Controversial MJ Documentary Leaving Neverland [GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD]

[ManBehindTheMirrOr - Dona]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

Can someone please upload the beautiful short video which was posted above on twitter to youtube???

 

[La74]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

At Harvard Tomas Mesereau said he had people who were willing to testify under oath that Jordan Chandler had told them he was not molested. According to an old post the name of one of those people is Josephine Zohny. I copied that old post into the open letter to Jordan Chandler thread. In the old post there are links refering to a list and a twitter and blog but none of the links are working anymore. Does anyone have any information about the other ones of those people?

Copy from an old post

Quote Originally Posted by respect77 View Post

Yes, Evan Chandler was bipolar. Explains a lot of things in his irrational behaviour....

A girl who went to school together with Jordan is Josephine Zohny. She has blogs, she is on Twitter too ( http://twitter.com/jzohny ). She is one to whom Jordan said Michael never did anything to him. You can find her name at the end of this document that lists the defense's potential witnesses: http://www.sbscpublicaccess.org/docs...mlimexcltw.pdf

Had Jordan come to the stand she would have been called in to testify about what Jordan told her.

 

[myosotis]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

I've just seen some information from someone else who watched the film at Sundance, but says they 'left after 2 hours' ('the film was 4 hours long, but I couldn't do it'), maybe because this person had more films they wanted to see. But it does give me hope that people will get bored and turn this thing off. Apparently '25 people' left before this viewer did.

This person said they were a big MJ fan but the film 'did make them wonder'. I didn't get the feeling that this person knew any of the facts of the trial, and so the only MJ info. they had (about the boys) was from the film. I worry that this film is filling an 'information vacuum', and that the general public really have nothing to counter it with, in their minds. The Estate can say that these cases have been thrown out of court but the general public just don't know why, or about all the conflicts in the so-called evidence.

This person mentioned that one of the boys (Safechuck?) pulled out 'a box of rings' and said that he'd been given one for each episode of abuse. That sounds a powerful visual image, but interestingly this viewer did not really believe that story, because 'why would you keep them?'

(and I would add- if you have a reminder, how can you NOT remember / know BEFORE Mj died, that you were 'abused'). Also wonder how Safechuck's mum never knew about this 'ring collection!' - aside of course from the fact that it never existed.)

It's probably not feasible, but I feel that this film deserves some kind of 'press advertising campaign' from the Estate, putting the opposing facts in the public domain. The press are mostly not picking up the 'Estate' arguments, and if they do, they always write about the film and effectively advertise it as the end of their article. If the Estate can't get the word out in press releases, then they maybe need to buy their own advertising space (online and in print )- with a 'facts you were not meant to know' kind of headline? (A bit like a political campaign).

 

[dmehta]

I've just seen some information from someone else who watched the film at Sundance, but says they 'left after 2 hours' ('the film was 4 hours long, but I couldn't do it'), maybe because this person had more films they wanted to see. But it does give me hope that people will get bored and turn this thing off. Apparently '25 people' left before this viewer did.

This person said they were a big MJ fan but the film 'did make them wonder'. I didn't get the feeling that this person knew any of the facts of the trial, and so the only MJ info. they had (about the boys) was from the film. I worry that this film is filling an 'information vacuum', and that the general public really have nothing to counter it with, in their minds. The Estate can say that these cases have been thrown out of court but the general public just don't know why, or about all the conflicts in the so-called evidence.

This person mentioned that one of the boys (Safechuck?) pulled out 'a box of rings' and said that he'd been given one for each episode of abuse. That sounds a powerful visual image, but interestingly this viewer did not really believe that story, because 'why would you keep them?'

“It did make them wonder” - of course it would. If someone is on camera for 4 hours describing alleged sexual acts that MJ performed on him as a child, it would make any uninformed person wonder. That’s the damage here.

Re Safechuck and the rings, again this mock wedding ceremony and ring story was apparently pulled from Victor Gutierrez’s book. Snd yes, why would he keep the rings?!

Dan Reed has deliberately gone graphic here with this film. They’ve done it for a reason.

 

[elusive moonwalker]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

At Harvard Tomas Mesereau said he had people who were willing to testify under oath that Jordan Chandler had told them he was not molested. According to an old post the name of one of those people is Josephine Zohny. I copied that old post into the open letter to Jordan Chandler thread. In the old post there are links refering to a list and a twitter and blog but none of the links are working anymore. Does anyone have any information about the other ones of those people?

Copy from an old post

Quote Originally Posted by respect77 View Post

Yes, Evan Chandler was bipolar. Explains a lot of things in his irrational behaviour....

A girl who went to school together with Jordan is Josephine Zohny. She has blogs, she is on Twitter too ( http://twitter.com/jzohny ). She is one to whom Jordan said Michael never did anything to him. You can find her name at the end of this document that lists the defense's potential witnesses: http://www.sbscpublicaccess.org/docs...mlimexcltw.pdf

Had Jordan come to the stand she would have been called in to testify about what Jordan told her.

There was an asian guy (chinese etc origin) who was friends with jordan at uni etc who was photographed at the time. If i remember right he was another who was going to testify

 

[MJTruth]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

I'm now starting to wonder whether A&E dropped this documentary series because they heard about the documentary that was eventually funded by Channel4/HBO.
I have no doubt that because this is part of the Robson/Safechuck PR strategy that they were shopping this to networks, NOT the other way around. I know Dan Reed explained it differently but I don't trust one word he says - he's been caught in numerous lies already.

 

[MJTruth]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

I've said before that the MJ Estate need to go hard at this documentary. they have nothing to lose as far as I'm concerned. If successful, this documentary will ruin the MJ money train anyway.

I suggested they should purchase air time before, during, and even after the documentary denouncing it, not that I think Channel 4 would sell it to them. Another option is a media campaign. BUT trouble is that advertises the show itself. It's a minefield. the MJ Estate are in a very tough position.

TV shows are streamed online long after the air date, so even if they launch a campaign AFTER it first airs, they still effecivtely advertise the on demand version of the show. then of course there are the online pirated copies that will never go away.


right now too many people are simply unaware that there is another side to this story, and once they see the documentary many won't give it the time of day anyway - I certainly wouldn't watch a documentary defending Gary Glitter or Jimmy Saville - so they can't wait too long to respond. Taj's documentary will be too late to help and it can't undo the damage anyway.


They could do with some influntial media outlets "in their pocket" but no doubt any attempt to secure that kind of help would be unsuccessful.

The MJ Estate could potentially employ "influencers" in the same way HBO/C4 have but I doubt they'd have much influence. After all, if people are ignoring fans with facts, why would they listen to influencers?

No, the MJ need assistance from a well respected US TV host/journalist who is willing to stand up for MJ, but I guess there aren't any.

 

[KOPV]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

I wish I knew more about Dan Reed. I'd like to know if hes been accused in the past for faking stories or if any of his previous docs have been called put for false information..

 

[MJTruth]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

You'd have to Google it.
A few people questioned his "paedophile Hunters" documentary but nothing substantial.


The thing with this LN issue is that it is SO blatantly one-sided and yet nobody cares. Have you seen the video where somebody asks him if he considered interviewing anybody with a different story and he provides many words but NO answer to the question at all?? It's a dead giveaway that he didn't want to provide any counter-evidence in the documentary AND that he knows he can't justify it. He tried desperately hard to talk around it without admitting it is one-sided propaganda piece. I wonder why nobody in the media picked up on it.

Then factor in the lies that HE has told during interviews and the LN Q&A and his conduct in all of this is truly shocking. At first I gave him some credit by assuming he had been duped but the more he speaks the more I'm confident he did this KNOWINGLY.

for example, on the one hand he claims to have thoroughly researched the allegations and yet also dismisses the fans' objections as "non-factual". Well that just doesn't hold water.

First he deliberately didn't interview anybody who would contradict the 'victims' stories, so how can he say he thoroughly researched?? It makes no sense at all.

IF he had done his research he would KNOW that the fans' objections are based on actual legal documents. Actual video of Wade. Actual knowledge of the MJWML book. Actual knowledge of the timeline.

His dismissal of fans' objections proves he cares nothing about the truth.

 

[MJTruth]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

I'm so gutted there weren't a group from the fan community at the Q&As to ask really challenging questions.

 

[Soundmind]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

People who attended were invited. Everything was planned so no one challenge them.

 

[terrell]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

You'd have to Google it.
A few people questioned his "paedophile Hunters" documentary but nothing substantial.


The thing with this LN issue is that it is SO blatantly one-sided and yet nobody cares. Have you seen the video where somebody asks him if he considered interviewing anybody with a different story and he provides many words but NO answer to the question at all?? It's a dead giveaway that he didn't want to provide any counter-evidence in the documentary AND that he knows he can't justify it. He tried desperately hard to talk around it without admitting it is one-sided propaganda piece. I wonder why nobody in the media picked up on it.

Then factor in the lies that HE has told during interviews and the LN Q&A and his conduct in all of this is truly shocking. At first I gave him some credit by assuming he had been duped but the more he speaks the more I'm confident he did this KNOWINGLY.

for example, on the one hand he claims to have thoroughly researched the allegations and yet also dismisses the fans' objections as "non-factual". Well that just doesn't hold water.

First he deliberately didn't interview anybody who would contradict the 'victims' stories, so how can he say he thoroughly researched?? It makes no sense at all.

IF he had done his research he would KNOW that the fans' objections are based on actual legal documents. Actual video of Wade. Actual knowledge of the MJWML book. Actual knowledge of the timeline.

His dismissal of fans' objections proves he cares nothing about the truth.

I keep telling you all when this trash comes out, it will be dissected by other outlets. Believe me, the media will have to pick up on it. Just morning even Kelly Raspberry on a show here said "these documentaries can make anyone look they way they want to look". Fans need to keep doing what we are doing, the family needs to be prepared. Believe me, this is no put out a doc, makes claims, and everyone runs to you. MJ has plenty of evidence to back his innocent compare to anyone else. I do not know about the UK but in America it is going to be dugged into if it grows. People overall are not stupid but we focus on the haters. Look how everyone run to Jussie Smollett, now everyone is questioning him if he really was attack. Yes, people react in a moment but then they say "wait a minute, something is not adding up"

 

[terrell]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

And let me add this: HBO and even this Dan fool know this is a lie. HBO would not even meet with the Estate. Why? Because they can not come face to face with the Estate in showing this trash they know is a lie but they will to get $$$$. If you truly believed something, you would meet with them an talk face to face especially a subject like this but what do they keep saying "watch the film". They may even know many people wont believe that trash (only haters who are going to hate no matter what) but they will have made their $$$. Dan Reed turned down talking to USATODAY. hmmmmm? I wonder why since he has mostly been talking to trash media.

 

[KOPV]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

I personally dont believe HBO KNOWS it's a lie but Dan 100% knows. I think HBO executives simply do not know enough about the allegations to have an opinion and when you wave this much drama in their faces, all they say is $dollar signs$.. After they saw the doc complete (unaware of the actual facts) they were probably actually moved by the doc and just think. THIS IS HUGE!

The money is too big and loud to hear the estate, fans and logic out.

 

[Glanni]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

where is Wade now? I am wondering if this whole circus makes him and his family happy. there will be lots of money coming if this "docu" is sold international.

rot in hell, wade. what the f*ck went wrong with you. how can you even look into the mirror anymore.

 

[KOPV]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

where is Wade now? I am wondering if this whole circus makes him and his family happy. there will be lots of money coming if this "docu" is sold international.

rot in hell, wade. what the f*ck went wrong with you. how can you even look into the mirror anymore.

I think wade is in over his head. I think the stress and anxiety of his lies is breaking him.. he is always nervous, figity, and stressed in every recent clipping of him. Hes in it too deep to back down now. He really F***ed himself.

 

[ozemouze]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

And let me add this: HBO and even this Dan fool know this is a lie. HBO would not even meet with the Estate. Why? Because they can not come face to face with the Estate in showing this trash they know is a lie but they will to get $$$$.

No doubt about that at this point. But they will still air it. And that's really scary.

 

[Erandi]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

where is Wade now? I am wondering if this whole circus makes him and his family happy. there will be lots of money coming if this "docu" is sold international.

rot in hell, wade. what the f*ck went wrong with you. how can you even look into the mirror anymore.

I think that, sooner or later, his conscience will catch up with him. I don't know why, but I have a feeling that his future will turn out very sombre, everything will go downhill for him. And he did this to himself...I can understand Jordy to a certain degree, say he was a kid and his parents brainwashed him into doing it, but Wade and the other idiot are adults who invented this whole story themselves. Will the money they get out of this satisfy them in the end?!

 

[terrell]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

I think that, sooner or later, his conscience will catch up with him. I don't know why, but I have a feeling that his future will turn out very sombre, everything will go downhill for him. And he did this to himself...I can understand Jordy to a certain degree, say he was a kid and his parents brainwashed him into doing it, but Wade and the other idiot are adults who invented this whole story themselves. Will the money they get out of this satisfy them in the end?!

Even Jordan now. He is a GROWN MAN and set a wrong back to right.

 

[PoP]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

where is Wade now? I am wondering if this whole circus makes him and his family happy. there will be lots of money coming if this "docu" is sold international.

rot in hell, wade. what the f*ck went wrong with you. how can you even look into the mirror anymore.

That backstabbing MFing son of a b can burn and rot in hell and at the same time I just wanna bash him real good!!!

 

[KOPV]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

Guys I'm having a conversation with this annoying person on YouTube, I am trying to explain the illogical thought behind Wade's xlaim..

He claims both that he defended Michael out of not coming to terms with what happened yet he says he didnt lie in 05.. he also claims that he said what he KNEW at the time.

I'm trying to find quick sources that highlight that. Do any of you have that?

 

[terrell]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

Guys I'm having a conversation with this annoying person on YouTube, I am trying to explain the illogical thought behind Wade's xlaim..

He claims both that he defended Michael out of not coming to terms with what happened yet he says he didnt lie in 05.. he also claims that he said what he KNEW at the time.

I'm trying to find quick sources that highlight that. Do any of you have that?

That does not make no @#$ sense. Wade has DEFENDED Mike on MANY occations so that fool you are talking to can stop that lie. When u have a whole world targeting u and asking u all the time about the issue, u know what going on. Truth is WADE WAS NEVER ABUSED. what some people wont say to try to prove a lie. Also, when people have not come to term with something, they are NOT going to testify TWICE UNDER OATH for a person. If anyone say they can, tell them to give you the name of the case, what city, so I can pull it up. (they wont find It because it does not happen.

 

[dmehta]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

UK people. Let's start emailing execs at Channel 4. Not in any belief that this will get pulled, but they have to hear factual reasons why people like us think airing this documentary is disgraceful.

[h=3]Channel 4[/h]
Ms Alex Mahon	Chief Executive
Email	amahon@channel4.co.uk

emercedes@channel4.com
tporter@channel4.co.uk
IKatz@channel4.co.uk
viewerenquiries@channel4.co.uk

 

[Staffordshire Bullterrier]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

I personally dont believe HBO KNOWS it's a lie but Dan 100% knows. I think HBO executives simply do not know enough about the allegations to have an opinion and when you wave this much drama in their faces, all they say is $dollar signs$.. After they saw the doc complete (unaware of the actual facts) they were probably actually moved by the doc and just think. THIS IS HUGE!

The money is too big and loud to hear the estate, fans and logic out.

If HBO actually has read the ten page letter logic should tell them that that things really don't add up and that any claims by these guys should not be taken at face value. But I doubt they actually read the thing at all.

 

[terrell]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

If HBO actually has read the ten page letter logic should tell them that that things really don't add up and that any claims by these guys should not be taken at face value. But I doubt they actually read the thing at all.

Like I said, they know it a lie but they do not care because they are hoping it brings in $$$$ Neflix is whipping them.

 

[ozemouze]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

Guys I'm having a conversation with this annoying person on YouTube, I am trying to explain the illogical thought behind Wade's xlaim..

He claims both that he defended Michael out of not coming to terms with what happened yet he says he didnt lie in 05.. he also claims that he said what he KNEW at the time.

One could say it's a case of 'abuse victim living in denial in order to cope' but only if he started accusing someone who was never accused before. It won't work with MJ, who was already portrayed by prosecutors (and media) as a criminal. So Robson had plenty of time to reevaluate his experiences, even as and adult (including during cross-examination) if any of them could be interpreted as something sinister.

Also it's obvious that the idea of 'abusing children is wrong' couldn't be a novelty for him suddenly in 2012, as at least during the criminal trial he must have started to wonder it must be something bad after all if one can go to jail because of it.

One more thing: it's worth reminding Robson was a witness for the defense. If MJ did something wrong to him it would have been an enourmous risk to call him to testfify. What if during cross-examination by the prosecution he suddenly 'came to terms' with what happened to him?

Of course one can refuse any explanation and always twist things further to fit an agenda, but if this particular person is open-minded he/she must acknowledge at some point that all these discrepancies emerging again and again are simply because it's a big web of lies.

 

[PYT2904]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

UK people. Let's start emailing execs at Channel 4. Not in any belief that this will get pulled, but they have to hear factual reasons why people like us think airing this documentary is disgraceful.

[h=3]Channel 4[/h]
Ms Alex Mahon	Chief Executive
Email	amahon@channel4.co.uk

emercedes@channel4.com
tporter@channel4.co.uk
IKatz@channel4.co.uk
viewerenquiries@channel4.co.uk

Good idea. Please list the emails of the Chief Operating Officer of HBO in the US and execs of the channels in other countries that are planning to air this so we can contact them as well.

 

[terrell]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

One could say it's a case of 'abuse victim living in denial in order to cope' but only if he started accusing someone who was never accused before. It won't work with MJ, who was already portrayed by prosecutors (and media) as a criminal. So Robson had plenty of time to reevaluate his experiences, even as and adult (including during cross-examination) if any of them could be interpreted as something sinister.

Also it's obvious that the idea of 'abusing children is wrong' couldn't be a novelty for him suddenly in 2012, as at least during the criminal trial he must have started to wonder it must be something bad after all if one can go to jail because of it.

One more thing: it's worth reminding Robson was a witness for the defense. If MJ did something wrong to him it would have been an enourmous risk to call him to testfify. What if during cross-examination by the prosecution he suddenly 'came to terms' with what happened to him?

Of course one can refuse any explanation and always twist things further to fit an agenda, but if this particular person is open-minded he/she must acknowledge at some point that all these discrepancies emerging again and again are simply because it's a big web of lies.

And what u just laid out is what people with "common sense" and who are "fair" will see it. That is just like the "repress memory" is clearly a lie in a case like this. How can u have repress memory when u were asked, the accused was always talked about, a trial, etc about these accusation and had to response. It makes no sense. Then u want to sue for money. And you are right about the "cross examine". Look how TMez under cross examine made people admit their lies or proved their lies even those who went on tabloid shows and paper but admitting lying to those papers.

 

[KOPV]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

One could say it's a case of 'abuse victim living in denial in order to cope' but only if he started accusing someone who was never accused before. It won't work with MJ, who was already portrayed by prosecutors (and media) as a criminal. So Robson had plenty of time to reevaluate his experiences, even as and adult (including during cross-examination) if any of them could be interpreted as something sinister.

Also it's obvious that the idea of 'abusing children is wrong' couldn't be a novelty for him suddenly in 2012, as at least during the criminal trial he must have started to wonder it must be something bad after all if one can go to jail because of it.

One more thing: it's worth reminding Robson was a witness for the defense. If MJ did something wrong to him it would have been an enourmous risk to call him to testfify. What if during cross-examination by the prosecution he suddenly 'came to terms' with what happened to him?

Of course one can refuse any explanation and always twist things further to fit an agenda, but if this particular person is open-minded he/she must acknowledge at some point that all these discrepancies emerging again and again are simply because it's a big web of lies.

Yes well of course that's the argument, that a victim could just not have come to term with..

My argument is an individual cannot be "unaware" and have "no perspective on it" yet be "coached" and live in "fear"..

Humans dont feel pain over events they are oblivious to.. he had no perspective and was unaware that it was "abuse "until 2012.

So what was Michael coaching him about?

 

[ozemouze]

Re: Sundance Festival 2019 - Controversial MJ Documentary "Leaving Neverland"

And what u just laid out is what people with "common sense" and who are "fair" will see it.

Yes, if only people used common sense and tried to be fair we wouldn't be here now.

I don't expect non-fans to read trial transcripts (heck, even fans shouldn't be reading them, it's absurd, that should be a journalist's job), but anyone could use some common sense at least. Or there's always the option of not forming an opinion without knowing the facts.

My argument is an individual cannot be "unaware" and have "no perspective on it" yet be "coached" and live in "fear"..

Humans dont feel pain over events they are oblivious to.. he had no perspective and was unaware that it was "abuse "until 2012.

So what was Michael coaching him about?

He has to explain too many contradictions, so ultimately it would make even less sense... You don't even know where to start/what to list when you want to point out the weakness of his story, as there is so many of them.

Oh and thanks for trying to educate people! :flowers: