Joe Jackson Gunning to Sue Over MJ's Death

[Ramona122003]

here's one source

http://www.anesthesiologynews.com/index.asp?ses=ogst&section_id=1&show=dept&article_id=7579

The only problem I have with this article is that they talk about specially Propofol addiction. Which Michael clearly never had:


Because propofol is such a short-acting substance, heavy abusers must inject it frequently to stay high—as many as 50 to 100 times during a using session is not unheard of,

Unlike abusers of alcohol or most other substances, propofol addicts are unable to function on the job, said Paul Earley, MD, medical director of the Talbott Recovery Campus, an addiction rehabilitation facility in Atlanta that specializes in treating doctors and other healthcare providers.

“It’s not a subtle drug,” Dr. Earley said. “It’s not like fentanyl or narcotics, where you can be slightly inebriated on the drug and even show up for work. Most of the time, you inject it and pass out.”


We know from looking at TII and hearing people talk about Michael's last weeks he was definitely functional. He took it during the History Tour and no one was the wiser. He also didn't inject himself 100+ times.

Although, the rest of the article was good and an eye opener.

 

[babybugz1]

I don't know if he's been using it for years but it's alarming he was using it period. I know he had the sleeping problem but there had to be another way to treat it.

 

[Lacey]

The only problem I have with this article is that they talk about specially Propofol addiction. Which Michael clearly never had:


Because propofol is such a short-acting substance, heavy abusers must inject it frequently to stay high—as many as 50 to 100 times during a using session is not unheard of,

Unlike abusers of alcohol or most other substances, propofol addicts are unable to function on the job, said Paul Earley, MD, medical director of the Talbott Recovery Campus, an addiction rehabilitation facility in Atlanta that specializes in treating doctors and other healthcare providers.

“It’s not a subtle drug,” Dr. Earley said. “It’s not like fentanyl or narcotics, where you can be slightly inebriated on the drug and even show up for work. Most of the time, you inject it and pass out.”


We know from looking at TII and hearing people talk about Michael's last weeks he was definitely functional. He took it during the History Tour and no one was the wiser. He also didn't inject himself 100+ times.

Although, the rest of the article was good and an eye opener.

The thing about self-injection doesn't apply to Michael, of course. It's because the people being studied were health care workers/anesthesiologists/residents. Because of their access and knowledge they were able to do that. It seems pretty unheard of for it to be misused outside of those circles. For Michael it was obviously used for instant sleep to battle the insomnia.

Interesting is that it seems Michael had doctors give this to him to sleep in tour situations - which would bring back the memories and work habits of his childhood.

As for other ways to battle insomnia - well there is insomnia and there is severe insomnia - which can be far more difficult. Especially if doctors were treating the "symptom" of insomnia and not looking for and treating the root cause of it.

 

[Ramona122003]

The thing about self-injection doesn't apply to Michael, of course. It's because the people being studied were health care workers/anesthesiologists/residents. Because of their access and knowledge they were able to do that. It seems pretty unheard of for it to be misused outside of those circles. For Michael it was obviously used for instant sleep to battle the insomnia.

Interesting is that it seems Michael had doctors give this to him to sleep in tour situations - which would bring back the memories and work habits of his childhood.

As for other ways to battle insomnia - well there is insomnia and there is severe insomnia - which can be far more difficult. Especially if doctors were treating the "symptom" of insomnia and not looking for and treating the root cause of it.

I do remember reading not so long ago that there are people with insomnia that medicines can't treat. I can't remember the actor name at the moment, but this person suffered from insomnia so bad that he got like 10 hours of sleep in a month. Sleeping pills and medicines did nothing for him except make him fog headed during the day and this is actually quite common.

It finally reached the point that he silently checked himself in a mental ward in a hospital. No one knew he was there until Britney Spears had her melt down and was taking to the same ward where the media spotted him. It apparently took him several weeks before he got his insomnia under control.

So, Michael may had tried other method, I almost sure he did, and it did nothing. For a person like Michael, Propofol must had seem like a godsent for him. Although, it is interesting to note he only used it on tour and nowhere else. Makes me wonder what he did to sleep for then or if he even did.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Makes me wonder what he did to sleep for then or if he even did.

vbrep_register("2584398")

i wonder if he hardly did. i remember during the trial one of the ranch staff testifyed and said it wasnt uncommon to see mj walking around the grounds of the ranch at 3 or 4 in the morning. so i guess unless he really had to sleep cause of work then maybe he just didnt sleep much or took naps during the day. he was always known as a night owl but obviously we never knew how bad it was

 

[ML2009]

Reckless problem with Propofol? LOL! Propofol isn't even an addicitve substance. Besides, it is the recommended drug for insomnia treatment, so STOP acting as if MJ was a drug addict. Propofol ISN'T even addictive.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

lol........

 

[enlightenu]

I have a friend who is on 26 prescriptions---I said 26 prescriptions she has to take EVERY day due to health problems. Now tell me: is she a drug addict?

Now of course Michael had bouts with presecription drug dependency starting in 1993. But in 1993 he had LEGITIMATE reasons for taking painkillers. The man's scalp was reconstructed due to that burn accident he had in 1984. Also during 1993 Michael was taking PRESCRIBED painkillers for oral pain due to dental work. What stirred the over-dependency was that Chandler sex abuse case that erupted during that same time. Now I don't know about you, but I'm not going to sit behind this computer and say that I would NEVER allow myself to get dependant on prescriptions. Neither you, I nor anyone knows what they would have done or how they would have been affected if they were in Michael's shoes.

Over the years, Michael was on prescriptions for LEGITIMATE reasons....not to get a fix. He could have been OVER prescribed. That can happen to anyone. People need to remember that and stop trying to make him out to be some hopeless addict that should be held responsible for his own murder.

Remember, the only drugs that were found in his system were the sedatives and the propofal given to him by Murray.

 

[StaceyMJ]

Thread cleaned.
Piling blame on Michael for what happened is unnecessary. He paid the ultimate price, and Murray is a doctor, who he trusted. Insomnia is an illness, which Murray should have treated appropriately. Please think about that.
Not to mention this is not the thread for all that either.

Please continue, respectfully. :flowers:

 

[ensleyave]

You are going to delete me for calling her Diane Demon but she can call Michael all sorts of druggie. Well if I get deleted or banned I might as well make it worth my while.

 

[StaceyMJ]

You are going to delete me for calling her Diane Demon but she can call Michael all sorts of druggie. Well if I get deleted or banned I might as well make it worth my while.

I don't see any remaining posts saying that? Please report any posts you have an issue with and they will be dealt with.

 

[RockWithMichael4eva]

you are going to delete me for calling her diane demon but she can call michael all sorts of druggie. Well if i get deleted or banned i might as well make it worth my while.

rofll...

 

[Soundmind]

The thing about self-injection doesn't apply to Michael, of course. It's because the people being studied were health care workers/anesthesiologists/residents. Because of their access and knowledge they were able to do that. It seems pretty unheard of for it to be misused outside of those circles. For Michael it was obviously used for instant sleep to battle the insomnia.

Interesting is that it seems Michael had doctors give this to him to sleep in tour situations - which would bring back the memories and work habits of his childhood.

As for other ways to battle insomnia - well there is insomnia and there is severe insomnia - which can be far more difficult. Especially if doctors were treating the "symptom" of insomnia and not looking for and treating the root cause of it.

You should know that the main reason they abuse propofol is due to the 'feelings' they go through once its effects starts to wear off and that's why an addict inject and reinject .... up to 100 times a day in some cases . That's why they use it . MJ could not have formed any dependency , not even psychological on it because he did not wake up every ten minutes and went through those 'good feelings' and was re injected so he could enjoy the same feelings over and over again .

MJ did try other things , when Lee told him she would bring him something else , he told her if she was going to bring him things with a particular herbal substance then she should not bother because he tried it all also .

I have to agree with elusive , propofol was not used as a treatment for insomnia . propofol was just a desperate last minute action that MJ was forced to take inorder to meet his obligations the next day , and I have a strong very strong feeling that when the trial approaches and the amounts of propofol purchased are made known we will be horrified to know that MJ did not even sleep must of those night and it was on occasion only he took propofol.


Joe again does not care about Murray , Joe nor did his offspring have talked or mentioned MJ's severe insomnia whenever they commented on their 'junkie' brother ,son ...etc . I'm sure joe prefers to forget about it all together so he would not feel guilty that his actions were the root for it . He is not seeking justice for MJ , he is seeking justice FROM mj , he want to be paid whether it is you or me or AEG or Sony or Toyota basically he wants money and nothing in the process is going to prevent him from doing so .

Katherine is not seeking any action because she learnt the hard way that Joe and Randy's 'advise' could have costed her her inheritance . She has a new lawyer , he is probably telling her everything and advising her what to do and what ot to do . When joe is going to file a case against AEG , and if the judge does not grant him any allowance , then the only way will be through Katherine . I'm sure Joe and Randy are going to make Katherine's life a living hell if she does not file a lawsuit against AEG . we should pray for MJ's mom .

But I'm sure others in that family do love katherine to protect her and support her , yesterday's action by Randy proves that Katherine is not listening to him or joe any more and she knows their intentions are not as good as they want everyone to believe, ofcourse we learned long time ago Katherine will keep these things to herself and won't make them public but her actions just prove this woman is very smart and STRONG .

 

[elusive moonwalker]

oe again does not care about Murray , Joe nor did his offspring have talked or mentioned MJ's severe insomnia whenever they commented on their 'junkie' brother ,son ...etc . I'm sure joe prefers to forget about it all together so he would not feel guilty that his actions were the root for it . He is not seeking justice for MJ , he is seeking justice FROM mj , he want to be paid whether it is you or me or AEG or Sony or Toyota basically he wants money and nothing in the process is going to prevent him from doing so .

well said

 

[ensleyave]

Wow Sound you make me think.

 

[Rockin.]

Blahh.

Besides, it is the recommended drug for insomnia treatment

I don't think that's true. Lots of doctors have been on tv shocked about Murray giving it to Michael. Its an anesthetic for medical procedures, I don't think it brings you to a natural state of 'sleep'. It just knocks you out.

Does Propofol help you sleep?

Propofol produces general anesthesia which is a different state than normal, restful sleep.

I don't see how he can have been given propofol for 6 weeks. It takes time to recover from anesthetic. So how was he taking this for 6 weeks and then going to rehearsals, dancing around like normal?

Side effects of Diprivan may include dizziness and lightheadedness. Balance, coordination and judgment may be affected for up to 24 hours, so patients should not drive cars, play sports or sign contracts in that period, Vila said.



Patients may also experience a euphoric feeling upon waking up, Vila said. This is distinct from older anesthetics, which caused nausea and vomiting, he said.



The FDA also issued a warning to health care professionals in 2007 about patients who experienced chills, fever and body aches shortly after receiving the drug for sedation or general anesthesia.


Doctors consider sedation a continuum, where relaxation is on the mild side and general anesthesia is at the other extreme.

Though we did hear about MJ feeling cold at rehearsal, despite wearing layers of clothes.

 

[Justthefacts]

No we did not hear that

 

[Ramona122003]

Blahh.

I don't think that's true. Lots of doctors have been on tv shocked about Murray giving it to Michael. Its an anesthetic for medical procedures, I don't think it brings you to a natural state of 'sleep'. It just knocks you out. I don't see how he can have been given propofol for 6 weeks. It takes time to recover from anesthetic. So how was he taking this for 6 weeks and then going to rehearsals, dancing around like normal?



Though we did hear about MJ feeling cold at rehearsal, despite wearing layers of clothes.

Most of the people and doctors were shock because anesthetic abuse is only really known in certain circles. However, as you can see by reading those articles, it is not unheard of among some doctors and nurses. They also used it as a sleep aid and it seems that only doctors who become addicted, injecting 100+ times, becomes none functional. Also, propofol can be use as a sort of sleep aid at a sedative level. Namely, you are not completely knocked out. The problem is that everyone is only looking at propofol as it is use for surgery.

Also, Michael was taking propofol during the History Tour and no one noticed, Michael looked healthy, and he didn't seem to suffer any long term effects. Most people who keep talking about propofol not given restful sleep are the same people who were shock and never heard of this before. However, most people in the field have and it does seem to provide some type of rest for the person. Especially if that person was not sleeping or getting very little sleep to begin with. Also, different people react differently to anesthetic. Some wake up restful, some wake up drowsy, and some have a bad reaction to general anesthetic so it is not the same among individuals, like most drugs.

Those reports about Michael feeling cold were never confirm. If you have noticed from TII there were several people wearing layers as well. The guitar player was wearing a leather jacket with the pants to match and she showed no signs of being too hot. There were also people with sweat shirts and such and Michael did not wear layers all the time. You clearly see him switches his outfits from layers to just a jacket even on his last day. Also, given the heavy customs he was going to be wearing during the actual shows, those layers may not seem like much and it is well known that Michael loved it warm.

The reason why I doubt Michael took propofol for 6 weeks is because the amount that the LAPD found did not match the amount needed to keep someone asleep for 8 hours for several days. As Sound has stated before, 50mg of propofol does nothing and you wake up in a matter of minutes.

 

[PrincessMichaela]

he want to be paid whether it is you or me or AEG or Sony or Toyota basically he wants money and nothing in the process is going to prevent him from doing so .

:lmao:

 

[ivy]

Even if he was feeling cold , I don't think you can generalize it and say that it was because of this drug etc.
Personally I have relatives who has tyroid conditions or anemia and feel cold all the time. None of them is using the above mentioned drugs or underweight.

 

[Rockin.]

Ivy - You're right of course but because this was specifically mentioned, it seemed like they were worried about it.

No we did not hear that

Yes we did hear that. Directly (not from newspapers or on tv) from 2 people who were there with him at the rehearsals in the Staples Centre. You personally may not have heard it.

Also, I've just remembered the whole 'half my body is hot, half my body is cold' from that nurse, whether this is true or not I don't know.

There were also reports about the fires in Michaels room being on full blast (yes, we don't know if that is true) - but people have different opinions on why they were on.

Most of the people and doctors were shock because anesthetic abuse is only really known in certain circles. However, as you can see by reading those articles, it is not unheard of among some doctors and nurses. They also used it as a sleep aid and it seems that only doctors who become addicted, injecting 100+ times, becomes none functional. Also, propofol can be use as a sort of sleep aid at a sedative level. Namely, you are not completely knocked out. The problem is that everyone is only looking at propofol as it is use for surgery.

Also, Michael was taking propofol during the History Tour and no one noticed, Michael looked healthy, and he didn't seem to suffer any long term effects. Most people who keep talking about propofol not given restful sleep are the same people who were shock and never heard of this before. However, most people in the field have and it does seem to provide some type of rest for the person. Especially if that person was not sleeping or getting very little sleep to begin with. Also, different people react differently to anesthetic. Some wake up restful, some wake up drowsy, and some have a bad reaction to general anesthetic so it is not the same among individuals, like most drugs.

Those reports about Michael feeling cold were never confirm. If you have noticed from TII there were several people wearing layers as well. The guitar player was wearing a leather jacket with the pants to match and she showed no signs of being too hot. There were also people with sweat shirts and such and Michael did not wear layers all the time. You clearly see him switches his outfits from layers to just a jacket even on his last day. Also, given the heavy customs he was going to be wearing during the actual shows, those layers may not seem like much and it is well known that Michael loved it warm.

The reason why I doubt Michael took propofol for 6 weeks is because the amount that the LAPD found did not match the amount needed to keep someone asleep for 8 hours for several days. As Sound has stated before, 50mg of propofol does nothing and you wake up in a matter of minutes.

Thank you for your reply. You made some points I haven't thought of.

Are you saying that if Michael was using propofol, he would still be able to perform normally? - Because he wouldn't experience the side effects, because he wasn't being given a large amount?

Also can you tell me, how do we know Michael was using propofol during the History tour? - I've heard people say it on this board, but how do we know for sure.

Are you saying you believe Michael was being given Propofol for six weeks or you don't believe it?

(I think this entire post is off topic :/ )

 

[Ramona122003]

Ivy - You're right of course but because this was specifically mentioned, it seemed like they were worried about it.



Yes we did hear that. Directly (not from newspapers or on tv) from 2 people who were there with him at the rehearsals in the Staples Centre. You personally may not have heard it.

Also, I've just remembered the whole 'half my body is hot, half my body is cold' from that nurse, whether this is true or not I don't know.

There were also reports about the fires in Michaels room being on full blast (yes, we don't know if that is true) - but people have different opinions on why they were on.



Thank you for your reply. You made some points I haven't thought of.

Are you saying that if Michael was using propofol, he would still be able to perform normally? - Because he wouldn't experience the side effects, because he wasn't being given a large amount?

Also can you tell me, how do we know Michael was using propofol during the History tour? - I've heard people say it on this board, but how do we know for sure.

Are you saying you believe Michael was being given Propofol for six weeks or you don't believe it?

(I think this entire post is off topic :/ )

From what I have read, people only become none functional when they became addicted to propofol and heavily abuse it. That is when you have that person injecting themselves 100+ times a day. People who does this usually die from Chronic Propofol Intoxication like Justthefacts said in one of his/her post. However, they don't seem to be the case for those who just use propofol for sleep because they don't get that good feeling from waking up. So, he would be able to function normally through the day without any real aftereffects.

As for the History Tour, CNN not long after Michael's death was able to follow up on a led that said that Michael had a mini client with him during this time period. This search lead to a Germany doctor who refuse to answer when ask. Although, he didn't deny it and was visible upset by Michael's death. Michael himself said he took it before with someone watching over him and he said he was fine. I don't think he would ask for propofol again if it did leave him feelings held back or even a little sick.

Also, someone pointed out a couple months ago that when Michael was interview after Princess Diana's death he said he found out about it after his doctor woke him up. If you think about it, why would a doctor wake you up on tour. This could point towards him using propofol during this time, but nothing is readily confirm. If or when this goes to trial, I am certain this will be explain more.

For the whole hot and cold argument. We don't know what was the cause of the phone call to Lee, but it is known that propofol does not cause that half hot/cold feeling. What ever he took that day was not propofol and it could very well been cause by his sever insomnia since it can cause you to feel hot/cold along with other problems. However, that is all theory.

I already pointed out why I don't readily believe when people say he was cold because of layers since TII is filled with images of other people in jackets, sweats, and long sleeves. Not to mention Michael loving it hot along with the customs he would of been wearing which looks like a heat factory. It may also had been cause, if he was cold, by problems ivy mentioned. We won't know either way until we see the full autopsy where an increase in white blood cells or an decrease in red cells would determine if he had a fever or anemic and such.

Although, I do agree with you about the 6 week timeline. The amount the LAPD found does not match the amount need to maintain propofol at a sedative level for 6 weeks. That 50mg is a joke and would had done nothing. Since we are not allow to talk about Murray too much on this topic, I won't go any further.

 

[ivy]

Also can you tell me, how do we know Michael was using propofol during the History tour? - I've heard people say it on this board, but how do we know for sure.

It is said at CNN. they also showed an interview with the doctor at 260 with Anderson Cooper. They established that an anesthesiologist (and two nurses) were accompanying him during the tour. The doctor confirmed that he had a sleeping problem but did not say whether or not he gave him anything.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/03/jackson.wrap/index.html

Michael Jackson traveled with what amounted to a mini-clinic, complete with an IV pole and an anesthesiologist who medicated the insomniac singer, during his HIStory tour in the mid-90s, sources close to Jackson told CNN Thursday.

The anesthesiologist who accompanied Jackson during the 82-date world tour in 1996 and 1997 was Dr. Neil Ratner, the sources said.
They said Ratner would keep medical equipment in his hotel room, which he used to monitor Jackson's vital signs when the singer was asleep or "under," as one source put it.
The doctor apparently said Jackson had trouble sleeping and that Ratner helped "take him down" and "bring him back up," according to the source.
Ratner confirmed to CNN that Jackson suffered from a sleep disorder, but refused to address any of the other allegations. "It's really something I don't want to talk about right now," he said outside his Woodstock, New York, home Thursday.

Furthermore if you believe Arnold Klein on TMZ chat he told that he went to tour to intervene Michael and stayed in his room with his nurse overnight so that the other doctors could not give him propofol.

 

[Ramona122003]

It is said at CNN. they also showed an interview with the doctor at 260 with Anderson Cooper. They established that an anesthesiologist (and two nurses) were accompanying him during the tour. The doctor confirmed that he had a sleeping problem but did not say whether or not he gave him anything.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/03/jackson.wrap/index.html

Michael Jackson traveled with what amounted to a mini-clinic, complete with an IV pole and an anesthesiologist who medicated the insomniac singer, during his HIStory tour in the mid-90s, sources close to Jackson told CNN Thursday.

The anesthesiologist who accompanied Jackson during the 82-date world tour in 1996 and 1997 was Dr. Neil Ratner, the sources said.
They said Ratner would keep medical equipment in his hotel room, which he used to monitor Jackson's vital signs when the singer was asleep or "under," as one source put it.
The doctor apparently said Jackson had trouble sleeping and that Ratner helped "take him down" and "bring him back up," according to the source.
Ratner confirmed to CNN that Jackson suffered from a sleep disorder, but refused to address any of the other allegations. "It's really something I don't want to talk about right now," he said outside his Woodstock, New York, home Thursday.

Furthermore if you believe Arnold Klein on TMZ chat he told that he went to tour to intervene Michael and stayed in his room with his nurse overnight so that the other doctors could not give him propofol.

Thank you. That was what I was talking about.

 

[Ernestine]

You are going to delete me for calling her Diane Demon but she can call Michael all sorts of druggie. Well if I get deleted or banned I might as well make it worth my while.

I never called MJ a junkie. I did say using Propofol was reckless and dangerous as we see. The experts even said it was very dangerous for it to be used in the home the way MJ was using it.Say what you want, but please read what I said~

 

[elusive moonwalker]

then blame the doctor for telling him it was fine to use.

 

[mjjfan4ever]

a patient can't bare the responsibility for a physician not abiding by the hippocratic oath and endangering (KILLING) his patient.

i couldn't get any reasonable and ethical physician to give me profofol in my home, that should also apply to MJ. that isn't MJ's fault.... it is the negligence of the physician.

its crazy that dr. murderer 1. fails to do his job and care for his patient 2. blames the patient for his own failures as if he is the victim :evil:

i just don't get it

 

[MarielovesMJ]

then blame the doctor for telling him it was fine to use.

I really hate the doctor that said that to Mike, that is a greedy thing to do.

 

[virginia_woolf]

yesterday's action by Randy proves that Katherine is not listening to him .

what action? what did he do?

 

[hilliver]

Does Murrey think that saying he had been giving it to Michael for 6 weeks is going to help his case? He has no excuse and no defence, if Michael had it before, and maybe he did then he obviously felt safe because doctor(s)had convinced him he would be.

At worst Michael made an error of judgement, but without the knowledge that the doctors have. I don't blame him in the least, I just think it was tragic that he ever met Murrey and let him into his life.