[Discussion] Sexual Abuse Claims Against MJ Estate - Robson/ Safechuck/ Doe

[#MJforever57]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Nov 6 was suppose be about the statute of limitations and why Wade and his lawyers feel this does not apply to them. Wade has not been able to prove anything trying to get the Estate to answer to questions that their do not know. These questions that their still want the Estate to answer like it was mention if it was done in the probate court where the Estate has deny it already why repeat in the civil case. And by the way if you deny that does not mean you know you are deny it because you do not know how clear can you be.



Wade and his lawyers are just fishing imo like it was mention their are throwing stuff on the wall to see what will stick so far nothing has stick so i hope on Dec 16 that this judge will go on and dismiss this case because Wade and his lawyers are going around in circle right now their do not have a case imo.

 

[#MJforever57]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

The moment I read the headline I thought the case got thrown out of the court for good, lol. Now, with questions related to sexual acts getting withdrawn atleast we won't have a media circus with graphic headlines which I am sure Wade's teams were actually aiming for. All we have left is questions related to other matters. This case is now completely one-sided. The focus is on Wade's desperate attempt to sue a billion dollar estate. Wade has already lost the case, in a way.

Me too the Estate did not need to answer those questions anyway their were not there. In the bold that how i see it too. Wade and his lawyers did not focus on what their were suppose to be focusing on their want the Estate to answer questions that imo their could not answer and can only deny.

Did not stick to the wall.

 

[#MJforever57]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I've been thinking about it too whether it's to trick the Estate into something. Like: Estate says they are not in the position to say anything about what supposedly happened between MJ and Robson behind closed doors. But if they deny the abuse and these acts then Robson can say: "if you deny then you take the position of claiming to know what happened behind closed doors". I can't see where such an argument could lead them though (and I doubt the Judge would like that kind of argument - it's a very unfair). The Companies and Estate's position is obviously that they deny it based on what MJ said and and based on what Wade also said until his recent turnaround and based on lack of evidence otherwise etc. They do not claim to deny it because of being with MJ and Robson in the room. The bottom line is here that Robson needs to prove that MJ's companies knew or had reasons to know that Robson was supposedly being abused behind closed doors. None of these desperate arguments would prove any such thing. Robson claims he never told anyone until 2012 and only MJ and he knew about it. That's his own claim. So how were these companies and certain people supposed to know? Doesn't make sense.

This is how i see it too Wade own words are coming back to haunt his like he said only him and Michael knew about the so call abuse the Estate has nothing to do with it all their can do is deny it because their were not there plain and simple.

 

[#MJforever57]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

What else was discussed?

 

[Gold Pants Girl]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I've seen some fans celebrating thinking Robson is retracting some of his claims :doh:

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I've seen some fans celebrating thinking Robson is retracting some of his claims :doh:

They need to learn to read.

 

[Gold Pants Girl]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Yeah really, especially since these fans think they are experts in this case and engage haters like Mike Par, but usually don't understand any court documents. I don't think they were too happy when I explained yesterday's proceedings to them.

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Yeah really, especially since these fans think they are experts in this case and engage haters like Mike Par, but usually don't understand any court documents. I don't think they were too happy when I explained yesterday's proceedings to them.

Not that Par understands the court docs. Either that or he deliberately misinterprets them. I have seen that from him as well.

 

[ivy]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Ivy, do we get any court documents from yesterdays hearing?

only if this resulted in a judge ruling / order. Such rulings/ orders get filed with the court. But it's impossible to give a timeline as it could take anywhere between a day or a month.

Certainly more issues were discussed and argued?

What else was discussed?

probably more was discussed but we wouldn't know what unless - a ruling is added to system - copy of the transcripts added to the system or - we buy the transcripts for the hearing

I've seen some fans celebrating thinking Robson is retracting some of his claims :doh:

They need to learn to read.

It's a complex matter with multiple hearings in probate and civil court. Plus media isn't really helping with their misleading/wrong headlines and content. So it's understandable people are confused.

 

[MJresearcher]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Not that Par understands the court docs. Either that or he deliberately misinterprets them. I have seen that from him as well.

Plus MJfacts, like when they thought the estate wanted to settle the case because of a checked box. They managed to get themselves excited and jump the gun as usual.

 

[#MJforever57]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

The media good for that misleading you will not get the true from them anyway.

This case has become a waste of time imo like it was mention this case is one sided the Estate has prove their case Wade and his lawyers have yet to bring forth any prove to back up their claim the statute of limitations does apply to them imo the reasons their are using does not make any sense and because their miss every deadline by right this case should have been dismiss on day one.

 

[barbee0715]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Thinking about some of the "Billie Jeans" that showed up to court to file claims after Michael's death-I know there were at least two and maybe there were four-(one I remember in particular, because she was obviously delusional and the media was so busy trying to get their microphones to her mouth, that they weren't listening, and when they finally realized what she was saying, they shut down and ran off to somebody else)I thought that was pretty funny.

Anyway, I know they filed claims, etc. along with a bunch of people who had legit claims-Kai, Dr. Klein, etc. but did any claims come in after the 60 days? And how long did they take to get thrown out?? I remember there was one day that Beckloff denied and threw out a whole slew of claims, but I can't remember the turnaround.
In any case, I don't think it was anywhere near as long as the Wade one. Anyone remember?

 

[8701girl]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Yeah really, especially since these fans think they are experts in this case and engage haters like Mike Par, but usually don't understand any court documents. I don't think they were too happy when I explained yesterday's proceedings to them.

Dont get me started with mike par his crap is something my head doesnt wanna think bout

 

[passy001]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I too think they are playing some sort of delaying tactic with these silly questions.
It is so stupid that it cannot be anything else that delay, and get more tabloids time, maybe the estate offers settlement? Maybe they know that they don't have a case and they dragging their feet before giving up? Who knows.

They should be concentrating to prove why they should be allowed to file late claim, not asking people silly questions. Imo, judge should take care of this in orderly manner, prove or show the clause why you case should go forward, then start asking silly questions if you get green light.

I think I understand now why Robson's lawyers are demanding the executors to complete RFAs. This is the same as deposing the executors, just that it's happening at the demurrer phase. usually deposition happens at the summary judgment phase. more so as deposition is part of the discovery process which can only happen once a case survives the demurrer phase (Ivy please correct me if I'm wrong here).

So to get around this constraint, Robson lawyers are forcing the Estate to complete RFAs. Obviously they know that the estate will deny all the questions accusing MJ and his companies of any wrong doing. But that is besides the point.

Instead the idea is to get just enough discovery information from the executors. Indeed the hope is to find some foul play which they can use to file a cause of action in order to survive the demurrer phase.

it is important to realize that right now, Robson lawyers haven't made any particular claim against MJ companies. That is because they don't have a clue in the first place of what to claim against MJ companies. and they can't just ask the court to do discovery because the rule is that discovery must be for something specific e.g to prove a cause of action, which they don't even have. moreover this can only happen when all the requirements for filing a claim have been met. for instance, there must be a cause for action, which Robson has failed to submit so long.

The RFAs give Robson lawyers a legal basis to fish around during the demurrer phase. They are hoping that they can use RFAs information from the executors against MJ companies or the estate. remember they are not just asking yes or no questions. in some cases they are asking for details as well. and this explains why the estate has made some discovery and as a result asked the court for a delay so they can study the discovery information and eventually answer some of the questions in the RFAs. This is to make sure that all questions are answered based on the bast possible facts. so Robson cannot turn around and accuse the executors of fraud or lying or whatever else.

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Double post.

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

^ I think basically yes, it's fishing and I also think that they want discovery so desperately now to be able to see all the material out there (search material, documents, depositions, testimonies, police interviews etc.) so that they do not make any steps that would turn out to be fatal to their case. For example, if they claim something now but there are depositions, police interviews etc. out there that would utterly destroy that claim - and they don't want to risk that, so they want to see what is out there first and they will tailor their allegations around that.

The whole situation is absurd when you think about it. They sue, but they do not know why and how. So they ask for information to help them to sue for something. Crazy. One would think first you have a case and that is why you sue and not the other way around: first you sue and then you want information to create a case about why you sue.

more so as deposition is part of the discovery process which can only happen once a case survives the demurrer phase (Ivy please correct me if I'm wrong here).

Wasn't Robson deposed though? I think in February he was deposed by the Estate. But of course he is the Plaintiff who filed the lawsuit, so maybe that's different. I think the reason why he cannot depose the Executors now is not because this is the demurrer phase but because he has not made an allegation against them yet. He implied he is trying to go there - for example, they mentioned Branca being a secretary of MJJP, but he was unable to make a viable allegation against him yet. So I think that's why they can't depose him now.

and they can't just ask the court to do discovery because the rule is that discovery must be for something specific e.g to prove a cause of action, which they don't even have. moreover this can only happen when all the requirements for filing a claim have been met. for instance, there must be a cause for action, which Robson has failed to submit so long.

The Court has already given them discovery. They did not need to claim a cause of action first. They did not even need to state what they are looking for.

 

[#MJforever57]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

^ I think basically yes, it's fishing and I also think that they want discovery so desperately now to be able to see all the material out there (search material, documents, depositions, testimonies, police interviews etc.) so that they do not make any steps that would turn out to be fatal to their case. For example, if they claim something now but there are depositions, police interviews etc. out there that would utterly destroy that claim - and they don't want to risk that, so they want to see what is out there first and they will tailor their allegations around that.

The whole situation is absurd when you think about it. They sue, but they do not know why and how. So they ask for information to help them to sue for something. Crazy. One would think first you have a case and that is why you sue and not the other way around: first you sue and then you want information to create a case about why you sue.



The Court has already given them discovery. They did not need to claim a cause of action first. They did not even need to state what they are looking for.

Respect77 it is all in your post right here Wade and his lawyers do not have a case their do not even know why their are sue MJ. In the bold that why i say that.




Respect you have this posts twice.

 

[#MJforever57]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I think I understand now why Robson's lawyers are demanding the executors to complete RFAs. This is the same as deposing the executors, just that it's happening at the demurrer phase. usually deposition happens at the summary judgment phase. more so as deposition is part of the discovery process which can only happen once a case survives the demurrer phase (Ivy please correct me if I'm wrong here).

So to get around this constraint, Robson lawyers are forcing the Estate to complete RFAs. Obviously they know that the estate will deny all the questions accusing MJ and his companies of any wrong doing. But that is besides the point.

Instead the idea is to get just enough discovery information from the executors. Indeed the hope is to find some foul play which they can use to file a cause of action in order to survive the demurrer phase.

it is important to realize that right now, Robson lawyers haven't made any particular claim against MJ companies. That is because they don't have a clue in the first place of what to claim against MJ companies. and they can't just ask the court to do discovery because the rule is that discovery must be for something specific e.g to prove a cause of action, which they don't even have. moreover this can only happen when all the requirements for filing a claim have been met. for instance, there must be a cause for action, which Robson has failed to submit so long.

The RFAs give Robson lawyers a legal basis to fish around during the demurrer phase. They are hoping that they can use RFAs information from the executors against MJ companies or the estate. remember they are not just asking yes or no questions. in some cases they are asking for details as well. and this explains why the estate has made some discovery and as a result asked the court for a delay so they can study the discovery information and eventually answer some of the questions in the RFAs. This is to make sure that all questions are answered based on the bast possible facts. so Robson cannot turn around and accuse the executors of fraud or lying or whatever else.

That why this is call fishing around Wade and his lawyers do not even have a clue of what their are looking for just like Respect77 said in her post you have to have a case first to sue not the other way around sue and then go and build your case what are you suing MJ for does not make any sense at all.


The Estate answering those RFAs questions really will not matter at all because the Estate will deny them anyway and it is not what Wade and his lawyers want to hear their what the Estate to come out and say that MJ abuse him and their knew and did nothing about it. Their are really waste their time.

 

[passy001]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

^ I think basically yes, it's fishing and I also think that they want discovery so desperately now to be able to see all the material out there (search material, documents, depositions, testimonies, police interviews etc.) so that they do not make any steps that would turn out to be fatal to their case. For example, if they claim something now but there are depositions, police interviews etc. out there that would utterly destroy that claim - and they don't want to risk that, so they want to see what is out there first and they will tailor their allegations around that.

I have a different take on this. The reason Robson's lawyers are into this fishing expedition is because they want to find out if there is some foul play they can use as a cause for action. so far they have made some vague claims against mj companies which is not enough to get the case going forward. plus they have added MJ, a deceased person, to the suit. I don't think for one second that this was an accident. Robson lawyers are not stupid. they knew exactly what they were doing. they did this with the intention of forcing the RFAs to the executors. This will force the executors to do discovery (on some matters) that will be shared with them. discovery which would not otherwise be accessible by them. See this as a game of chest.

The whole situation is absurd when you think about it. They sue, but they do not know why and how. So they ask for information to help them to sue for something. Crazy. One would think first you have a case and that is why you sue and not the other way around: first you sue and then you want information to create a case about why you sue.

yes, on the surface it looks absurd, especially for a layman like me. but in reality, they are merely exploiting the loopholes of the law. Those RFAs are a legal mean to force discovery even though they do not have a claim against MJ companies. same with MJ being added to the suit even though he is a deceased person. this allows them to force discovery through RFAs on what MJ did or did not do. this why Robson lawyers refuse to take MJ off the suit so far. it's not that they don;t know they can't sue MJ as a person. It's simply for tactical reasons, especially around discovery.

Wasn't Robson deposed though? I think in February he was deposed by the Estate. But of course he is the Plaintiff who filed the lawsuit, so maybe that's different. I think the reason why he cannot depose the Executors now is not because this is the demurrer phase but because he has not made an allegation against them yet. He implied he is trying to go there - for example, they mentioned Branca being a secretary of MJJP, but he was unable to make a viable allegation against him yet. So I think that's why they can't depose him now.

yes, that is the part where I'm also not sure. hence I have asked Ivy for correction/confirmation.

The Court has already given them discovery. They did not need to claim a cause of action first.

That was at the probate level and in connection with the Nevy search to support their motion for Equitable Estoppel. Remember, there are two actions: one at the probate and the other one at the civil court.

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

That was at the probate level and in connection with the Nevy search to support their motion for Equitable Estoppel. Remember, there are two actions: one at the probate and the other one at the civil court.

I think the discovery was given to them in both the probate and civil case and it isn't only about the Neverland search. The discovery issue was discussed, for example, at the October 1 hearing and that was all about the civil lawusit. They argued that they need it to be able to make a claim against the companies. For example, when Marzano talked about Branca, Staikos and Sherman being in this and that position at MJ's companies she said that they would need the discovery to further establish this (and I guess to see how they could link these people to their allegations).

I have a different take on this. The reason Robson's lawyers are into this fishing expedition is because they want to find out if there is some foul play they can use as a cause for action. so far they have made some vague claims against mj companies which is not enough to get the case going forward. plus they have added MJ, a deceased person, to the suit. I don't think for one second that this was an accident. Robson lawyers are not stupid. they knew exactly what they were doing. they did this with the intention of forcing the RFAs to the executors. This will force the executors to do discovery (on some matters) that will be shared with them. discovery which would not otherwise be accessible by them. See this as a game of chest.

I don't think it's a different take. When I said it's a case of fishing that's basically what I meant too. That they are looking for something that they can use. Be it "foul play" as you put it, or something else that they can use to build their case. I just added another possible reason which is that IMO they also want to avoid making a grave mistake in alleging something that then may be easily debunked. I think it does not have to be only one reason.

What you say about the RFAs forcing the executors to do more discovery and also forcing them to share it with Robson - that's a good point. For example, there is those 300 boxes that was mentioned in the papers.

 

[#MJforever57]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Question was these 300 boxes apart of the Nl discovery or was these boxes that Estate just came across?

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Question was these 300 boxes apart of the Nl discovery or was these boxes that Estate just came across?

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...tate/page573?p=4055529&viewfull=1#post4055529

 

[#MJforever57]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...tate/page573?p=4055529&viewfull=1#post4055529

Thank you Respect77 you are on it.

I still believe there is nothing in there that will really help Wade case that is imo and this fishing is just a waste of time Wade and his lawyers have not been able to prove one thing yet that makes any sense their have been all over the place with this case to see what will work, Having the Estate to answer these RFAs questions is a waste of time too imo when their know the Estate is going to deny them then Wade and his lawyers are going to say their know something and their are not telling the true.

Statute of limitations i do not see how their can get around this either i really do not see any foul play here imo if Wade and his lawyers really feel that there is something there that will help their case i do not know what it is we just have to wait and see.



One things both side agree and that is you can't sue a dead man so maybe on Dec 16 the judge will decide to dismiss MJ and the companies The Estate is who Wade want to sue anyway.

 

[passy001]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I think the discovery was given to them in both the probate and civil case and it isn't only about the Neverland search. The discovery issue was discussed, for example, at the October 1 hearing and that was all about the civil lawusit. They argued that they need it to be able to make a claim against the companies. For example, when Marzano talked about Branca, Staikos and Sherman being in this and that position at MJ's companies she said that they would need the discovery to further establish this (and I guess to see how they could link these people to their allegations).

The October hearing was about 2 estate demurrers and motion to compel the executors to answers the RFAs. That hearing had nothing to do with discovery. Robson lawyers refused to remove MJ as a party because they felt removing could compromise their discovery tactics. the probate court granted discovery specific to the Nevy search so Robson lawyers can file their motion for equitable estopel.

I don't think it's a different take. When I said it's a case of fishing that's basically what I meant too. That they are looking for something that they can use. Be it "foul play" as you put it, or something else that they can use to build their case. I just added another possible reason which is that IMO they also want to avoid making a grave mistake in alleging something that then may be easily debunked. I think it does not have to be only one reason.

It's a different take because the issue is not about avoiding making a mistake. it's more about looking for a reason to sue. Hence i used the term 'foul play'.

What you say about the RFAs forcing the executors to do more discovery and also forcing them to share it with Robson - that's a good point. For example, there is those 300 boxes that was mentioned in the papers.

This goes back to the point i have been trying to make. Robson lawyers are not stupid. They know that they can't file a lawsuit without a cause of action. nor can they sue a dead person. they know that perfectly. but they file this so they could issue RFAs to executors on specific issues, forcing them to gain access to discovery material they would normally have no legal basis to ask.

In short, this was the game plan since day 1.

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

The October hearing was about 2 estate demurrers and motion to compel the executors to answers the RFAs. That hearing had nothing to do with discovery.

Have you read the transcript? Discovery WAS discussed. It was the first issue they discussed: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...tate/page563?p=4052001&viewfull=1#post4052001

It's a different take because the issue is not about avoiding making a mistake. it's more about looking for a reason to sue. Hence i used the term 'foul play'.

This goes back to the point i have been trying to make. Robson lawyers are not stupid. They know that they can't file a lawsuit without a cause of action. nor can they sue a dead person. they know that perfectly. but they file this so they could issue RFAs to executors on specific issues, forcing them to gain access to discovery material they would normally have no legal basis to ask.

In short, this was the game plan since day 1.

No one said that Robsons lawyers are stupid, but at the end of the day we all are only speculating about why they are doing what they are doing. Like Ivy said we should probably know more about legal nuances to understand some of their moves better.

BTW, from this recent court documents, the RFAs were already granted and answered in the probate court case. This recent discussion was only about the RFAs in the civil case.

 

[passy001]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Have you read the transcript? Discovery WAS discussed. It was the first issue they discussed: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...tate/page563?p=4052001&viewfull=1#post4052001

Thank you for the link.

from your notes:

Robson's lawyer: they feel to establish equitable estoppel they need to bring the court's attention to "more than just what happened to Wade".

This is where I'm getting confused. i'm not sure how equitable estopel is relevant in the civil action. it's not like they are facing statue of limitation issues here.

Even if discussed, as your notes pointed out discovery has to be about something specific. and because Robson lawyers fail to provide any specifics, that issue became moot.

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

^ I don't claim to understand it. LOL. There's a lot of mixing together of the civil case and the probate case even in the discussion on Oct 1., so it's confusing about what belongs to which process.

Yes, I think you are right the equitable estoppel problem should be relevant in the probate case to circumvent the 60 says limitations of PC 9103. I have no idea how the Chandler or any other former allegations would be relevant to that but the Judge gave them discovery nevertheless (despite of him also noting he did not feel former allegations were relevant).

ETA: I was wondering about the whole equitable estoppel issue here: http://www.mjjcommunity.com/forum/t...tate/page570?p=4055063&viewfull=1#post4055063
I just do not get it how it would apply to him.

ETA2: In the civil case discovery is said to be relevant by Robson to be allowed to search for things which would put them under CCP 340.1(b)2 somehow (the whole companies knew or should have known but turned a blind eye thing).

 

[InvincibleMJ]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I'm sorry I'm cutting the discussion but can anyone please explain what's the proccess of discovery and why does WR lawyers are said to be eager to get more of it? Shouldn't it be something you do before you file a lawsuit?

 

[HIStory]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

I'm sorry I'm cutting the discussion but can anyone please explain what's the proccess of discovery and why does WR lawyers are said to be eager to get more of it? Shouldn't it be something you do before you file a lawsuit?

Well, since the judge allowed it it seems it's allowed at this stage as well. He probably allowed it because Robson argued they needed it for their equitable estoppel argument/against demurrer.

 

[#MJforever57]

Re: [Discussion] Wade Robson files claim of sexual abuse against MJ-Estate

Imo Wade is not entitle to equitable estopped none if this apply to him Wade is just trying to get around the statute of limitations and trying to give a reason why he did not file.


There are three laws at play.

Probate Code 9103

- having to file within 60 days of getting knowledge about abuse, the resulting injury and the administration of the Estate.

CCP 366.2

- When a person dies all other time limitations of running issues go out of the window, there is a one year period within a claimant has to file.

And CCP 340.1

- 26 years of age and a 3 year period after getting knowledge about abuse, the resulting injury in case of companies which knew or had a reason to know