter of a century it has been since these shows were filmed and I wouldn't be too surprised if it has, sadly.

AtlasAir · Jul 30, 2013

Re: Rumor of Michael's contract

Pechi (spelling?) might not be the most reliable source for film. He quit after the first leg of the tour.

There very well probably is film-based stuff from the first leg, but possibly only 2 cameras (see BAD COMPANY for example).

And Kellys work on 2nd leg was probably focused mostly on APOM and crowd shots.

There very well may be a 2-film camera shot footage of a 2nd leg show (for the sake of documenting it), but a full fledged concert film WOULD need several cameras for coverage.

You might notice that APOM video AND MITM from Moonwalker were not all shot from the same show. Not counting the crowd shots, they were pieced together from various angles at various shows.

If they did film an entire show with the possible idea of making a concert film of sorts, things wouldn't be as random as this.

I mean, they could have just filmed ONE single performance of MITM and grabbed random crowd shots if they wanted.

^^^^ Random thoughts. I had an idea of what I wanted to type, but they just kind of all got garbled into a mess of ideas.

HIStoric · Jul 30, 2013

Re: Rumor of Michael's contract

AtlasAir said:
Pechi (spelling?) might not be the most reliable source for film. He quit after the first leg of the tour.

Not only that but while he may know if something was filmed or not (in the first leg anyway), it's unlikely he knows what has happened to the footage in ~25ish years since.

Galactus123 · Jul 30, 2013

Re: Rumor of Michael's contract

AtlasAir said:
There very well may be a 2-film camera shot footage of a 2nd leg show (for the sake of documenting it), but a full fledged concert film WOULD need several cameras for coverage.

dam2040 · Jul 30, 2013

Re: Rumor of Michael's contract

Most of those angles wouldn't look very good for a 2hr show, especially the far out cameras.

Galactus123 · Jul 30, 2013

Re: Rumor of Michael's contract

dam2040 said:
Most of those angles wouldn't look very good for a 2hr show, especially the far out cameras.

Of course those are like special camera angles for moments like 2:32:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loEfNKv2zYo

Not used all the time.

dam2040 · Jul 30, 2013

Re: Rumor of Michael's contract

Galactus123 said:
Of course those are like special camera angles for moments like 2:32:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loEfNKv2zYo

Not used all the time.

Certainly, but for 2hrs angles like that would barely be seen so it would look very repetitive. A 2hr concert looking like some of the footage from the USA show in Spike Lee's APOM? It would be cool, but wouldn't look very good.

Galactus123 · Jul 30, 2013

Re: Rumor of Michael's contract

dam2040 said:
A 2hr concert looking like some of the footage from the USA show in Spike Lee's APOM? It would be cool, but wouldn't look very good.

If those USA show clips in Bad 25 APOM are from Minneapolis like black jacket parts in Moonwalker MITM there are more cameras than that. Two at front of the stage and one at the back. This could also be the same camera?:

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r560/Galactus123/vlcsnap-2013-07-30-21h19m35s77_zps51488fa6.png
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r560/Galactus123/vlcsnap-2013-07-30-21h20m25s160_zps9bc1f70c.png

I think full concert from that angle would look great. It could be great extra feature for the Blu-Ray/DVD.

dam2040 · Jul 30, 2013

Re: Rumor of Michael's contract

Galactus123 said:
If those USA show clips in Bad 25 APOM are from Minneapolis like black jacket parts in Moonwalker MITM there are more cameras than that. Two at front of the stage and one at the back. This could also be the same camera?:

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r560/Galactus123/vlcsnap-2013-07-30-21h19m35s77_zps51488fa6.png
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r560/Galactus123/vlcsnap-2013-07-30-21h20m25s160_zps9bc1f70c.png

I think full concert from that angle would look great. It could be great extra feature for the Blu-Ray/DVD.

Exactly, extra feature/something on a collector label. Not a standalone release like Bad 25.

AtlasAir · Jul 30, 2013

Re: Rumor of Michael's contract

Galactus123 said:
I took some screenshots from Moonwalker MITM. In that they used footage from 2 blue shirt concerts. I tried to spot different cameras used in Liverpool concert:

Alright, I've seen enough.
They're clearly holding out on us.
Nice job piecing all that together.

Also, the crowd shots appear to be randomly at various European shows.

I would not care at all if it was a compilation of various shows mixed into one. Just do it!

But only thing is, though, they wouldn't have a crane shot, as the crane is already in use by the jumbotron cam. So no smooth, interesting gliding shots from high and low.

dam2040 · Jul 30, 2013

Re: Rumor of Michael's contract

If something was released, it would be a lot different to what we are used to. Less angles, closer up. Different feel to other concerts which would be pretty cool I suppose.

AtlasAir · Jul 30, 2013

Re: Rumor of Michael's contract

An advantage of the tower/soundboard cam as the arena shows is the place the camera is sitting is considerably a lot closer to the stage than at a stadium.
I mean, obviously cameras have optical zoom, but having the soundboard location a lot closer to the stage means a clearer picture (see Bad 25's APOM Minneapolis shots).

(I'm referring to the possible need to combine various shows).

Galactus123 · Jul 31, 2013

Re: Rumor of Michael's contract

AtlasAir said:
An advantage of the tower/soundboard cam as the arena shows is the place the camera is sitting is considerably a lot closer to the stage than at a stadium.
I mean, obviously cameras have optical zoom, but having the soundboard location a lot closer to the stage means a clearer picture (see Bad 25's APOM Minneapolis shots).

(I'm referring to the possible need to combine various shows).

Combining would be good idea if they can make it look and feel like one show. But I don't think they should combine US and Europe footage because the stage looks so different. The best choice would be full concert from one place if it's possible. They did great job combining 2 concerts in the 30th Anniversary Special though.

Edit: Maybe this should continue in Lets investigate what BAD concerts may have been shot on film ? thread?

mj_brainiac · Aug 6, 2013

Re: Michael Prince & Brad Buxer - Secret Project (Confirmed MJ related - Post #155)

AlwaysThere said:
People aren't understanding. U matic tapes are practically the same quality as VHS tapes. Look at the performance of TWYMMF from the July 15 show. Not that much of a difference. Had they given us the 15 it would be SLIGHTLY better quality than the 16. Barely noticable.

I see a big difference between the The Way You Make Me Feel clip and the 16th. Not to mention, the 15th was a more complete show with the full '88 setlist

Lets Discuss BAD concerts footage and what may have been shot on film ?

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