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Info for next-release?

HIStoric said:
No-one's 'ripping' you off. They said it was a show in VHS quality and that's what they delivered.
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The point is that that bad, cartoon-like, damaged, old VHS should have never been released in the first place. So what if some fans requested it (not me)? Why would they suddenly start listening what fans want? They didn't listen to us when we wanted fake songs out of MICHAEL album, they didn't listen to us when we wanted fake song out of Immortal soundtrack, they didn't listen to us when we complained about youtube quality videos released on Vision DVD. They could have released any other concert they had in decent watchable quality and just simply say to us: "we don't have Wembley in releasable quality", and maybe just release audio on double CD from that particular show. That would be million times better than what they did. In my opinion this VHS is disrespectful to Michael and to us as a fans and as a customers. That VHS should have stayed in the vaults forever as it was meant to be just for MJ's personal use, until they find the original film source.
 
I agree with some of your points actually but do wish to point some things out.

OnirMJ said:
So what if some fans requested it (not me)? Why would they suddenly start listening what fans want?
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Because fans are the primary customers of reissues, therefore if there is a show they have been constantly demanding over the years, it makes sense to attempt to issue that show with the reissue. I imagine the Estate's point-of-view was that fans would appreciate they have finally released something that's been in demand for years, that the fans would ultimately care about Michael's performance over the visual quality and tbh, I've seen opinions divided. For many people, the VHS quality is distracting. For others, not so much.

Many fans realised that future releases (along the lines of Michael and Xscape) need to hold commercial value but also wanted Michael's demos at the same time. Many therefore suggested they release the demos in a special deluxe edition or something, that way the projects still have commercial value and yet fans who are only interested in what Michael worked on decades ago get something out of it too. Everyone wins and it was something I saw suggested a ridiculous amount of times over and over. So when it comes to reissues, yes, they should take what fans want into consideration at least (they have no obligation whatsoever to take it beyond that stage. Also, pretty ironic Zakk that you like the post and yet a large majority of your posts are full of suggestions as to what you want the Estate to release).

Personally, my view is that while I enjoy the Wembley release and that the VHS visuals add a nostalgic aesthetic to it, they should've absolutely chosen another concert if they had the film negatives of it and multi-tracks to it's recordings. A compilation concert? I don't know how I'd feel, I'd like to see it's execution first. That'd just be another thing debated back and forth amongst MJ fans though.

OnirMJ said:
they didn't listen to us when we wanted fake song out of Immortal soundtrack,
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Sort of to a degree, they took it out of the show itself a really long time ago, which will be seen by far more people than those who buy the soundtrack. They should take it out of the soundtrack though, yes.

OnirMJ said:
they didn't listen to us when we complained about youtube quality videos released on Vision DVD
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IIRC almost all of Michael's films were shot on film then edited on tape which is ultimately DVD resolution quality. It's going to take a long time time to dig up all the original film negatives, find the takes used in the final cuts, rescan all these negatives, fix up any possible degradation, recut the short films, colour-correct, redo any visual effects and all that jazz. Times that by 30-40 short films and you've got a monumental task on your hands. The Off the Wall short films will always be DVD resolution quality as they were shot on tape (at least, DSTYGE was and it seems the other two were as well). I agree the quality can be better and honestly, this is one of the possibly-happening projects I look forward to the most. At DVD resolution though, the quality is nothing remarkable but still acceptable for a DVD.

I quite liked the project personally because we finally had a large majority of Michael's videography in one physically stunning package. The next re-release though, I absolutely expect HD quality with the audio remastered to surround sound.

OnirMJ said:
They could have released any other concert they had in decent watchable quality and just simply say to us: "we don't have Wembley in releasable quality", and maybe just release audio on double CD from that particular show. That would be million times better than what they did. In my opinion this VHS is disrespectful to Michael and to us as a fans and as a customers. That VHS should have stayed in the vaults forever as it was meant to be just for MJ's personal use, until they find the original film source.
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That is assuming film negatives of other Bad shows were in their possession (I've seen Zakk bring up many times that many of the Bad shows were filmed. Yes that is true, but we all know that Michael's archiving was sporadic so I'm genuinely curious as to what's happened to them). I wouldn't know myself personally as to what they had access to when they were putting the project together. I don't consider the VHS disrespectful as such to Michael as the only questionable aspect of it is it's visual quality. Audio quality is excellent and his performance is on-point. I absolutely agree on the Double CD issue and fail to see why the Estate released just one disc.

I very much care for the future preservation and presentation of Michael's materials, which is why I've stated that I myself will not buy another solely-VHS quality release. Also the fact the project I'm most excited for is an eventual release of Michael's short films in HD, in fact I think they should discontinue this edition as soon as a higher quality version comes out.

My point was that there have been many rumours that the Estate have found more and more film negatives over these past few years, especially around and since the release of Bad 25. Therefore I feel we don't have to worry as much about a future VHS quality concert release. The Estate absolutely knows by now that fans would prefer something that isn't VHS quality. We got off to a really bumpy start with the posthumous releases after TII, but with each project I am gaining more confidence in the Estate (and Xscape just boosted that largely, easily my favourite posthumous project). Because I have seen them use high quality footage in other projects (notably the Bad 25 doco as previously mentioned in other posts), I have faith that they will use the highest quality source they have access to for future projects. So I'll stay optimistic.
 
^^I didn't say that it has to be from film negatives. I said: "They could have released any other concert they had in decent watchable quality". For example the 2 songs from Yokohama on that DVD have releasable quality. I'm not even against VHS releases if that's the only source. But the problem here was not that it was a VHS, the main problem (at least for me) was that it was "bad, cartoon-like, damaged" VHS probably watched by MJ million times (especially Man In The Mirror, Smooth Criminal and WBSS segments).

And that "restoration" process that was used did not helped at all! It just worsen the quality and made it look like a cartoon.
 
OnirMJ said:
^^I didn't say that it has to be from film negatives. I said: "They could have released any other concert they had in decent watchable quality". For example the 2 songs from Yokohama on that DVD have releasable quality. I'm not even against VHS releases if that's the only source. But the problem here was not that it was a VHS, the main problem (at least for me) was that it was "bad, cartoon-like, damaged" VHS probably watched by MJ million times (especially Man In The Mirror, Smooth Criminal and WBSS segments).

And that "restoration" process that was used did not helped at all! It just worsen the quality and made it look like a cartoon.
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Fair point actually. I just used film negatives as an example since there have been many formats used over the years. :)

A restoration process can only help so much when the source is rather restricted, I myself wouldn't comment on the restoration process until I saw a before and after. I agree about the colour though, it seems off at times.
 
HIStoric said:
Fair point actually. I just used film negatives as an example since there have been many formats used over the years. :)

A restoration process can only help so much when the source is rather restricted, I myself wouldn't comment on the restoration process until I saw a before and after. I agree about the colour though, it seems off at times.
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I remember watching the original snippet on Daybreak, i woke up at 6am to see it especially.. the colors were much better and it was sharper too!
 
Zakk said:
I remember watching the original snippet on Daybreak, i woke up at 6am to see it especially.. the colors were much better and it was sharper too!
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Intriguing, any comparisons out there?
 
HIStoric said:
Intriguing, any comparisons out there?
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Yeah, but not a master rip from the TV! just a web rip unfortunately.. very compressed so it wouldn't be fair to what was originally seen, wish it was never restored
 
If they release another concert from tape source this could be great:

The audio sounds awesome.

OnirMJ said:
That VHS should have stayed in the vaults forever as it was meant to be just for MJ's personal use, until they find the original film source.
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There is no original film source for that Wembley concert. It is on tape.
 
Galactus123 said:
There is no original film source for that Wembley concert. It is on tape.
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I don't care for that particular date. That night or the night before/after. The one that was filmed on film (I think 2 nights were filmed on film) should have been released - when and if they find the original source which is film, not sooner.
 
There is a question over just what material the Estate have. For instance it's common knowledge that Michael recorded a lot of demos over the years but do we know where they all went? Are producers, or others, holding onto them? I'm sure I read a rumour back in 2009 (that I'm in no way saying is true) that Michael had lap tops removed by family members on the day he died. The point I'm trying to make is that just because we know a song has been registered we don't know how complete it is, or if songs or film are being hoarded by people as they negotiate top dollar with the Estate. All I ask is that whatever they do have is released in the best quality possible with the minimum of alteration from Michaels vision and that it is promoted in a way that is worthy of MICHAEL JACKSON.
 
OnirMJ said:
I don't care for that particular date. That night or the night before/after. The one that was filmed on film (I think 2 nights were filmed on film) should have been released - when and if they find the original source which is film, not sooner.
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Exactly, who honestly cares which date of the tour it is? as long as it's from the film reels, or even a compilation then i'm happy.. i'd actually prefer it because then you can see the effect of Michael's presence on many countries which i believe would be a great insight. A montage release for each tour starting with Triumph would be LUSH!
 
Zakk said:
Exactly, who honestly cares which date of the tour it is? as long as it's from the film reels, or even a compilation then i'm happy.. i'd actually prefer it because then you can see the effect of Michael's presence on many countries which i believe would be a great insight. A montage release for each tour starting with Triumph would be LUSH!
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I thought you were all for one of the early American arena shows or LA89? I'll take any 88/89 show on film, but we've been reminded again, how MJ killed it on the American leg with the Landover boot.
 
aazzaabb said:
I thought you were all for one of the early American arena shows or LA89? I'll take any 88/89 show on film, but we've been reminded again, how MJ killed it on the American leg with the Landover boot.
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I'm all for late 1988 & early 1989.. he seems to be at his peak during those shows.. especially in Aintree/Landover/L.A & Milton Keynes, but i would like a compilation of Europe and the later shows also.. they should pick the highlight's of the tour and seamlessly mix it with his vocals/ad libs ;)
 
The Wembley VHS is the best possible route the Estate could have taken at the time.

It is to my understanding that the two nights at Wembley are the only two shows from the Bad tour captured on high quality multitrack. Their existence immediately opened up the floodgates for the first Michael Jackson live concert CD, which could not have been put together with Yokohama or Brisbane. I do wish the show had been split into two separate discs, but when you take into account how much money the Estate/Sony put into the entire Bad25 project - IJCSLY single reissue, Wembley visual restoration, studio costs for Wembley audio mixing/mastering, studio costs for original album remastering, studio costs for new material remastering, funds for remixes by Afrojack/Pitbull and Nero (unnecessary), packaging for the standard version, packaging for the deluxe version, packaging for the vinyl, special features on super deluxe version (Bad Tour Jacket, IJCSLY vinyl) Pepsi sponsorship - can you really blame them for not wanting to spend money on adding an extra disc and having to completely reevaluate the packaging?

Wembley is also the concert that fans had been petitioning for above anything else for the project. Birchey's entire "Keep the Magic" campaign in 2011 that gave us extracts of the multitracks got everyone turned on for that concert and that concert only. That screwed them over hugely; who knows what route they would have taken had he not drummed up the entire situation? When you're running a company that is currently in hot water for releasing three fake songs on a Michael Jackson album, you're going to do whatever the hell you have to to get the fans back on your side. (And no, coming out and admitting that the songs were fake would not have been a solution for that. That would have made things worse.)

Zakk continually references the fact that many cinematographers are confirming that shows were shot on high definition video and could be released on Blu-Ray at any point. I don't think it would be absurd to suggest that the Estate simply does not have access to such video. It's already been well established that Michael sucked at archiving, considering Branca and McClain don't have every unreleased song Michael recorded and don't even know where a large chunk of them are. Just because something is said to exist doesn't mean that it hasn't been lost or destroyed. Those of you against the Estate can say whatever you want, but I do not believe for one fraction of a second that they would release a YouTube quality concert as an official product if they had a truly valuable video in high definition at their disposal. (Yes, they have the Yokohama film reels, but that would have been an absolutely awful decision that probably would have turned me away from the deluxe set.)

Now, could they have easily issued a statement saying that they didn't have access to the Wembley film reels and simply not give us anything? Yes. But that would have been a bigger disappointment; I would rather Wembley in VHS quality than nothing at all. Now that the film reels have apparently been located I'm sure we'll see a high definition reissue at some point in the future. But for the time being, the continual complaining over it is completely unnecessary.

None of us could run the Estate any better. And it amuses me to see people assume that they could.
 
AlwaysThere said:
It is to my understanding that the two nights at Wembley are the only two shows from the Bad tour captured on high quality multitrack.
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I'm pretty sure this is multitrack audio:

It looks like the audio is from the black jacket USA concert.

AlwaysThere said:
(Yes, they have the Yokohama film reels, but that would have been an absolutely awful decision that probably would have turned me away from the deluxe set.)
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Yokohama is on tape.
 
Yokohama was shot on BetaCam by a Japanese TV station, it's never existed on film reels! it just shows how much of a drastic difference there is between Yokohama and Wembley and further's the annoyance that we don't have a single true transfer of Michael's best tour at this current moment in time. I firmly believe that Wembley isn't the only show that was recorded on multitracks, the audio on Moonwalker 5.1 DTS is taken from the Minneapolis show.. but yes, Dave Powell confirmed that the film reels were categorized after the release of BAD 25.. why did they decide what contents the project would include so early though? i read that they have been planning it since 2010.. that isn't nearly enough time to digitize all the negatives at there possession! i guess Wembley is okay, his performance is great and all but they also screwed up the audio mix! especially if you compare it with the snippets that originally leaked for example: 'I'll Be There' & 'Rock With You' among other's, personally i think they should have asked Dave Powell to have produced the audio aspect, as he did for the short film of 'Another Part Of Me'. Hopefully they have learnt there lesson, and they will not make this mistake again with future releases of the greatest live entertainer the world will ever see.
 
Speaking of Minneapolis 1988, here's the acapella from the 5.1 DTS mix.
 
Zakk said:
Yokohama was shot on BetaCam by a Japanese TV station, it's never existed on film reels! it just shows how much of a drastic difference there is between Yokohama and Wembley and further's the annoyance that we don't have a single true transfer of Michael's best tour at this current moment in time. I firmly believe that Wembley isn't the only show that was recorded on multitracks, the audio on Moonwalker 5.1 DTS is taken from the Minneapolis show..
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The Yokohama comment was a mistake on my part; I recall the Estate saying something about in in a press release. My bad!

You are correct with the Moonwalker comment, though how do we know if the entire Minneapolis show was captured on multitrack? It isn't that ridiculous to suggest that Michael/Sony/whoever controlled the funding only paid for that one song to be recorded as such. Until it is confirmed that Minneapolis was captured in full on multitrack, I won't get my hopes up. And I would suggest you do the same.
 
AlwaysThere said:
You are correct with the Moonwalker comment, though how do we know if the entire Minneapolis show was captured on multitrack? It isn't that ridiculous to suggest that Michael/Sony/whoever controlled the funding only paid for that one song to be recorded as such. Until it is confirmed that Minneapolis was captured in full on multitrack, I won't get my hopes up. And I would suggest you do the same.
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It wouldn't make sense to record only one song. I'm pretty sure the full concert was recorded like that.
 
AlwaysThere said:
None of us could run the Estate any better. And it amuses me to see people assume that they could.
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WTF?? Any fan could do it better. Not just MJ fan, but music fan in general. I'll go that far and say that everyone with good ears could do it better. John is great (lawyer and businessman) but he sucks in music decisions, maybe he's deaf, who knows. The point is that anyone here would do it better because none of us would release fake tracks and lose half of the fanbase!
 
Yeah I honestly don't believe any self-respecting fan would've shelled out a couple of million dollars for some fake songs. I personally feel that Bubbles could do a better job running MJs estate than Dumb and Dumber have done so far.
 
MattyJam said:
Yeah I honestly don't believe any self-respecting fan would've shelled out a couple of million dollars for some fake songs. I personally feel that Bubbles could do a far better job than Dumb and Dumber have done so far.
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No, not Dumb and Dumber. Just the one with more power (obviously). And he's not dumb, he is business genius, but he may be deaf. Not joking.
 
MattyJam said:
Yeah I honestly don't believe any self-respecting fan would've shelled out a couple of million dollars for some fake songs. I personally feel that Bubbles could do a better job running MJs estate than Dumb and Dumber have done so far.
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Haha, too right lad! i would hear all the unreleased tracks before making any quick decisions.. just because they thought he recorded a full 12 track album in 2007 doesn't mean they should rush to conclusions.. did they even think to hear them before handing them over to Teddy Riley??? i would have released the first album as 'Xscape' in 2011 with 13 song's.. some from 'Michael' some from the follow up.. not including all the best recording's of course.. a mixture of 70% complete demo's & some very strong tracks like CGYWOM
 
OnirMJ said:
No, not Dumb and Dumber. Just the one more power (obviously). And he's not dumb, he is business genius, but he may be deaf. Not joking.
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The Cascio fiasco was a cock-up of such collosal proportions that I really do have to question their intellect.

If Michael could've forseen what the two John's were going to do with his unreleased music he never would've left these two clowns in charge. Michael would roll in his grave at the disgrace that is the "Michael" album.

What other artist in the history of popular music has fake songs recorded by a soundalike on an official album? Apart from Milli Vanilli.
 
Galactus123 said:
It wouldn't make sense to record only one song. I'm pretty sure the full concert was recorded like that.
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Exactly, and there's some great footage from APOM & MITM also.. not to mention the close up shots by Patrick Kelley in the snippet of 'BAD'!
 
MattyJam said:
The Cascio fiasco was a cock-up of such collosal proportions that I really do have to question their intellect.

If Michael could've forseen what the two John's were going to do with his unreleased music he never would've left these two clowns in charge. Michael would roll in his grave at the disgrace that is the "Michael" album.

What other artist in the history of popular music has fake songs recorded by a soundalike on an official album? Apart from Milli Vanilli.
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Yeah, I agree. But don't involve McClain in this. He was against those songs from day 1. And he probably still is. But he was overpowered, because the decision was, I guess, 50% on Sony Music and 50% on the Estate, so McClain only had 25% in the decision making. Although I don't like the majority of stuff he produced for Michael, he can't be blamed for "Cascio fiasco". I actually respect him for doing what he did, I just wish he was more vocal and went public about it.
 
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