[Discussion] Sexual Abuse Claims Against MJ Estate - Robson/ Safechuck/ Doe

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

today, there is a new "bombshell" article on RadarOnline
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Great ?
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

More like crab shell evidence. The "bombshell" part for me is how Ron Zonen is still salty
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Plenty of evidence but never used in trial in 2005
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Plenty of evidence but never used in trial in 2005


No one ever ask him that question. Not like hey did not need all the help in the world
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I guess radar in zone and all amd zonan all but forgot about the trial
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

We have already discussed this, pminton. It has nothing to do with fans. There was a shortage of judges at another court and he was moved. It happens.

I has totally forgot thanks.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Can the Radar online story be copied over here so they don't get a lot of hits or is that not allowed? Is this something for the Robson case?
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

They made a story based on a motion from 2005 asking to admit the seized erotic materials. No need to copy Radar's wording, they simply argue the seized materials during the search shows that MJ is a pedophile. The link to the document is here : http://radaronline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/mj-docs.pdf

We already know that Robson had asked for the files from the 93 and 05. And we know the discovery is going on. So it is safe to assume that the discovery is happening, perhaps motions about it is being filed as well (as we just discussed). Radar seems to be writing a story based on old documents that are making the rounds again.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Motions are not evidence of anything, certainly not those of Sneddon. Who can forget when he included in a motion that they seized images of semi naked boys with Mj and the images turned out to be those of 3T photo shoot with MJ. He deliberately twisted everything in his motions but eventually everything was exposed in the defense motions and under cross. But I don't understand why a link to radar's article is posted but no need to post the content here.what purpose does this serve but that of radar's?
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Who can forget when he included in a motion that they seized images of semi naked boys with Mj and the images turned out to be those of 3T photo shoot with MJ.

3T photos are mentioned in this motion /seized evidence list.

But I don't understand why a link to radar's article is posted but no need to post the content here.what purpose does this serve but that of radar's?

Not a link to the radar article. Direct Link to the pdf file. So article isn't getting hits. and there is no need to post the hateful article content here. Documents should suffice. If you or someone is willing to screencap and post 88 pages and/or download and upload the document somewhere else we can remove/change the link.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

It is the same motion? lol ignore it then, that was their best and it was refuted by MEZ.

is it the same motion in which he claimed they seized a book of pornographic material that has pics of nude men and woman and included photos of "boys". Under cross, the book turned out to be for a renewed photographers who sent his profile to MJ including photo shoots he made of many celebrities including Liz Taylor. That book of sexual material had Liz Taylor's photo and the boys were the Jackson 5. That's how manupilative Sneddon was.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

^^

It's 88 pages. It has the motion asking to admit the seized erotic material. It also has a search list. Listing the items by number and explain each item and some even have have photos. Doing a quick scroll I have seen mention of 5 semi nude photos labelled 3T.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I am not going to waste my time reading a article that is a bunch of lies. Oh to be a fly on the wall i would love to know how Wade lawyers will explain how in 2005 Wade defend Michael and now he is claim that he was abuse by Michael for 7 years unreal.



I tell you the Estate really need to come over and look at this thread there is tons of evidences here. Wade own words are going to comeback and bit him in his butt he better get out now while he can because i do not see this getting pass summary judgement if it does the legal system has gone crazy.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Yeah I remember it. Many of the books were untouched still in sealed cardboxes and were not even tested for finger prints. Some were of ancient Romans displaying "nude" men and woman. They were desperate, desperate enough to seize a Financial Times's magazine because it had Mohamad Al Fayed's telephone number on the cover. The very knowledgable and bright police officers thought Mohamad al Fayed could have been one of the conspirators to abduct the Arvizos His name indicated that !! Bright and intelligent lol
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Simply just pick up stuff because it had nude photos wow. Sense when is that a crime. If it was anybody else no problem but because it was Michael Jackson it was not normal this world is sad we live in.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I ran through it. Most of it is the prosecution's document from 2005 of the items that were seized. Most of them has nude adult women or some men. How is that evidence of pedophilia I will never know. They were all shown to the jury in 2005, so these are not secret either. But Radar Online has long stopped to be an independent reporter of the case. They clearly severe as a mouthpiece for Robson and his lawyers now.

The document is weird also because it has handwritten notes on it, like prosecutor's phone numbers and also notes like this:

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LOL @ "Are you scared yet?" being some sexual code message. It's a line from Ghosts dumb asses. The pic is clearly some official material (Hollywood type background, cameras, search lights) - something to do with Ghosts. The prosecution had a way to make innocent material out to be creepy, but it wasn't even introduced to the court in 2005 by, it was found to be so "significant".

I find it weird that this doc has such handwritten notes on it. The original 2005 prosecution doc didn't have these notes. Was it directly leaked to Radar Online by Robson's lawyers for a smear fest again, because I doubt this is how a document got submitted to court?
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I find it weird that this doc has such handwritten notes on it. The original 2005 prosecution doc didn't have these notes. Was it directly linked to Radar Online by Robson's lawyers for a smear fest again, because I doubt this is how a document got submitted to court?

I think Robson lawyers got the documents from law enforcement/ DA. Neverland search was the one of the first documents they asked for back in 2014. I believe Judge said they could get the Neverland search documents at the end of 2014. It seems to have some handwritten notes on it. Most interesting was "Zonen retired, wants to talk". Given Zonen retired in 2011, I'm thinking those handwritten notes are done by Robson's lawyers.

So either they gave the documents to Radar, or as we discussed there are some discovery motions are happening and these are added as exhibits (for example asking for more information or a deposition based on these).
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

You can find all of those books on Amazon. The Fourth Sex: Adolescent Extremes.

Omnivorous and indefatigable, suggestible but independent, adolescents don't want to be balanced. They love extremes of everything from fashion and art to music and the Internet. Observed and studied by experts of all kinds, their behavior monitored by psychologists, educators, and marketing executives, adolescents represent a decisive and increasingly valuable segment of the buying public. They adore and consume trendy clothes and brand-new bands; they must be cool regardless of the cost. And adults turn to them more and more for clues on how to remain forever young and hip. The Fourth Sex turns a critical, illustrated spotlight on adolescence, a territory of transition crisscrossed by the most varied creative energies. A series of iconographic materials begins in the 1960s and moves up to the present, revealing clothes, behavior patterns, novels, and visual artworks created or inspired by the transnational tribe that are teenagers. Excerpted authors include David Foster Wallace, Arata Isozaki, Philip Roth, William Golding, J.G. Ballard, Beavis & Butthead, Jim Carroll, Stephen King, Vladimir Nabokov, Douglas Coupland, Dick Hebdige, Bret Easton Ellis, and Dave Eggers. Represented artists include Vanessa Beecroft, Raymond Pettibon, Mike Kelley, Elizabeth Peyton, Karen Kilimnik, Charles Ray, Takashi Murakami, Larry Clark, Rineke Dijkstra, Paul McCarthy, Richard Prince, Gilbert & George, Gavin Turk, and Richard Billingham. And modeled fashion and lifestyle designers include Malcolm MacLaren, Paco Rabanne, Benetton, Veronique Branquinho, Comme des Gar ons, Stssy, Coca-Cola, PlayStation, Diesel, Katherine Hamnett, and David Sims. The book's shifting, politically incorrect graphic style gives form and color to all the contradictions and ambiguities of an unhappy age that we never cease to remember with nostalgia and the occasional twinge of pain. Published in association with Fondazione Pitti Immagine Discovery.

https://www.amazon.com/Fourth-Sex-Jake-Chapman/dp/8881584042

Cronos

This book documents Pere Fomrguera's Chronos project, in which he took subjects whose ages ranged from two to seventy-five at the project's beginning, and photographed them once a month over a ten-year period.

https://www.amazon.com/Cronos-Pere-Formiguera/dp/8495273349

Kelly Klein: Underworld: https://www.amazon.com/Underworld-Kelly-Klein/dp/0091808596

Simen Johan: Room to Play: https://www.amazon.com/Room-Play-Simen-Johan/dp/1931885214

And so on and so forth. You can see a full survey of what was found here, and also the context of it: http://michaeljacksonallegations.co...aterial-found-in-michael-jacksons-possession/
 
And lol at Radar Online blocking out the crotch area on photos that are not actually explicit, trying to imply that they are. RadarOnline's version:

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Actual photo:


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BTW, the photo is from a book that deals with the life and artistic work of James Bidgood. The Amazon description of the book:

James Bidgood is an American artist living and working in New York City. His artistic output has embraced a number of media and disciplines, including music, set and window design, and drag performance. In time his interests led him to photography and film and it is for this work that he is most widely known. Highly recognizable, his photographs are distinguished by an aesthetic of high fantasy and camp. His work which was inspired by an early interest in Florenz Ziegfeld, Folies Bergère, and George Quaintance has, in turn, served as important inspiration for a slew of artists including Pierre et Gilles and David LaChapelle. In the late 1950s Bidgood attended Parsons The New School for Design. Bidgood directed the 1971 film Pink Narcissus, a dialogue-free fantasy centered around a young and often naked man. The film took seven years to make, and Bidgood built all the sets and filmed the entire piece in his tiny apartment. He later removed his name from the film because he felt editors had changed his original vision. Consequently, the film bore the word “Anonymous” for the director’s credit, and it was misattributed to other directors such as Andy Warhol for many years. Pink Narcissus was re-released in 2003 by Strand Releasing.
 
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These books are always what haters are going on about. Think about it. Art photo books found in the context of a HUGE collection of all kinds of art photography books and mostly about adults are their best evidence. Totally legal books that anyone can buy on Amazon or a book store - and many of which are in the Library of Congress - are their best evidence. A guy who had a huge collection of art photography books and who was an avid student of art photography having such books stored in cardboard boxes along with all type of other art books is their best evidence.

And they are really trying to twist a line from Ghosts into evidence of child abuse now? OMG. How low are they willing to sink for that money?
It's just pathetic and desperate.

I wonder what is going on in court that they felt the need to suddenly stir it in the media again.

The majority of these books were found in big cardboard boxes among hundreds and thousands of art and photography books in the downstairs area of his bedroom, others were found in Jackson’s libraries, others were sent in to Jackson by photographers who had worked or were seeking to work with Jackson or had been sent in by fans, and the prosecution would admit they could not tell if Jackson had even seen or opened many of them. Jackson owned over a million books, much of them in storage, and there were about 10,000 books in total in the areas of Jackson’s home where the Santa Barbara police had focused their search. District Attorney Thomas Sneddon would attempt to downplay the number of books Jackson owned [Sneddon closing statement], but their own detectives would testify that there had been thousands of books in the areas that they had searched and that it had not been possible to count them all. [testimony: Detective Steve Robel, 15th March 2005, Detective Janet Williams, etc]


According to people who knew Jackson, he was a “prolific” “voracious” reader who would frequently spend thousands of dollars at a time in bookstores, here is a list of other books Jackson owned: Michael Jackson’s Favorite Books. In their 2014 book “Remember the Time: Protecting Michael Jackson In His Final Days” two of his bodyguards Bill Whitfield and Javon Beard wrote the following about Jackson’s love for books:

Javon: That’s how he filled all those hours by himself: books. He’d read anything and everything he could get his hands on. History. Science. Art. There were so many trips to Barnes & Noble. It was almost a weekly thing. He would go into bookstores and drop five thousand dollars like he was buying a pack of gum. At one point, he actually bought a bookstore— I’m talking about an entire bookstore. He paid cash for it. Bill: It was on his way back from Tokyo, during those couple days he spent in L.A. He went to visit this used bookstore. It had a lot of rare books from the personal libraries of some pretty famous people, Hollywood stars. These were books that Humphrey Bogart had signed, books that Ingrid Bergman had signed. He asked the owner how much it would take to buy all of his books. The owner didn’t take him seriously. So he made an offer of $ 100,000. Said he’d pay cash on the spot. Couple weeks after he got back from L.A., this U-Haul filled with all these books showed up at the house in Vegas.
Jackson also had an extensive interest in photography and had done so since he was a child.
CBS executive Ray Newton spoke about having met Jackson in 1979 and discovering how well versed Jackson’s love for photography was back then:

“About an hour later we picked up the professional photographer who was coming with us to radio. The photographer gets in the front seat of the limo says hello and then starts to assemble his camera. Once his camera is assembled he points it at me and Michael in the back seat of the limo. I instruct him not to shoot us so Michael can relax. Looking back, that would be a cool photo to have now but I was looking out for Michael’s well-being. Michael sees the camera and starts this deep photography discussion. I was in the discussion for about a minute then it got so deep that I just dropped out and that’s when the photographer looked at me and I looked at him with the looks saying check this out – Michael Jackson is knee deep in photography discourse. I asked Michael if he was a photographer and he said “No, I just like photography!!!”. So Michael continues engaging in this very deep photography conversation with the photographer where he mentions something that the photographer said he needed to look into further. This went on for about 5 minutes, and the only thing that stopped that topic was that the photographer said something that Michael didn’t know and Michael got quiet. Let me translate how deep Michael’s photography discussion was: imagine if someone says in the middle of a general conversation – pataflaflas swiss 6 accented parafliddle lesson 25 around the set groove. You would not only have to be a drummer but a drummer with not just a knowledge of rudiments but an advanced knowledge of rudiments that one can apply and play around the drumset and make them groove to know what that person was talking about.”
Jackson would also use photography books as the inspiration for some of his costumes. Michael’s long time guitarist Jennifer Batten said her HIStory outfit had been inspired by something someone had shown him in an S&M book:
“Somebody had shown Michael an art book that was kind of S&M based and all the paintings looked really beautiful. So he had that in mind but when it came to real life it wasn’t too beautiful anymore,” she laughs. “I just had to remind myself that it was all about the theatre, you know? It’s not just about the music.”​
Photographer Todd Gray who worked with Jackson from 1979-1982 said of Jackson in his book Before He Was King:

“When Michael did find time to relax, he loved to leaf through photographic picture books. He would bring his favorite books with him on tour and buy more books while on the road – the bus weighted with an increasing number of boxes as we left each city. The Triumph Tour began in Memphis with no boxes; by the time we got to Dallas, a few days later, I noticed two; then came Houston; and by the time we hit San Antonio, I noticed a score of boxes being loaded onto the bus. He especially loved books on Hollywood glamour from the 1930s, richly illustrated children’s books, and coffee-table books on photography. Michael would usually hole up in the rear of the bus, while the others spent their time together in front. I also preferred the quiet at the back, and I would sit down with him while he was engrossed in a book of Hollywood glamour photographs from the 1930s. Looking at a particularly striking photo, he would say, “This is magic. They don’t make photos like this anymore.” He studied the pose, eyes, make-up, and expression – everything that went into a great glamour photo.
Michael also loved books that showed children from around the world. One day on the bus I remember him saying “I wish I could write a book about the children of the world. I could go to every country and show how everyone on earth is beautiful. I want to go to India and show the poverty and suffering of the children there, and maybe I could help improve the situation. Africa, too, where there is so much starvation and disease. Todd, would you want to do that with me?” I was stunned, both because I wondered how Michael would ever find the time and also that he wanted me to be the photographer. I suggested that he take a look at the photographs of Lewis Hine, the influential photojournalist whose work helped spur the introduction of child labor laws in the early twentieth century.”
After this conversation it seems Michael had looked into Lewis Hine’s work and 30 years later would tell people about it himself, even referencing it in his work. Bernt Capra who worked with Michael before he died on This Is It said in 2009:

“Michael Jackson was very well read and he loved art, and he knew his photography, and he liked this photographer, Lewis Hine, who had been a social worker in the depression era and shot photographs of victims of child labor – four, five, six year olds working in mills and mines. He was also very well known for a collection of photos of the construction of the Empire State Building which are very valuable now. Michael loves this guy and he based “The Way You Make Me Feel” choreography and set design on the photos of the men constructing steel beams as if they were on the top of a skyscraper having a lunch break.”

http://michaeljacksonallegations.co...ial-found-in-michael-jacksons-possession/#art
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I noticed another manipulation in this document. On page 7, there are pics from a book by Larry Clark: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Clark

Problem is a book by Larry Clark was NOT found in MJ's possession. You will not find any reference to such a book in any prosecution document. So it seems Radar is so desperate to sensationalize this that they actually needed to insert pictures from a book that was NOT found in MJ's possession. How pathetic is that? If you have such compelling evidence from everything that was found why do you need to spice it up with pictures from books that were not found in his possession?

PS: Never mind. It seems the book contains pics by many photographers, including clark.

From a reader review:

May 15, 2007 Matthew rated it really liked it
The companion book to the exhibit of the same name I saw in Florence, Italy. "The Fourth Sex" is adolescence (after male, female and homosexual). Mostly photos on the theme, many of installations at the show, though there are some omissions. Artists include Larry Clarke, the Chapman Brothers, Mike Kelley, and a ton of others. The middle signatures are a collection of writings about teenagers, including a Dennis Cooper excerpt, an article about teen cliques, a look at lesbians in rock music, a surprisingly well-written essay by Marilyn Manson about conformity, a page from Laura Palmer's diary, and several articles on the co-opting of teenagers by advertising. All-in-all a great companion to the exhibit and a sometimes disturbing look at the awkwardness and awakening that accompanies becoming an adult.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/859270.The_Fourth_Sex


I guess Marlyin Manson is now a child pornographer. According to Radar Online's standards since he contributed to this book and according to RO it proves MJ was a pedophile.

Pics from the book: https://www.vfiles.com/vfiles/3545
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

another finding.

Page 69 - Jackson files / research notes. Typewritten, talks about "connection between sex addiction and percocet addiction". It has an article (actually blog post) making reference to New York Major Anthony Wiener and Ariel Castro. Ariel Castro caught and tried in 2013.Anthony Weiner scandal was between 2011-2013. Mayoral race referred in the blog post was in 2013. Edited to add: the blog post was posted in August 2013.

In short it seems to be a note added by the Robson/Safechuck lawyers. Seems like they would try to bring the "drug addiction" to argue sex addiction as well.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

what does any of that have to do with statue of limitations?
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

another finding.

Page 69 - Jackson files / research notes. Typewritten, talks about "connection between sex addiction and percocet addiction". It has an article (actually blog post) making reference to New York Major Anthony Wiener and Ariel Castro. Ariel Castro caught and tried in 2013.Anthony Weiner scandal was between 2011-2013. Mayoral race referred in the blog post was in 2013. Edited to add: the blog post was posted in August 2013.

In short it seems to be a note added by the Robson/Safechuck lawyers. Seems like they would try to bring the "drug addiction" to argue sex addiction as well.

Oh yes, I noticed that too. It just sounds desperate. Did MJ ever take Precocet at all? He was dependent on Demerol, not Precocet. BTW, I remember from court documents in 2005 that the Prosecution tried to play the drug angle as well (only with Demerol). Their argument was "how stoned MJ was when he abused those kids?" It was pathetic as well and the Judge rightfully ruled out any reference to drugs.

Here is the prosecution's pathetic attempt to bring in Demerol.

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The Defense's reply.

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It seems to me they are trying to follow the 2005 prosecution's playbook with a lot of distracting and irrelevant evidence and hope that something will be enough to prejudice a civil trial jury against MJ.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

what does any of that have to do with statue of limitations?

That will probably be brought up during summary judgment. But right now they are prepping like the trial is going to happen. Case can get dismissed at summary judgment due to many reasons - including time limitations, lack of evidence for any and all claims etc. But if the case or any parts of it survive summary judgment, the trial will start in a 1-2 months after summary judgment. So all discovery needs to happen like the case is going to trial. After summary judgment, there wouldn't be any time for discovery. After summary judgment, it would be all about motion to allow or limit certain elements, information.
 
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Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Thanks Ivy. Lets throw in everything but the sink and see what sticks
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

yeah so without needing to read 88 pages.. has anyone already been through the whole thing and can give us a summary? I looked at an article that kind of said stuff like "Room to Play" and explained a pic etc.. and various mentionings,.. but what really is being shown/said?
 
KOPV;4152630 said:
yeah so without needing to read 88 pages.. has anyone already been through the whole thing and can give us a summary? I looked at an article that kind of said stuff like "Room to Play" and explained a pic etc.. and various mentionings,.. but what really is being shown/said?

It's just various old documents from the prosecution in 2005 thrown together. A list of the art photo books that were found and some handwritten and Google searched lame theories by Robson's lawyers (eg. Precocet). And Radar Online desperately trying to paint those art books that everyone can buy in a book store "child porn".

Re. Room to Play. It's surrealistic art photography.

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Book review

“The power and pathos of Johan’s images springs from his intuitions about the texture of childhood experience and from his method. He works in collage, the technique at the heart of Surrealism. Collage frees him to walk the world with his camera and receive its impossible permissions. Something ordinary will strike him — a driveway, an abandoned house by the side of the road, a woman’s cheek – and he will shoot it, or sample it digitally if it comes from another source, and file it in his electronic unconscious (the computer). Children, dolls, and the peculiar constructions at the heart of his photographs (Dolls stuffed with meat and bird corpses, among others) Johan usually photographs in his studio. How he assembles these elements into digital tableaus is the mystery, and the process of adding, subtracting and recombining can be lengthy. “I don’t finish quickly.” he has remarked. Discards are strewn along his digital highway. ~Lyle Rexer”

The book is in the United States’ Library of Congress: http://lccn.loc.gov/2004297659

I guess they keep "child porn".

Photographer Simen Johan on his own work:
My photographs are composites of multiple-image fragments that I digitally manipulate and combine, including both images that I have photographed myself and found images. By combining different elements, my objective is to create artificial scenarios that appear vaguely familiar and produce numerous associations. I want to evoke a sense of familiarity that will seduce the viewer into allowing his or her own experience, imagination, and understanding of existing popular imagery to become tools for interpreting my work.


These are the things Radar Online is trying to criminalize. Shame on them.
 
Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson / James Safechuck file claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Did MJ ever take Precocet at all?

Oh I see there is a mention in the prosecution's document of a Precocet prescription they found, so Robson's lawyers are trying to turn that small bit into evidence of a sex addiction. I also see they underlined any doctor's name in the document, so it does look like they try to the drag the drug angle into it somehow. Just desperate, desperate stuff. LOL.
 
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